• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Where is wood turning going?

Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
I hope to turn wood for many years and just a fact of life, I can't afford hobbies, there has to be some expectation of profit involved in the long term. Ideally, I want to get paid for doing something I would pay to do if I could afford to!

As I look at wood turnings here and on other sites I am uncertain of the path wood turning seems to be taking. Post processing seems to be taking precedence over the turning itself in many instances. Fantastic wonderful pieces of art but it matters little or nothing that some are turnings, matters little or nothing that some are made of wood. they could as easily be ceramic or any manmade armature that the artist started with as a base form and built on. Not possible to simply look at the object and realize that it was turned on a wood lathe or even that it is wood.

There is a place for the extensive post processing. However I have to admit that it simply isn't what I want to do. I have already made my living doing the extensive post processing. When I recarved auto body shapes from plastic filler and then sprayed what was basically a plastic coating over the work it was little different from what I see some of the wood turnings become. It was a process that I was quite good at, people had to wait six months or more to get a vehicle into my shop which sounds ridiculous even to me. This isn't a process I want to go back to however. I don't even want to turn very elaborate pieces except possibly the occasional change of pace piece. Hopefully in time I'll manage to turn some simple elegant pieces with maybe a few embellishments on some. That with a simple sealer type finish that leaves the texture of the wood exposed is the goal for my work.

Looking into your crystal balls, is there a demand for this type of work not only today but five or ten years in the future? Will there always be a demand? Will it become such a small niche it basically reaches the vanishing point with only a very very few people able to market this type of piece? I am interested in primarily art pieces, bowls and hollow forms, not primarily pieces to be used.

All opinions are most welcome. I'm trying to see into a very cloudy future and those just starting also and those that have been turning for a lifetime can all have insight to offer.

Thank you for your thoughts!

Hu
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,886
Likes
5,169
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
It is probably a good thing that making fancy artsy fartsy stuff isn't your bag because as is the case with the vast majority of us, it won't help you achieve your goal of woodturning paying its own way if you take that route. Once a woodturner has "arrived" in the art world, the prospects are much rosier. For everybody else, striving to create art is mostly an exercise in self satisfaction from the whole creative process.Several members of my club get income from craft shows by selling pens, peppermills, bowls, Christmas ornaments and snowmen and Santa nutcrackers. Don't expect to make much money, but enough to pay for itself and maybe a bit more. Your per hour wage will be below the poverty level if that matters.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
114
Likes
1
Location
Central Washington State, the dry side.
room for everything

Good point to ponder-
Looking back it appears there has long been a demand for roundish, container-esque vessels formed from wood and finished clear. Looks like there has also been a place for art pieces that may or may not have seen a lathe somewhere in the process. I can't predict the future but the past is usually indicative. I started turning in 2010 (20 hours a week) and quickly found a mentor that helped me develop the skills to make presentable wooden containers, bowls, platters, hollowforms, vases etc. He has also helped me explore well beyond the lathe into the realms of color, texture, design, embellishment, mixed media as well learning to market my work. I'd like it if my wood art hobby/compulsion/obsession/jones/habit would, at least to some degree, pay it's own way- more important as I contemplate retirement but I still want the freedom to be able to mostly make based on my imagination versus my wallet. I think there will always be a market- for everything- I just need to find it. There are 6 billion people here on the 3rd Rock. For each piece I decide to sign I'm only looking for one of 'em.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
took a slight pay cut years ago

Bill,

When I went into unplanned retirement my pay scale was $95 an hour in the mid-nineties. My pay dropped to about ninety-five cents an hour if I was lucky! One way or another I mostly find myself paying for the privilege of working like a dog.

The main issue is that I have to be free to work my own zany hours, I can't conform to other people's. If I want to turn at three in the morning it is a nonissue. If I want to knock off with something half done it is my business too. I have to have that level of freedom, not an option. I pay for that freedom with a large element of risk, financial and otherwise.


Patrick,

I haven't been fortunate enough to find a local mentor, I have adopted the members of this and a few other forums instead! Also owe a good bit to some of the people that post a lot of video. My feeling is that there will be a market for decent simple work if I can find that market. I have seen the silliness of different markets putting up to a hundred times different value on the same things! I also shake my head in awe at a sculptor who sells stick men for as much as a hundred thousand dollars apiece. Look a lot like what we drew in preschool or kindergarten if we were young enough to have such things. I was a bit behind, drew my stick men in the first grade. Don't remember even getting a nickel for them though!

Anyway, I have seen over and over that the buyer's sense of value is what matters. Many people with money to burn often see more expensive as better. People pay a hundred dollars for blue jeans and a hundred and a half for t-shirts. I'm pretty sure my twenty dollar jeans and three dollar t-shirts last just as long.

I'm just wondering if the marketplace is going to turn to 99% heavily post processed turnings or if my turnings are going to be marketable at a modest price when the time comes. I have one bowl for sale right now asking $8800. I don't expect it to sell anytime soon. Hope to sell a similar bowl for about sixty dollars. Those I would hope to have a pretty wide market for.

hu
 
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
3,540
Likes
15
In your location, you should be getting 75-100 for a salad or popcorn bowl that takes a bit less than two hours from log to buff. If you start turning bark up, you can tap a bit of the art market or wannabes. Nice thing is those are not re-turned, so they're done in an hour and sell like three. If you want to turn, reduce the post-processing. If you want to paint, burn or blast, have at it, but realize that you are now in the market where one will pay highly, but a hundred will go harrumph and walk by.

Galleries are OK, but the prices you see don't usually amount to much more to the turner until you're in the 1%. I mostly "wholesaled" to those who wanted work on consignment, because I didn't care to play the game. They could get things at the end of a show, but not the beginning, for a modest discount.

If you want to make money, become an authority, not an artist. Sell those DVDS and books to the base of the pyramid.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
would be great!

In your location, you should be getting 75-100 for a salad or popcorn bowl that takes a bit less than two hours from log to buff. If you start turning bark up, you can tap a bit of the art market or wannabes. Nice thing is those are not re-turned, so they're done in an hour and sell like three. If you want to turn, reduce the post-processing. If you want to paint, burn or blast, have at it, but realize that you are now in the market where one will pay highly, but a hundred will go harrumph and walk by.

Galleries are OK, but the prices you see don't usually amount to much more to the turner until you're in the 1%. I mostly "wholesaled" to those who wanted work on consignment, because I didn't care to play the game. They could get things at the end of a show, but not the beginning, for a modest discount.

If you want to make money, become an authority, not an artist. Sell those DVDS and books to the base of the pyramid.



Michael,

These days my wants are small. I'd be happy as a pig in flop to net an average hundred dollars a day for the days that I work. I know there is a great deal of truth in everything you say, always more money to be made as a supplier or instructor. I have taught a time or two, trained to be more accurate. I don't think I am bad at it but not something I desire to do and I get into the fixed schedule issue. I think you hit on pretty much exactly what I need to do, a bunch of bread and butter pieces with the occasional piece to try to catch the arty folks' eye. Got to challenge myself a bit sometimes too. I don't want turning to become a job. Right now I have a strong enough desire to turn that I turn almost every day. I want to keep that level of desire. My real concern was if there is a market out there for bread and butter pieces and if most turners feel it will remain.

Painting, burning and such are skills in themselves and I have seen some very nice artistry right here. Those are the kind of things that do seem like a job to me. Not the artistry, all the prep and clean-up. I do want to turn, not spend more time preparing to create and cleaning up behind creating than I spend trying to create something. Also, unless I reduce it to technique instead of talent I'm a lousy artist anyway! :D


Thanks for your post. Your messages are always greatly appreciated!

Hu
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
935
Likes
241
Location
Newberg, OR: 20mi SW of Portland: AAW #21058
I'm just wondering if the marketplace is going to turn to 99% heavily post processed turnings or if my turnings are going to be marketable at a modest price when the time comes. I have one bowl for sale right now asking $8800. I don't expect it to sell anytime soon. Hope to sell a similar bowl for about sixty dollars. Those I would hope to have a pretty wide market for.
hu

Hu,
I don't think your market is debating the post-processed turnings versus simple, good design turnings. That is a matter of personal taste and the fit into their lifestyle. Whatever you like to make will appeal to buyers of similar tastes. The trouble though, is that for non-artsy, good clean woodturned pieces, you are competing against glass, ceramic, and plastic bowls that sell for a fraction of your price for a comparably sized piece. Additionally, these other materials can be soaked, dishwashered, 'fridgerated, and microwaved; your wood item needs "special" care that most people are leary of jumping into.

By the way, given that they are similar, what is the reasoning behind the $8740 range between your two bowls?
 

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,075
Likes
9,481
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
I'd like it if my wood art hobby/compulsion/obsession/jones/habit would, at least to some degree, pay it's own way- more important as I contemplate retirement but I still want the freedom to be able to mostly make based on my imagination versus my wallet.

Boy, now Hu......You've raised some very interesting points. Patrick has hit on one aspect of turning wood that most all of us have contemplated......the desire for us to make money with our turnings.

I have respect for those who make the pursuit of money a determining factor in where their turning takes them, but I'm not one of them. Art, in its true form isn't about money.......it's about those things that drive the desire to produce the most appealing result his ability and resources allow. It's about satisfying this desire within the heart of the artist.

My belief is: If one is true to his heart, there will be those who will instinctively see this in his/her art......and, will want to own a representative piece of the artist, as well as something that is a bit more than just a "thing" to decorate his, or her home.

My thinking is definitely romantic, and isn't rooted in a capitalistic attitude.......but, there is a sense of honor in keeping art separate from pursuit of money, and more targeted towards it's true form.


=====


You've raised other very interesting and excellent points that I'd like to respond to......but, will have to be later....especially regarding "post processing", as opposed to simple excellence in turning.....

....thanks for bringing these things up. :D

ooc
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
a few pieces of paper

Hu,
I don't think your market is debating the post-processed turnings versus simple, good design turnings. That is a matter of personal taste and the fit into their lifestyle. Whatever you like to make will appeal to buyers of similar tastes. The trouble though, is that for non-artsy, good clean woodturned pieces, you are competing against glass, ceramic, and plastic bowls that sell for a fraction of your price for a comparably sized piece. Additionally, these other materials can be soaked, dishwashered, 'fridgerated, and microwaved; your wood item needs "special" care that most people are leary of jumping into.

By the way, given that they are similar, what is the reasoning behind the $8740 range between your two bowls?



Owen,

The eighty-seven and change buys a few pieces of paper with it. I see some specialty turnings bringing many tens of thousands that originally sold for $200 or less. The makers new pieces still sell in the low thousands. Odds are that anyone starting out will never have that collectability, definitely including me! However, if I ever achieve that collectability my first signed piece is going to be sitting on my shelf or I am going to be able to say I bought a very nice lathe with the proceeds from it.

Definitely going on the just need one buyer for it theory and I do have access to a few high end buyers around New Orleans. If one decides they want my first signed turning of any kind they are going to have to pay for it. I really don't think it is impossible for this piece to sell in the next few years. Highly questionable that it is that valuable but sometimes value is in the eye of the beholder. I have met a few people that even many years ago threw tens of thousands around like toilet paper, a couple even hundreds of thousands. Just one of them come along and they or a significant other of the moment want the piece . . . If it never happens just sitting there on display with that price tag on it will up the value of my other pieces in some people's minds.

I seem to be shooting at a pretty narrow market niche for most of my work. Obviously I can't and don't want to compete with the mass produced bowls. I also don't want the vast majority of my pieces to compete with the very high end stuff. Probably the majority of the pieces selling from just under fifty to under two-hundred dollars at a guess based on size, beauty of the wood, and form. A few larger or more complex pieces to be on display with them because there are always some conspicuous consumers who have to buy the most expensive offered. Finding and keeping my market is the catch. I'm hoping to discover if the market even exists with this thread. I may be coming to wood turning a decade or two too late.

Hu
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
looking forward to hearing more from you

Boy, now Hu......You've raised some very interesting points. Patrick has hit on one aspect of turning wood that most all of us have contemplated......the desire for us to make money with our turnings.

I have respect for those who make the pursuit of money a determining factor in where their turning takes them, but I'm not one of them. Art, in its true form isn't about money.......it's about those things that drive the desire to produce the most appealing result his ability and resources allow. It's about satisfying this desire within the heart of the artist.

My belief is: If one is true to his heart, there will be those who will instinctively see this in his/her art......and, will want to own a representative piece of the artist, as well as something that is a bit more than just a "thing" to decorate his, or her home.

My thinking is definitely romantic, and isn't rooted in a capitalistic attitude.......but, there is a sense of honor in keeping art separate from pursuit of money, and more targeted towards it's true form.


=====


You've raised other very interesting and excellent points that I'd like to respond to......but, will have to be later....especially regarding "post processing", as opposed to simple excellence in turning.....

....thanks for bringing these things up. :D

ooc

Looking forward to your further thoughts. There is the thought "build it and they will come" however that isn't true for the majority of people. They have to conform somewhat to the existing market to be commercially viable. One catch is that I don't have decades to build a market, a few years at most to build at least a small demand for my stuff. The best way to raise the value of most artist's output is for them to die. Great for the people possessing their work, not any real benefit to the artist. For some reason that isn't the route I want to take . . .

I won't make things I dislike just to sell them. At the same time I won't have as my main output some radical off the wall things I like that only one in a thousand or ten-thousand might like well enough to buy. I like kinetic pieces. Could turnings be incorporated into those in a manner that everything is in harmony? I'd like to play with the idea some time. I have another idea for something I haven't seen. I'm not talking about it at the moment because many people are already capable of creating what I want to and I can't, yet.

Almost all people whose output has to have commercial value are forced to walk a line between what others want and what they are willing to create. I wanted a custom rifle that a friend was maybe the best in the world creating. At the time I could afford it. My friend had told me that he had already created over a hundred similar rifles and he was sick of building them. Although he turned out dozens if not hundreds more great rifles of the same pattern I never requested the one I wanted a great deal. I couldn't ask a friend to create something he didn't want to make.

Those that want to be commercially viable usually have to find a line defining what they want to create and the market wants to buy. The line will be different for each person. I don't know where my line is yet but I know that I have no interest in creating things that you can't look at across the room and know it is wood. That doesn't make others wrong that create such things just not my cup of tea. Lyle Jamieson does fantastic carvings based on hollow turnings. I much admire them but ultimately not where I see myself going either. Hopefully I can make the wood itself and the form sing to people.

Hu
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
2,557
Likes
25
Location
Annandale, New Jersey
Hu,

If you want a gauge on commercial viability, you need to speak to the "market makers" rather than turners. Go to galleries and speak to the owners. Go to SOFA shows. Look for groups like the Collectors of Wood Art affiliated with the AAW and see what they are "doing." You'll find that there are groups-within-groups, each with a special focus, so your target market may be smaller than you initially would think.

Consider that the price a piece will bring depends entirely upon who's buying it. June Cleaver can get a nice big salad bowl for $16.95, or a whole set for $45 in the kitchenware section at Wegman's or Whole Foods. Cruise the craft shows to see what the hoi polloi are buying and for how much.

Collectors and "art" galleries, pay for work on a completely different basis with the price determined by the perceived up-side of the "investment." The price now is largely guided by their perception of what the piece will be worth 5, 10, 20 years from now. You will get their attention when your creativity produces something that makes you stand out from the crowd, smallish crowd though it may be. The value of the piece is driven by the value of the maker's "name." A funky Ellsworth piece (if there is such a thing) will far out-price a prime "Mandell" every time.

You don't get to be flavor of the month by just putting sprinkles on plain vanilla. Your market for an $8,000 bowl is the person who has the money to back up their assessment that it's actually worth $10,000 and will be worth $20,000 next year. That person is unlikely to be another turner unless they happen to have hit the Power Ball numbers. Turners are makers rather than collector/investors.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Messages
244
Likes
1
Location
Madison, Indiana
Hu,
You are asking a question that only you can answer.
It is not "Where is turning going?" but where are you going with turning.
I am a retired art teacher of 34 years,have been painting,sculpting,printing, building furniture and teaching for one reason-to satisfy my need -creativity.
I turn for myself, I draw for myself, the need to fullfill something in me to invent, to build , or to design is a desire I have to do.
I am at a point in my life that money is not the driving force, myphysical and financial needs are taken care of but my need to create will always be there.
There is however a need for validation, being an artist, that also gives me satisfaction or reinforcement. Whether the bowls stack up in my attic or I sell them at galleries or shows, when a person buys that piece and tells me how much he loves it, tells me how it makes him feel--that is also very important personally to me and gives me more incentive to create again and again.
We all need positive feedback, one way or another, whether it be with good comments or a check. Again ,validation ,it's why we do what we do.
So, I guess I am trying to say, That"s where my turning is going and that is all I need.
Just my two cents. Gary
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
935
Likes
241
Location
Newberg, OR: 20mi SW of Portland: AAW #21058
Collectors and "art" galleries, pay for work on a completely different basis with the price determined by the perceived up-side of the "investment." The price now is largely guided by their perception of what the piece will be worth 5, 10, 20 years from now. You will get their attention when your creativity produces something that makes you stand out from the crowd, smallish crowd though it may be. The value of the piece is driven by the value of the maker's "name." A funky Ellsworth piece (if there is such a thing) will far out-price a prime "Mandell" every time.

You don't get to be flavor of the month by just putting sprinkles on plain vanilla. Your market for an $8,000 bowl is the person who has the money to back up their assessment that it's actually worth $10,000 and will be worth $20,000 next year.

What a great response Mark.

{I didn't know Howie was a turner! ;) (I know, one L.)}
 
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
3,540
Likes
15
Consider that the price a piece will bring depends entirely upon who's buying it. June Cleaver can get a nice big salad bowl for $16.95, or a whole set for $45 in the kitchenware section at Wegman's or Whole Foods. Cruise the craft shows to see what the hoi polloi are buying and for how much.

If the hoi polloi aren't buying the stainless at Wally World (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoi polloi), they will be going to craft shows bargain hunting. Don't go there. You want the show that bills itself as an art show and demands that applicants pass some sort of a jurying process. As imperfect as it may seem to have the paint daubers decide what's good in wood, it does guarantee you a different attitude among potential buyers. They are primed to pay a higher scale for something that doesn't just serve salad, but does it in style.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
I do have my path charted, always subject to minor change

Basically I know where I am willing to go with turning. I also know I have to reach a certain target group, those with enough disposable income to be comfortable buying fairly high dollar knick-knacks. The e-bay and yard sale crowd isn't going to work. I do have some small ins with the art crowd around New Orleans. At this point it is possibly just a matter of building a group of quality pieces with enough variety to basically put on a two or three day showing of my stuff. I'm still a ways from that. However the art crowd tends to have a group mentality. They buy what their friends want to buy too. If the simple pieces are seen as comparable to what they can go buy off of the big box shelf I'm sunk.

My real concern is that looking at the galleries here and on some other nice wood turning sites the focus seems to be getting away from basic turnings and simple finishes into the turning just being a canvas for other work. If the market becomes almost entirely focused on this post processed stuff I am likely to have wasted a lot of time and money on something without even any hope of return. I truly love outdoor and wildlife photography and was pretty fair at it. I took a hard look at the market and had to decide that there wasn't a realistic expectation of return on investment. I'm trying to determine if there is a realistic expectation of at least a positive return assuming I turn out quality pieces of the type I wish to turn. If not, there are other activities that I enjoy more, mainly because they don't involve pushing a broom every evening!

Hu
 
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
2,557
Likes
25
Location
Annandale, New Jersey
A reality check, here Hu.

If you're "getting into" woodturning for the potential profit, I'll step up and discourage you now. Even the biggest names in the field do not depend on their work product to make a living; they teach, sell tools (and lathes), make how-to videos for sale, travel for demos, do product endorsements, and most have "day" jobs. Last time I saw figures on this, something less 1% of all the artists in this country make a living from their art, and then only after half a lifetime of effort.

From your comments, it appears you plan to be a devoted member of the Round & Brown League. David Ellsworth leads that parade so you'll be in good company. With that choice, however, you're taking yourself out of the "what's new in the world of woodturning". What's new always involves more than what was done before. Collectors, those people that lay out the real money, look for uniqueness on top of precise craftsmanship.

All that said, those who try to use art as a business venture most often find their big idea becomes last week's flash in the pan, and their market demographic, the trendy artsy crowd, move on to the next "happening dude". The people who make money in art are not the artists, never have been. The people who make hard currency profits on an investment in art are the collectors and dealers.

But

Feel free to try to prove me wrong. It'll take you years and years of dedication and persistence with boatloads of rejection along the way.

Of course you might also find something else along that path; the enjoyment and personal fulfillment of making things, and on that you can't put a price.

Cheers
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
183
Likes
0
Woodturning... craft.

Wood "art" ...lathe not necessary.

I recently posted a kuksa (drinking cup) that I started on the lathe to a traditional crafts board. The lathe was instrumental at arriving at a rough shape quickly, but I recut the entire thing with traditional carving tools to my finished surfaces. Is it a turning? I wouldn't call it one.

You can make more money making useful things than you can making art. Sure, the big names get big prices, but most don't sell that many pieces. They make their money teachingand demonstrating, where they sell their tools and videos.

Steve
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,591
Likes
4,886
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
I'll add a bit to what Mark and steve said.
It is easy to make a little money woodturning
Making a living is really hard. There are two ways to get ahead.

1. Simply turn better and faster than just about anybody else. Make lots of product and develop wholesale clients.
Get into the architectural and furniture restoration market develop clients

2 turn work that no one else has done and create a niche in the art market.

There is rule of thumb that it take about 10,000 hours of working in any craft to become "successful"
This is sort of like a five year apprenticeship.

Occasionally people with a good art background move up quickly because they are especially innovative.

Have fun
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,886
Likes
5,169
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
I'll make a WAG that for those wood artists who have "arrived" to a place of recognition by their peers and collectors also had a dream of where they wanted to go and didn't allow bumps in the road to discourage them. But I'll also guess that they had far more than unbridled enthusiasm going for them.

I suspect that part of their background involves either formal or self taught art training. A creative mind is essential. At this early stage in your long journey you are saying that things that are not "pure"as in no carving or burning involved is not where you wish to go.

There is no sharp dividing line to distinguish embellished from pure woodturning -- just a little extra sanding could be considered too much embellishing -- or it may not. A little leather, beads, and turquoise may seem to be OK to many woodturners, but not necessarily all. David Nittmann does basket illusion turnings that are burned and colored. I think that most woodturners are in awe of his talent and would not reject it because of the decorations.

I have seen some incredible high gloss automotive type paint jobs on woodturnings. I wish that I could find someone to put a paint job like that on my Dodge RAM. It is not something that I am interested in doing, but I still appreciate creative designs. There was a lady in our club who is a true multimedia artist and she turned wood as a foundation for painted and sculpted art. The rule book doesn't say anything about carving and painting turned objects. A turning does not have to be round -- with no carving or sawing, it is possible to turn a perfect cube on the lathe just as easily as one can turn a sphere. What I am getting at is that you have barely begun so don't restrict where you can go.

Concerning your question about the direction of woodturning, the answer is wherever you wish to take it as well as where every other turner wishes to go in their own journey. If it is to survive, expanding seems to me a good indicator of a robust future.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
Forty-five years too late

A reality check, here Hu.

If you're "getting into" woodturning for the potential profit, I'll step up and discourage you now. Even the biggest names in the field do not depend on their work product to make a living; they teach, sell tools (and lathes), make how-to videos for sale, travel for demos, do product endorsements, and most have "day" jobs. Last time I saw figures on this, something less 1% of all the artists in this country make a living from their art, and then only after half a lifetime of effort.

From your comments, it appears you plan to be a devoted member of the Round & Brown League. David Ellsworth leads that parade so you'll be in good company. With that choice, however, you're taking yourself out of the "what's new in the world of woodturning". What's new always involves more than what was done before. Collectors, those people that lay out the real money, look for uniqueness on top of precise craftsmanship.

All that said, those who try to use art as a business venture most often find their big idea becomes last week's flash in the pan, and their market demographic, the trendy artsy crowd, move on to the next "happening dude". The people who make money in art are not the artists, never have been. The people who make hard currency profits on an investment in art are the collectors and dealers.

But

Feel free to try to prove me wrong. It'll take you years and years of dedication and persistence with boatloads of rejection along the way.

Of course you might also find something else along that path; the enjoyment and personal fulfillment of making things, and on that you can't put a price.

Cheers


Mark,

I'd be forty-five or fifty years behind if I just found the enjoyment and personal fulfillment of designing and making things now. I have been designing and making things since I was a child. I have competed with a large variety of equipment largely of my design and construction with unique features including cars, rifles, pistols, pool cues, and some of the supporting equipment for competing with such things. All had my personal stamp on them and all were successful.

A few minor details beyond my control, mostly hurricanes, have me starting over from ground zero without a home of my own, my shops, or most of my equipment. Nothing like a back against the wall to be inspirational though! I don't doubt that what you are saying is accurate but I don't feed anyone but myself and a stray cat and I'm not planning on putting either of us through college. Wood turning has to net more than it costs, and has to do that in the fairly near future. It doesn't have to be a cash cow. I do have a handful of interested collector type buyers that are willing to speculate a bit on anything I'm willing to sell. I have a pretty longstanding reputation for quality, anything I do. I have to build a long ways from those few people of course but I have built some extremely successful businesses largely by word of mouth. One difference between me and most starting a business on a dream, I know business having built my first in 1973 and having had a double handful of businesses since then. I can be a bit fiddle footed!

Just did a little research, hard to tell what it means but I'll talk about it in a reply to the thread rather than to any one person.

Thanks for your posts. I do plan to put some of my pieces to the test with a gallery owner in the fairly near future. Should be interesting anyway.

Hu
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
did a little homework

Hard to say how significant this is, I just sampled the turnings that people posted pictures of over a fairly long period of time. Obviously this doesn't indicate how many of these turnings sell, if they were even offered for sale, or the sale price. A very small sampling too, only low hundreds of objects total.

Anyway, from the sample around 2003 roughly two-thirds of the objects posted were the kind of things I would be interested in making.

Next I sampled around 2010. Not good, only about one-third of the images posted were of things I would be interested in making.

Sampling current pages though I find no significant change from 2010 levels.

So, "round and brown" fell fifty percent from 2003 to 2010 but has held steady from 2010 to 2013. This isn't sales figures though so hard to know what it means other than apparently the turning percentage of this type of object has stabilized among turners that post images of their work on the internet site I visited.

Guess it will come down to what I already suspected, I'll have to test local waters for myself.

Hu
 

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,075
Likes
9,481
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
Pure lathe turning VS embellishment....

Since the 1980's, I've seen a definite evolving of what's in vogue with lathe turning. Back then, more turners were mainly interested in turning with lathe skills as the focus of the effort......but now, things are changing towards embellishment, or "post processing", as Hu has termed it.

This is not good, nor bad.......but, I've been one who has remained focused on pure turning skills as a primary objective . This should be evident to those who are familiar with my works.

My appreciation for what others do has evolved with the times, but my own "evolvement", has been with increasing my skill level for using tools......both preparation and techniques.....this, with the goal of the best "tool finish" prior to sanding. Along with that, my sanding techniques and what I consider my "eye" for artistic shape have also evolved in degree of refinement.

I'm certainly not alone in my "turning philosophy", but I'm distinctly within a smaller group of turners who have remained focused on the basics. It seems to me that nearly all turners start off pursuing pure turning in their beginnings, but most of them evolve with the times, or current vogue, and eventually leave their roots in pursuit of the many alternative ways of completing a turning.

One other thing I've noticed, is very few turners are still doing basic bowl and platter shapes. This means the most difficult part of these shapes have been eliminated.......the interior. I'm not sure, but this one thing may have contributed to the reasons why so many no longer spend the effort to do bowl and platter shapes......other than those shapes with a very basic minimal and abbreviated curve.

ooc
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
316
Likes
52
Location
Fort Collins, CO.
Hu,

I believe there will always be a market for wood crafted products. There are ,in my mind, two routes to go. One is the art side which is what you see more of on forums and such. Someone mentioned validation as a need and what you see on the forum sites is just that. There are thousands who don't show there work on forums who are artists and plain turners alike. There is a trend in wood turning, maybe other art mediums, of finding their inner voice or that signature piece. Some of these people do OK selling but most make for the sake of making and earn their income in other areas, day job, teaching, tools and etc. The second route is the production route. Find a way to make a few items quickly and made well. I will share with you a couple of true stories. A friend took about 25 bottle stoppers to one liquor store that sells a lot of wine. He showed the owner these stoppers and the owner said he would by them all and wanted 20 more every month. My friend was asking ten dollars each (this was about 10 years ago) and told the owner he was just interested in selling these 25. The owner purchased them but my friend could have had a regular client. The other is another friend who does a few shows a year (very selective of what shows). He makes bowls with inlays and simple bowls, mainly. However for each show he looks for a holiday coming up. One example is Christmas where he made 300 simple ornaments. He told me he could make one in four minutes. When he does this show he sells all of them in the first two days of a three day show for $10 each. This makes his show worth it and every other item he sells is icing on the cake.

My point is you can earn money doing this but you won't get rich. You may earn enough to pay for the hobby and enough extra to take a nice vacation every year or two. Unless of course you become a Mahoney or Glenn Lucas who production turn forty or more hours a week as a real job.

There are opportunities to earn some money at this but if you want to keep it as a hobby you must become realistic on what you expect to earn doing this. Set yourself a realistic goal and work to achieve it. Once achieved then re-evaluate where you are and decide do you want more, is this enough or maybe you will decide to cut back.

As for a market, everyone even the less privileged, like at least one nice thing in their home.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
trying to break things out, not sure how it will work

Pure lathe turning VS embellishment....

Since the 1980's, I've seen a definite evolving of what's in vogue with lathe turning. Back then, more turners were mainly interested in turning with lathe skills as the focus of the effort......but now, things are changing towards embellishment, or "post processing", as Hu has termed it.

Post processing might not be the best term but I did want to distinguish between embellishments turned into a piece and those added afterwards. Some embellishment during turning is a given, even the curves we put on our shapes are embellishments, not absolutely needed for function. Also, I don't mind doing a certain level of post processing myself. I just don't want post processing to have greater importance than the turning or take a large portion of the time spent on a piece.


This is not good, nor bad.......but, I've been one who has remained focused on pure turning skills as a primary objective . This should be evident to those who are familiar with my works.

My appreciation for what others do has evolved with the times, but my own "evolvement", has been with increasing my skill level for using tools......both preparation and techniques.....this, with the goal of the best "tool finish" prior to sanding. Along with that, my sanding techniques and what I consider my "eye" for artistic shape have also evolved in degree of refinement.

I'm certainly not alone in my "turning philosophy", but I'm distinctly within a smaller group of turners who have remained focused on the basics. It seems to me that nearly all turners start off pursuing pure turning when starting out, but most of them evolve with the times, or current vogue, and eventually leave their roots in pursuit of the many alternative ways of completing a turning.

One other thing I've noticed, is very few turners are still doing basic bowl and platter shapes. This means the most difficult part of these shapes have been eliminated.......the interior. I'm not sure, but this one thing may have contributed to the reasons why so many no longer spend the effort to do bowl and platter shapes......other than those shapes with a very basic minimal and abbreviated curve.

ooc

I may find myself post processing more than I care to, I truly hope not. I have had a great deal of exposure to chemicals over the years and a dislike of working with all of the various chemicals is a major thing that turned me away from cue building. Still may have to build a few butterfly cues and segmented hollow forms, I'm not 100% consistent and do get in the mood to try something different sometimes. However my goal is to turn out clean simple designs with just enough added to them in turning to differentiate them from what a person can buy off the shelf.


Hu,

I believe there will always be a market for wood crafted products. There are ,in my mind, two routes to go. One is the art side which is what you see more of on forums and such. Someone mentioned validation as a need and what you see on the forum sites is just that. There are thousands who don't show there work on forums who are artists and plain turners alike. There is a trend in wood turning, maybe other art mediums, of finding their inner voice or that signature piece. Some of these people do OK selling but most make for the sake of making and earn their income in other areas, day job, teaching, tools and etc. The second route is the production route. Find a way to make a few items quickly and made well. I will share with you a couple of true stories. A friend took about 25 bottle stoppers to one liquor store that sells a lot of wine. He showed the owner these stoppers and the owner said he would by them all and wanted 20 more every month. My friend was asking ten dollars each (this was about 10 years ago) and told the owner he was just interested in selling these 25. The owner purchased them but my friend could have had a regular client. The other is another friend who does a few shows a year (very selective of what shows). He makes bowls with inlays and simple bowls, mainly. However for each show he looks for a holiday coming up. One example is Christmas where he made 300 simple ornaments. He told me he could make one in four minutes. When he does this show he sells all of them in the first two days of a three day show for $10 each. This makes his show worth it and every other item he sells is icing on the cake.

My point is you can earn money doing this but you won't get rich. You may earn enough to pay for the hobby and enough extra to take a nice vacation every year or two. Unless of course you become a Mahoney or Glenn Lucas who production turn forty or more hours a week as a real job.

There are opportunities to earn some money at this but if you want to keep it as a hobby you must become realistic on what you expect to earn doing this. Set yourself a realistic goal and work to achieve it. Once achieved then re-evaluate where you are and decide do you want more, is this enough or maybe you will decide to cut back.

As for a market, everyone even the less privileged, like at least one nice thing in their home.


Dale,

Excellent points one and all in your post! Also a very helpful reminder that there is money to be made in short run semi-production items. Not something I want to take up a major portion of my time at the lathe but something I have experience with having ran a very busy one man sheet metal and insulation fab shop and having turned thousands of small components on a metal lathe in batches numbering from a few dozen to a few hundred at a time. I am experienced at setting up a work area and working efficiently to maximize production. Not exactly right to describe it as fun but there is a pleasure in seeing the work stacked up at the end of a session.

Tough to see the market by secondhand indicators and it was another good reminder when you pointed out that what I see on the internet doesn't necessarily translate directly into the world at large. Much of what is posted is aimed at other wood turners who appreciate the difficulty of turning a certain piece or the skill required for the added embellishments. The average person looks at a shape and never considers the difficulty of turning it, they are surrounded by injection molded shapes as complex or far more complex.



While I welcome further input It does seem that my questions that I have asked and those that weren't asked originally have been pretty thoroughly covered from multiple perspectives. As seems to always be the case on this forum all posters have added value to this thread for me and all posts are greatly appreciated! The members of this forum offer a wealth of knowledge and experience and this being so freely shared is a huge help to me.

Thank you all for your responses!

Hu
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
303
Likes
13
Problem is Hue, "plain and simple designs". Thousands of turners out there can produce these every day. So, supply and demand comes into play. You have to distinguish yourself from others to "tap" a true market. If you take the so called easy route then don't expect much for your turnings, not enough to sustain a living anyway.
 

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,075
Likes
9,481
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
Problem is Hue, "plain and simple designs". Thousands of turners out there can produce these every day. So, supply and demand comes into play. You have to distinguish yourself from others to "tap" a true market. If you take the so called easy route then don't expect much for your turnings, not enough to sustain a living anyway.

Hello Brian......

Of course, there is a lot of truth to what you're saying here, but not all "plain and simple shapes are created equally......nor, should they all be lumped together with equal emphasis.

During the early 1980's when I was first discovering woodturning, there were those considered as "masters", whom were dedicated to excellence in turning, but applied their art to what we would now consider "plain and simple" designs, or shapes. Those I speak of are among many who mastered tool preparation, use, choices, and their own learned techniques were used to best get a clean cut that conformed to an artful and pleasing shape. This, with a minimum of sanding. When a turning requires too much sanding, it ultimately works against that artful shape. Sanding always changes the shape because it will remove more wood according to soft/hard......as well as end grain vs long grain. Excessive sanding will always destroy the clean intersection of surfaces, and the clean look of details, and detail grooves. Added to that, the old masters had a sense of design that was better than others......they didn't get to where they did by luck, or accident! This sense of design is something that can be learned, or improved upon, but an instinctive ability to distinguish pleasing shape is something that's better when it's a natural attribute of the turner......it's a gift from our creator, DNA, or however you want to think of it.

Some of these masters, like Bob Stocksdale, Rude Osolnik, Dale Nish, among others, came up with turnings that had that special refined look to them. Many turners, as well as some of those who were buying art, and some art dealers/critics could tell there was something special about the turnings of certain turners. They may not have been able to tell just why this simple object had "it", while a great many other examples of turnings by other turners didn't have the same special aura of exceptionalism......but, "it" was there, and obvious to those who have a developed, or natural ability to recognize it!

ooc
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
303
Likes
13
Times change and woodturning evolves. More people pushing the envelope. I'm just saying don't expect to be an Ellsworth in today's era by doing plain and simple designs. Most buyers don't really care how you got to the final product. You can tell a good story and sometimes it might help the sale but in the end it's the product they are holding that completes the sale. 3d carvers will put a big damper on this because they will create the "perfect form" every time.m
Oldie, you turn for your own satisfaction and maybe a sale here or there. Hue is wanting to pay bills and do that while doing the "plain and simple". I'm just stating he needs to be realistic. And on top of that he doesn't't want to put the years in to perfect it. I think most just didn't want to say what the most likely outcome is.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
thanks Odie, rexactly what I dream of doing

Brian,

As Odie said so well, you can put a dozen different turner's plain jane round bowl in a pile and let people sort through them. Even with the wood all plain and featureless like a lot of basswood, one or two bowls would be selected by the vast majority of people, knowledgeable or not. We know what is pleasant to look at even if we don't know why.

There is a world of variation available without the post processing. Very likely much of what I am considering creating won't be considered just round and brown by most people. I just want to avoid overcomplicating designs or burying the turning under so much other work that people don't even notice the turning.

Many years ago I did two CAD drawings. 3D CAD was in it's infancy. I spent every spare moment for several weeks creating a virtual 3D model of a proto-type of a self contained backpack air conditioning system we were trying to design. Every component was precisely to size and colored to distinguish them and make it easy to see overlaps. Very possibly saved the company tens of thousands in wasted hand fabrication. This was a small skunkworks and I took the drawing in to the owner of the company. He looked at it, "Oh that is nice" with a total lack of interest, and sent me on my way.

A week or two later the owner asked if I could draw the exterior of the backpack. I did complete with the harness and such in about forty-five minutes. Then I took maybe another five minutes creating closed areas and inserting a herringbone pattern with a click of a button. The pattern was on a different bias on adjoining panels and gave a nice realistic effect. Brought it to the owner's office and he raved over it. He spent the next three or four hours admiring that beautimus drawing, 99% because of that damned herringbone pattern.

If I spend long hours designing a piece and many more turning it to perfection I don't want somebody going gaga because I painted it with red spray bomb!

Hu
 

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,075
Likes
9,481
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
Post processing might not be the best term but I did want to distinguish between embellishments turned into a piece and those added afterwards. Some embellishment during turning is a given, even the curves we put on our shapes are embellishments, not absolutely needed for function. Also, I don't mind doing a certain level of post processing myself. I just don't want post processing to have greater importance than the turning or take a large portion of the time spent on a piece.
Hu

Hu......

For purposes of clarity in this thread, I think I should add my own definition of what "embellishment" means to me. You and I have some differences in the meaning of the term.

To my thinking, anything done on the lathe, utilizing traditional lathe tools, is not embellishment. The general shape, curve in the shape, intersecting edges, turned details, detail grooves.....these things would not fall under the definition of "embellishment", and have been skills recognized for a hundred years.

It is things like, wood burning, piercing, paint, dye, external shaping off the lathe, carving, texturing, laminating, bleaching, adding media to the wood: metal, stone, etc.......all of these things, I'd call embellishments.

I would tend to consider hand carving less of an embellishment than power carving, when used to accentuate, rather than become the focus......here, "tradition" has a role in classification.....

I'd be interested in hearing opinions from others on how the term "embellishment" applies to woodturning.......

ooc


I suppose I should add that embellishment, or all of the above things are fine with me. Embellishment isn't against the rules, or anything like that...... and however anyone else pursues their own ways of achieving their goals is part of what separates, or differentiates between individuals.



.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
Hu......

For purposes of clarity in this thread, I think I should add my own definition of what "embellishment" means to me. You and I have some differences in the meaning of the term.

To my thinking, anything done on the lathe, utilizing traditional lathe tools, is not embellishment. The general shape, curve in the shape, intersecting edges, turned details, detail grooves.....these things would not fall under the definition of "embellishment", and have been skills recognized for a hundred years.

It is things like, wood burning, piercing, paint, dye, external shaping off the lathe, carving, texturing, laminating, bleaching, adding media to the wood: metal, stone, etc.......all of these things, I'd call embellishments.

I would tend to consider hand carving less of an embellishment than power carving, when used to accentuate, rather than become the focus......here, "tradition" has a role in classification.....

I'd be interested in hearing opinions from others on how the term "embellishment" applies to woodturning.......

ooc


I suppose I should add that embellishment, or all of the above things are fine with me. Embellishment isn't against the rules, or anything like that...... and however anyone else pursues their own ways of achieving their goals is part of what separates, or differentiates between individuals.



.

As I thought, your meaning of embellishments and mine of post processing are very close. At some point even the traditional methods of adding to a design can become too much or not enough in my view. A simple bead or two might look great on an object. Add a little more and it looks overdone. Add a lot more and it becomes something else and it looks just fine. I hope the vast majority of what I turn never reaches that first "overdone" stage. No doubt I will turn out the occasional elaborate piece just as a change-up and some of the pieces I turn will be quite elaborate but not to the eye that doesn't understand wood turning.

I am more comfortable with burning or a little bit of inlace filling naturally weak or damaged areas than with things like paint and coatings. The simple burnings while a lathe is spinning using a piece of wire or similar means is very old I believe and only takes minutes to do and clean up around. Then the line gets blurred the more we burn but we haven't really covered up the wood, just changed it. When it comes down to it, I guess the post processing I don't want to do involves covering up the wood or such elaborate carving that it is no longer instantly recognizable as a turning. Also I don't want to do post processing that takes up a great deal of my time. Some people turn to carve. Nothing in the world wrong with that, just not what I want to do. I don't want to turn in order to be able to post process.

Like you, I have absolutely no issue with other people embellishing their pieces to any extent they choose, a little or a lot. Nothing wrong with using a turning just as the base or armature to support whatever they choose to create. I find much of this stuff quite beautiful. A friend can put fantastic painting on my turnings. A niece can carve them into beautiful objects. Both of these things are likely to happen to some of my turnings. They will no longer be my turnings then though.


Brian,

A quick comment regarding your last post, I don't think I can avoid paying the dues everyone else has to pay to learn to turn. The thing is many have already been paid. Anchoring the tool and moving the body? Been doing that since the early eighties. Scraping and shear scraping? Been doing that over forty years. I have smoothed and faired many a piece of wood on a lathe already too, cue shafts. They have to be absolutely perfect for twenty-eight inches or more when finished. The original turning is a machine operation but quite easy to ruin one sanding or even just burnishing. Many of the other things involved in wood turning are very similar to things I have already done. Translating these skills to traditional wood turning takes a little learning and experience but it isn't nearly as time consuming as learning them from scratch. I do expect to have a much shorter learning curve than someone who has never done these things. I think of it as transferring credits for courses I have already taken.

Hu
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,886
Likes
5,169
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Tongue planted firmly in cheek .....

Hu......

For purposes of clarity in this thread, I think I should add my own definition of what "embellishment" means to me.

. . . . . .

I suppose I should add that embellishment, or all of the above things are fine with me. Embellishment isn't against the rules, or anything like that...... and however anyone else pursues their own ways of achieving their goals is part of what separates, or differentiates between individuals.

I'm glad that you distinguished between "definitions" and "rules". Even so, I am not sure that how useful it is to define the term "embellishment" without making it part of a personal rule such as, "I won't do any power carving, but maybe just a little hand carving". And, I suppose that one could get carried away (figuratively) with wondering if a chatter tool is a traditional lathe tool. If so, can we then allow a sprocket or spur or pinion gear "on a stick" inside that same tent. Or should we even worry about the path we took to get to the end product if identical final results are achieved.

I think that categorizing things can snowball into never ending legalisms as we try to figure out how an accent differs from a focus. And then we might wind up wondering if we are losing focus on the big picture by focusing on the little picture.

So what kind of stuff do I turn? Whatever tickles my fancy at the moment. Lately that has meant that both the remaining wood surface and the removed wood is part of a truncated basic geometric shape that results from rotation about an axis of symmetry for two dimensional curves such as parabolas, hyperbolas, ellipses, and circles (spheroid sections). I use a CAD program to create templates so that I can gauge the shape of the turning and fine tune it. I also use dye and metal in my turnings, so I think that if you look up "embellish" in Webster's Dictionary, you might see a picture of what I make. :D
 

odie

TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,075
Likes
9,481
Location
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
I'm glad that you distinguished between "definitions" and "rules". Even so, I am not sure that how useful it is to define the term "embellishment" without making it part of a personal rule such as, "I won't do any power carving, but maybe just a little hand carving". And, I suppose that one could get carried away (figuratively) with wondering if a chatter tool is a traditional lathe tool. If so, can we then allow a sprocket or spur or pinion gear "on a stick" inside that same tent. Or should we even worry about the path we took to get to the end product if identical final results are achieved.

I think that categorizing things can snowball into never ending legalisms as we try to figure out how an accent differs from a focus. And then we might wind up wondering if we are losing focus on the big picture by focusing on the little picture.

So what kind of stuff do I turn? Whatever tickles my fancy at the moment. Lately that has meant that both the remaining wood surface and the removed wood is part of a truncated basic geometric shape that results from rotation about an axis of symmetry for two dimensional curves such as parabolas, hyperbolas, ellipses, and circles (spheroid sections). I use a CAD program to create templates so that I can gauge the shape of the turning and fine tune it. I also use dye and metal in my turnings, so I think that if you look up "embellish" in Webster's Dictionary, you might see a picture of what I make. :D


I've got my own ideas of what embellishment means, Bill.......Whatever you want to make it mean, is up to you. :D

I guess what I'm trying to say, here, is I don't think there is any official woodturner's definition of just what embellishment is, but it's a term that is used occasionally with woodturning specifically in the application. If anyone wants to add their own definitions, it might add to the exchange of ideas, and have value for us all to understand what the word means to other woodturners.

I would be inclined to think a chatter tool would be embellishment, but wood threads might not.......but, then again, I'm giving an opinion, and my statements are subject to however anyone else wants to define any particular specifics of the definition.

Your thought that trying to nail down a definition is likely to "snowball", is correct. There is no question that the term won't be universal in it's usage, and there is bound to be disagreement on the specifics. With that in mind, it's not my intent to come up with some kind of "rule" that everyone can, or should agree with.......

Nevertheless, it is possible to bring the parameters in a little closer to some sort of idea as to just how embellishment applies to woodturning......a more confined definition that is more understood among woodturners when the term is used.

ooc
 
Last edited:

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,591
Likes
4,886
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
I would be inclined to think a chatter tool would be embellishment, but wood threads might not.......but, then again, I'm giving an opinion, and my statements are subject to however anyone else wants to define any particular specifics of the definition.

ooc

Odie,
I will roll the snowball a bit.

Is chatterwork made with a spindle gouge or skew embellishment?

Seems to me any surface decoration done on the lathe with a handheld non-motorized tool is pretty equal.
Beads on bowls, chatter on a box top, or coves on a napkin ring are pretty much on the same level a decorative detail that does not contribute function.

Now how should we consider a natural edge bowl with its bark removed off the lathe with the aid of a chisel or carving knife.

It is always difficult to pigeon hole wood turnings but sometimes fun to try.

Also as to turning laminated pierces. A heck of a lot of turned columns, newel posts, lamp posts, table legs... Are done with glued up blanks.
Seems like pure turning to me......


Al
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
361
Likes
2
Location
Hawi, Hawaii
Website
www.kellydunnwoodturner.com
Hu, I have read this with interest. Mark Mandel and others have given you very sound advice. Now this boy is. I am the 1%. I have been making my living turning since 89. I have seen it change a lot. There is one heck of a lot more folks putting turnings for sale so it eats into the available bucks spent on wood that used to be my sales.
You sound like you need to make money at this and soon. Make things you like and see what happens. Repeat kind of the ones that sell. And alter or drop the ones that sit for years and bark. You wont know except with time. Here is the key. You bend with the breeze and eat some damned crow and make bread and butter items or starve.
Makers who only make what they want and expect to make a living without bending to what buyers are willing to buy go get day jobs.
As a name turner I am one lucky dog I have signiture work and there is still a small demand for them. The major collectors already have my work and want no more. New collectors of wood are rare. They are there, but not like in the late 80s till the late 90s.
I also am lucky I love what I do for a living. But if you expect to put food on the table in any regular manner you will make things that sell. You will know that when they keep selling. And then make work for the soul. Know it may never sell. But you will feel good inside for the making itself.
If you are lucky you will make items that actually propell you into turnings spotlight. My heyday was 94 to 01. It was sold before I made it. Now I do what it takes as a turner to make sales. Years ago Betty Scarpino gave me the best advise a production turner who was bored can receive. She told to always keep an experimental piece in the works.
If you have some manner of income to keep you floating then ignore all i have said and make what pleases you.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
sounds good

Hu, I have read this with interest. Mark Mandel and others have given you very sound advice. Now this boy is. I am the 1%. I have been making my living turning since 89. I have seen it change a lot. There is one heck of a lot more folks putting turnings for sale so it eats into the available bucks spent on wood that used to be my sales.
You sound like you need to make money at this and soon. Make things you like and see what happens. Repeat kind of the ones that sell. And alter or drop the ones that sit for years and bark. You wont know except with time. Here is the key. You bend with the breeze and eat some damned crow and make bread and butter items or starve.
Makers who only make what they want and expect to make a living without bending to what buyers are willing to buy go get day jobs.
As a name turner I am one lucky dog I have signiture work and there is still a small demand for them. The major collectors already have my work and want no more. New collectors of wood are rare. They are there, but not like in the late 80s till the late 90s.
I also am lucky I love what I do for a living. But if you expect to put food on the table in any regular manner you will make things that sell. You will know that when they keep selling. And then make work for the soul. Know it may never sell. But you will feel good inside for the making itself.
If you are lucky you will make items that actually propell you into turnings spotlight. My heyday was 94 to 01. It was sold before I made it. Now I do what it takes as a turner to make sales. Years ago Betty Scarpino gave me the best advise a production turner who was bored can receive. She told to always keep an experimental piece in the works.
If you have some manner of income to keep you floating then ignore all i have said and make what pleases you.


Kelly,

I'm afraid the wolf is at the door after a few natural disasters did me in. Every danged named storm that hit Louisiana seems to have done me damage one way or another since Katrina. I do have a small monthly fixed income from SSD which explains why my turning is a bit sporadic.

I think you have called it right, some short run semi-production stuff to have a little income, some nicer stuff but still in the casual buyer market, a little bit to satisfy the soul and appeal to somebody that is willing to pay for it. I have waited a bit late to try to build a name but you never know, stranger things have happened. If my work never gets particularly collectable I'll be pretty content turning out the mix of stuff I'm talking about. I enjoy making things so even if I don't get to spend all my time making what I want to make I won't hate getting up and going to work in the morning like so many people do. If I ever get a waiting list like you mention with people waiting for what I feel like turning, well that would be near nirvana.

One thing for sure, nobody ever succeeds without getting off the porch and trying something.

Thanks for your post. I do think every post in this thread has added value and was accurate from each person's perspective. Need I say I favor those like yours that encourage giving it a shot? I have been in tighter spots than this and came back stronger than ever. I think I can do it at least one more time!

Hu
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
485
Likes
3
Location
Roseland, LA
Kinda round, kinda brown, a little green

Hadn't turned in a few days, got the itch late yesterday evening. This is a piece of a sycamore limb, was horizontal and heavily loaded so as expected it moved around a lot with almost every cut. No hand sanding yet, rough sanded and a little sanding sealer on it.

10.5"x4.5". Nothing but minimum post processing, no embellishments in turning. Things like this still easily fit my idea of plain and simple. That is why I feel like I have a lot of room to play in, even avoiding much post processing the vast majority of the time.

Hu
 

Attachments

  • roundbrownalilgreenposthq.jpg
    roundbrownalilgreenposthq.jpg
    360.6 KB · Views: 86
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
361
Likes
2
Location
Hawi, Hawaii
Website
www.kellydunnwoodturner.com
Hu, natural edge turnings are hit or miss with buyers. You did a nice job on the upper portion. Nice flow. I dont care for that bottom one tiny bit. Its hard to clean up for one. A tenon you turn or carve away will give a more pleasing feel when the work gets handled. Plus lets you regulate the wall thickness a bit more easy. And gives you options for a foot of some manner or not. You just have to come up with a method to reverse turn the base. Plenty to choose from. Or carve it.
That said, my wife puts a higher price on my nat edge work cause it takes longer to do.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,886
Likes
5,169
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Hu, natural edge turnings are hit or miss with buyers. You did a nice job on the upper portion. Nice flow. I dont care for that bottom one tiny bit. Its hard to clean up for one. A tenon you turn or carve away will give a more pleasing feel when the work gets handled. Plus lets you regulate the wall thickness a bit more easy. And gives you options for a foot of some manner or not. You just have to come up with a method to reverse turn the base......

Kelly, you took the words right out of my mouth. I thought that the overall shape of the upper part was very well executed. I can't tell from the photo if the two wings have the same height, but that is important, too. The underside seemed OK at the outer parts, but I don't see an obvious recovery from that ugly foot unless the wall thickness isn't as uniform as it appears to be in the image. I assume that you started off between centers. One method of finishing the bottom would be to do it between centers with a jam chuck on the drive side. Without the dimple s a reference it is going to be more problematic, but if you had a vacuum chucking system, you could get fairly close by putting the turning back into the scroll chuck and then putting the chuck on the tailstock side. Once it is secured by the vacuum chuck, the scroll chuck could be removed and a live center point substituted to help hold things securely. The vacuum chuck solution is not quite as accurate as finishing between centers with a jam chuck, but nobody will notice the difference.
 
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
3,540
Likes
15
Good start. I don't think there's any reason why you should try to get both sides equal in height. Do what looks good to you. I like to play with deliberate asymmetry in what I call "unnatural edge" work, personally.

You can finish the bottom prior to scooping the top on these pieces. Means a quick piece of work rather than turning the whole thing twice. In this market, they seem to find great acceptance. I actually charge more for something taking less time, which is almost governmental in its dishonesty!

Irregular shapes. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Waitsand-1.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Interrupted-2.jpg

More regular. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/While-The-Glue-Dries.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Bark-up.jpg

A turning within. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Curly-Combo.jpg

Have some fun. As you've noticed, there are no long, anxious waits involved in warp-and-go stuff, hoping you didn't get it too broad or dry it too fast and crack it. When you attend a few shows and put few turnings on the market, you'll be able to judge the response in your area, among buyers, not turners.
 
Last edited:

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,591
Likes
4,886
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Hu,
I think Kelly and Bill had some good advice.

Your bowl looks good in the top view. Not good from the bottom and the side view is going to have two curves entering the table 3" apart and not look good to me.
Fortunately most folks will display this piece on a low surface so they only look at the top which looks nice.

I suggest you start using a tenon grip on these small bowls. The recess wastes a lot of wood on a small turning.
Using a tenon grip lets you run the outside curve of the bowl into the bottom of the Tenon if you want to.
I remove the point from my tail center for natural edge bowls. It make it easier to move the center a tiny bit to adjust the rim heights and I don't have to worry about a point hole showing up in the outside bottom if I use the wood in the tenon as part of my bowl. The cup impression is all I need to recenter to turn off the tenon after hollowing.

I like to see the outside of the bowl as a continuous curve visually. A small foot the size of a quarter allows the eye to build the curve through the foot.
I use a round bottom on a lot of my hollow forms and on a lot of natural edge bowls that are wider than tall.

If you take the time to balance the heights of the end and side rims a round bottom bowl will sit nicely.
They are much easier to finish than a small foot.

As far as rim heights
I think taller than wide natural edge bowls look fine with unbalanced rim heights.
Wider than tall look bad with with rim heights that are off 1/4" to 1"
They look great if the rims are off 2 or more inches. Then the wall needs to be relatively thin and foot is needed.

I re-chuck all my natural edge bowls between centers. I have a vacuum chuck but I can be finished with bowl before I can hook it up.
And pulling air through a thin wet piece is a recipe for cracking it as it dries too fast.

You can re-chuck natural edge bowls with a doughnut chuck by putting a piece of PVC pipe of suitable length and diameter in the base of the doughnut chuck and covering it with foam. This provides a standoff for the rims so they don't hit the base of the doughnut chuck.

Have fun,
Al
 
Last edited:
Back
Top