When a "push" is a "pull" .....

[Regis Galbach]

I was watching an excellent instructive live demo this morning at Tennessee Association of Woodturners. As a new turner, sometimes I take things a bit too literally. We were supposed to duplicate this 2nd turning when the demo was complete so, I was intently watching. When Jeff showed using a push cut across the outside of the bowl I was trying to make that cut in my head and it simply wouldn't work. Then *light came on* I realized that I stand on the opposite side of the tool as I'm left handed. So taking the gouge through the exact same move, at the exact same angle to me was a pull cut. I chuckled to myself after "almost" making myself even more obviously a newbie.
I am struggling a bit using some of the tools left handed. It gives me the most problems cutting inside a vessel. I have started practicing cutting right handed and maybe that's the solution, if I live long enough.
I've even considered standing behind the lathe and running it in reverse. One person suggested getting lathe when the headstock moves so I could stand at the end ($3,000 upgrade).

Well, maybe I'll find some left handed youtube turners to watch or .......in a few years make some for the next generation..LOL

Thanks Jeff Brockett and TAW for some excellent instruction and help.

Regis

 

[hockenbery]

Sounds like you have it.

In the push cut the handle is behind the cut and Pushing is done by the handle not the turner.
The nose leads the cut.
In the pull cut the handle is in front of the cut with the sideground gouge and the pulling is done by the handle not the turner. The nose trails the cut.

Bottom. Line what matters most is how the cutting edge moves across the surface to cut and shaped not how or with what hands you hold the tool.

Many turners learn to switch the lead hands when the they turn. It makes it easy to see the shape develop.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Although I'm right handed I can also turn left handed when necessary. However, a push or pull cut is all about how the tool is presented to the wood as Al said and not whether you use the tool as a righty or a lefty.

When I'm doing a push cut, generally it's the nose of the tool that is doing the cutting or sometimes the wing but still right next to the nose. And as AI said, the cutting edge is ahead of the handle because the tool is being pushed along. The tool is normally used level when making a push cut.

Whenever I'm doing a pull cut it's like Al said, the handle leads the cutting edge as the tool is being pulled towards you ... and, the cutting is being done with the wing of the tool. There are various ways of using the tool to make a pull cut: tool level, handle dropped down about 45 degrees, and handle dropped 60 degrees or more to do shear cutting. You can also do shear scraping with the handle low by rolling the tool until the flutes are facing the wood, but only the lower flute touches the wood.

My preference is to use a pull cut with the handle dropped low when I can, but others might prefer the handle level or using a push cut. Sometimes getting the cleanest cut works better using the technique that you don't prefer.

I hope this is a little more clear than mud.

 

[Regis Galbach]

I like to try to visualize a cut before making it because I've not yet learned any automatic ways yet. These descriptions have definitely helped me, regardless of what side of the tool I stand on.
No, it's not mud, I actually understand what you 2 are saying.
Thanks,
Regis

 

[John Torchick]

I'm fortunate to be ambidextrous for most things. Working in R&D for two appliance manufacturers dictated you learn or widen your vocabulary by a number of words and phrases.
Interesting thread and posts. Will reread later to gather details of the techniques.

 

[Barry Crowder]

I think the push vs. pull issue has been covered, but I thought I'd add one more little tidbit. I find pull cuts to be a challenge my small (10") lathe because there is often something in the way when I try to get the handle low like it needs to be to do a proper pull cut. The width of the tool rest, the position of the banjo locking arm, and the tool post locking lever often get in the way. The obstruction is small, but it's enough to matter in many cases.

If I try to do a pull cut without proper clearance of the handle, I sometimes end up with a bad angle on the wing, and get a catch. As a result, I tend to use push cuts more often.

I suspect that a different toolrest design will help. It's on my list of things to do.

 

[john lucas]

Push and pull is not really a good description. When I learned the handle down bevel rubbing technique I learned it as a pull cut. In other words I was pulling the gouge toward me. Later on I learned that I could do this exact same cut with the handle down flute forward but I'm standing behind the gouge and pushing. When I first started making hand mirrors I did a push cut from outside to middle. Later I wanted the middle to be thicker than the outside and so I needed to cut from the center out to be cutting downwill with the grain. I started the push cut with the nose of the tool in the center and I guess it's still kind of a push cut but I am pulling my hands toward me.
Left handed, right hand, you eventually learn to use either hand. Like the basketball player said when someone asked if he could shoot with both hands. He said yes I'm amphibious..

 

[Regis Galbach]

Left handed, right hand, you eventually learn to use either hand. Like the basketball player said when someone asked if he could shoot with both hands. He said yes I'm amphibious..

John,
Now THAT is a quote that I must remember!

Thanks again everyone for all the tips and help. Maybe next year I'll even get something in the gallery here..
Regis

 

[John Torchick]

"Like the basketball player said when someone asked if he could shoot with both hands. He said yes I'm amphibious.."
Wonder where he went to school.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Like the basketball player said when someone asked if he could shoot with both hands. He said yes I'm amphibious..

So, the coach put him on the water basketball team...

 

[odie]

it seems as though when using a push cut, the best cut is closer to the nose than when using the same gouge in a pull cut. I guess there is a good reason for that, but I don't exactly know what it is.......

-----odie-----

 

[robo hippy]

I kind of scratch my head about the pull/push cuts. I see demonstrations of both and some times the only difference I can see is which side of the handle you are on when making the cut. My push cut uses mostly the nose to cut, and the handle is pretty much level, though many drop the handle and cut more or less with the wing. I don't think I had seen a pull cut where the nose is doing most of the cutting though.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

I don't think I had seen a pull cut where the nose is doing most of the cutting though.

robo.......I have used the nose on a pull cut in a very limited way.....by pulling the nose around the surface of a bead on the rim. Other than that, I can't think of a time when there is any advantage to using the nose of a gouge in a pull cut.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Boehme]

This is an old thread, but I was surprised to see the confusion between a push and pull cut. The answer has nothing to do with how you stand or hold the tool or use your right or left hand. Think of it in very simple terms ... what is the handle doing to the tool? Is the handle pulling the tool or pushing it? It's that simple.The relationship between the handle and the tool is fixed ... while we can shift our position around, Take the user out of the picture and describe what the tool is doing. This is the same thing that Al described except that I remove the user from the picture.

 

[john lucas]

Dead on Bill. Wish I had described it that way. Although I use a sort of combination. Lets say I'm turning the outside of a bowl open side toward the headstock. I have the handle real low so I'm getting a pretty extreme shear cut. I'm standing at the tailstock end pushing the tool. The handle is ahead of the cutting edge. Usually I'm doing this left handed meaning left hand on the handle right hand anchoring the tool on the tool rest. It's exactly the same cut as what we all call a pull cut but in a pull cut I would be standing sort of in the line of fire and using my right hand on the handle and left hand anchoring the tool. It's basically a safer way to do that cut since I'm out of the line of fire. With the handle really low you are riding the long bevel of the wing and there's now way to get a catch.

 

[hockenbery]

Below is a 5.5 minute clip from a natural edge crotch bowl demo.
It shows what we have been talking about.
In it I explain the basics of the push cut and basics of the pull cut.
I also show the pull cut being “pushed”

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMdTQSV0qJ0

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Although I'm right handed I can also turn left handed when necessary. However, a push or pull cut is all about how the tool is presented to the wood as Al said and not whether you use the tool as a righty or a lefty.

When I'm doing a push cut, generally it's the nose of the tool that is doing the cutting or sometimes the wing but still right next to the nose. And as AI said, the cutting edge is ahead of the handle because the tool is being pushed along. The tool is normally used level when making a push cut.

Whenever I'm doing a pull cut it's like Al said, the handle leads the cutting edge as the tool is being pulled towards you ... and, the cutting is being done with the wing of the tool. There are various ways of using the tool to make a pull cut: tool level, handle dropped down about 45 degrees, and handle dropped 60 degrees or more to do shear cutting. You can also do shear scraping with the handle low by rolling the tool until the flutes are facing the wood, but only the lower flute touches the wood.

My preference is to use a pull cut with the handle dropped low when I can, but others might prefer the handle level or using a push cut. Sometimes getting the cleanest cut works better using the technique that you don't prefer.

I hope this is a little more clear than mud.

I'm having a hard time visualizing a pull cut and holding the handle or tool level, is that even possible?

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm having a hard time visualizing a pull cut and holding the handle or tool level, is that even possible?

Yes

 

[john lucas]

Yes it is possible but you really gotta stay on the bevel. With my V gouge and short main bevel I can literally roll the tool over until it becomes a scrape and not get a catch. When I start a cut at the bowl bottom on lathes like the Jet 1642, you can't lower the the tool rest so the handle won't go down far. On a pull cut on that lathe the flute is up and the wood is coming across the cutting edge at almost 90 degrees. Not a real clean cut. As I pull the handle out I can usually drop it further and then the wood is crossing the edge at a more shear angle and of course gives a much cleaner cut. On those lathes to clean up the area near the foot I end up doing a push cut with my spindle gouge for that first inch or so.
With a U shaped gouge that has narrow wings you can get one heck of a catch when you have the tool horizontal. Parabolic gouges will usually let you roll the grind over a little on the wings which is similar to the V gouge. Now I'm just taking about the Thompson V. Don't have experience with other gouges.

 

[hockenbery]

I'm having a hard time visualizing a pull cut and holding the handle or tool level, is that even possible?

With the handle level it becomes a peeling cut and it works in either direction with the nose leading or trailing.
This is often used for shaping spindle oriented pieces like end grain hollowed vessels.
It produces a less smooth surface than a pull cut with the handle dropped.

On face grain hollowed bowl oriented pieces it requires a lot of skill or you get big catches.

The pull cut with the handle dropped you can’t get a catch unless you let the nose contact the wood.

 

[robo hippy]

Push/pull cuts are like 'shear scrape' cuts, or 'fingernail' grinds..... Huge amounts of variation, and many different meanings to a lot of people.... Probably not really accurate names for what the cut is actually doing. For this, I would say if the nose leads the cut, then it is a push cut. If the wing leads the cut, then it is a pull cut. Push cut tends to be done with the handle more level, and pull cuts tend to be done more with the handle dropped, and there are a lot of variations. A lot of people kind of use a combination of the two...

As for peeling cuts on bowls, NEVER! At least as far as I am concerned. This is the reason there are so many huge catches when people try to use a SRG on bowls. They try the peeling cut. It works out fine unless you happen to come off of the bevel, then huge catch, bent tool, possible explosions, and blood donations to the wood gods..... It is controllable until the instant the bevel comes off the wood, then instantly you have a scraper pointing up into the wood spin... This is exactly what happened in the famous video of Ian 'Robbo' Robertson from Australia, on why you don't use the SRG on bowls. It is not, as one famous turner said "totally because of the end grain". I don't know if he figured that one out yet or not...

robo hippy

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

With the handle level it becomes a peeling cut and it works in either direction with the nose leading or trailing.
This is often used for shaping spindle oriented pieces like end grain hollowed vessels.
It produces a less smooth surface than a pull cut with the handle dropped.

On face grain hollowed bowl oriented pieces it requires a lot of skill or you get big catches.

The pull cut with the handle dropped you can’t get a catch unless you let the nose contact the wood.

Ok, now it makes sense, and I can see it in my mind, a peeling cut.

Yes it is possible but you really gotta stay on the bevel. With my V gouge and short main bevel I can literally roll the tool over until it becomes a scrape and not get a catch. When I start a cut at the bowl bottom on lathes like the Jet 1642, you can't lower the the tool rest so the handle won't go down far. On a pull cut on that lathe the flute is up and the wood is coming across the cutting edge at almost 90 degrees. Not a real clean cut. As I pull the handle out I can usually drop it further and then the wood is crossing the edge at a more shear angle and of course gives a much cleaner cut. On those lathes to clean up the area near the foot I end up doing a push cut with my spindle gouge for that first inch or so.
With a U shaped gouge that has narrow wings you can get one heck of a catch when you have the tool horizontal. Parabolic gouges will usually let you roll the grind over a little on the wings which is similar to the V gouge. Now I'm just taking about the Thompson V. Don't have experience with other gouges.

I have to go on the lathe and test what you are saying. As hockenbery said, with the horizontal handle it becomes a peeling cut. I find my self using gouges so many different ways, then people ask me, what cut is that? Hmmm I have all the Thomspon gouges, U, V and my favorite, Deep V. The deep V gives me a closer shape to my all time Favorite gouge, an Ellsworth grind. Truly the turning point in my career when the Ellsworth gouge arrived with it's own VHS tape users manual!! A tool with instructions! I wore out that tape...

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Push/pull cuts are like 'shear scrape' cuts, or 'fingernail' grinds..... Huge amounts of variation, and many different meanings to a lot of people.... Probably not really accurate names for what the cut is actually doing. For this, I would say if the nose leads the cut, then it is a push cut. If the wing leads the cut, then it is a pull cut. Push cut tends to be done with the handle more level, and pull cuts tend to be done more with the handle dropped, and there are a lot of variations. A lot of people kind of use a combination of the two...

As for peeling cuts on bowls, NEVER! At least as far as I am concerned. This is the reason there are so many huge catches when people try to use a SRG on bowls. They try the peeling cut. It works out fine unless you happen to come off of the bevel, then huge catch, bent tool, possible explosions, and blood donations to the wood gods..... It is controllable until the instant the bevel comes off the wood, then instantly you have a scraper pointing up into the wood spin... This is exactly what happened in the famous video of Ian 'Robbo' Robertson from Australia, on why you don't use the SRG on bowls. It is not, as one famous turner said "totally because of the end grain". I don't know if he figured that one out yet or not...

robo hippy

Robo, I have been helping translate woodturning articles to Spanish. Imagine if we do not have consent in our language on turning terms, makes it really hard when you translate. Plus a word in Argentina doesn't mean the same in Spain... Now, about peeling cuts, I believe that's what I have been doing for years to true up the blank, when it goes on the chuck and its a little wobbly, I do a peeling cut from the foot to the rim, one or 2 passes and runs true... I can see a beginner being a split second from disaster....