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Bowl Gouge Flute Shapes

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Bowl gouge flutes are variously labeled “V-shaped”, “U-shaped”, “Parabolic-shaped”, and “Compromise-shaped”, etc. I’d be interested in users’ experience with the different styles of flute and what makes any one more suitable for a given type of turning. This is closely related to the different possible grinds, which should be considered as well in responding. Thank you.
 

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There are some recent threads discussing this topic. I believe that the answer is personal preference. Everybody has a reason that they like a particular flute shape. However, different flute shapes can fill a need for a particular purpose such as a "bottom feeder" or hogging out wood or shear cutting. Personally, I don't like the narrow V flutes nor the broad U flutes, but that's just me and my two cents.
 

john lucas

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I love my V shaped Thompson. I also have an older HSS tool that has a deep wide flute. I like it for certain pull cuts because the way I sharpen it the "wings" are very thin and super sharp. Flute shape is a discussion that can go on forever. I think basically it's the shape you use the most. That's the one you learn to use and sharpen and consequently like the best.
 

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Flute shapes become important for certain grinds and certain cuts.
Flute shape is less important if you don’t use a grind or cut tha works better with a particular flute.

I like the parabolic flute or the super flute for the Ellsworth grind and find it produces a better profile and more usable edge.
I use a shear cut with the leading edge of the wing. This cut is easy for me with a parabolic flute. Really challenging with a fee flute.

Vee flutes are nice for pull cuts and peeling cuts which use only the wing.

My favorite gouge has become the Jamieson mae by Thompson.
The flute takes the Elsworthnquite nicely.
I also have a Thompson Vee I just use for roughing and for some pull cuts this gouge is just too point for me.
I also have a bunch of Henry Taylor gouges and a crown with thenparabolic flute.
 
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I tend to hold my gouges more level for finish cuts as opposed to the dropped handle cuts that many use. For my style, the more open flutes like the U and parabolic work better for me because they give the nose a bigger sweet spot. I don't use a swept back grind at all any more. I use scrapers for all of my roughing cuts, and for all of my shear scraping. My go to scraper is a Big Ugly tool that is 1 inch wide and 3/8 thick. I can easily stall my 3 hp Robust with it. I am a bit of a brute... I did try the V from Glaser long time ago, and it was way too deep of a V and plugged up a lot. Doug's V is more open than the Glaser.

robo hippy
 

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I made mine using a round over mill. The finish on the inside of mine sucks but then I'm not a good machinist and don't have quality equipment to do the job. It does work and lets me play with shapes to learn more about flute shapes and that's why I tried making my own. Ideally a horizontal mill with a custom made cutter so you could make V, U or other shapes or possibly a surface grinder with a custom ground stone for finishing.
 
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I made mine using a round over mill. The finish on the inside of mine sucks but then I'm not a good machinist and don't have quality equipment to do the job. It does work and lets me play with shapes to learn more about flute shapes and that's why I tried making my own. Ideally a horizontal mill with a custom made cutter so you could make V, U or other shapes or possibly a surface grinder with a custom ground stone for finishing.
Whats the difference between a round over mill and a ball endmill? Im wanting the u shape.
 

john lucas

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Mike posted what I call a round over bit. A ball end actually looks like a ball. What Bill showed I call a radius bit.
 

Bill Boehme

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John, the ones that have an actual ball on the end are called undercutting mills or sometimes referred to as lollipop mills.

The picture that Mike posted is a ball end mill. Woodworkers refer to router bits like that as cove cutting bits or sometimes as veining bits if they are small.

The one that I posted above is a roundover mill because it is used to round over square corners. Router bits that resemble a roundover mill are called by various names depending on whether they have a bearing, a sharp point, or a square tip, etc.
 
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I'm over a year late on this thread but feel like dropping my oar into the water. I was looking for a current list of parabolic fluted bowl gouges and saw a discussion on Sawmilll Creek (from back in 2013) that had a bit of confusion on what the shapes are - one said elliptical and one parabolic.

As I am "Murph Says" I will define the undefined.

The V-shape is the letter V with the bottom cut off and rounded. The shape at the bottom depends on how much of the bottom of the letter is cut off and rounded. Once it becomes the V the sides are straight lines that would extend to infinity.

The U-shape is the letter U with the top cut off. It is half a circle then the sides extend vertically to infinity. Whether the sides actually get to vertical on a particular gouge is a matter of where "the top is cut off". The U-shapes I've seen never quite make vertical, so they might actually be elliptical (but I won't argue that matter).

A parabola is a conic section (as are a circle, and ellipse and a hyperbola - but not a V or a U). Oops, I'm getting hyperbolic <vbg>. It is a steady curve of ever diminishing curvature extending to infinity without ever becoming a straight line, or curving back in (as an ellipse does). The shape can vary depending of the angle of intersection with the cone, but the curve is continuous.

Back to practicality. If you are shaping your bowl gouges with the long wings of the Irish or Ellsworth form the parabolic(or Super Flute, or whatever it may be called) is likely to work best if you are using a grinding jig. As you roll the tool on the wheel with the jig you are changing the bevel at a steady rate from positive at the tip to negative on the wings. If you have the great hands and grinding skills (which I lack) to grind your bowl gouge freehand then you can make your own steady curve on the wings with a standard V-shape flute.

The object of the exercise is to have a grind that doesn't surprise you when you change the angle of attack slightly - you want a smooth transition from one cut to another. If your preference of grind is the traditional with short wings then the true V or the parabolic doesn't matter much, but if it is long wings I'd go for the parabolic.

One more point. It doesn't matter which parabolic (a steep or a shallow), you can get used to either.

Best. Jon
 

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I tend to hold my gouges more level for finish cuts as opposed to the dropped handle cuts that many use. For my style, the more open flutes like the U and parabolic work better for me because they give the nose a bigger sweet spot. I don't use a swept back grind at all any more. I use scrapers for all of my roughing cuts, and for all of my shear scraping. My go to scraper is a Big Ugly tool that is 1 inch wide and 3/8 thick. I can easily stall my 3 hp Robust with it. I am a bit of a brute... I did try the V from Glaser long time ago, and it was way too deep of a V and plugged up a lot. Doug's V is more open than the Glaser.

robo hippy

Whereas, I enthusiastically agree with Robo, when I say that I've pretty much abandoned the swept back grind shapes as well.....I haven't gone as far as replacing the versatility of gouges with scrapers. (This is not to conclude that scrapers don't have a special place in the scheme of the finer points of turning!) Regardless, I have come to really love the more traditional gouge grind done without the special jigs that produce all those specialty swept back grind shapes. The traditional grind is done with a Wolverine "V" arm and the gouge is ground with the tool rotating on it's longitudinal axis.

-----odie-----
 
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odie

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There are some recent threads discussing this topic. I believe that the answer is personal preference. Everybody has a reason that they like a particular flute shape. However, different flute shapes can fill a need for a particular purpose such as a "bottom feeder" or hogging out wood or shear cutting. Personally, I don't like the narrow V flutes nor the broad U flutes, but that's just me and my two cents.

Getting back to the original topic here.......I'm in sync with Bill, in that my preference for flute shapes is more in in the middle of the possible options. I agree with Robo that the more pointy V shaped flute is less useful than a more parabolic shape......but, that the parabolic shape can be too extreme at the other end of the spectrum, as well.

Of course.....this post, and my last post are a reflection of what works for me, and not to say there isn't more than one way to skin a cat! :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
 
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Supposedly, the original version of the saying was about skinning cat fish, not kitty cats....

I am actually kind of surprised that there are not more gouges with a half round inside profile. Most of the detail gouges are that way, and it is a very versatile shape and can take just about any grind/nose profile... Not sure if the parabolic is really any better, but for sure it is more difficult to produce.

robo hippy
 

odie

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I am actually kind of surprised that there are not more gouges with a half round inside profile. Most of the detail gouges are that way, and it is a very versatile shape and can take just about any grind/nose profile... Not sure if the parabolic is really any better, but for sure it is more difficult to produce.

robo hippy

Hiya Robo........I've experimented some with the differences between the half round, and parabolic flutes in conjunction with a traditional grind. My conclusion is the parabolic is more controllable. This, I believe to be because there is a more pronounced curve from the outermost point of the wing, to the tip.....with the half round. I'm not completely sure that is the reason, but I do know that I was having less control issues when I compared it to a traditional grind on a parabolic flute. Of course, this is just my personal observation, and I make no promises that anyone else will conclude similarly.

On another note......you and I seem to be in a very small minority of turners who have abandoned the "swept back" grind shapes altogether, or mostly. I'm not sure how to define "swept back" so that everyone will agree, but for my purposes, a swept back grind would be any grind produced on a vari-grind jig, or any of the many jigs that use the same basic concept. (There are swept back grinds produced on a platform, free-hand style, and I include those in my definition......but, I think free-hand grinding is not used by many turners.)

All of my comments are for bowl turning exclusively, and may not apply to spindle turning.......heck, they may not apply to other bowl turners, as they see things! :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
 
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I guess like turners, there are many variations. I have little or no sweep to my SRGs. Other than that, I just don't go past about 45 degrees of sweep. My BOB tools are all ) shaped on the nose, and I don't use any of the swept way back types where sweep is in the 60 to 70 degree range. Don't care for the long wings. A video I will do some day...

Have to get into the new shop first....

robo hippy
 

Bill Boehme

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I guess like turners, there are many variations. I have little or no sweep to my SRGs. Other than that, I just don't go past about 45 degrees of sweep. My BOB tools are all ) shaped on the nose, and I don't use any of the swept way back types where sweep is in the 60 to 70 degree range. Don't care for the long wings. A video I will do some day...

Have to get into the new shop first....

robo hippy

Oops. :oops: I guess that I forgot that a SRG is a gouge. So, to correct what I said, I do have two spindle roughing gouges that aren't swept back.
 

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not sure how to define "swept back" so that everyone will agree,

Gouge Grinds are defined by the profile.
How the tool is sharpened has nothing to do with defining the grind.

The chart below was in the AAW journal article by Joe Larese - October 2011
Traditional is straight across the way most spindle roughing gouges are sharpened.
Wings vary from about 1/2” to 3”
The Ellsworth grind has about a 3/4” wing.

Article is available here
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.woodturner.org/resource/resmgr/fundamentals/guidetogouges.pdf

1D0BDAA9-3F58-4B5A-A854-E0531F722DC8.jpeg
 

odie

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Gouge Grinds are defined by the profile.
How the tool is sharpened has nothing to do with defining the grind.

The chart below was in the AAW journal article by Joe Larese - October 2011
Traditional is straight across the way most spindle roughing gouges are sharpened.
Wings vary from about 1/2” to 3”
The Ellsworth grind has about a 3/4” wing.

Everyone has an opinion, Al.......My definition of a traditional grind has been in existence long before there was an AAW. It isn't a grind with a straight frontal with no wings, exclusively. It has wings that curve back, and is produced by rotating the tool on it's longitudinal axis. We can re-name, or re-define what has been used since the first deep flute bowl gouges were being produced, but the the technical means by which it is ground is unchanged since a time long before Ellsworth first introduced his specialty grind. It's understood that the traditional grind needed to be identified after the introduction of the methods used to produce the swept back grinds by the Ellsworth jig, vari-grind, etc......because there now needed to be a distinction between the two.

You can call it what you wish, and point to an article that expresses an opinion and published......but, I've been grinding a traditional grind with swept back wings since the early 1980's......same as many other turners back then.

-----odie-----
 

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Everyone has an opinion, Al.......My definition of a traditional grind has been in existence long before there was an AAW. ...

We could also say that the traditional grind was in existence long before there was an Odie. :D Just to clear things up, the AAW isn't an authoritative body that standardizes terms and definitions. The AAW does promote education and sharing of information through various publications, the annual symposium, and this forum. Various terms are derived by consensus or from an historical perspective. And, sometimes, just as with everything else in life, there is still misunderstanding.

Many of us come up with a favorite grind that might be a derivative of something else that was incrementally modified over time. We can call it whatever we wish, but if we call it a traditional grind or an Irish grind then we shouldn't be too surprised to discover that there is a breakdown in communications.

We can get just about any shape that we want using a jig so I agree with Al that whether or not a jig is used doesn't help with defining any particular grind. I can agree that when or if there were only one grind sometime in the past then there would be no need for naming. I'm not so sure that such a condition ever actually existed. When woodturners had to make their own tools, they made them to suit their particular needs and there wasn't any sharing of information.
 

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I think that a swept back grind is any shape that isn't straight across. All of my gouges have at least some sweep on the wings. The only problem with a straight across shape is that there are sharp corners at the top of the flute.
I grind the sharp corners off a little of my bottom feeder...
 

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I can agree that when or if there were only one grind sometime in the past then there would be no need for naming. I'm not so sure that such a condition ever actually existed.

Good overall post, Bill.......:D

I do have one comment here. I never said there was only one grind that is produced by what I call a "traditional grind". In fact there are many grinds that can be done this way. There can be a very blunted straight across grind, that is represented in Al's photographic example, and labeled the "traditional" grind. This grind is what we all commonly use for grinding our SRG's. Besides that, the angle of the traditional grind can vary, along with the amount of steel removed on the sides, or wings......which does produce a "swept back" grind......just not as pronounced of swept back that is possible by using one of the various vari-grind style of jigs. For my purposes, all of these grinds, as long as they are produced by rotating the gouge on the longitudinal axis, are what I would call a traditional grind.......and truly, all of them were in existence prior to the existence of the turner, known as "odie"! ;)

-----odie-----
 
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l will throw my two cents worth into this topic just because I can. I am primarily a bowl man that likes to make an art piece also. Since I have probably made over a thousand bowls to sell over the years I will only refer my preferences for flute shape for bowl making.I have developed a preference for a u shaped flute for the hollowing of the inside of a bowl, and a v shaped for the outside of a bowl. I can and have done both inside and outside with both and had no real problems. Preferences to me means the method I mentioned works the best for me. The u shaped flute seems to make cutting from the rim through the transition and to the bottom easier. I am of course talking about the main cuts whether they are first or rough cuts on a green bowl or the rough cuts on a dried bowl. To me finish cuts are similar but usually done with a second grind to remove the heel and also done much slower and bottom feeders make life so much easier but I digress. I really don't care what type flute you use just use it long enough to get proficient with it.
 

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Cat got your tongue? :D

I think that you might have uncovered a software bug. Normally if you hit the "Post Reply" button without entering any text you will get an error message. Do you recall the circumstances that enabled an empty post? If so, I will report it to XenForo as a possible bug.
 

hockenbery

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My definition of a traditional grind has been in existence long before there was an AAW. It isn't a grind with a straight frontal with no wings, exclusively. It has wings that curve back, and is produced by rotating the tool on it's longitudinal axis.

It certainly helps us to communicate when we have a common vocabulary.

A super flute gouge ground straight across gets a small wing because of the thinner walls at the top of the flute.
A small wing or straight across are to me an English, standard or traditional grind. These are terms woodturners I associate with use.

When the wings increase in length at some measure the grind stops being traditional.

Henry Taylor calls the short wing (1/2”) - a modified standard grind.

Richard Raffan has a nice short video . He profiles the edge and calls it a finger nail grind.
Probably swept back a bit more than your grind but sharpened the same as you describe your sharpening. Straight on to the wheel. Great video for anyone sharpening a gouge out of the box.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/09/01/grinding-a-bowl-gouge
 

hockenbery

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Cat got your tongue? :D

I think that you might have uncovered a software bug. Normally if you hit the "Post Reply" button without entering any text you will get an error message. Do you recall the circumstances that enabled an empty post? If so, I will report it to XenForo as a possible bug.

Sorry I broke your software :)

When composing the posted message above.
I highlighted the quotes.
In the new post in
I pasted the link to the Raffan video then inserted the quotes.
With the link first everything got underlined like link. Didn’t like that.

erased the link everything still under lined. So erased everything hit save to get a blank template didn’t notice whether I go the usual error for empty post. then I did the post.


For fun it tried looking at the empty message in the editor. It looks blank
When I edited the empty message and saved it without doing anything it give an empty message error.

Tried doing it again didn’t post. Might have left something out.
 
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Bill Boehme

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Thanks for the information, Al. That definitely is an annoying problem when using the rich text editor and inserting a link. It will behave exactly as you described. There are three workarounds:
  • One workaround is to type something after the text that you plan to highlight for the link. Then highlight the text and proceed as normal to insert the link.
  • The second workaround is similar to the first, but just insert the link directly after typing all of the text.
  • The last workaround is to switch from rich text editor to the view that shows the bb code (the button on the far right of the editor box). This can be a bit more intimidating for anyone not familiar with the basics of bb code or HTML. Anyway, if you feel comfortable/brave/foolish then just make sure that the text that you add is outside of the [URL] .... [/URL] markup tags.
 

odie

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Richard Raffan has a nice short video . He profiles the edge and calls it a finger nail grind.
Probably swept back a bit more than your grind but sharpened the same as you describe your sharpening. Straight on to the wheel. Great video for anyone sharpening a gouge out of the box.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/09/01/grinding-a-bowl-gouge

Interesting video and thanks for the link, Al......

Not quite the same as I do it, as I am not using a platform, but the Wolverine "V" arm for my traditional grinds. Regardless, I do have a soft spot for Richard Raffan, as he influenced me with his book when it first came out in the late 80's IIRC......then his first video, when that came out a little later.

As for the terminology, maybe it's best you understand what I mean, when I say "traditional grind"......because it would be impossible to get everyone on board with terminology that everyone agreed with.......maybe Bill would say it's like trying to "herd cats"! :D

-----odie-----
 
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I love cats, and dogs - I've shared my various homes with both. Dogs are pack animals, they are attached to their family rather than place. Cats, on the other hand, are territorial. As the old phrase goes, dogs have owners - cats have servants. My first pet as a child (aside from the neighbor's dog) was a cat. My English mother wouldn't allow me a dog as we didn't have space for it to run (we lived on a quarter acre, but bordered on about 20 acres of woodland, but that wasn't enough for an English dog lover). I sneaked a kitten into the house (from a neighbor's litter) and we kept him. Over the years I've enjoyed the company of dogs and cats depending on my location. Here's to both!

OK, back to the real topic. My diatribe on flute shapes, and their effect on the end result of sharpening, was an attempt to visualize the differences. We can speak of the Ellsworth grind, or the Irish grind - or Glaser of traditional, but the actual shape of the cutting surface varies with both flute shape and sharpening. It is all shades of grey rather than a specific form. And that seems to be the consensus of this thread - find what you like and use a jig that can repeat it perfectly for your "go to" tools. The best steels are expensive and it is nice to remove as little steel as possible when sharpening. To that end I find my CBN wheels (180 with rounded edge, for my home made Ellsworth hollowing cutters and 80 for the reshaping, to be economical. I've had them for 3 or 4 years and they still are perfect - I've covered the initial price several times over by not having to replace stone wheels, and always getting the same radius.

I play with grinds, I buy Benjamin's Best tools from PSI when I want to experiment. A fine firm, I'm an hour from their home shop outside Philly. I have "bottom feeders" of my own grind, a Thompson 1/2 and a Thompson 5/8 (US measure) U flutes. But I did some testing on cheaper steel (actually old gouges too short for the Wolverine jig, but flattened to fit it). My "bottom feeders" are what is referred to as "traditional grind", but with the left/upper wing ground back a bit. The nice thing is that I can change my "go to's" from an 80 dg tip bevel to a 70 dg, or in between, with little loss of steel.

I agree with everyone, the best "grind" is the one you like best and can best use. But also there are times when you might prefer another grind, or an experiment. That is what those el cheapo gouges are for, they are test beds. I'm an Ellsworth grind fan for my "go to" bowl gouges, but I'm not against using a different flute shape with a secondary bevel (or different bevel) for a specific piece. And my "Ellsworth grind" isn't exactly as David does it, over time I've found my own modifications.

I confess to spending a few bucks for simplicity of duplication (and innovation). I am a devotee of Don Geiger's Vertical Solution (no longer sold, he has a cheaper version that uses distance settings instead). The Oneway V arm does the same, in combination with the Wolverine jig, but takes a bit more work to set up. I'll leave with a teaser. The grind is three dimensional and is a combination of different dimensions and angles that can produce the same result. The "center height" above the Vee, the extension of the tip from the jig, the angle of the leg of the jig, the distance of the Vee from the wheel. Sounds complicated, but it really isn't. I originally had the 60 dg. gauge from Don's original package (a half round metal rod ground to the angle). I discovered that by setting the Vee and the leg to one dimension and adjusting to the gauge for 60 dgs. I could get another shape by changing the leg angle.I was making 30 dg. bevel detail gouges off the 60 dg. gauge. A bit of thinking and I made a 45 dg. gauge, and a 30 dg. gauge to expand the range.

I am not one for strict rules, but I do like a strict duplication of a grind I've already made - it saves expensive steel. I'll say goodnight, as I'm full of Molson's Golden (my favorite) and it is early in the morning. I'll detail the ways to use a gauge and the angles to make any shape if asked.
 

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I just wrote an article for Woodturning Fundamentals on sharpening bowl gouges. I picked 3 shapes and obviously had to simply put a photo in of the 3 shapes and give them a name. Hopefully they are at least close to what we each call a traditional, Irish, etc. It should be coming out in the next week I think. It's obviously a generalization on sharpening since there are so many different ways. I simply tried to write down the most common ways to sharpen each grind so that a beginner can have some place to begin.
 

odie

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I just wrote an article for Woodturning Fundamentals on sharpening bowl gouges. I picked 3 shapes and obviously had to simply put a photo in of the 3 shapes and give them a name. Hopefully they are at least close to what we each call a traditional, Irish, etc. It should be coming out in the next week I think. It's obviously a generalization on sharpening since there are so many different ways. I simply tried to write down the most common ways to sharpen each grind so that a beginner can have some place to begin.

That's probably the best way to go about it, John.......just call 'em as you see 'em, and don't worry about what anyone else's definition is. It's mostly the newbies who want hard definitions and strict rules across the board, and maybe a turning instructor here and there......but, it is what it is.....and, the rest of us will understand that the only rule is......there ain't no rules! :eek:......(well, except there is more than one way to skin a cat.......fish! :rolleyes: )

For the rest of us reality based turners......we'll just have to get used to the idea that if we don't understand what someone means.....ask for an explanation! :D

-----odie-----
 
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