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JET 1221vs Alignment

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Hi all, first post here. I'm a relatively new wood turner. I started on an old grizzly mini lathe handed down to me, and recently upgraded to a JET 1222vs.

Out of the box, the headstock and tail stock of the JET are not perfectly aligned horizontally (please see attached pic).
Lathe Alignment.jpg

I've reached out to JET and they've told me to "shim the bolts" or file down the tail stock. I'm not really comfortable filing a brand new piece of equipment with my limited experience, and I'm still working on getting shims so haven't tried that yet. I'm wondering if:

a) Should I expect perfect alignment out of the box, and if so, should I be pushing JET to fix the issue rather than trying to implement their recommendations?
b) Is the amount of misalignment shown in the photo significant enough to be a concern? I'm definitely getting a lot more vibration on this machine compared to the Grizzly, which is making it hard to get a smooth finish on my cuts, but I don't know if the alignment or another issue with my setup is causing this.

Thanks for any wisdom you can impart on this newbie!
 
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I think the vibration would bother me more than that aliignment. If you are doing spindle work that alignment may cause a problem. For bowls, platters, and hollow forms I don't see that as an issue.
Hopefully someone has tips on the vibration.

Regis
 

Bill Boehme

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Welcome to the AAW forum, David.

I wouldn't be too concerned about something that small. It looks pretty good to me. Besides, matching points only tells you half the story... it tells you the radial misalignment, but doesn't tell you anything about angular misalignment. For turning between centers, perfect alignment is meaningless because the spindle is rotating about its own axis ... an analogy would be an automobile drive shaft with a universal joint at each end.

I don't understand Jet's response since you said that the misalignment was horizontal and not vertical. There is generally enough lateral play in the tailstock to zero out misalignment if you haven't tried that yet.

As Regis said, the vibration is a much greater concern. Could you describe the vibration in a little more detail? With the lathe running and nothing mounted on the spindle, is it something that is audible or is something that is felt? How is it affected by speed? Remove the belt to see if it is still a problem with only the motor running. Use a dial indicator to measure the runout on the spindle to see if it might be bent ... it's rare, but my first lathe had a bent spindle.
 
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I don’t have this lathe so may be way off base. A thought on vibration and misalignment… when you take firm hold of the spindle and the hand wheel, can you feel any movement whatsoever by twisting in opposing directions? I noticed in pics of the lathe that the headstock appears bolted to the bed. It may be ever-so-slightly loose. The misalignment could be the result of the headstock sitting canted a touch. Hopefully this one check will solve both issues.
 
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Thanks for the quick reply guys! I will look in to the other items RE: vibration and hope to get back to you guys soon with some updates.

I do not have a bench I can bolt the lathe to, so I have it bolted to a piece of plywood which I then have clamped to the bench. This is not ideal I know, but it's my best option at this point.

So far it sounds like the group consensus is that the small misalignment is not a big enough deal for me to raise a stink with JET, and I will focus on looking in to these other issues that may be causing the vibration.

Thanks again!
 
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Welcome to the AAW forum, David.

I wouldn't be too concerned about something that small. It looks pretty good to me. Besides, matching points only tells you half the story... it tells you the radial misalignment, but doesn't tell you anything about angular misalignment. For turning between centers, perfect alignment is meaningless because the spindle is rotating about its own axis ... an analogy would be an automobile drive shaft with a universal joint at each end.

I don't understand Jet's response since you said that the misalignment was horizontal and not vertical. There is generally enough lateral play in the tailstock to zero out misalignment if you haven't tried that yet.

As Regis said, the vibration is a much greater concern. Could you describe the vibration in a little more detail? With the lathe running and nothing mounted on the spindle, is it something that is audible or is something that is felt? How is it affected by speed? Remove the belt to see if it is still a problem with only the motor running. Use a dial indicator to measure the runout on the spindle to see if it might be bent ... it's rare, but my first lathe had a bent spindle.

Bill, thanks for your detailed list of tests. I listened to the motor/drive system and felt the bed with my hand under numerous different operating scenarios. I tested:
- Spindle in
- Spindle out
- Belt detached
- Workpiece attached

To me there is vibration in the bed that I can easily feel with my hands across all speed ranges and all situations. The vibration is much less without the belt attached, and not surprisingly is worst with the workpiece mounted.

There also seem to be some strange noises coming from either the motor or bearings or...something else? It comes and goes and seems much more prevalent when the belt is actually connected. Maybe I'm just being paranoid but I took a number of short videos which I've uploaded to the link below. If you're willing to take a gander and let me know how it sounds to you, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLngBCq-UDIT36JzxEwwdHRJ_F4hFYVpwJ
 
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Mine is not quite that loud but mine is also on wood cabinet although it is bolted solid. I can't tell if there is vibration in yours but, I do hear the bearings.
I occasionally have to remind myself that mine doesn't run like the $3500++ lathes that some of the folks here have.
Regis
 
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The random noise you are getting may be from the bearings or the thin ribbed belt.
Depending on the RPM of the individual components turning you could be getting
vibrations and noise that resonate at those speeds. You might check the set screws
on the motor drive pulley and the spindle pulley to make sure they are secured. Many
of the off shore bearings being made these days are of questionable quality. Most of
the imported industrial equipment our company commissions require the bearings to
be replaced before we can get them running to specs. You could use a dial indicator
to check the run out on a straight piece of round stock chucked up on your lathe. There
are a number of video's on YouTube that explain the process of checking run out on a lathe.
Another simple solution for aligning the center points is to loosen the (4) mounting bolts
of the head stock and align the (2) points and then tighten the mounting bolts as you watch
the alignment of the two points. But this can also throw the alignment off of the head stock
and the lathe ways. On a precision machine you would level and align the head stock first
using shims so that the spindle is centered and aligned on the lathe ways and then address
any alignment issues with the tail stock.
 

Bill Boehme

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On the two videos that are titled "spindle in" and "spindle out" (actually the spindle is the rotating element of the headstock, the piece that plugs into the Morse taper socket of the spindle is the the drive spur), I hear a lot of bearing noise. With the belt removed, grab the spindle nose or at the handwheel and see if there's any radial or axial free play. If I'm not mistaken, the axial play can be taken out by adjusting how far the handwheel is screwed on. You can check the bearings by turning the spindle by hand (belt removed, of course) and carefully listening for any slight ticking or other noise. Bearings in good condition ought to be quiet. Next, give the spindle a quick spin by hand to see if there is any noise such as a rattle or growl.
 
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David, I just did the test procedures listed above and learned something about my 1221 and really didn't finds any problem that I could hear. BUT, I did quiet mine down. Every time I have moved the belt, I had put lot of pressure on the lever to put tension on the belt. Well, I tried with just light-to-moderate pressure and it quieted down a LOT. Mine was not as loud as yours but, it still made bearing noise. So, your post probably made my Jet & belt last longer and run smoother & quieter.
Thanks,
Regis
 
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David, I just did the test procedures listed above and learned something about my 1221 and really didn't finds any problem that I could hear. BUT, I did quiet mine down. Every time I have moved the belt, I had put lot of pressure on the lever to put tension on the belt. Well, I tried with just light-to-moderate pressure and it quieted down a LOT. Mine was not as loud as yours but, it still made bearing noise. So, your post probably made my Jet & belt last longer and run smoother & quieter.
Thanks,
Regis
Thanks Regis. I too crank down pretty hard on the lever but just tried with light pressure and the problem remains. I wish I knew what a properly operating version of this lathe sounded/felt like so I could know if mine is way off base. Sounds like it is. I think I'm just going to have to take it in to JET and request a new one.
 

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Thanks for mentioning that, Regis. V-belts and especially poly v-belts should never be under high tension. You ought to be able to grab the belt between your thumb and index finger about midway between the pulleys and deflect it a half inch each way with only moderate finger pressure. High tension will wear out the belt and bearings way before their normal service life. On my Jet mini lathe, the weight of the little half horse motor is sufficient for tensioning the belt.
 

john lucas

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I will have to go look at a 1221 to see how the bearing are inserted. On the smaller jets the handwheel tightens up to put tension on the bearings. If it's too tight it will make noise. Too lose and you get some mild spindle wobble. I will check with my friend who has one and see if I can run over.
Belt tension will definitely cause excessive noise. You want enough tension to drive everything but not hogging down on it.
 
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Most likely it is the rotating live center that is slightly out. They are not that precision and I have seen many times when two spur centers are used the lathe alignment is fine. The rotating live centers are just not the way to check lathe alignment. Before doing anything to the lathe with respect to alignment I would recommend either getting another spur center to use or a lathe alignment tool. I would suspect the vibration is from something else and not alignment.
 
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Using a mechanics stethoscope or a long handled screw driver you may be able to
locate the source of the noise. When standing next to a machine making noise it can
be difficult isolating the source of the noise and problem. If you can narrow down the
source of the noise you will most likely narrow down the problem & the solutions.
You have (2) main rotating components in your machine, determine if the noise and vibration
is emanating from the drive motor or the rotating spindle assembly. You have a new machine
with a new belt so it should be in good condition, you may want to inspect the drive belt to make
sure it is in good condition, a worn or damaged belt can also create vibration and noise on a
rotating machine.

Another option is to review your parts manual to understand the process of the dis-assembly
of your machine. You could purchase a good quality set of bearings for the spindle assembly and
take your lathe apart and install a new set of bearings. Taking this step will do several things, you
will have an intimate understanding and knowledge of all of the components in your machine. You
will also understand how they work together as a system. You will also understand how to access
and maintain each assembly in the machine. You could also install a spare belt around the spindle
shaft and secure it out of the way so you have it when the other belt fails.

If the parts manual does not provide enough information for the bearings you will need to take
measurements from the factory installed bearings to cross them over to a domestic made bearing
that will work on your machine. Someone may have already done this and may have them listed on
the internet on one of the wood working websites. You could order the original OEM bearings but if
there was a quality control issue with these bearings you might be replacing a bad set of bearings with
another set of bad bearings. As of late many companies that make equipment overseas will source components on the open market and these components are manufactured or assembled in questionable
environments, bearings are precision made components that need to be cleaned and assembled in a
clean room controlled environment.

Relying on a factory customer service these days can be frustrating and many times a waste of time. The trend as of late is putting a script in front of a person that has a day or two of training to answer questions
when the phone rings. The newer model machines take several months before they get feed back from the
market to determine the weak components and problems with a new design. You can get your hands dirty by
working on your machine to determine the problem, or you can sit on the phone waiting for the next available
attendant to read off of a script to maybe identify the problem.
 

Bill Boehme

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Since I am currently at the SWAT symposium, I dropped by the Craft Supplies booth and got Kirk DeHeer to run the Jet 1221 that they had set up for for doing demonstrations. This was during the quiet time in the vendor area when most people were away attending programs so there wasn't any crowd noise. He ran the lathe at about 1900 RPM and I could barely hear any sound. The sound that I did hear was essentially all from the motor. The lathe was sitting on a sturdy work bench.

Just to make sure that the piece of plywood isn't acting as an amplifier, try running the lathe sitting directly on a concrete floor. If it's not running very quietly, take it back and get another one.
 

john lucas

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I looked at the club lathe this morning. It runs very quiet. It looks like the inboard bearing may be installed from the front and the rear one from the rear. Couldn't tell for sure if the hand wheel would tighten or loosen the fit of those bearings but you can loosen the setscrew and find out. Can't remember if the handwheel is left hand threaded or not however so that could be a little tricky. From your videos the noise definitely seems to be coming from the top spindle. As far as alignment goes did you clean out the morse tapers before inserting the drive and live centers. That can easily throw them off. The tailstock on the club lathe has very little slop but you should always push the tailstock toward the ways either front or back before locking it down. That or twisting the tailstock might bring things back into alignment. I don't know if small lathes are subject to this but larger lathes can actually twist the bed slightly if the legs are not level. Bolting it down to a board that isn't perfectly flat could feasilbly have the same effect of twisting the bed which would throw the tailstock out of alignment.
Well that's about all I can think of this morning.
 
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This is why many machines are taken apart and rebuilt after they arrive from offshore.
They are using poor quality bearings or were mishandled and destroyed during assembly.
Bearings being a precision component can be destroyed if not stored properly, and can also
be damaged during assembly if they are not assembled in a manner that is suitable for the
design of the bearing. The company I work for commission large numbers of rotating equipment
each year, many times we will dis-assemble a million dollar machine after it arrives from offshore to
validate and commission the equipment prior to running it. We have found on many occasions knock-off
bearings that are made by unknown sources, we will contact the bearing manufacturer and provide the
part number and serial number and many times they come back as being fakes. Documentation is many
times lacking on these machines as we archive and record dimensions and specifications and verify
components are made from specified materials. This allows us to order and stock repair parts for critical
equipment that needs to run and can be repaired on short notice. Bearings are one of the most common
"knock off" components in the industry.

If you return your old lathe to get a replacement, have them plug in the new lathe and run it at the store to verify you are getting a working unit.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpY7u9e2UG4
 
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This is another common problem that occurs with this lathe.
if the set screw loosens on the spindle pulley it will move along the shaft and ride against the spindle lock.
This will create a ticking noise on each revolution of the spindle much like a bad bearing.
Align the spindle pulley with the motor pulley so the belt runs true.
Use some loctite thread compound to secure the set screw from coming loose from vibration.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrUvHWcPpWw
 

Bill Boehme

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Use some loctite thread compound to secure the set screw from coming loose from vibration.

Another method is to use a second setscrew on top of the first. Be sure to make a note in your manual and a mental note about having double setscrews. Don't ask me why this is important.:D
 
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Thanks so much for all your thoughtful replies. I decided to return the lathe with 1 day remaining in my amazon return window. They shipped a new one out immediately. It arrived days later with a massive hole through the box, likely from a forklift, that had completely sheared off the hand wheel in the back! So frustrating. I finally returned everything for a refund and found a local vendor who I bought it from.

As soon as I started up this new one it was clearly worlds better than any of the machines amazon had sent me. The tail stock and head stock are aligned perfectly, the vibrations are minimal and it's so much quieter. Don't think I'll ever make a large equipment purchase from amazon again. It feels like they sent me previously-returned equipment or equipment that was for some reason or another was second rate.

Just got a chuck and pen mandrel for my birthday so I'm pumped to start turning on this new and properly-functioning lathe!
 
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for the alignment...have you tried adjusting the leveling feet? based on your picture, I would raise the back leg on the tail stock end a hair.
this will give a little twist and move your points into alignment.
 

john lucas

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Not sure how much if any that 1221 will twist. It's short and quite substantial. If I think about it I'll look at our club lathe tomorrow night and might see if it's possible to put a shim under one leg and see if it twists any.
 

Bill Boehme

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Not sure how much if any that 1221 will twist. It's short and quite substantial. If I think about it I'll look at our club lathe tomorrow night and might see if it's possible to put a shim under one leg and see if it twists any.

I seriously doubt that there will be any noticeable twisting.
 

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Long bed lathes can twist if the legs aren't level. the 1221 is a short bed lathe and is far stockier than most mini's which is why I thought it wouldn't work. Didn't have time to play with the lathe last night.
 
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