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Your thoughts on this years symposium

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Just wondering what the masses who attended the symposium in Phx thought about their experience?
This having been my first national symposium I have nothing to compare it to on that level so can't make any comparisons.
One thing i can comment on is how large and expansive the accommodations were compared to the number of people i saw using them.
Big place for the number of people using it.
Correct me if my number is wrong but I believe the attendance figure posted in here was around 1100 attendees???
Only real disappointment I had was I didn't buy a new lathe while i was there.
But I didn't have to worry about not being allowed back into my house when I got back home either .
 

odie

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Just wondering what the masses who attended the symposium in Phx thought about their experience?
This having been my first national symposium I have nothing to compare it to on that level so can't make any comparisons.
One thing i can comment on is how large and expansive the accommodations were compared to the number of people i saw using them.
Big place for the number of people using it.
Correct me if my number is wrong but I believe the attendance figure posted in here was around 1100 attendees???
Only real disappointment I had was I didn't buy a new lathe while i was there.
But I didn't have to worry about not being allowed back into my house when I got back home either .

Ha, ha ! Well Allen....that did make me lol ! :D

If your lathe just isn't cutting it.....a few nights in the dog house just might be worth bring home that nice new lathe! :D

Sorry, I didn't attend, but it sounds like a lot more attendees were expected. Is that what it looked like to you?

I think our country's economic future is very questionable, or I believe that's what a significant number of those who make up the great majority of those who traditionally take up woodturning (over 50) see it. That might account for a little less than expected attendance. Purely a guess, but that's the way I see it......:(

ooc
 
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Ha, ha ! Well Allen....that did make me lol ! :D

If your lathe just isn't cutting it.....a few nights in the dog house just might be worth bring home that nice new lathe! :D

Sorry, I didn't attend, but it sounds like a lot more attendees were expected. Is that what it looked like to you?

I think our country's economic future is very questionable, or I believe that's what a significant number of those who make up the great majority of those who traditionally take up woodturning (over 50) see it. That might account for a little less than expected attendance. Purely a guess, but that's the way I see it......:(

ooc



well i can't comment on the economy of the country nor will speculate on why the masses didn't make it.
one thing that did stand out to me was stuart batty's booth at the trade show. quite a production to say the least.
Odie how are things under "BIG SKY" sure miss not going up there.
 
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I thought it was a great venue -- plenty of space, easy to get around, short walk to the hotel, lots of restaurant choices in walking distance. As far as I could tell, everything ran well. Good selection of presenters.
 
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I thought it was laid out very well and ran very smooth. Trade show was rather small compared to others I have been to. Someone said getting wood into Ariz was tough so almost no wood for sale. Living in Hawaii I dont want for wood though. I was hoping for some new sanding equipment but the folks were not there. I sat in on panels mostly but have seen most of the folks demo before. But had great fun catching up with lots of turners. Also thought the food choices were very good. Compared to a few in the past that the services were almost not there at all this was super. Trent Bosch with his camera instead of a laser and a monitor showing exactly where your tool tip was on the vessel inside was very slick. I also thought Stew Batty had a very elaborate setup. But did not buy a tool from him. We talked about his dad Allan and that was it. Met Doug Thompson for the 1st time. a pricy trip for me but well worth it. Had plenty of beers and conversation.
 
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This was my 5th symposium and it is much like the previous symposiums. The attendance is typical of all that I have been to. The St Paul may have been the largest of the 5 and it was the 25th and the home of the AAW. The facility in Phoenix was not used to the fullest by any means. There were thousand of square feet in the Instant Gallery area and in the Vendor area. Without a doubt it was one of the smallest number of vendors at any of the events I have attended. Yes we did hear that there were problems with the wood. I turn for Carter Products in the vendor area and we brought our own wood and had no problems bringing it in. From a vendor perspective things went better than any of the last 5 symposiums.

I am amazed that so few people take part in the symposium and even the website and forums here. I would like to see more participation at all levels. The AAW is very proud that there are 15,000 members but have the looked to see why. Why is there so little participation. Hope someone can shed light on why less than one percent participation is acceptable
Ron
 

odie

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well i can't comment on the economy of the country nor will speculate on why the masses didn't make it.
one thing that did stand out to me was stuart batty's booth at the trade show. quite a production to say the least.
Odie how are things under "BIG SKY" sure miss not going up there.

Hi Allen.......Montana is a very beautiful state, and lots of outdoorsy activities........but, I'm seeing less of it than I ever did in the past! On the bright side, I'm seeing the walls of my shop more and more! My priorities in life are shifting!;)

Ronald.....only 15,000 AAW members? I think the membership numbers are close to 50,000....aren't they?

ooc
 

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Ronald.....only 15,000 AAW members? I think the membership numbers are close to 50,000....aren't they?

Maybe only in Phil McDonald's dreams. :)

It's a little shy of 15K, I believe. Al can give exact figures, I bet.

But, it depends on how you define close. :rolleyes:
 
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odie

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Maybe only in Phil McDonald's dreams. :)

It's a little shy of 15K, I believe. Al can give exact figures, I bet.

But, it depends on how you define close. :rolleyes:

My own AAW member number is in the 40,000 range.......I suppose we're talking about "active" membership?

ooc
 
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I imagine to be counted one must pay dues or be honorably lifetime member, going to national symposium is not cheap.....it is well worth the money.....there are some very good regional symposiums....they are worth the money also.....national symposium you expect certain standards, the different states adhere to the turning standards but will not have the quantity of demonstators, vendors, or participants in the instant gallery......I enjoy seeing how different states present their symposiums
 

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... the different states adhere to the turning standards but will not have the quantity of demonstators, vendors, or participants in the instant gallery......I enjoy seeing how different states present their symposiums

Well maybe not all regional symposiums, but quantity isn't necessarily a good measure when it's quality that matters. Have you been to SWAT recently?
 
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Bill, I have never attended SWAT....it is on my bucket list of things to do........I have never heard anything negative about it.....sometimes things Texas can be overwhelming
 

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Well maybe not all regional symposiums, but quantity isn't necessarily a good measure when it's quality that matters. Have you been to SWAT recently?

The regionals, including Swat, have the same high quality demonstrators that the AAW has.
It just takes them years to present as many demonstrators as AAW does in one year.
Also the regionals often introduce up and coming demonstrators. Experience demonstrating at regionals is a big plus when applying to demonstrate at the AAW.

SWAT the largest of the regionals offers 6 demonstrations in 10 rotations. That is a lot of choices!
AAW offers 15-16 demonstrations in 11 rotations a whole lot more...

I enjoy the regionals, I enjoy AAW. They are different.

Al
 
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Ronald,

I will only speak for me but life gets in the way of going to the AAW symposium. As a remodeling contractor the summer is my busiest time of year. In addition my wife is a teacher and my kids attend college so summer is the time of year to fit in a family vacation. There simply is no time to go to a AAW symposium.

I am thankful that we have the Rocky Mountain Woodturning Symposium every year so I can attend and see friends. It sometimes amazes me how people take the regional symposiums for granted and don't participate/support them. Again life things may be getting in the way for people but it would be terrible to lose any them around the country. Please support your regional symposiums even if you went to the AAW symposiums.

Final note is I wonder how the turnout would be if it was in four or five locations and rotated every year between them. I know this has been discussed in the past but I feel that the average attendance would increase. Since having our annual symposium (Rocky Mountain Woodturning Symposium) I have created some friendships where now some attendees stay at my home. I think knowing where it is, the venue and creating local friendships would be such an advantage not only for the AAW but attendees as well. I hear the argument that the local clubs members would burn out which I personally think is hockey puck and to my knowledge this has never been tried. I do wish the AAW would stop reinventing the wheel every year in different locations and put some consistency into the venues. I personally believe they would be pleasantly surprised.
 

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Maybe only in Phil McDonald's dreams. :) It's a little shy of 15K, I believe. Al can give exact figures, I bet. But, it depends on how you define close. :rolleyes:
Bill,

In Dec 2013 there were 15072 including associates(family members)

Below is a map of regions containing 70% of the membership from dec 2013.
You can see clusters of members around the country and one enormous cluster in the east.

The AAW growth is roughly 20% new members each year with 15% non-renewals each year for a net 5%.
Some years are better than others as to new members.

We are close to 16,000 members now.
 

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AAW started in 86 and I joined in 87. Member # 2thou something. 1st symposium in 89. I did Utah in 85 or 6. Here is the kicker. You have to find personal value in being an AAW member. Many members of our local chapter only want to be entertained and dont give a rats backside. They see no value for themselves. The are not going to travel to an event, have no desire to stretch beyond basic turning. And point blank just enjoy being with a few turners at our local chapter meeting. They get coffee and donuts and entertained. We try to have some manner of educational demo or program each meeting. I as one of two demo point folks for the big Island help to bring in outside demo folks. We just had Neil Scobie right after the Phoenix event. Attendance sucked. I have been doing this a long time and am beginning to get burned out that the time and effort to bring in top talent gets so little response. Maybe I have just had a long day as I always back off and keep going. I am one of the 10%. Thats the amount of folks that keep any group going. I like the nuts and bolts that keep a chapter going. I guess its time to go get a beer and not ***** to you kind folks. Will probably feel better about those who dont care in the morning. Well, I wont. But my attitude will be better.
 
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Attendance

"I am amazed that so few people take part in the symposium and even the website and forums here. I would like to see more participation at all levels. The AAW is very proud that there are 15,000 members but have the looked to see why. Why is there so little participation. Hope someone can shed light on why less than one percent participation is acceptable "
Ron[/QUOTE]

Ron, 1100 attendees is over 7% of 15,000, not less than 1%. The reason why attendance was middling is the location. Who wants to go to Phoenix in June?

Pittsburgh will be far bigger because it is a lot cooler in June and there are far more people within good driving distance than for Phoenix.

Malcolm
 

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Pittsburgh will be far bigger because it is a lot cooler in June and there are far more people within good driving distance than for Phoenix.

Malcolm

Malcolm, more important than quantity is opportunity. The symposium could always be held where there is the highest density of members if bragging on high attendance figures was of greatest importance. Every scenario of how to do symposiums has merits as well as disadvantages. Weighing one against another is not a simple thing that can be answered by statistics. I would even imagine that symposiums help stimulate the growth of woodturning in the local region.

I have been in Phoenix in the summer on a few occasions and it was hot outdoors. However, I was indoors most of the time.. The temperature on one trip was near 120° F and I was outdoors several hours and the low humidity made it tolerable so I don't see the temperature outdoors as a factor.
 

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AAW started in 86 and I joined in 87. Member # 2thou something. 1st symposium in 89. I did Utah in 85 or 6. Here is the kicker. You have to find personal value in being an AAW member. Many members of our local chapter only want to be entertained and dont give a rats backside. They see no value for themselves. The are not going to travel to an event, have no desire to stretch beyond basic turning. And point blank just enjoy being with a few turners at our local chapter meeting. They get coffee and donuts and entertained. We try to have some manner of educational demo or program each meeting. I as one of two demo point folks for the big Island help to bring in outside demo folks. We just had Neil Scobie right after the Phoenix event. Attendance sucked. I have been doing this a long time and am beginning to get burned out that the time and effort to bring in top talent gets so little response. Maybe I have just had a long day as I always back off and keep going. I am one of the 10%. Thats the amount of folks that keep any group going. I like the nuts and bolts that keep a chapter going. I guess its time to go get a beer and not ***** to you kind folks. Will probably feel better about those who dont care in the morning. Well, I wont. But my attitude will be better.

As a founding member of the Dallas Area Woodturners, over 10 years ago, I completely agree with your thoughts on this, but that's a whole different conversation
 

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..... I guess its time to go get a beer .....

How was the beer, Kelly?

I think that the things you mentioned are true of almost every kind of organization. We do what we do because of our deep investment in something that becomes a part of our being. At least, that is what my beer told me. :rolleyes:
 

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. The reason why attendance was middling is the location. Who wants to go to Phoenix in June? Pittsburgh will be far bigger because it is a lot cooler in June and there are far more people within good driving distance than for Phoenix. Malcolm

Malcolm,
The predominant reason Phoenix had a small attendance is few people live close enough to drive.
The reason pittsburgh will be large is that close to half the AAW members are within a long days drive.

As far as destination. We and other AAW members took the opportunity to visit the Grand Canyon.
I don't think we will do anything in Pennsylvania afterwards.

I hear it is hot in Waco, Texas. I expect to see see a huge attendance for SWAT.
al
 
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The beer was so tasty I had to have a couple more after the first one. And I slept on it and true to me I mellowed out. Got up this morning ready to do what a man has to do for the day.
In Phoenix I sat in on the chapter meeting. They paid my admission so felt I should show up to the meeting. Almost to a T when the subject of who does the work club reps say about 10%. But its the same 10% year after year. So our club is really trying to pamper our Sec. and web site guru. Its the same guy. Now he is a fellow who has been to AAW symposiums and knows a personal value to himself. But he gets no love so to speak for his great efforts. The board took him to lunch not long back. Actually I instigated the board going to lunch on the clubs dime. We dont get paid for what we do. We take any grief any member ever has. Not many, thank you. And sometimes like my voicing being burned out I decided we deserve a small treat. It actually built up a bit of moral among us. Course it was at the Kona Brewing co. I had iced tea. Cant drink in the middle of the day. Did not prevent a couple of the other board members from enjoying a cold draft brew. It was good fun.
 

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Bill,

In Dec 2013 there were 15072 including associates(family members)

Below is a map of regions containing 70% of the membership from dec 2013.
You can see clusters of members around the country and one enormous cluster in the east.

The AAW growth is roughly 20% new members each year with 15% non-renewals each year for a net 5%.
Some years are better than others as to new members.

We are close to 16,000 members now.

If these numbers are close to the truth, then I guess it's reasonably safe to assume the average new AAW member will come and go in about 5-6 years. I speculate that most of them either lose interest in lathe turning (give up), or have age related issues. (For example, death is an age related issue, but so is arthritis.) I'd say the great majority of new turners are the over fifty bunch......

If that is anywhere near correct, then there is a very large portion of the AAW membership at any given time, who are newbies, or beginners. Well, no wonder there is such a large residual industry specifically targeting lathe turners! This isn't an inexpensive endeavor, and to equip one's self to do it requires a relatively large inventory of expensive tools and equipment......and, much of it is a complete waste of money, until experience overcomes costly experimentation. A zillion people are attempting to sell products to those who want to become good at wood turning......and, it looks like most of the audience just doesn't have enough "stick time" to distinguish between what looks interesting, what might work, and what to reject.

Wood turning is a mirage that hooks a lot of people, giving enthusiasm that they think is the result of success......but, in reality, it's nothing more than lots of sanding. :rolleyes: Almost anyone can put a block of wood on a lathe and come up with something that doesn't look half bad. This makes them dream big, but they have no idea how much learning is required to master all phases of traditional tools. All they know is they did a lot of sanding, came up with something that looks decent, and their enthusiasm went through the roof! For those who have persevered, learned some measurable, and successful amount of tool handling techniques, and know what "sharp" is.....it's pretty easy for them to tell who relies on sandpaper, and who doesn't have to sand very much at all.....and there is a distinct difference when comparing the results of the two. ;)

Well, no wonder the AAW membership is such a big "herd"!.......and, there are those who profit from selling ideas and products to the herd. Some good, some not so good. It's also no wonder at all that so many turners rely on teaching the herd, rather than being creators of their own little universes in their own little one-man shops!

ooc
 
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Can't speak for the other teachers but I do it simply because I remember how hard it was to get past the learning curve on using the tools available. That and it's fun to meet the turners who are almost always great people. I'm not a full time turner so this doesn't apply to me but I remember Binh Pho saying that he loses money teaching. If he stayed home and simply made one piece and sold it he would make more money than he does teaching. The vast majority of teachers fall into one of those two categories. The really high in demand teachers probably do make a profit or it simply could be that they enjoy teaching more than sitting at a booth in a craft fair all weekend hoping it doesn't rain.
Turning is no different than any other hobby. Look at how many accessories you can buy for 1911 pistols or AR style rifles. And back when I was in Archery I'll bet I had 10 different release's, many I made myself. I had 7 bows and who knows how many arrows of every size and wall thickness trying for the perfect group. We all tend to think that the next gadget will make us better and if we have the income we buy it and play with it.
I'm an avid bicyclist and one day I was in a shop looking at high end bicycles and actually rode a few. Man they were sweet. The thought of pedaling that 18lb bicycle up that steep grade that I always have trouble with seemed like a dream come true until I realized that all I had to do was lose 4lbs of my body and I would achieve the same results on that hill. Turning is like that. If you practice enough with a bowl gouge you will get more results than if you spend X number of dollars on the latest fancy tool.
This leads me back to the symposiums. Sure it's great to see the new tools and you can learn some great techniques from the presenters but the best reason to go is simply to meet other turners.
 

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If these numbers are close to the truth, then I guess it's reasonably safe to assume the average new AAW member will come and go in about 5-6 years. I speculate that most of them either lose interest in lathe turning (give up), or have age related issues.

......

Well, no wonder the AAW membership is such a big "herd"!.......and, there are those who profit from selling ideas and products to the herd. Some good, some not so good. It's also no wonder at all that so many turners rely on teaching the herd, rather than being creators of their own little universes in their own little one-man shops! ooc

Hi Odie,
New members that last longer than 3-5 years tend to be members for a long, long time.
A lot of new members drop out in the first few years. I have seen about the same growth patterns with the clubs I have been associated with.
Bill made a similar observation.

I also suspect those who get a quality class or two are more likely to stick with woodturning. Skills make woodturning more enjoyable and productive.

Many professional turners, those who make a living from woodturning, make their income from a combination of art sales, teaching, and tool sales.
The sought after teachers have established themselves as top artists.

To be sure there is money to be made from new turners however the successful tool makers and teachers have a passion for woodturning. Their tools work and their classes produce better turners.

The good turners all get asked to do demonstrations for clubs, regional symposiums, and the AAW symposium. They get invited to teach at the craft schools.
So teaching opportunities abound for the top turners and most have to to turn down teaching to make time for their art work.

We had a Panel at the AAW on classes with Trent Bosch, Jimmy Clewes, and Rudolph Lopez.
I wish you could have attended and heard the passion about teaching as the spoke.

Al
 

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If you practice enough with a bowl gouge you will get more results than if you spend X number of dollars on the latest fancy tool.


Now, there is a little dose of reality from John!

How much can you spend on specialized lathe tools with the latest super advanced tool steel, with the latest flute and Kryo powdered technology?.....and what about all that equipment being offered to keep them sharp? New turners are going to get a rude awakening, if they think a 4,5,6 thousand dollar lathe is going to be the biggest expense.......heck, that's just the "starter kit"! :rolleyes: There is a reason why the standard traditional tools have evolved to the configurations they have......and getting all the latest, greatest, tools isn't a valid sidestep of what tradition has taught us......learning to use those tools are a confirmation of their value, but it takes time, effort, practice and patience to "get it". For some, "getting it", can be something that's taught, but let's not ignore the concept of individual effort and personal will. Teachers can be great, but they can also be an impediment to progress, creating things that need to be "unlearned".

One of my pet peeves is the recent Easywood tools. There is nothing you can do with them that you can't do by grinding traditional scrapers.....and, at that, it isn't cutting.....it's scraping with a forced cutting action, without the need to learn how to sharpen at all. I'm feeling a bit disappointed in some of the lathe tool suppliers for even carrying these tools, because they do more to prevent a solid learning process with tools that actually cut, than anything they promise to do. I guess making money is more important than integrity and a sense of dedication to students who don't care very much about "easy".....they want refinement of results. This is not to acknowledge that some turners really want "easy", and will pay for it, but they will do it at the expense of refinement.

With the current deluge of lathe tools, products, and gadgets being marketed, a new turner would be well ahead of the pack, to understand there is nothing new about what the possibilities are with traditional tools and methods......but realize they can spend themselves into debt, off budget, and still not have as good results! There is no free ride! :rolleyes:

ooc
 

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For some, "getting it", can be something that's taught, but let's not ignore the concept of individual effort and personal will. Teachers can be great, but they can also be an impediment to progress, creating things that need to be "unlearned".
ooc
I don't understand the need to unlearn, unless you are referring to incorrect catch prone technique that some students bring to class
I don't use everything I have learned. I have transitioned to more effective tools and tool use but every once in a while an old technique is the one I need.
Practicing what we learn is essential. It comes down to beads and coves. If you learn to turn beads and coves the rest is easy.

One of my pet peeves is the recent Easywood tools. There is nothing you can do with them that you can't do by grinding traditional scrapers.....and, at that, it isn't cutting.....it's scraping with a forced cutting action, without the need to learn how to sharpen at all. I'm feeling a bit disappointed in some of the lathe tool suppliers for even carrying these tools, because they do more to prevent a solid learning process with tools that actually cut, than anything they promise to do. ooc

Sort of my pet peeve too!

While these tools serve a purpose and have a short learning curve, they create one of the biggest challenges to teachers. Teaching an Easywood turner to use a gouge is often a challenge beyond the challenge of a raw beginner.
 

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Everybody isn't interested in the same thing and it would be foolish to think that just because we love woodturning that everybody ought to feel the same passion if they give it a try. The turnover in woodturning clubs and in the AAW is no different than the turnover in photography clubs or in astronomy clubs -- and either of those can be far more expensive than woodturning. I have a good friend who make really nice furniture and he got interested in turning so that he could make his own table legs and chair rungs. He took a look at bowl turning and yawned. He had already found his passion and turning wasn't it. He does a spindle now and then if he finds it necessary, but it is only a means to an end.
 

odie

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Everybody isn't interested in the same thing and it would be foolish to think that just because we love woodturning that everybody ought to feel the same passion if they give it a try. The turnover in woodturning clubs and in the AAW is no different than the turnover in photography clubs or in astronomy clubs -- and either of those can be far more expensive than woodturning. I have a good friend who make really nice furniture and he got interested in turning so that he could make his own table legs and chair rungs. He took a look at bowl turning and yawned. He had already found his passion and turning wasn't it. He does a spindle now and then if he finds it necessary, but it is only a means to an end.


Of course, Bill......

Passion is not the same for everyone, and that is a good point.....I would have to agree with that. My guess is it's the exception to the rule that someone interested in woodturning, has visions of it being for table legs, or it being supplemental to some other related interest. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I'd say the majority of turners are interested in making things in totality, which are traditionally lathe produced......some will, and obviously do evolve to their own levels of embellishment, where the basis for that embellishment is the lathe, but not necessarily the focal point.

Unless there is disposable income, or wealth, I think it's safe to say that those who invest significant amounts of money, have visions of taking their passion (whatever that level of passion is) to their own personal concept of exceptionalism. It may be casual, or a strong desire, but the vision of creating to a high degree of excellence is probably universal......but, the ability to carry out that vision is not the same between individuals. This is not to ignore that there are some who use lathe turning as nothing more than a social outlet.

I know where I stand on this, and I've seen your post where you've mentioned lathe turning is a part of your being, or something like that......so, we have some commonality in philosophy.....but, I speculate that we have very different individual thoughts on how we will facilitate that within ourselves.

ooc
 
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Bill Boehme

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I have a brother-in-law in Tennessee who describes my interest in woodturning by saying, "Bill got plum eat up by it". :D

My wife translated since I am not fluent in hillbilly by saying that while there isn't an exact translation, it means that I really like it a whole big bunch (well, she's from Tennessee, too).
 
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odie

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I don't understand the need to unlearn, unless you are referring to incorrect catch prone technique that some students bring to class
I don't use everything I have learned. I have transitioned to more effective tools and tool use but every once in a while an old technique is the one I need.
Practicing what we learn is essential. It comes down to beads and coves. If you learn to turn beads and coves the rest is easy.



Sort of my pet peeve too!

While these tools serve a purpose and have a short learning curve, they create one of the biggest challenges to teachers. Teaching an Easywood turner to use a gouge is often a challenge beyond the challenge of a raw beginner.

Hello Al.......

What I mean by "unlearn", is more than just a safety issue. Sure, it's that, but I'm also speaking of techniques and procedures that will produce the best surface quality, or better suited to advance progress. Probably the best and most successful teachers are not as much contributing to these things as do some mentors, makers of amateur videos, advice on forums, etc. These people all mean well, but the unsuspecting will be learning things that are detrimental to progress, of questionable value, or only true to a limited extent.......but are completely unaware of it. This isn't to deny that some of all these sources do put forth good information. These days, because of the advancement in technological methods of passing information by anyone who has an inclination to do so, it leads to an almost overwhelming volume of misinformation. It's all mixed in with the more limited amount of the very good information that is also available....so, how does a new turner know what to avoid? The answer is obvious, and only leads to the conclusion that "unlearning" is more a problem than it ever was.

All of the above is why I've been one that bugs certain people to show us what their results are.....photographic evidence of the results they get, and therefore, some basis for applying that advice. As I've said many times before, "Results are the ONLY thing that count"......and, the only way for casual information to establish real validity, is to see the results that information giver is capable of producing.

You mentioned that a student who uses Easywood tools is a challenge, and more difficult to teach than others.......that rings true for me. I can remember threads some years ago, when you would have thought these tools were a gift from the lathe god, himself!.....very sad, but it goes to show how mesmerizing they must be to those who have just begun to learn about the lathe.



ooc
 
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As I've said many times before, "Results are the ONLY thing that count"......and, the only way for casual information to establish real validity, is to see the results that information giver is capable of producing.

You mentioned that a student who uses Easywood tools is a challenge, and more difficult to teach than others.......that rings true for me. I can remember threads some years ago, when you would have thought these tools were a gift from the lathe god, himself!.....very sad, but it goes to show how mesmerizing they must be to those who have just begun to learn about the lathe.
ooc

Little hard to follow your logic here, Odie.

A> You repeat your mantra about "RESULTS" but then proceed to trash use of Easy Wood Tools which are nothing more than an alternative method to the bowl gouge you are so committed to.

B> I personally use Hunter carbide cutters to turn bowls, especially deep ones, as well as for hollowing jars. Their cuts will match, if not exceed, anything produced by a bowl gouge in certain situations, and I've seen stuff turned with EWT that was impossible to tell what tools were used in the turning phase.

C> Are you abandoning your end-justifies-the-means point of view?
 
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Little hard to follow your logic here, Odie.

A> You repeat your mantra about "RESULTS" but then proceed to trash use of Easy Wood Tools which are nothing more than an alternative method to the bowl gouge you are so committed to.

B> I personally use Hunter carbide cutters to turn bowls, especially deep ones, as well as for hollowing jars. Their cuts will match, if not exceed, anything produced by a bowl gouge in certain situations, and I've seen stuff turned with EWT that was impossible to tell what tools were used in the turning phase.

C> Are you abandoning your end-justifies-the-means point of view?



nothing personal but lets stick to the topic of the thread shall we
this kind of got off topic just a weeeee bit don't you think??
 

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Little hard to follow your logic here, Odie.

A> You repeat your mantra about "RESULTS" but then proceed to trash use of Easy Wood Tools which are nothing more than an alternative method to the bowl gouge you are so committed to.

B> I personally use Hunter carbide cutters to turn bowls, especially deep ones, as well as for hollowing jars. Their cuts will match, if not exceed, anything produced by a bowl gouge in certain situations, and I've seen stuff turned with EWT that was impossible to tell what tools were used in the turning phase.

C> Are you abandoning your end-justifies-the-means point of view?

Hello Mark.......

Your comments are not unexpected.......to the contrary, they are expected. Either you understand the point of.....excellence of surface quality prior to sanding, or you don't........

My "mantra" is what it is, because all the words in the world can't produce excellence in results....only tools to the wood will do that! Altering pure shape as a necessary side effect of sanding, is a rule of thumb, and can't be changed by hope, or will power. Excessive sanding will be necessary, and is the results of imperfect cuts. Perfect cuts require minimal sanding, and there is no similarity between the two. Easywood tools do not have the possibility of producing a cut having the same integrity as traditional tools. You either understand that, or you don't.

I also use Hunter tools with bowls having inward slanting walls. Not in all cases, but there is certainly an advantage up under the lip of the bowl. However, this is because the shearing cut slant of the Hunter cutter is at an angle that isn't possible with a standard bowl gouge......if that weren't so, the cut, using a gouge, would be as good or better than the Hunter tool. That is, unless your bowl gouge isn't as sharp as the Hunter tool. In this limited case, the Easywood tool probably will do just as well as the Hunter tool. This is such a limited application, that I don't see the validity of using this example for general use......only a limited, and very specific use.

How about showing us some photos of your finished deep bowls and jars? I'm sure I'm not the only one who is just a little curious about the results you are getting, and how much sanding you do. Matter of fact, why not have an AAW photo album?

C>......Huh? I'd say the ends are the only thing that really matters......so, my principle remain the same. The ends are the only thing that justifies the means! :D

In the end, as with you and with anyone else, you have the right to have your own opinion, and it's not important whether there is agreement, or disagreement......other readers can decide the content of this discussion for themselves. I'm sure there will be those who subscribe to opposing viewpoints, but it matters not to me......because my "results are the ONLY thing that matters" to me......

ooc


The following pics show some bowls with pronounced inward slanting walls. These most likely would have involved using the Hunter tool inside the upper interior of the walls.
 

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How about showing us some photos of your finished deep bowls and jars? I'm sure I'm not the only one who is just a little curious about the results you are getting, and how much sanding you do. Matter of fact, why not have an AAW photo album?

OK. In process a 12" deep by 14" diameter salad bowl in hard maple.G&S-Bowl-1af.jpg As you can see, the maple developed some small cracks during the drying phase. Having re-turned the outside form with my trusty bowl gouge, I could have employed a long tool rest, etm, and dealt with the inevitable vibration that results from such a rig, but instead mounted my Hunter tools, in the holders I designed and machined Hunter-bent.jpgHunter-2.jpg, in a 3/4" boring bar mounted in the Kobra. This allowed me to bring the finished deep bowl to a precise thickness with the carbide cutters shearing off the maple in lovely fine shavings without my having to use my best GI Joe Kung Fu death grip on the gouge. Sanding of the finished bowl was done starting with 220 grit to remove the faint echoes of the tools' pass over the wood. This was especially important because the maple had been assaulted by several generations of Notice posters who didn't have the courtesy to remove the iron they pounded into the tree the years before. Gail's Nails.jpg I'll leave it to your imagination what those nails would have done to a finely honed bowl gouge.

Hollowing? Let's go to the fragile soft maple 14" deep Box Elder. Outside done, not with the venerable gouge, but rather with the carefully honed heavy skew to so gently refine the faint curve in preparation for the boring bar/Hunter combination to leave the walls at 3/16" all the way to the foot without disturbing the outside profile.

{Keep Reading}
 

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Continued

To Continue with hollowing . .

r Memsahib-1-01.jpg Memsahib got her tall vase even though the wood tuned punky near the bottom and had to be delicately removed to prevent blowing the piece up. Then we can consider Box Elder ginger jars at 12" by 9" Peebles-Walser-final.jpg and 10" by 7" Wilson-Wish-1.jpg. The soft maple must be coaxed to its final thickness and requires a very sharp cutting edge. Yes, I could have been going back and forth to the grinder and the hone with a "regular" tool steel cutter in the boring bar, but the carbide Hunter just kept on peeling those fine shavings that tell me the interior surface would be as expected. If I sand the interior of my jars at all, I do it with a shop-made flap-sanding head using 180 grit paper. Nothing more is needed. Such results would be, for me, impossible using "normal" boring tools.

I will remain open to refinements in the tooling available to us as woodturners. I don't, however, go out and stupidly buy the "next greatest hoogie" that some dude pounds the table with at some vendor show, but I know enough about what I'm doing to be able to filter out the BS. As mentioned, I don't use EWT's. Not because they are poor tools, but rather because they have no particular advantage to me for what I do with a lathe. I don't, however, denigrate them as there are other turners for whom they may present real value.

"There are many paths to follow which end at the same goal. Some longer. Some shorter. Whether one is perceived as superior depends not on the path, but rather the traveler."
 
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