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Bowl steady tips?

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I'm still a novice with the bowl steady, having only used it a dozen times or so on larger, thin bowls over the last several months. I honestly haven't found it helped as well as I had hoped, and I generally make do without. That said, there is a learning curve with everything on the lathe, and maybe I just haven't given it enough time to figure out the nuances of the bowl steady.

I'd love to hear how others are (or aren't) using them. Thanks!
 
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I mainly use the one-way bowl steady for hf.....Position it close to lip as you would a bowl......Sometimes setting up you will need to adjust the height of the two wheels, or it may be that too much pressure is on the form...Both wheels should turn evenly......If really wet wood things can move while at lunch/break/talking-to fido
 

john lucas

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The only time I've needed a bowl steady was on severa 12" diameter Bowl from a board projects that were thin to begin with. instead of a bowl steady I hot glued 4 "flying buttress's" between the bowl outside and the chuck. The sound scared the heck out of me but man did it work. Turned them down to 1/8". I have used a 3 wheel steady rest that I built from wood and inline skate wheels to steady a problem bowl that had what I thought might be a weak tenon. It worked well.
 
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I'm still a novice with the bowl steady, having only used it a dozen times or so on larger, thin bowls over the last several months. I honestly haven't found it helped as well as I had hoped, and I generally make do without. That said, there is a learning curve with everything on the lathe, and maybe I just haven't given it enough time to figure out the nuances of the bowl steady.

I'd love to hear how others are (or aren't) using them. Thanks!

Which one are you using?
 

Bill Boehme

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I've never felt a need for one. On the very large and thin basket illusion pieces that I make, I run the lathe very slow and grip the bowl wearing a heavy leather glove While beading the front and back.. I have my thumb of my left hand against the inside and palm against the outside to balance the force applied by my thumb when beading the inside. It's good that I'm borderline ambidextrous when turning because doing the exterior requires me to do a mirror image swap of what each hand is doing. I feel like the gloved hand provides tactile feedback on how much pressure to apply to stabilize the bowl against flexing. I can't imagine that any bowl steady would be satisfactory for this.
 
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hockenbery

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The steady is often needed on forms much taller than wide.

I've used a steady in HFs don't use one on bowls.

Turning the sidewalls in a stair step pattern so that thicker walls provide support for turning the thin part allows thin walled bowls. If I get a little chatter it is usually caused by too heavy a cut or too much bevel drag.
Sharper tools, lighter cuts, less bevel pressure, using a smaller gouge, increasing lathe speed (if appropriate( all work to reduce chatter.

Size is another variable. A 10" bowl does not present the turning challenges that a 20" bowl will.
Turning a 1/8" thick wall bowl on a 10" bowl requires much less skill than turning a 1/4" wall on a 20" bowl.

A bowl steady is not needed but it can help reduce chatter on larger thin walled bowls if the standard techniques are not eliminating the chatter.

The real key is to eliminate chatter and keep a smooth surface for the bevel to ride on.
A little chatter can be sanded off but its real harm is done to the part of the bowl that is cut using the chatter surface as bevel support. A bevel riding on bumpy chatter surface cannot cut a clean surface and usually cuts a worse one. Bad surfaces beget worse ones....
 

john lucas

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Reducing the pressure you put on the bevel will reduce chatter. Ideally the bevel should just gently glide on the surface as you push the tool. Early on everyone will push the cut which also puts a lot of pressure on the bevel. This can easily create chatter due to the different hardnesses in wood. Stewart Batty's 40/40 grind lets you cut with less pressure on the bevel as a cut that David Ellsworth uses which is with the flute straight up and cutting with the side of the gouge. Either of these puts less pressure against the bowl and helps reduce chatter.
 
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***** instead of a bowl steady I hot glued 4 "flying buttress's" between the bowl outside and the chuck. ***** .

"Flying Buttress" -- I'm having trouble visioning this. Do you have a picture?
 

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Post #1 in a series explaining the key elements of making the Oneway bowl steady work for you........

I am one who uses the Oneway bowl steady extensively, and find that it does, indeed, reduce vibrations......and, I have demonstrated this to myself with, and without the bowl steady on the same piece of wood, with the same tool, used in the same manner, at the same time......no, other variables, other than with, or without the Oneway bowl steady.

For the finest possible cut, you of course, need the sharpest tool possible, and speed is a key factor in achieving that finest cut possible.....with the singular goal of achieving the cleanest cut, with the least amount of sanding required to follow up. Most of you already have your preferred methods of attaining the sharpest tools possible.....and, it really doesn't matter how you get sharp, as long as it's as sharp as your methods can get it.

For the best speed, there is a "sweet spot", and that spot is normally the fastest rpm where there is no vibration when the bowl just spins, no other factors. (edit: I normally use the 1200rpm setting on the step pulleys......there is a point where it could be too fast with faster speeds. see additional posts for clarification.) It takes some effort to learn how to determine just where this ideal speed is, but I'm currently using a combination of very light finger pressure on the bedways, and watching a magnetic bore light with an extended neck and weighted tip mounted on top of my headstock.....all while adjusting the potentiometer. Using these two identifiers, I can bring up the rpm and find the ideal speed for a bowl at that moment in it's evolution. (Many times, adjustments of rpm may be necessary periodically, as you remove weight from your bowl.....so, be very aware of changes in vibration characteristics that are directly related to rpm.)

Now that you've found the ideal speed, and as John Lucas mentioned above......you don't want to be taking big honking cuts.....you want very very light cuts......light as a feather! ;)
(You want to practice this concept throughout your turning, because even for roughing cuts, it absolutely does matter. The least amount of tearout is what's best, and even though it's a roughing cut, ANY tearout is NOT just on the surface. Tearout goes deeper than what you can see on the surface. tearout disrupts the wood fibers under the surface, and that can effect how well the finish will work, IF the fibers that are disrupted extend to where the final surface will be......but, all that is a whole nuther subject! o_O)

Some of the things I'll attempt to explain will be best illustrated with photos, so this will come in subsequent posts.......I'll be BAAAAAAAAK! :D

This is the bore light I spoke of. It will vibrate according to vibrations felt in the lathe. The little spring clip at the end adds just enough weight that it accentuates the felt vibrations.
IMG_2516 - Copy_LI.jpg


ko
 
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Reducing the pressure you put on the bevel will reduce chatter. Ideally the bevel should just gently glide on the surface as you push the tool. Early on everyone will push the cut which also puts a lot of pressure on the bevel. This can easily create chatter due to the different hardnesses in wood. Stewart Batty's 40/40 grind lets you cut with less pressure on the bevel as a cut that David Ellsworth uses which is with the flute straight up and cutting with the side of the gouge. Either of these puts less pressure against the bowl and helps reduce chatter.

Makes good sense--- got a photo of that Batty 40/40 grind?
 
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Tom: Batty has a video on Youtube called "how gouges cut". In that, he shows the profile of his bowl gouge and explains why he likes that profile. It's not for everyone, I suggest.
 
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I regularly use a Oneway bowl steady to stabilize the rim of larger platters (16"+) when I bead them for my "bead weaving illusion" pieces. I only have one of the two wheels make contact with the back of the rim with relatively light pressure and definitely feel like it helps substantially to get nice, even beads compared to no support. On smaller platters, I don't find that the extra support is necessary.
 

odie

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Tom: Batty has a video on Youtube called "how gouges cut". In that, he shows the profile of his bowl gouge and explains why he likes that profile. It's not for everyone, I suggest.
A link would be helpful, please..........
 
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Great thread. Thanks, everyone. These are all great suggestions. I've used most of the suggestions except for Bill's leather glove idea—great idea, thank you, Bill. That's not to suggest I'm any good at thin walled bowls... It's all a matter of practice!

I have used the 40/40 grind to great success in the first inches of a bow, until the steep angle has the shaft almost knocking the rim. It seems like once I'm in that far, it's usually not much of a problem, and switching to a steeper gouge is fine.

I have a few questions, if you can indulge me:

1. Does it makes sense to suggest that wood species that tear out easily (and don't cut as cleanly) are more prone to vibration?

2. Am I right to think that the vibration increases with a longer flat on the bevel? In other words, a relieved bevel heel that wraps around—like the Michaelsen grind—reduces the vibration when cutting the concave interior of a bowl.

3. Are there any outstanding instructors out there who might have more experience in this area?

4. Has anyone noticed some bowls just vibrate more? A small percentage of my thinner bowls appear to have a harmonics issue, much like a bell. Stroke the rim or upper side, and it just sounds different, more resonant. These are the bowls that seem to vibrate most. I've seen this a number of times in bowls 12-14", one bowl doesn't and the next does...wood from the same tree, same approximate thickness. I tend to shape bowls a bit deeper than most. There might be a correlation to the deeper bowls and a steady curve, but I sure don't know. These bowls seem to draw people in a little more, too.
Hmmm....maybe these are the Area 51 bowls, and I need to order Bill's alien action figure to watch over these ones. :)

Thanks again.
 
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Odie, kinda reminds me of how we used to tune up the pick-up truck, turning the distributor cap till the hood vibration was “just right”. I use a laser taped to one of my lights and reference the dancing spot while changing the speed. I’ve noticed I can increase the speed thru the first calm spot and reach a second at a higher speed. I’ve never tried for a third higher speed, not sure if it’s nerves, or just that the second speed is fast enough. Or maybe, Kenny Rogers, “Know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em”…
 

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hockenbery

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1. Does it makes sense to suggest that wood species that tear out easily (and don't cut as cleanly) are more prone to vibration?.

To some extent. A bevel riding on a torn surface is going to vibrate more than a bevel riding on clean cut surface. One of the things that makes returning a dry roughed out bowl easier is having a clean cut surface on the roughout. Returning a bowl with torn grain is much harder that returning one with a smooth cut surface.

.
2. Am I right to think that the vibration increases with a longer flat on the bevel? In other words, a relieved bevel heel that wraps around—like the Michaelsen grind—reduces the vibration when cutting the concave interior of a bowl.
.
. Yes.....
A long bevel has more bevel contact than a short one increases bevel rub which absolutely increases vibration. Grinding the heel off an Ellsworth grind makes a short bevel and less vibration.
The Michaelson grind has a short micro bevel that makes almost no bevel contact and therefore almost no bevel drag.
 

hockenbery

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4. Has anyone noticed some bowls just vibrate more? A small percentage of my thinner bowls appear to have a harmonics issue, much like a bell. Stroke the rim or upper side, and it just sounds different, more resonant. These are the bowls that seem to vibrate most. I've seen this a number of times in bowls 12-14", one bowl doesn't and the next does...wood from the same tree, same approximate thickness. I tend to shape bowls a bit deeper than most. There might be a correlation to the deeper bowls and a steady curve, but I sure don't know. These bowls seem to draw people in a little more, .
A lot of things can cause more vibration. A few are:
Bottom area of one around the chuck is thinner an allows more vibration.
Smaller tenon will have more vibration.
The grain is off center creating widely unbalanced resistance to the cut.
Wood can have different density especially noticeable when half the bowl is punky or half is burl. Or wider growth rings on one side ( this is even grain too)

If I have a too thin bottom it can really slow me down as I have to take smaller cuts all the way through. I get this feedback loop when the cut doesn't feel smooth that says take smaller cuts and smaller cuts until it feels good and stick with that one.
 

Bill Boehme

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  1. I don't think there is a strong correlation between the two.
  2. Vibration increases mainly with tool pressure that can deflect the wood slightly. Of course, thinner wood deflects with less pressure and cutting with a dull tool means more pressure is being applied. I doubt that the width of a bevel is a cause of vibrations.
  3. I would guess that all of the outstanding instructors have expertise in this area.
  4. I haven't noticed that but then I don't turn a lot of bowls. Generally I think that it is pilot error when I get vibration. An exception would be if a flaw exists in the wood.
 

john lucas

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I don't have a photo of the Flying Buttress. What I did was take a piece of cardboard and cut it so it roughly matched the outside of the bowl and was long enough to touch the chuck. When I got the shape right I cut it out of 1/4 plywood and then hot glued it to the bowl in 4 locations.
 

odie

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Odie, kinda reminds me of how we used to tune up the pick-up truck, turning the distributor cap till the hood vibration was “just right”. I use a laser taped to one of my lights and reference the dancing spot while changing the speed. I’ve noticed I can increase the speed thru the first calm spot and reach a second at a higher speed. I’ve never tried for a third higher speed, not sure if it’s nerves, or just that the second speed is fast enough. Or maybe, Kenny Rogers, “Know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em”…

Clifton.......Say, that is an excellent idea with the laser attached to your lamp. I've got to try this myself......thanks.
ko
 

odie

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I’ve noticed I can increase the speed thru the first calm spot and reach a second at a higher speed. I’ve never tried for a third higher speed, not sure if it’s nerves, or just that the second speed is fast enough. Or maybe, Kenny Rogers, “Know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em”…

Exactly right, Clifton.......There is such a thing as too high an rpm that is also without vibration, and this may vary between preferences of one turner and the next. Thanks for pointing that out. (great Kenny Rogers quote, BTW! :D) For me, I do not go above the 1200 rpm belt setting on the pulleys while using the Oneway bowl steady......and more times than not, I find the best vibration free rpm to be somewhere around 750-1000 rpm.
 
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odie

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I regularly use a Oneway bowl steady to stabilize the rim of larger platters (16"+) when I bead them for my "bead weaving illusion" pieces. I only have one of the two wheels make contact with the back of the rim with relatively light pressure and definitely feel like it helps substantially to get nice, even beads compared to no support. On smaller platters, I don't find that the extra support is necessary.

.....and, your "bead weaving illusion" pieces are beautiful, Justin. :D

I have had some fairly small bowls and platters that have benefited from using the OBS (Oneway Bowl Steady), so I don't think I could make the same blanket statement that the extra support is unnecessary. It's true that some do not require the extra support, but some do. I've come to the point that I automatically use the OBS, because it's easier to just throw it on there than run a test to see if it's helping, or not. There is no down side to having the OBS installed if it turns out that it didn't help......:)
 

odie

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There are a number of improvements that can be done to the OBS, and adding a spring to the scissor arms has been an important one. Most bowls are not perfectly round, and if the wheels are locked down, it can be worse than not using the OBS. The spring introduces some additional give-and-take to it, beyond what is available with the cushioning effect of the rubber wheels themselves.

I've also added a wing nut to the scissor locking mechanism.....for ease of use. (I have done a number of alterations that allow me to do all the OBS adjustments without tools......this is a great help, and I'll provide photos and explanations of a few more of these modifications with subsequent posts. :D)

You'll notice the wing nut has some pieces of red 1/4" air line attached to the wings, and a couple of nuts locked to the end of the bolt threads. This allows the wing nut to be opened fully, allowing freedom of movement to the scissor arms. The red airline on the wings catches on the flats of the nuts when I don't intend to lock down the wheels. Therefore, I have the option of not locking down the wheels when I intend to use spring pressure on the wheels......or to lock them down when the bowl is fairly close to perfectly geometrically round.

IMG_2517.JPG
 
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odie

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Odie where you use a spring I use a rubber band. I do mostly natural edge bowls so the OW Steady doesn't work to well with them. NE bowls don't vibrate much.

Fred......

I'm sure not every turner can use my ideas, but I'm equally sure that a few will.

The rubber band should work......as long as it has an equivalent "springy" to it as the spring does! :D

.
 
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Odie, from your "Useful shop gadgets" thread almost two years ago, my post #222 and your post # 223. It is interesting the things that work and stick around...
I use chalk too, and most of the time I can find it. I had a spare laser pointer so made this little contraption, quick and dirty,
just electrical taped the laser to the top my work light. The funny thing is it works a little better then expected. I've used it for bowls and platters,
but also for pinpointing the rim of a natural edge bowl or even a specific area on an eccentric piece. Shoot it across the shop and
it even shows you how much dust is floating in the air.

Good morning!

One drawback to using chalk, is the moment your tool hits it, it's gone! This may not be an issue for some, but from my perspective, it cuts right to the heart of how a fine tool finish is accomplished. It isn't done with a single pass, but multiple very delicate passes.

Here is my laser jig. I primarily use it for interiors of bowls, but could be used on exteriors just as well. This would be a personal preference on my part, but I prefer to use the sharpie/pot scrubber for exterior surfaces.

The articulating arm is made up from a magnetic base used for a dial indicator. It's been modified for quick non-sliding axial adjustments, with a flat steel piece attached to the end for laser pointer. The laser pointer is kept in a dust free plastic case with magnets attached to the bottom. It's stored with the articulating arm on top of the headstock. There is a magnet attached to the laser pointer itself, and this is used to mount it to the steel plate at the end of the articulating arm.

Note: One bit of added benefit to the articulated arm, is it's a great indicator of harmonic vibration due to out of balance pieces of wood. I'm one who doesn't generally do distinctly out of balance turnings, but I do turn the occasional piece that is. While the articulating arm isn't being used, and in the upright position, there are times when it's extremely useful to fine tune the rpm for the least vibration possible.

ko
 
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Odie,

I love your improvements. And thank you for taking the time to share your pictures and thoughts. I've studied your bowl rest pictures before, but now the spring makes sense! I didn't clue into leaving the wheels under spring tension but not locked down. That makes so much, and addresses one of my biggest gripes with the rest.
 

odie

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Odie, from your "Useful shop gadgets" thread almost two years ago, my post #222 and your post # 223. It is interesting the things that work and stick around...

Well now, Clifton.......I thought your suggestion was completely new to me! In my "old age" I've noticed my memory isn't as good as it used to be.......senility, I suppose! o_O I do remember when I was using the laser jig (It's still there in the photograph......right next to the bore light......and, I still use it for another purpose where it works superbly!) Since my post of a few years ago, I've added the bore light, and am finding that it's a better indicator of vibration than the laser pointer jig was. I am going to try out your suggestion of the laser to see if it is better than the bore light.....and, I suspect it might be.

Thank you for your attention to the details! :D

.
 

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Odie,

I love your improvements. And thank you for taking the time to share your pictures and thoughts. I've studied your bowl rest pictures before, but now the spring makes sense! I didn't clue into leaving the wheels under spring tension but not locked down. That makes so much, and addresses one of my biggest gripes with the rest.

Thanks, Zach.......You know, there is a point where a bowl can be so out of round, that using the spring (or locking down the wheels, for that matter) will be an exercise in futility! In other words.....these improvements are only good within their own limitations. I am writing down a few more points as we go, and I'm going to bring them up for discussion later in this thread........For now, I've got other things to do with my life, so check back later alligator! :D

.
 

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As I mentioned in a previous post, all the manual adjustments on my Oneway Bowl Steady (OBS) have been modified to be done without tools. For those of you who are using an OBS, this will make your experience much more user friendly, and those manual adjustments are now quick and hassle free.:D


As I mentioned before, the scissor arm lock nut has been replaced with a wing nut. This wing nut, as previously explained, can be either locked down when you want the scissor arms to be rigid......or, can be held open when you want freedom of movement of the scissor arms, during those times you wish to use the spring pressure against the roller wheels.
You'll notice the wing nut has some pieces of red 1/4" air line attached to the wings, and a couple of nuts locked to the end of the bolt threads. This allows the wing nut to be opened fully, allowing freedom of movement to the scissor arms. The red airline on the wings catches on the flats of the nuts when I don't intend to lock down the wheels. Therefore, I have the option of not locking down the wheels when I intend to use spring pressure on the wheels......or to lock them down when the bowl is fairly close to perfectly geometrically round.
adjustable controls (2).jpg

For the adjustable scissor arm mount assembly attachment to the upright post, I've replaced the lock nut with an extended "T" handle. This was made with a couple pieces of steel brazed together, and then brazed to the mount bolt using my acetylene torch. It's covered with foam and hockey tape to be easy on my hands during multiple adjustments.:cool:
adjustable controls (1).jpg

For the height adjustment, I used a piece of plastic tubing from an old vacuum cleaner (which just happened to be the right internal diameter!), and is covered with red hockey tape. The scissor arm assembly rests on top of the tube and the height adjustment is maintained permanently.....thus, allowing it to swivel, making all lateral adjustments quick and easy. The plastic tube is adjustable in height according to the height of the spindle over the lathe bed, via a quick adjustable hose clamp (yellow plastic handle). This might be handy for those using more than one lathe, but for me (who only has a single lathe), it's pretty much a permanent height adjustment. Allowing the scissor arm assembly to pivot on the upright post without changing the height adjustment is a great improvement over what the engineers at Oneway had in mind with the OBS, as it came from the factory. It eliminates the requirement of doing two separate adjustments with a single locking nut.....thus has been converted to a much more user friendly single adjustment.:D
adjustable controls (3).jpg
Note that the hole at the top of the upright post has been plugged with a piece of wood. This is simply to keep wood shaving, sawdust, and other debris from depositing there.........;)

ko
 
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I have been using roller blade wheels for asphalt they were harder and bounced less and worked ok . But was given some roller skate wheels they are like hard nylon and tare the surface up some but cured my bounce problem . I just leave the area proud and sand it down later . What iam trying to say is watch the bounce in wheels .
 

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I have been using roller blade wheels for asphalt they were harder and bounced less and worked ok . But was given some roller skate wheels they are like hard nylon and tare the surface up some but cured my bounce problem . I just leave the area proud and sand it down later . What iam trying to say is watch the bounce in wheels .

For "bounce"..... if reducing the rpm doesn't cure the problem, then the bowl may have warped too far out of geometric integrity to use the OBS at all. There are times when the bowl noticeably warps right before your very eyes, as you reduce the wall thickness. The OBS may have started out working ok, but looses it's usefulness, as warp becomes more of a factor. The further away you get from a perfectly round circle, the usefulness of the OBS is reduced. You can get away with some warp, but not very much. If the total warp is about 1/8", or more, it may be best to forget about using the OBS.

I've never tried any roller skate wheels, but since they have a wide flat surface (meant for quad application), they wouldn't adapt well to concave surfaces (such as inside a flared rim profile). This rim profile is something that I often find myself required to deal with.

For my needs, I'm finding a single narrow point of contact works best. I'll be discussing this in a subsequent post (with photos), but I shape my wheels to more of a "V" shape, than the rounded profile these inline skate wheels normally come with. A residual effect of this reshaping may also influence the flexibility of the rubber at the contact point, as well. (.....which may improve the ability of the wheel to absorb harmonic vibrations caused by the cutting action of gouges and scrapers.)

ko
 
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odie

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I'm sure most of you are already aware of this, but when shaping the exterior profile of a bowl, the OBS can be put on the back side of the bowl, so that it's not interfering with tool accessibility.....such as with this cherry burl I'm currently working on. Generally, it's best to have the wheels close to the cutting action, but the OBS still benefits the purpose of reducing vibration when mounted at the rear. I flip the scissor assembly over for mounting on the back side. This moves the base further away from the area you may want to use for the banjo.
IMG_2523.JPG

Notice the triangular piece of white shelving underneath the bowl, and resting atop the bedways. This makes it better to clearly observe the changing exterior profile of the bowl as it's being turned. Sometimes I shine a light directly on the shelving.....which makes the bowl profile stand out even more clearly.

ko
 
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RichColvin

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I like to turn cedar & juniper with the grain parallel to the bed.

IMG_7999.JPG IMG_7997.JPG

When I finish the outside and take away the tailstock, I need something to steady the wood when working on the inside. I use the Carter Multi-Rest and like it greatly. Works well to keep the piece from disengaging from the chuck.

IMG_7996.JPG
 
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I have used a home made steady once in a while, though mostly on larger bowls, seldom needed on bowls 12” and smaller, for me at least.

It seems to me that the shape of the bowl has a lot to do with it, as well as thickness of the bottom and size of the recess or tenon.

First thing I do, if the wood is moving away from the tool is to sharpen the tool, if that doesn’t help enough then a smaller tool that takes a smaller cut and so less power cutting.

After that the steady gets rigged up, hand steadying is usually not working with the large circumference of the larger bowls for me.

I made the steady with just one wheel, bolted onto a arm that is also bolted onto a larger angle iron, so I can swing the arm up or down to set the wheel where I am cutting.

I made a couple of pictures as I found the improvement quite impressive with just this rudimentary steady I am using,

These picture are just made for my self, not to show off what I do, but like in the picture of the Black Walnut bowl, it shows what the surface was before adding the steady and then on the right how much that improved with the use of the steady, and on the rim where the direction of cutting pressure is not in the direction of the steady is holding there is still an improvement in the cut quality, so yes at times it is a good tool to improve the outcome of your turning.

steady at work.jpg steady rigged.jpg steady use improvement.jpg cutting improvement.jpg
 
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