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Warped Bowl Turning

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Hello turners, I have some maple bowls that has dried enough to turn( 9% MC ). I rough turned them 3/4 " thick and no checking just warped as I expected. This will be my first experience to turn a warped bowl and I was wondering what is the best approach to turn a warped bowl?

My new 1640 is all set up and ready to go. These bowls will be the first bowls turned on my new Jet lathe. I was supprised how heavy this lathe is and very stable. The rotating head works flawlessly. Will come in handy for larger bowl turning. Thanks for your suggestions. Happy turning.
 

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I jamb chuck the warped bowl over my chuck with the jaws open a bit.
I leave a center point in the tenon. If you don’t have a center point mark one.

Line up the high and low points of the rim. This gives you the biggest bowl you can turn from the warped bowl.

True the outside and true the tenon.

This is a video of a demo I did where I mount and turn a very warped bowl.

Mounting and turning a dried bowl -
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZWsHB4vlM
 
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Glenn Lucas has a novel solution for this. He has discs mounted on faceplates with a second layer with a gap through the middle and rubber faced. He mounts up the bowls with the high sides in the gap centering the rim on the disc and seating the tailstock wherever it hits. If the tenon winds up offcenter of the rim then it gets corrected so the bowl has maximum thickness to turn. You need to plan ahead and use as big a tenon as you can use so there is room for correcting.
After this you can mount the bowl and gently bring it back to round and finish it.
I intend to build one for myself though I'll probably put a tenon on the disc to save my faceplate.
 
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Hi AL, thanks very much. This is a tremendous help for me.
Glenn Lucas has a novel solution for this. He has discs mounted on faceplates with a second layer with a gap through the middle and rubber faced. He mounts up the bowls with the high sides in the gap centering the rim on the disc and seating the tailstock wherever it hits. If the tenon winds up offcenter of the rim then it gets corrected so the bowl has maximum thickness to turn. You need to plan ahead and use as big a tenon as you can use so there is room for correcting.
After this you can mount the bowl and gently bring it back to round and finish it.
I intend to build one for myself though I'll probably put a tenon on the disc to save my faceplate.
Thanks Gary, I was wondering about the tenon and knew that I needed to use a larger tenon to make room for the correcting. It's not a very large bowl, just 6".
 
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At the symposium Al Stirit removes the point from the rotating tail center. He said this was better to position the wood as once the point makes an impression it wants to go back into s the same place.
 

odie

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Lamar......unless you intend to mount to a waste block and faceplate, I probably don't have much advice I can offer you......with the exception that initially taking many very small cuts to get your bowl to round. Getting it to round is probably the most intimidating part of the process for someone who hasn't done it before.

Good luck.....:D

Keep us posted.....

-----odie-----
 

Dennis J Gooding

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I use a method similar to that described by Al Hockenbery, but sometimes with a a couple of twists. Like Al, I remount the bowl over a partly-opened large chuck (usually the one for which the tenon was sized) and bring up the tail center to the center mark left from the original rough turning process and tighten it moderately. If this centers the bowl adequately I am done with this step. If it doesn't, then depending on the nature of the error, I may try tapping the rim of the bowl to shift it on the supporting chuck. If it is clear that the foot of the bowl needs to be re-centered, I insert a small (say 1" x 1") square piece of thin plywood between the foot and the live center and snug up the tail stock. Now, I tap the edge of the bowl foot and/or the rim of the bowl as needed to get the best position. The square of plywood will slide fairly freely over the foot while its opposite side is pinned by the live center. I then tighten the tail stock fully and, optionally, run a bead of CA glue along two opposite sides of the plywood square to hold it permanently. Then I re-turn the bowl tenon.

At this point, I decide whether the bowl is resting stably against the chuck in the head stock. If I have any doubt, I remount the bowl in the chuck by its new tenon and use a flat scraper to turn a shallow groove on the inside of the bowl just large enough to allow the bowl to be re-mounted on the chuck in an expansion mode and bring up the tail stock for further safety.
 
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When roughing the bowl I usually use the tail stock center to provide a center point on
the inside of the bowl and on the tenon, this provides 2 reference points to center from
after drying. Depending on the depth of the roughed bowl I will also provide a tenon or a
recess on the inside of the roughed bowl to allow mounting it in either position. This method
allows me to use the adjustable chuck to secure the roughed bowl and clean up the out of
round tenon or recess. Depending on how far out of round the bowl is the tail stock center
can be used to support the roughed bowl while cleaning up the tenon of recess. After the
first recess or tenon is cleaned up you can reverse mount the roughed bowl and clean up
the 2nd tenon or recess for mounting into the adjustable chuck to finish turning the bowl.
 
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Lamar......unless you intend to mount to a waste block and faceplate, I probably don't have much advice I can offer you......with the exception that initially taking many very small cuts to get your bowl to round. Getting it to round is probably the most intimidating part of the process for someone who hasn't done it before.

Good luck.....:D

Keep us posted.....

-----odie-----
Hi Odie, all day today I have been at the lathe trying different methods that I have read about and from videos and advice from the great turners here on this forum. It has been a slow go so far taking small cuts using a large chuck. Tomorrow I am going to try a waste block and maybe my faceplate. I almost have the bowl round and I need to work on the tenon as it has a warp also. This is a learning process for me and I enjoy working on something challenging.
 
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When roughing the bowl I usually use the tail stock center to provide a center point on
the inside of the bowl and on the tenon, this provides 2 reference points to center from
after drying. Depending on the depth of the roughed bowl I will also provide a tenon or a
recess on the inside of the roughed bowl to allow mounting it in either position. This method
allows me to use the adjustable chuck to secure the roughed bowl and clean up the out of
round tenon or recess. Depending on how far out of round the bowl is the tail stock center
can be used to support the roughed bowl while cleaning up the tenon of recess. After the
first recess or tenon is cleaned up you can reverse mount the roughed bowl and clean up
the 2nd tenon or recess for mounting into the adjustable chuck to finish turning the bowl.
Hi Mike, this is another good idea. Never thought of making a tenon inside the rough bowl. As thick as my rough bowl is at the bottom I'd have plenty of room for a tenon.
 
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I use a method similar to that described by Al Hockenbery, but sometimes with a a couple of twists. Like Al, I remount the bowl over a partly-opened large chuck (usually the one for which the tenon was sized) and bring up the tail center to the center mark left from the original rough turning process and tighten it moderately. If this centers the bowl adequately I am done with this step. If it doesn't, then depending on the nature of the error, I may try tapping the rim of the bowl to shift it on the supporting chuck. If it is clear that the foot of the bowl needs to be re-centered, I insert a small (say 1" x 1") square piece of thin plywood between the foot and the live center and snug up the tail stock. Now, I tap the edge of the bowl foot and/or the rim of the bowl as needed to get the best position. The square of plywood will slide fairly freely over the foot while its opposite side is pinned by the live center. I then tighten the tail stock fully and, optionally, run a bead of CA glue along two opposite sides of the plywood square to hold it permanently. Then I re-turn the bowl tenon.

At this point, I decide whether the bowl is resting stably against the chuck in the head stock. If I have any doubt, I remount the bowl in the chuck by its new tenon and use a flat scraper to turn a shallow groove on the inside of the bowl just large enough to allow the bowl to be re-mounted on the chuck in an expansion mode and bring up the tail stock for further safety.
Thanks Dennis, I can see there are several different ways to turn a green bowl. I know that I can take something from these wonderful suggestions and soon be successful.
 
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Hi Mike, this is another good idea. Never thought of making a tenon inside the rough bowl. As thick as my rough bowl is at the bottom I'd have plenty of room for a tenon.
This is another point Glenn Lucas made in his program. He told us to make the bottom as close to finish thickness as you can and make the sides 10% oversize. This he said reduced the incidence of cracking by a large degree because the bottom did not shrink near as much as the sides. I guess the oversize depends on the wood too, I suspect some varieties distort more than others.
 

hockenbery

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Lamar,
There are lots of ways to return a bowl. Each have advantages.

Focus on the techniques to turn it back to round.
Take small cuts with a sharp gouge.
Don’t let the gouge bounce on the interupted cut.
Getting a clean surface with the interupted cut may be one of the more difficult things to do in woodturning.

You need clean cuts when truing the bowl to round because those cuts are close to the finished surface.
In the video I take my time truing the outside. I work from smooth into the rough gradually bringing the bowl into round. In theory there is a line on the outside of the bowl that does not have to be cut to bring the bowl into round.

Turning NE bowls is great practice for the interupted cut.

He more outdo the better they go.
 
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image.jpeg
Glenn Lucas has a novel solution for this. He has discs mounted on faceplates with a second layer with a gap through the middle and rubber faced. He mounts up the bowls with the high sides in the gap centering the rim on the disc and seating the tailstock wherever it hits. If the tenon winds up offcenter of the rim then it gets corrected so the bowl has maximum thickness to turn. You need to plan ahead and use as big a tenon as you can use so there is room for correcting.
After this you can mount the bowl and gently bring it back to round and finish it.
I intend to build one for myself though I'll probably put a tenon on the disc to save my faceplate.

I broke down and put one together. Hope this makes it clear what I was talking about.
 
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This is another point Glenn Lucas made in his program. He told us to make the bottom as close to finish thickness as you can and make the sides 10% oversize. This he said reduced the incidence of cracking by a large degree because the bottom did not shrink near as much as the sides. I guess the oversize depends on the wood too, I suspect some varieties distort more than others.
That makes since Gary. I left my bowls an 1" thick at the bottom but I was lucky that I have no cracks in my green bowls so far. My green bowls are all maple.
 
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Lamar,
There are lots of ways to return a bowl. Each have advantages.

Focus on the techniques to turn it back to round.
Take small cuts with a sharp gouge.
Don’t let the gouge bounce on the interupted cut.
Getting a clean surface with the interupted cut may be one of the more difficult things to do in woodturning.

You need clean cuts when truing the bowl to round because those cuts are close to the finished surface.
In the video I take my time truing the outside. I work from smooth into the rough gradually bringing the bowl into round. In theory there is a line on the outside of the bowl that does not have to be cut to bring the bowl into round.

Turning NE bowls is great practice for the interupted cut.

He more outdo the better they go.
Hi Al, that is exactly what I'm doing is taking small cuts with a sharp gouge. I have the bowl I'm working own almost round. I see that working real slow is your friend when rounding a green bowl. I saw how you made small cuts on the outside of the bowl it in your video.
 

Dennis J Gooding

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View attachment 23539

I broke down and put one together. Hope this makes it clear what I was talking about.

That should work well Gary, particularly for bowls that have shrunk symmetrically. However, sometimes you may encounter ones that are badly distorted, e.g., crotches or blanks cut from tension wood. In those cases, lining up the rims may not yield the best bowl, and you need an initial mounting method that gives you more flexibility for adjustment. As a production bowl turner, Glenn Lucas probably would have tossed those pieces.
 
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That should work well Gary, particularly for bowls that have shrunk symmetrically. However, sometimes you may encounter ones that are badly distorted, e.g., crotches or blanks cut from tension wood. In those cases, lining up the rims may not yield the best bowl, and you need an initial mounting method that gives you more flexibility for adjustment. As a production bowl turner, Glenn Lucas probably would have tossed those pieces.
Dennis it seems to me that maple wood distorts badly or is it just me? My first green maple bowls that I rough turned air dried in 3 months in a humidity controlled atmosphere...... I don't know if that soon of drying time had anything to do with major warping?
 
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That should work well Gary, particularly for bowls that have shrunk symmetrically. However, sometimes you may encounter ones that are badly distorted, e.g., crotches or blanks cut from tension wood. In those cases, lining up the rims may not yield the best bowl, and you need an initial mounting method that gives you more flexibility for adjustment. As a production bowl turner, Glenn Lucas probably would have tossed those pieces.
Glenn made mention of that and was of the opinion the asymmetrical bowl can be saved with this jig. Most likely depends on how bad off they are. Would love to see him do that at some point.
 

Dennis J Gooding

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Glenn made mention of that and was of the opinion the asymmetrical bowl can be saved with this jig. Most likely depends on how bad off they are. Would love to see him do that at some point.

One possibility, if you can establish that one lobe of the bowl is too long, is to saw or turn off a bit of it and try again. Repeat as necessary.
 

hockenbery

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I try to get symmetrical grain in twice turned bowls.
This of course produces symmetrical warp.
It also generally produces the most pleasing grain pattern in the bottom of the bowl.
It also has a high success rate in drying.

I cut my blanks from the centers of half logs and I align the grain when roughing.

Crotch grain I turn as natural edge bowl and let it warp into more pleasing shapes
It will warp with symmetry if the two branches have near equal diameter however the warp symmetry is rarely centered on the center of the bowl like it is with straight grained wood.
 
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After trying many methods of turning a warped bowl, I found out what works best for me it to use my faceplate mounted to the inside of the bowl and work on the foot and outside of the bowl first. After the bowl is round I then mount the bowl to the tenon/mortise and work the inside of the bowl. I guess turners have find out what works best for them. Thank you all for your comments and ideas.
 
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After trying many methods of turning a warped bowl, I found out what works best for me it to use my faceplate mounted to the inside of the bowl and work on the foot and outside of the bowl first. After the bowl is round I then mount the bowl to the tenon/mortise and work the inside of the bowl. I guess turners have find out what works best for them. Thank you all for your comments and ideas.

Lamar, are you actually screwing the faceplate to the inside? I use the tailstock to apply pressure against a chuck that’s inside the bowl — friction driving it to clean up the tenon — then flip the bowl around and use the chuck to grip. Because the warping also affects the inside bottom, a small contact area isn’t affected as much as a large one. Since I’m only cleaning up the tenon, the inside contact supports that small area.
 
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Lamar, are you actually screwing the faceplate to the inside? I use the tailstock to apply pressure against a chuck that’s inside the bowl — friction driving it to clean up the tenon — then flip the bowl around and use the chuck to grip. Because the warping also affects the inside bottom, a small contact area isn’t affected as much as a large one. Since I’m only cleaning up the tenon, the inside contact supports that small area.
Hi Owen, yes, what I do is when I turn a green bowl I always leave enough thickness inside the bowl to mount the FP with #10 wood screws knowing that when I clean up the inside of the bowl will take care of the screw holes. I adjust the FP to where the bowl turns the smoothest without a lot of wobble. It works for me, however, your method sounds good to me! Does the tailstock get in your way cleaning the tenon up?
 

hockenbery

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Lamar I do much the same thing as Owen describes. I also shape therm and the outside of the bowl when it is jam chucked over a chuck with the jaws open a bit. You could use this method to just true the tenon.

Anything that works is fine but when you leave wood for screws you need a thick bottom.
I generally turn the bottoms of my roughouts a little thinner that the sides which helps in drying.
And this leaves no wood for screws

To see the tenon being shaped
Fast forward to 15:41 and you can see the tenon being trued with the tailstock in place.
Mounting and turning a dried bowl -
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZWsHB4vlM
 
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Lamar I do much the same thing as Owen describes. I also shape therm and the outside of the bowl when it is jam chucked over a chuck with the jaws open a bit. You could use this method to just true the tenon.

Anything that works is fine but when you leave wood for screws you need a thick bottom.
I generally turn the bottoms of my roughouts a little thinner that the sides which helps in drying.
And this leaves no wood for screws

To see the tenon being shaped
Fast forward to 15:41 and you can see the tenon being trued with the tailstock in place.
Mounting and turning a dried bowl -
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZWsHB4vlM
Hi AL, I see what you and Owen were talking about using an expansion chuck to hold the bowl in place. As you said in your Demo video, it is a lot faster to use your method. My tenon was a lot more warped than the bowl in your video. I see though how you trued the tenon with the tailstock in place. Simple and easy. I have several green bowls that should to turn in several months and I'll sure true them with your method. Being new to bowl turning I was a little reluctant using the chuck thinking the bowl might come off. Using enough pressure from the tailstock against the chuck I see now that there is no reason the bowl should come off. Thanks Al.
 

hockenbery

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Hi AL, I see what you and Owen were talking about using an expansion chuck to hold the bowl in place. As you said in your Demo video, it is a lot faster to use your method. My tenon was a lot more warped than the bowl in your video. I see though how you trued the tenon with the tailstock in place. Simple and easy. I have several green bowls that should to turn in several months and I'll sure true them with your method. Being new to bowl turning I was a little reluctant using the chuck thinking the bowl might come off. Using enough pressure from the tailstock against the chuck I see now that there is no reason the bowl should come off. Thanks Al.

As long as you have a tailstock that locks in place well and have solid wood, turning between centers and jamb chucking over a chuck are stronger ways to mount wood than a chuck.

I leave the center point from roughing in the tenon. This is a good center to use for bowls with balanced grain.
If I don’t have a center point the tenon will be an ellipse shape. I find the midpoints of the long axis and the short axis of the ellipse and use that.
 
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Hi Owen, yes, what I do is when I turn a green bowl I always leave enough thickness inside the bowl to mount the FP with #10 wood screws knowing that when I clean up the inside of the bowl will take care of the screw holes. I adjust the FP to where the bowl turns the smoothest without a lot of wobble. It works for me, however, your method sounds good to me! Does the tailstock get in your way cleaning the tenon up?

As Al commented, a screw-attached faceplate on the inside requires leaving a fair bit of extra-extra bottom thickness. I’d be concerned about really long drying times and cracking developing due to the thickness. I routinely follow a 10% wall and 7% bottom guideline for rough-out thickness for side grain bowls. (A 14” bowl gets about 1.4” for wall thickness and about 1” in the bottom with a blend between the two.) The bottom will not warp to anywhere near the degree the sides will, so can be markedly thinner. Both calculations allow interior and exterior cleanup and refining. It works for me, the woods I use, and my drying conditions.

For re-truing the tenon, I am really only concerned with the roundness of the tenon and the consistent squareness of where it meets the bowl exterior (where the chuck’s jaws contact the main body of the bowl). The tenons are generally 3-4.5 inches in diameter, so I’m not usually fighting for space with the tailstock. I use a combination of spindle gouge, bedan, and/or scraper to get things round and square. My goal is to remove as little as will get things true so that a lot of support is maintained for reworking the bowl.
 
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As Al commented, a screw-attached faceplate on the inside requires leaving a fair bit of extra-extra bottom thickness. I’d be concerned about really long drying times and cracking developing due to the thickness. I routinely follow a 10% wall and 7% bottom guideline for rough-out thickness for side grain bowls. (A 14” bowl gets about 1.4” for wall thickness and about 1” in the bottom with a blend between the two.) The bottom will not warp to anywhere near the degree the sides will, so can be markedly thinner. Both calculations allow interior and exterior cleanup and refining. It works for me, the woods I use, and my drying conditions.

For re-truing the tenon, I am really only concerned with the roundness of the tenon and the consistent squareness of where it meets the bowl exterior (where the chuck’s jaws contact the main body of the bowl). The tenons are generally 3-4.5 inches in diameter, so I’m not usually fighting for space with the tailstock. I use a combination of spindle gouge, bedan, and/or scraper to get things round and square. My goal is to remove as little as will get things true so that a lot of support is maintained for reworking the bowl.
The bowl that I was working with (when dried) had a lot of shrinkage and it was a small bowl ( 5" ) warped to almost to an oval shape. No cracks just warped real bad. Being new to bowl turning this was my first bowl that dried enough (Maple 9% MC) to turn. The tenon was small (2.5"). I've learned a lot since turning that bowl. After finishing the bowl the OD was 4.2". Green bowls I turn now I follow the 10% rule. I should have some Maple and Cherry rough turned bowls dry enough to turn in a few months and I will use the expansion chuck method rather than using the FP. I have learned to turn the tenon a little larger also. Thanks Owen for you and also Als ideas on how you turn your green bowls. I don't leave the bottom of the bowls as thick as I did since I will be using the chuck.
 
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Glenn Lucas has a novel solution for this. He has discs mounted on faceplates with a second layer with a gap through the middle and rubber faced. He mounts up the bowls with the high sides in the gap centering the rim on the disc and seating the tailstock wherever it hits. If the tenon winds up offcenter of the rim then it gets corrected so the bowl has maximum thickness to turn. You need to plan ahead and use as big a tenon as you can use so there is room for correcting.
After this you can mount the bowl and gently bring it back to round and finish it.
I intend to build one for myself though I'll probably put a tenon on the disc to save my faceplate.
He mentioned in his Seattle demo that on a large bowl, the tenon can, indeed, warp off-center to the bowl. I guess if you turn a couple or three thousand bowls per year, you need a really quick way of centering these bowls Here's a picture of the demo slide-show that shows a bowl mounted (thought it doesn't seem severely warped).
Lucas Warped BowlRdx.jpg
 

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In my early days I made a lot of bowls without paying much attention to grain orientation. symmetrical grain orientation usually leaves a bowl so the warp is symmetrical as Al said. If the grain isn't balanced then the bowl warps all kinds of funny ways and will also through the tenon off. I used to use a large wooden faceplate with lined drawn on it. I would center the outer rim of the bowl on this as best I could and then turn the tenon true by using the tailstock. I found that I had to remove the center pin of a cupped tailstock to be able to fine adjust the centering. I turn the bottom plus the tenon the same thickness as the sides to help it dry more evenly and not crack. The bottom doesn't warp as much so you can get away with that. I think John Jordan is the one who told me that and saved me a lot of headaches.
 
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