CBN Wheel Cleaning

[William Rogers]

I have never cleaned my 180 CBN wheel. I have been careful and have used it only for HSS and V10. I saw a "cleaning stick" on Amazon made by Norton, 1X1X6 Type 54 Dressing Stick 38A150-Ivbe. It says for cleaning CBN wheels and is made from aluminum oxide. I'm guessing it is used the same as the rubber sticks used for sandpaper. Has anyone used this? What is the preferred method to clean CBN wheels?

 

[john lucas]

Wow. Interesting. I wouldn't think you could "dress" or true up a CBN surface. There isn't enough there to true up. Cleaning maybe. Reed Gray suggests cleaning with Trend lapping fluid and I tried that and it works well and is obviously non abrasive. I would think touching the CBN with something as abrasive as Aluminum oxide would not be good but I'm willing to learn.

 

[billooms]

I wouldn't use any "dressing stick" on my CBN.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I wouldn't use dressing stick on a plated wheel. On my tool and die grinder the CBN and diamond wheels have to be redressed once in awhile when they lose sharp corners from wear, but on those you have around a 1/4" thickness of abrasive on an aluminum core. Still they're expensive so dress only when really needed.

 

[robo hippy]

There are two types of CBN wheels. Most of us use the metal ones with the abrasive electroplated to the metal. The other variation is the CBN is in a matrix of some sort that is bonded to the wheel in a layer about 3/16 thick and is grey in color. That type of wheel is rounded/trued up and cleaned by using a very hard aluminum oxide wheel and cleaning sticks. They really don't do anything for our plated wheels. I do regularly apply Trend lapping fluid to the bevels of my tools when I sharpen them. I turn sloppy wet wood, and that slop does get on the wheel. The Trend, and I am sure other light oils really help clean the gunk off. Dave Schweitzer of D Way tools uses a little kerosene on his, if they need it. You can also use Ajax or Comet type cleaners on the wheels, and I think oven cleaner as well. For me, just Trend, dip a pipe cleaner in the fluid, wet the bevel and sharpen. If you always turn dry wood, you most likely will never need to clean them up at all. I did try some of the aluminum oxide on my wheels, and I think the fine dust from the abrasive made it look cleaner, but that was probably the white dust on the wheel, and you do not want to breathe that stuff....

robo hippy

 

[John King]

Why do you want to clean it? What are you trying to remove? - John

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

I tried Comet a while back with a steel wire brush, and I didn't find that it removed the loading—but I didn't soak the wheels.

So far the best thing I've found is what Dave Schweitzer recommended to me recently: soak the wheels in water (swells any wood particles) and then use a good soap or other degreaser.

It occurs to me that the resins/sap that load CBN wheels probably varies between turners owing to what woods we turn and how green we turn them....so to a certain degree what works best could also vary a little.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Seems a solution might be to clean the resins off the tool before sharpening and the time before cleaning is needed will be extended considerably.

 

[hockenbery]

Seems a solution might be to clean the resins off the tool before sharpening and the time before cleaning is needed will be extended considerably.

Interesting thought.
I often sharpen more because of resin drag on the bevel than the tool being dull.
With friable wheels the periodic dressing to true the wheel also eliminated any glazing.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Isopropyl alcohol is the most commonly used solvent for cleaning tree sap from a surface.
Invertase is the most common enzyme used to break down raw sugars.
Amylase is the most common enzyme used to break down starches.
A water solution with yeast could also be used to break down the tree sap compound.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

A water solution with yeast could also be used to break down the tree sap compound.

Thanks for the quick chemistry lesson. I'll have to try isopropyl alcohol on saw blades and bandsaw blades.

And maybe sourdough starter on my CBN wheels. Remember the scandal of iron filings in cereal for extra iron? This could make for some hearty pancakes!

 

[Gary Beasley]

Do you think the same cleaner for saw blades would do for the CBN wheels?

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Do you think the same cleaner for saw blades would do for the CBN wheels?

My usual disclaimer that I'm no expert...but I would think so. Dave Schweitzer said he tried darn near everything, both to see what might affect the bonding in his wheels and to clean most effectively. Oven cleaner apparently works fairly well.

My limited experience says Dave is really on to something about soaking the wheels being very helpful in getting wood particles to swell.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Some of the chemicals used in saw blade cleaners differs between manufacturers.
A few of them list the chemicals in the MSDS sheets and some of them only list the
chemicals that provide a risk to the user and do not list the largest percentage chemical
in the formula. A few of these chemicals that I have seen in some of the formula's are
propane, butane, butyl carbitol, sodium hydroxide, sodium carbonate, petroleum products
and water.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Back when I did a lot of cabinetry, my main sawblade cleaner for both softwood pitch and tropical hardwood burnt on gunk was Dr. Bronner's Sal Suds. I would put it full strength on a sawblade and leave it in the shop sink overnight.

The main ingredient is sodium laurel sulfate, and this may be the only thing that will both clean sawblades and backwoods hippy laundry!

I don't have any kicking around (despite being what many would call a backwoods hippy) but I've been meaning to get some to try on CBN wheels.

 

[Jon Murphy]

I'll go with Dave Schweitzer's method, it has worked for me when I have a heavy wood build-up to clean off my CBN wheels. No, I don't make a practice of grinding wood on my wheels - but now and then it is necessary. I make jigs of coated particle board shelving for setting the angle of the tool rest for my flat tools (skews, scrapers, bedan, etc). The final "cut" is on the wheel so as to match the shape perfectly, so when I make a new jig I do grind a bit of wood. I've found that soaking the wheels in the kitchen sink with dish soap then brushing with an ordinary scrub brush does the trick.

A real plus to the CBN wheels is the fact that you don't wear them down, so don't have to remake jigs. A little hint for any who make similar jigs - slide them in from the side on the square edge wheel (my 80) if it has the abrasive on the edge (D-Way does). It is a quick and clean cut and leaves residue mainly on the edge.

I've had my D-way beveled edge 180 for at least 3 years and added my D-way 80 about a year and a half ago. I love to turn green wood, but don't have much access to a supply. I have only had to clean my CBN wheels when I make jigs.

It is always nice to learn something simple, I never thought of cleaning the tool before grinding it - thanks guys.

As to setting the tool rest exactly, it is not that a perfect angle is important to the cut - it is that an exact duplication of the grind saves tool steel. My excuse for spending all the money on CBN wheels is they they cost me an arm, but saved me a leg. The best of jigs will never duplicate a grind on a wheel that is wearing down, so you always will be making more passes when you go to the wheel.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

A few days ago I had friend over at the shop. He was sharpening a gouge with the David Ellsworth jig. Somehow the jig got sucked in the cbn wheel. I thought he got hurt! Luckily he was OK. Now I have a big streak of aluminum about 1/8 in wide and wider going all around my wheel... Any ideas how to clean it? Happy new year!

 

[JeffSmith]

Emiliano - grind a nice large scraper on the wheel. Maybe turn it into a negative rake scraper. By the time you’re done, the aluminum should be gone or mostly gone...

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Emiliano - grind a nice large scraper on the wheel. Maybe turn it into a negative rake scraper. By the time you’re done, the aluminum should be gone or mostly gone...

I can definitely try that! Good idea. Aloha.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Or, just ignore it. The aluminum is a lot softer than the HSS tools that you are sharpening and will wear off. That's probably a good safety lesson. Rotating machinery can grab anything that touches it faster than the blink of an eye.

 

[john lucas]

I make my wooden angle jigs out of 1/4 plywood and also do the final touch up by touching the wheel. I only have 1/4" or so of wood touching the wheel because I cut out an arc in the middle so that only 2 small areas touch the wood. I have not had a problem with the wood loading the CBN wheel at all. My jigs sort of resemble the Raptor jigs although I started making them about 10 years before the Raptor. I modified Mike Darlow's really fancy jig to come up with mine.
the very beginning of this video shows my jigs.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbggxj2kgyc&t=41s

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Or, just ignore it. The aluminum is a lot softer than the HSS tools that you are sharpening and will wear off. That's probably a good safety lesson. Rotating machinery can grab anything that touches it faster than the blink of an eye.

Never occurred to me to teach beginners how to safely use my Baldor grinder, but I just added something to the list of safety things... Let's hope that the streak goes away, I hate to see it there....

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I make my wooden angle jigs out of 1/4 plywood and also do the final touch up by touching the wheel. I only have 1/4" or so of wood touching the wheel because I cut out an arc in the middle so that only 2 small areas touch the wood. I have not had a problem with the wood loading the CBN wheel at all. My jigs sort of resemble the Raptor jigs although I started making them about 10 years before the Raptor. I modified Mike Darlow's really fancy jig to come up with mine.
the very beginning of this video shows my jigs.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbggxj2kgyc&t=41s

When Mike Mahoney stopped by to visit me last year, he showed me his grind, same as the Batty grind, so I call it the Mahoney grind, lol.

 

[john lucas]

I thought Mike's grind was little different than Stewarts. On Mike's tools he has a very short main bevel that is 40 degrees (same as Stewarts) but he uses the Wolverine Jig. Stewart uses a flat tool rest and rotates the tool by hand starting with the flute pointing toward the wheel but at 40 degrees to the wheel. This gives a different wing than the Wolverine and leaves a longer bevel. I could easily be wrong since it's been a while since I've seen Mike Demo. They will both be at our Symposium at the end of this month so I will try to remember to ask them.

 

[Paul Gilbert]

Aluminum is an amphoteric metal, which is a big word for a metal that is soluble in both acid and alkali solutions. Mix up a strong solution of Lye - (sodium hydroxide - drain cleaner) and soak the wheel. The ferrous metals will not be affected, but the aluminum will be dissolved and may even give off some bubbles in the process.

 

[hockenbery]

Aluminum is an amphoteric metal, which is a big word for a metal that is soluble in both acid and alkali solutions. Mix up a strong solution of Lye - (sodium hydroxide - drain cleaner) and soak the wheel. The ferrous metals will not be affected, but the aluminum will be dissolved and may even give off some bubbles in the process.

My CBN wheel is aluminum so ..... this would be a bad thing to do on aluminum wheels??

 

[john lucas]

Al took the words right out of my mouth. I have a steel CBN from Dave but was thinking about buying another one from Ken and his are aluminum. Of course I typically don't grind aluminum on my CBN but it's good to know that cleaning them with Sodium Hydroxide would be a bad thing.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I would also be concerned about how the lye affects the plating metal that is used to bind the CBN crystals to the wheel. I know that caustic oven cleaners can erode the brazing used on carbide tipped saw blades. Maybe I'll let somebody else be the first to try using lye to clean CBN wheels.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Wonder if that cleaning fluid that Trend makes would help.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I thought Mike's grind was little different than Stewarts. On Mike's tools he has a very short main bevel that is 40 degrees (same as Stewarts) but he uses the Wolverine Jig. Stewart uses a flat tool rest and rotates the tool by hand starting with the flute pointing toward the wheel but at 40 degrees to the wheel. This gives a different wing than the Wolverine and leaves a longer bevel. I could easily be wrong since it's been a while since I've seen Mike Demo. They will both be at our Symposium at the end of this month so I will try to remember to ask them.

I never seen the Stuart grind in person.. But, Mike did the same thing as you did, all by hand, no jig. He set my rest at "about" 45 and did the wings and bevel. He added you can't get that grind especially on the sides with a jig....

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Aluminum is an amphoteric metal, which is a big word for a metal that is soluble in both acid and alkali solutions. Mix up a strong solution of Lye - (sodium hydroxide - drain cleaner) and soak the wheel. The ferrous metals will not be affected, but the aluminum will be dissolved and may even give off some bubbles in the process.

Best idea yet! You are sure I won’t melt my wheel? Lol. Thanks for,the help. Aloha

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Al took the words right out of my mouth. I have a steel CBN from Dave but was thinking about buying another one from Ken and his are aluminum. Of course I typically don't grind aluminum on my CBN but it's good to know that cleaning them with Sodium Hydroxide would be a bad thing.

This raises an interesting question I have...though it is a genuine digression. I notice a difference between the wheels I have from Dave and those from Ken. Has anyone done any testing or comparison in quality between CBN grit, bonding, and durability between brands?

 

[robo hippy]

There were some comments about Ken's wheels when they first came out and would the CBN electroplating hold up as well on the aluminum as it does on the steel. I have never heard of any problems that way, and by now, I doubt it is a problem. I have a set of wheels from Dave which have to be 6 or 7 or more years old, can't remember. They barely cut any more, but with exact angles on my platform, it matters little. I need to put a full new set on one of my other grinders and compare. I did that a bit on my shear scraping video, and the new 80 grit CBN wheel left some tear out, and a coarser surface than the old worn out CBN wheel. Maybe another case for taking a 1000X photo of two wheels of the same grit and compare, both new and old wheels. I only have the fine wheels from Ken and not the 180 or 80.

The Trend lapping fluid will put a lot of the sludge off of your wheels. I regularly apply some of it to my bevels with a twisted pipe cleaner (in my platform sharpening video), which works better than pouring a few drops on the wheel and smearing it around with my fingers. I would always get a racing stripe on my smock. Dave did used to soak his wheels in kerosene, which would loosen up a lot of crud. Ajax or Comet work as well. Never tried oven cleaner though which is supposed to work well on that black baked on stuff that can get on your table saw blades...

robo hippy

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Or, just ignore it. The aluminum is a lot softer than the HSS tools that you are sharpening and will wear off. That's probably a good safety lesson. Rotating machinery can grab anything that touches it faster than the blink of an eye.

Definitely a good safety lesson! I'm surprised that never happened to me all these years... I sharpened a nice big NRS several times today, maybe a little bit of the aluminum came off... I think I will try the Drano...

 

[Bill Boehme]

Definitely don't use Drano because in addition to the sodium hydroxide it has a bunch of other unwanted ingredients depending upon which type of Drano product you get. For example the Drano Professional Strength Crystals Clog Remover is about half sodium nitrate and about 5% flakes of aluminum that are there mainly to put on a big show with lots of fizzing and foaming and obviously reduced effectiveness on dissolving the aluminum on the CBN wheel as well as the possibility of discoloring the wheel from residue left behind. Some of the liquid Drano products are mostly sodium hypochlorite (same thing as household laundry bleach except stronger). It would be better to get pure sodium hydroxide ... a low cost plain Jane drain cleaner called Rooto is just sodium hydroxide crystals and less than a third of the cost of Drano. There are several Rooto products ... don't get the liquid stuff because it is buffered sulfuric acid. Here is a picture of the one that you would want to get in order to get 100% sodium hydroxide.



It's also the same chemical that I use for bleaching box elder to a snow white color.

When I was first looking for 100% lye a couple years ago, I bought a product called Insta-Flo Drain Cleaner and discovered that it was not what I wanted because it contains metallic flakes and other unwanted junk.

If it were my CBN wheel, I would just leave things alone. The aluminum isn't hurting anything and will probably eventually wear away. You're nearly as bad as I was about getting a smudge on my Robust lathe when some CA glue dripped on it.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Definitely don't use Drano because in addition to the sodium hydroxide it has a bunch of other unwanted ingredients depending upon which type of Drano product you get. For example the Drano Professional Strength Crystals Clog Remover is about half sodium nitrate and about 5% flakes of aluminum that are there mainly to put on a big show with lots of fizzing and foaming and obviously reduced effectiveness on dissolving the aluminum on the CBN wheel as well as the possibility of discoloring the wheel from residue left behind. Some of the liquid Drano products are mostly sodium hypochlorite (same thing as household laundry bleach except stronger). It would be better to get pure sodium hydroxide ... a low cost plain Jane drain cleaner called Rooto is just sodium hydroxide crystals and less than a third of the cost of Drano. There are several Rooto products ... don't get the liquid stuff because it is buffered sulfuric acid. Here is a picture of the one that you would want to get in order to get 100% sodium hydroxide.

View attachment 24123

It's also the same chemical that I use for bleaching box elder to a snow white color.

When I was first looking for 100% lye a couple years ago, I bought a product called Insta-Flo Drain Cleaner and discovered that it was not what I wanted because it contains metallic flakes and other unwanted junk.

If it were my CBN wheel, I would just leave things alone. The aluminum isn't hurting anything and will probably eventually wear away. You're nearly as bad as I was about getting a smudge on my Robust lathe when some CA glue dripped on it.

Lol, yes, My baldor 8 in grinder plus 2 cbn wheel from David Dway Schweitzer cost as much as some decent entry level lathes. I hate to see the streak on one... I will leave it alone for now, seem to be working... But, I will look for the lye, Thanks! Aloha