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What other turners aren't telling you, and how that relates to "innovative spirit"!

odie

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Good morning! :D

My little exchange with Owen reminded me of another aspect of the woodturning community that, IMHO, is true.......

As woodturners, we are a community that is interested in promoting the craft among other turners. Most turners would gladly relay all that they know to other turners, because that's just the kind of people we are! This statement is generally true......but, there is a point where it exceeds reality!

There are many very good, and even very great woodturners, who do nothing that isn't already common knowledge, or at least available information to others. For them, it is a skill that is mastered.......not an accumulation of concepts that are being independently developed. This probably covers a segment of the woodturning community greater than 99.999%......and it's fantastic to have all this knowledge freely given. It promotes the community spirit, and that is a good thing!

There is the other side of the coin, however. Just as it is true for some successful race car mechanics, or some highly regarded artists, to keep certain things, procedures, knowledge private, or secret......it is also true with some uniquely accomplished woodturners. (This is why the whole concept of patents exist in the first place!) All of this is simply a matter of human nature.......and, the bottom line is we are bound by instinct to keep some unique knowledge free to influence our concept of our own individuality.......or identity, if you will.

For the great majority of turners, there is nothing they do that hasn't been learned from others.......but, there are a few that still have the lights on, and are out there tinkering, experimenting, mostly failing, but sometimes succeeding......doing things that are inspired strictly by an innovative spirit. When unique knowledge is gained in this way, and it becomes important to their own unique results.......well, it's human nature, or instinct that governs how that discovery, or ability, is applied to one's own individuality......and is cherished more than community spirit, as a driving force.

Of course, there are always those who will say "there is nothing new under the sun", and they are probably right to a very high degree, but not in every single thing, or case. The point is that the majority of very accomplished turners will tell you everything they know.........but, there are a few who don't. The more applicable phrase would be, "There are some very accomplished turners who will tell you almost everything they know!"

Anything less than this is just an unreasonable expectation, considering the instincts and motivation of human nature.

ooc


(All of this is an opinion.)
 
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Odie, I assume you are not talking strictly about the sharing of techniques ...

A teacher can provide the kindling for innovative spirit to ignite, but the student herself must personally activate what's inside herself during the learning exprience--teaching is a two-way street.


Betty Scarpino, Editor, American Woodturner
 

Bill Boehme

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.... to keep certain things, procedures, knowledge private, or secret......it is also true with some uniquely accomplished woodturners. (This is why the whole concept of patents exist in the first place!) All of this is simply a matter of human nature.......and, the bottom line is we are bound by instinct to keep some unique knowledge free to influence our concept of our own individuality.......or identity, if you will.

That is an interesting point of view, but hoarding knowledge is something that I haven't encountered in woodturning nor in my professional career nor do I believe that it is innate. There is no doubt that some people do operate from that perspective, but what strikes me as pointless about being secretive is that you can't really have it both ways -- hiding what you do and showing your accomplishments for others to see (and hopefully admire). There's nothing about woodturning that can be considered rocket science. Skill and creativity are what sets some apart from the herd.

Concerning patents -- bad comparison --trade secrets and patents are entirely different things. There is nothing secret about patents since they go into great detail. Otherwise, how would it be possible to pursue a claim of infringement?
 

odie

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Odie, I assume you are not talking strictly about the sharing of techniques ...

A teacher can provide the kindling for innovative spirit to ignite, but the student herself must personally activate what's inside herself during the learning exprience--teaching is a two-way street.


Betty Scarpino, Editor, American Woodturner

Hello Betty........

Yes, pretty much what my focus was all about, is the passing of techniques and methods. I'm going to further extend that thought a bit, and include "*innovation" as a component of the total. I don't know if you understood that I was not talking about teachers teaching, but attempted to encompass the entire woodworking community, in the sense that we all are, or could be providers of information to the community. Because some may choose to withhold information, it is neither good nor bad, in my opinion. It is what it is because individualism, and a need to preserve that within the group is a strong motivating factor that is naturally a part of humanity.

You are absolutely right that some teachers have the ability to inspire great things like enthusiasm, motivation, and creativity in their students, but these things must exist within the possibilities, or make-up of that person's soul to begin with. (Which is exactly what I took your meaning to be.......:D)

ooc

* Innovation considered as an application, not as a concept, or when thought of as a trait one person may have. The latter two meanings would be difficult to pass on to someone else, unless they were open to a philosophical shift.......but an application of innovation certainly can.
 
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First, Odie, patents are not to withhold or hide knowledge. A patent is provided so that the creator of the object or process can preserve the commercial rights to the idea. That process, however, requires full and very detailed disclosure of the knowledge. "Trade Secrets" on the other hand, such as formulas (the recipe for Coke) or pricing structures that may confer competitive advantages are always kept under lock and key; some literally.

Teaching in the Arts is at once far more and mush less that just sharing knowledge. On the base level it is mechanical instruction in 'How To' kinds of things; the kind of knowledge you speak about when woodturners share techniques or do demonstrations at symposia and such.

The tough part of teaching is acting as a guide for each student to help them find and harness their own creative core. Everyone has it, people who we regard as artists have more easily gotten in touch with and tapped that personal core. This is where the student must take charge of their own "lessen" so that everything they make becomes a learning experience, and everything they do carries some excitement as they give physical existence to their idea and discover what the idea really looks like.

I can teach someone how to draw, carve, use a potter's wheel, use a wood lathe, or any of a bunch of processes that can be used to give expression to a creative idea. I can help someone analyze what they are doing and help them select a mode or methods that may be more likely to produce the result they seek. It was up to the student, however, to decide how or what to use what I gave them.
 

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Mark and Bill.......

Good point about the patent comment......."trade secret" would have been a much better example of my meaning. This is a very minor thing, and most readers are going to understand what was intended.

Many readers are going to understand the main meaning of my message, and there are those who don't......it was expected from the start.

ooc
 
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Odie,
I basically agree and would be surprised if there weren't turners who protect their ideas, techniques, (and wood sources). But, as Bill commented, it’s a Catch-22 situation; you can’t show anyone your innovative work without risking they’ll reverse engineer the idea. Creative people are very good at this. They may not take it back to the same tools, materials, or techniques, but they will come up with some way to replicate the end result.

I think the secretiveness stems from lack of parental attention and approval. The adult basks in the short term praise the work generates, however, in time, as others replicate the work, embitterment and crotchetiness is reinforced. </mostly-tongue-in-cheek ;)>
 
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You've raised an interesting topic, Odie.

There was a similar discussion some time ago an international penturners forum.

Two issues were raised there that are germaine here, I think.

The first was that there could be a natural inclination to keep your techniques or methods secret when you are in a competitive commercial environment. It would not be shocking to think that someone who really did develop a new technique for turning pens or other turned items, and who sold their end products, would want to keep that technique to himself/herself. Their livelihood may depend on having something for sale that is different from the competition.

The second issue raised in that other forum was the seeming expectation that someone showing a new design should immediately post a step by step tutorial on how it was accomplished. There were those who were quite upset when their request for such a tutorial, including pictures, was refused.

My experience is that, without exception, when I've asked a more experienced turner for advice on how to tackle a problem that I'm having, the response was always gracious and generous to a fault. However, I think that I would be in the wrong if I took the position that such information sharing was somehow an obligation on the one providing it.
 
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Hi Odie

I've been a member for quite a while but I've never been inspired to post until now.

As a bit of an introduction, I'm a professional production turner based in the uk. You may know of me from my articles in Woodturning magazine.

My personal opinion is that technique is so important and vastly over looked by the majority of hobbyists. Most turners don't want to practice technique, most don't have time. They see a piece in a magazine or online and want to have a go. They then try to work out how to do it. There's nothing wrong with this approach but there can be an element of luck in the outcome. With good technique you can achieve pretty much whatever you want to.

Going back to the op, as a demonstrator I teach mostly technique (on the way to achieving a final goal) most people appreciate this approach although some feel it can be a bit basic. Personally, I'm not a particularly artistic turner, IMO, you can only really teach technique, the rest is down to imagination and creativity. Combining various techniques with imagination to make something new. You can't teach creativity or imagination.

Just my thoughts. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Richard
 
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There may be one other perspective overlooked here, the ability to convey these methods to someone else. There are those that can perform greatness but could not teach, or explain how they accomplished their works in terms others understand.
 
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Hi Odie


My personal opinion is that technique is so important and vastly over looked by the majority of hobbyists. Most turners don't want to practice technique, most don't have time. They see a piece in a magazine or online and want to have a go. They then try to work out how to do it. There's nothing wrong with this approach but there can be an element of luck in the outcome. With good technique you can achieve pretty much whatever you want to.

Going back to the op, as a demonstrator I teach mostly technique (on the way to achieving a final goal) most people appreciate this approach although some feel it can be a bit basic. Personally, I'm not a particularly artistic turner, IMO, you can only really teach technique, the rest is down to imagination and creativity. Combining various techniques with imagination to make something new. You can't teach creativity or imagination.

Just my thoughts. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Richard
You echo my sentiments exactly.
 
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Odie,
I'm not sure the "seasoned" turner is going to not share his tip or technique. If he is seasoned and afraid to share then that just shows some insecurities on their part.their name, recognition, and above all else, their confidence should keep them from doing that. I guess I could be wrong though...
 
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I'm old enough to remember the fifties and early sixties when the old artisans still existed in Rome, the city where I grew up. As a kid I liked to spend time in the cabinet making shop under my apartment and spend a few hours a week there. The maestro was kind enough to let me stay and... watch. Yes watch.
You must steal the "mestiere" (art, craft, etc) with your eyes the adagio went.
Unfortunately that generation is disappearing and very few pupils left. Too little money in craft.

Technique is extremely important, number one I should say mainly to be safe, and that was said by the maestro, like never do this, never do that...but it was never said a positive like do this in this way or that in that way. The all idea that was going on in every "bottega" since ancient time was that if one does not get the "mestiere" with his own eyes he is not fit for that craft.

Now something else is going on. There is more people that make things for pleasure rather that for a living and the professional craftman must teach to make a living. It is a radical change.
 
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There may be one other perspective overlooked here, the ability to convey these methods to someone else. There are those that can perform greatness but could not teach, or explain how they accomplished their works in terms others understand.

Peter, you're right on the edge of the old saying of
"Them who can't (do it), teach others how." [There's a corollary that I need not go to.] There seems to be an institutionalized concept that you can park your brain at the door when you go to art class (or shop or music, etm). When I taught, I got tagged to travel in the system and do in-service for staff in other schools. I was shocked at how little other art teachers were able to visually analyze and then verbally explain a given piece. They were quite willing to speak about process and technique, but when asked to talk about an example of a project, they'd "run home" to talk, and make judgments about, how well the technique was used. It was clear that all they had been taught to teach was the "how to" side of things.

The arts in the U.S. are woefully undervalued in our education system. I've gone head-to-head with administrators who openly display the attitude that the only things that come out of the art rooms are dirt and loud music. (I actually threw a Superintendent of Schools out of my ceramics class. He an I later became rather good friends.) It has resulted in another homily
"I don't know nuthin' 'bout Art, but I know what I like."
 
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odie

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I've been out to the shop for the past few hours, and just returned for dinner.....

There has been quite a few great posts entered since I left. Some great thinking material here. Thanks.

I do have one comment about reverse engineering. If the end product were different than the same product produced by someone else......then, yes.....reverse engineering would be applicable. Now, let's just say that you've discovered how to produce a widget that holds tolerance standards tighter than others can make. Other than that, there is no difference. To my thinking, it would be impossible to reverse engineer a product that has achieved a goal that others who are making the exact same product only wish they could do......How can you "reverse engineer" that?

In terms that are applicable to those on this forum, let's say you've developed a completely new grind shape for a gouge, along with a new way to use it. If the product you're making is a bowl (for instance), then others can certainly duplicate your shape and design........but, it is next to impossible to come up with the new gouge grind and the technique unique to that grind.:D

Again......thanks for commenting everyone. It has been an interesting exchange.

ooc
 
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I am currently editing a project article that describes how to make an XXX. Except ... there are trade secrets for the inside of this object, which have been developed and perfected for years by various makers. Anyone can make an XXX, but it takes years to perfect the inside.

Normally, I would want the author (a professional turner) to reveal all techniques and "secrets." In this case, however, the real beauty of the various XXX's is their individuality. So, in my opinion, the author is doing us a favor by giving general instructions, but not specific directions for making his XXX.

It's been my observation (and pleasure!) that almost all turners share techniques. Owning techniques does not make a turner any better than any other turner, just different. The difference is how others use, combine, and apply the techniques he learns.

Betty Scarpino, Editor (for a few more months :D), American Woodturner
 
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I don't see myself as a top notch turner or do I see what I do new or different.I did not get lessens from no one. I do not wish to turn things like other do because I would be them. I do not mind helping others learn to turn and become who they are. and if I ever good or well known I will sell ya the book or dvd and you can be just like me too! when I gave guitar lessens and a young kid says to me I what to be just like johnny cash! and I said why don't you want to be you?
GaryBaroneWoodturner on facebook
 
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Normally, I would want the author (a professional turner) to reveal all techniques and "secrets."

Betty Scarpino, Editor (for a few more months :D), American Woodturner

I agree only partially. As I said in my previous post, in the botteghe (shops) of the old artists and craftsman, the helper/s had to do all the chores like cleaning, sharpening, etc before doing some real work. When time came, usually after years of apprenticeship, after learning by watching and thus showing his/their interest and inclination for the art or craft he could start to do the "real" work. A little of what happened to Escoulen when he was apprenticing in his father shop and look at what he can do with the bedan!!
Now we live in times in which crafts are generally an hobby and one week or two days or a few hours of school give anybody the "license" to be and do anything. I know people that believe they are loggers after having attended a couple of classes!

If we look at the work of the old masters we realize that very few things are a really new, and mainly for technological advances and certainly not personal skill or expertise.

The general technique of using the various tools helps in preventing injuries and learning the potentiality of the tools, and all this can be tought but beyond this there is little that one cannot learn by himself, or better with the help of books, videos, you tube etc. and just watching better turners.

What Modigliani (my favorite "modern" painter) or Van Gogh had to teach? Nothing and all at the same time. Their picture are there for everybody to see in great detail. All their "secrets" are there, exposed to the public. What else could they tell us that is not already in their canvases?
 
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"Trade secrets"

What Modigliani (my favorite "modern" painter) or Van Gogh had to teach? Nothing and all at the same time. Their picture are there for everybody to see in great detail. All their "secrets" are there, exposed to the public. What else could they tell us that is not already in their canvases?[/QUOTE]

How about something that you can't see, such as preservation of the masterpiece without deterioration of the paints??
i.e "I am selling red box elder and I have a finish on it that absolutely won't fade and I'm not gonna reveal my secret formula".!!!!!!! BTW Gretch does not have a secret formula!!!!!!This has been an issue many times on this forum. Gretch
 
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Sergio, in some sense, the line you quoted from me: "I would normally want the author to reveal all techniques or secrets" is out of context. I'm referring to being editor of a journal, where articles, written by experts, tell others how to achieve success in making something. Keeping back essential information is (generally) not good policy.

However, if a turner or artist or baker or "The Master" wants to keep special techniques secret, that's her prerogative, but don't pretend to teach or demonstrate as though you are revealing everyting. But with that said, I agree there is a difference between the apprentice system and current methods of learning a craft. It takes years to truly master a craft. One or two classes or demonstrations does not make someone an expert. (Although he may believe he is.)

For me personally, I freely share the techniques and methods I have learned over the years. Doing so enriches my life.

The exciting, fun part of what we do is the hours we spend in our shops exploring new techniques and methods.

Betty Scarpino, Editor, American Woodturner
 
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kinda skimmed but sometimes sharing information isn't possible

Sometimes sharing information is dangerous unless you are face to face with a person and can assess their level of skill. After assessing their level of skill you might consider the information safe to share, you might not.

I interacted with the world's best rifle and load tuners and marksmen for years. We were way out on the fringes of development in some areas. The books simply say to paraphrase only slightly, "do this and die!" No way to share some of this information with even very experienced typical reloaders and tinkerers. A person has to fully understand all aspects of what they are doing.

Building race car engines was another area, sharing my information with someone that wasn't going to incorporate all of it would cost them thousands of dollars and they would blame me for their poor implementation. I built a very successful engine. I explained to the person I sold it to how it had to be rebuilt. It was sold a couple more times, rebuilt, and came to pieces ten minutes later at a fast idle in the shop!

I needed a skew for a small project a few weeks ago. I still don't own a skew. Knowing the dangers and how to mitigate them I used a high quality wood chisel to take care of things. I won't routinely use a wood chisel as a skew and I surely won't tell anyone else to use one but I needed a specialty tool and made it on my wood lathe.

Unique ideas and patents are another can of worms. I designed a unique piece of equipment. A grand gentleman of the sport wanted to look at it so I sent him part of it with a guarantee of confidentiality. Three months later a friend of his brought that part of my design to market, unique in several hundred years of the sport! Unless you have been there you can't imagine the long burning anger that creates. Reading all over the internet what a wonderful design he created! Never brought my full design to market and it will be a blue day in hell before I reveal it unless I decide to bring it to market.

Hu
 
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Sometimes sharing information is dangerous unless you are face to face with a person and can assess their level of skill. After assessing their level of skill you might consider the information safe to share, you might not. ........

..... it will be a blue day in hell before I reveal it unless I decide to bring it to market. Hu

Agree about the sometimes-dangerous-to-share comment. Not every demonstrator understands that, though. And then there are the students who simply ought not to be using sharp tools, no matter how competent the teacher! :eek:

Your unfortunate experience of having someone violate a request of confidentiality is not uncommon and it recently happened in the turning field. It was painful for the turner who shared his proprietary, personal technique (after much badgering and agreeing to confidentiality). He won't do that again and no doubt neither will you.

Betty Scarpino, Editor, American Woodturner
 

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... Unique ideas and patents are another can of worms. I designed a unique piece of equipment. A grand gentleman of the sport wanted to look at it so I sent him part of it with a guarantee of confidentiality. Three months later a friend of his brought that part of my design to market, unique in several hundred years of the sport!....

Too bad that you didn't know about NDA's at the time and I am guessing that you also didn't properly document the development of your new invention. Both are necessary for your protection if you need to share information about it. If it was something that you truly did have plans to patent and market then you received a lesson on what not to do the hard way.
 
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This subject is so broad. If I've developed a unique tool and don't want it copied then I would have my patent prior to taking it to market. Artistic design is a big grey area. I know some turners like to think they have a certain trademark design, some on form, some on finials, etc. and I've seen some get upset over "their" design being copied. Kind of ridiculous since the basis of the design is copied to begin with. I, myself go through books and mags looking for a design that will work for a given blank.
As for proprietary technique, that's interesting. What's going to happen to the art media industry with the technology advancing in the 3d printer market?
 
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wood presentation (display) or technique in turning rotation

major consideration

audience.........galley viewer or turners of range of ablity
 
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patents and intellectual properties

Too bad that you didn't know about NDA's at the time and I am guessing that you also didn't properly document the development of your new invention. Both are necessary for your protection if you need to share information about it. If it was something that you truly did have plans to patent and market then you received a lesson on what not to do the hard way.



Bill,

I had already worked in R&D on military projects for one company and was the VP of another R&D corporation. Not big operations but the owner of the company I was VP of held over eighty patents, he made money on two. I had been presented with handfuls of NDA's and ND/NCA's. Some I signed, some I didn't because they were too broad. Design and documentation were my fields of expertise, oversight of subcontractors was added later.

Unfortunately I know a great deal about patents, copyrights, and defending both. I own over ten thousand copyrighted pieces of work. I still don't make them available on the net for other people to steal.

Patents are a wonderful thing for multi-million dollar ideas. For small niche items likely to be worth only tens of thousands a year or less patents don't even make good toilet paper.

I can tell horror stories about patents and intellectual property for days. Simple truth, rights are worth nothing unless you can afford to defend them and few can. Once you send a cease and desist letter and it is ignored you have to make a decision. First who are you fighting? If they are a foreign entity or have very deep pockets, forget about it! If they are a small entity then the question becomes is the idea worth tens of thousands minimum to defend easily rolling into hundreds of thousands. Even if you win a substantial portion of plaintiffs don't get legal expenses covered. You may not get any compensation for losses either, only a cease and desist order against the other maker. One inventor I know of went to court and ultimately got a cease and desist order against him! He lost all rights to his invention with zero compensation of any kind.

I haven't reviewed patent law from a layman's viewpoint in many years now but the last I knew 10% change and the patent hasn't been violated. Color doesn't count as a change, material usually doesn't. After that the percentage change is in the eyes of the judge or jury. Patent defenses involve huge risks and you are never guaranteed to win no matter how slam dunk of a case you think you have.

Hu
 

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....Unfortunately I know a great deal about patents, copyrights, and defending both.

OK, now that I know a bit more about your background, it seems like a simple case of someone who was a trustworthy good buddy who turned out to not be very deserving on both counts. Being cheated is bad enough -- cheated by a friend is pretty low.
 
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I thought a friend and highly regarded by all

OK, now that I know a bit more about your background, it seems like a simple case of someone who was a trustworthy good buddy who turned out to not be very deserving on both counts. Being cheated is bad enough -- cheated by a friend is pretty low.



Bill,

He was a man I had interacted with a great deal on the internet, both on forums and private communications, had talked to him on the phone a few times, and was one of the most highly regarded men in a sport that was and is well known for many fine gentlemen involved. I don't know if he was deliberately or accidentally involved in the theft of my design, he certainly was involved. I sent him an e-mail about it ten or fifteen years ago. Not positive but beginning to be pretty sure he isn't going to reply.

I did get the pleasure of hammering the thief in the ground like a tent peg on public forums a time or two. As you would expect the person that designed the unit understood the concepts behind it far better than the thief. That was and is all the satisfaction I'll ever get.

Edit: Just went and checked, the thief is still making money off my design all these years later!

Hu
 
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Sergio, in some sense, the line you quoted from me: "I would normally want the author to reveal all techniques or secrets" is out of context. I'm referring to being editor of a journal, where articles, written by experts, tell others how to achieve success in making something. Keeping back essential information is (generally) not good policy.

Betty Scarpino, Editor, American Woodturner

Yes, I took your line out of context and I apologize for that. My point does not apply to an article in a specialized journal. I certainly know this since I've been in a scientific profession all my working life and publish numerous papers in the medical field where everything should be true and repeatable, therefore the section "material and methods" must be exhaustive and clear and the results well detailed.

But I believe I made my point clear in my two posts: in the pasts nobody would waste their time sharing informations, perhaps except on safety, on a person that was not willing to learn just by watching thus showing lack of interest or skills.

Once the basic technique and safety is learned it is up to the turner to practice, practice and practice. Today I went to see the Leonardo exhibition at the Morgan Library and Museum in NYC. Looking at the drawing of that young girl one understand that everybody interested to learn from Leonardo there is only to spend hours to comprehend the perfection of the Leonardo touch that is there for everybody to appreciate and see, no secrets.

The mastering of a technique, tools, and medium, took and take years. Now everything is different, we turn for the most part for hobby and the professional teach, at home or in shows and everything is based on speed. I've seen bowl turners demonstrating in shows their skill mainly on incredible speed, showing half a pound chips flying, shaping a bowl in a few seconds. This exercise of speed is certainly useless and dangerous and may be needed in only few particular cases.

A good turner should be able to keep the shape cleanly at three hundred RPM thus making a single pass in twenty second and not in five. Like they did three hundred years ago: sharp tool, a good hand and no sandpaper!
 

odie

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Yes, I took your line out of context and I apologize for that. My point does not apply to an article in a specialized journal. I certainly know this since I've been in a scientific profession all my working life and publish numerous papers in the medical field where everything should be true and repeatable, therefore the section "material and methods" must be exhaustive and clear and the results well detailed.

But I believe I made my point clear in my two posts: in the pasts nobody would waste their time sharing informations, perhaps except on safety, on a person that was not willing to learn just by watching thus showing lack of interest or skills.

Once the basic technique and safety is learned it is up to the turner to practice, practice and practice. Today I went to see the Leonardo exhibition at the Morgan Library and Museum in NYC. Looking at the drawing of that young girl one understand that everybody interested to learn from Leonardo there is only to spend hours to comprehend the perfection of the Leonardo touch that is there for everybody to appreciate and see, no secrets.

The mastering of a technique, tools, and medium, took and take years. Now everything is different, we turn for the most part for hobby and the professional teach, at home or in shows and everything is based on speed. I've seen bowl turners demonstrating in shows their skill mainly on incredible speed, showing half a pound chips flying, shaping a bowl in a few seconds. This exercise of speed is certainly useless and dangerous and may be needed in only few particular cases.

A good turner should be able to keep the shape cleanly at three hundred RPM thus making a single pass in twenty second and not in five. Like they did three hundred years ago: sharp tool, a good hand and no sandpaper!

I'm a little envious of those closer to cultural centers of the world, who have access to exhibits like this regularly. Being in the presence of works from time honored masters, must have a certain heavenly effect on one's being.

It's a little too far reaching to suggest there can be a lot to learn from Leonardo da Vinci, by simply seeing his great works.......because his great works isn't "him". Sure, all that is Leonardo isn't lost to time, but the real physical man, in the flesh, is long gone. The same is true for any master of the arts who is no longer with us.....there is a limited amount of learning that can be done by listening to Paganini's Caprices, or seeing the works of a great turner who has passed, like the late Dale Nish. This isn't to say that nothing can be learned, but the chance to know what was in the internal mental workings of past masters is gone.

I do understand the value of apprenticeship, and "seeing" the results of a craft happen with your own eyes. That must have been the kind of learning experience that is all but lost to today's world. We can go to a great artist/craftsman's shop and visit.......but the opportunity to do this for a period of years isn't available, but to a very few who are lucky enough to have the time, circumstance, and interest to learn such refined skills. For those who don't have this kind of opportunity, we only have videos, books, and an occasional live demonstration. The same kind of refined skills can be learned, just the same as someone who apprenticed......but, it all depends on the enthusiasm, talent, and internal drive of the individual seeking to achieve that kind of results. We cannot discount the fact that this kind of dedicated person, even though he doesn't have the same learning opportunities, can achieve incredible results, by sheer initiative, dedication, and internal drive......simply because humanity still does, and will always produce this kind of individual.

ooc
 
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looking at the work of masters

Looking at the work of masters or watching them work can change our understanding of what is possible. Forty years ago I watched a master when he was having a great day, just on TV. It changed my concepts of what was possible and over the next two to three years I achieved a level of performance that I wasn't even attempting before!

Ten years ago I watched a master who once again expanded my idea of what was possible. Unfortunately I realized my time had passed and it would never be possible for me.

Things are easier to do once they have been done. In fifteen years of efforts nobody shot a perfect score at a local pistol match. Six hundred was perfect, dozens of 599's and 598's had been shot. One night in a rain squall a shooter with lesser physical abilities tore down the 600 barrier, he understood the mental game. A few years later there had been over a dozen six hundreds shot despite some of the best in the world, masters and grandmasters, and a many time world champion and world record holder shooting in that earlier fifteen years.

Yesterday's woodturners made functional pieces and the quality often reflected that. The general standard of excellence is far higher now than it has ever been, not only because of tools and techniques but because of expectations also. Depending on what tomorrow brings, the golden age of woodturning is right now.

Hu
 

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Sergio, the more I read of your posts, the more I appreciate your perspective on turning and art. I thought that it was an interesting coincidence yesterday when I returned home from a day at the Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth and then read your post regarding art. The Carter is primarily known as a museum focusing on works related to the American west featuring many of the paintings and sculptures of Remington and Russell, but this was the last weekend of a special exhibition that featured paintings and sculptures by Monet, Van Gogh, Marin, Eakins, Feininger, and Picasso.

I agree with your views that the skills and creativity developed through years of training set those woodturners apart from the average woodturner of today. However, I would like to add my point of view since I am one of those average turners.

Many, maybe even most, people getting interested in the resurgence of woodturning today are retired. Regardless of how we view the ways that the world has changed, there is no doubt that the apprentice system is a thing of the past. I retired after a career in engineering and had been involved in woodworking most of my adult life, but at that time woodturning was about as foreign to me as anything could possibly be. Things like table legs, balusters, and chair rungs were what I envisioned when I thought about woodturning.

Despite my ignorance, the woodturning bug bit me after retirement. If woodturning were still considered a skilled craft still requiring a rigid system of years long apprenticeship, it would have immediately quashed my interest and I suspect the same is true for a great many other woodturners today. It wouldn't take much stretch of the imagination to believe that the small industry that has grown in support of woodturning would never have happened without all of the average people who have taken an interest in turning.

I have taken many classes from professionals as well as attending demonstrations from many more. I don't know of anybody in any of my classes who have had any delusions of greatness after taking any of these classes. Generally, the exact opposite is the case. Regardless of the specific subject matter, the fundamental thing that I gained was enhancement of my turning skills by gaining a new perspective. I have also gained exposure to a great many new ideas. I love turning simply for its therapeutic value. I have zero interest in being a professional turner -- I've already enjoyed a career and now I'm enjoying my retirement. I turn things for my wife, for my friends and relatives, and for fundraising events like the Empty Bowls Project.

When I see the turned objects on display in the instant gallery at symposiums, I am convinced that today's high level of information sharing is undoubtedly a major factor contributing to the explosive evolution in our art. Perhaps it is not too surprising if we consider that many of the beautiful ornamental turnings of a few centuries ago were created by those who had the resources and the luxury of leisure time for creative pursuits. While the production turners or bodgers were very highly skilled and made beautiful balusters and other spindles as well as other household utility pieces, creating fanciful pieces of art wasn't likely to be on their "to do" list. Of course, today some of their creations that have survived have tremendous value.
 
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hockenbery

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Some studies done across different media suggest that it takes 10,000 hours of work/practice to become successful in the arts.

One of the beauties of woodturning is that we can be successful at all levels.

A simple object like a spin top:
We have had 8 year olds complete 3 in a two hour class
Bonnie Klein/Jacques Vesery tops sell in the $10,000 - $20,000 range

I saw the pride of accomplishment in Jacques and Bonnie's eyes and john's eyes too. I think john was more excited.

I have had an opportunity to see first hand as a student, assistant, and teacher the benefits of taking classes.
I have become convinced students learn 20 times as much in 5 day class as they do in a 1 day workshop.

students leave any class with improved skills, confidence, and ideas.

In a one day workshop all the students complete a project but after a week at their day job few can repeat the project with the level of success the had under the watchful eye.

5 day classes follow a general pattern
Day 1 Basic skills and sharpening often with a project familiar to most students
Days 2-3-4 stretching the students into new directions, more advance skills, forms...
Day 5 individual work

In every class an amazing thing happens between day 3 and 4. The students begin interacting with each other on techniques, form.....
A week after the 5 day class the students retain most of the skills and ideas.

Al
 
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Yes, it takes very little time do do something pleasing and satisfying. In almost every art or profession. Plying an instrument is something that many people play by ear, other by learning in conservatoriums and is a magnificent thing. Not everybody can be a Mozart! This is the beauty of doing things in a noncompetitive way. Just doing something beautiful or useful is a pleasure and gives a sense of fulfillment. I believe that real arts and crafts should be thought in schools, and that a more peaceful society could be built by learning, playing and enjoying his/her own hidden potentiality without the competitiveness that characterizes our society. But this is another matter...
 
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"Trade Secrets"

This is not intended to be an answer or response to any specific question, statement or response. This is just my opinion, my feelings about time, it's value and what we "owe" each other as woodturners:

I read a lot of this and skimmed the rest. One thing I didn't see was a conversation about "time = money." And/or when or where the information was sought out. And, time - just how long it might take to PROPERLY explain a concept or technique.

For instance, I found myself in a conversation with David Elsworth between rotations at the AAW symposium in Tampa. He was pleasant and attentive, responded as directly as I could imagine. Each answer seemed to lead me to another question (and for the life of me, I don't remember what it was about now).
At what was probably too long a period of time, I realized that I could easily have held him captive for hours and that he probably wasn't benefiting from me in any way (that I could imagine). Having recognized my greed, I thanked him and released him back into the stream of the waiting.
MOOD/ATTITUDE/CIRCUMSTANCES: might dictate the kind of response one gets theirs AND yours. Sometimes people are not in the optimal mood to relate well to others. That should be considered and respected.
ABILITY/WILLINGNESS TO COMPREHEND: When I STARTED turning, I was a "know it all." I spent too long a time reinventing the wheel and rejecting what I now know would have been a lot of help (because I "NEEDED" to figure it out for myself). At some point, I realized that I was hurting myself and started to really listen. Prior to that, what I really wanted was your support for what I thought, NOT what would actually help.
Then I stared asking questions that were "above my pay grade." Thankfully, I was treated with respect but with the understanding that I wasn't really ready for that information yet.

As I have learned more, I have found myself on the other side of each of these equations to varying degrees. When I find myself trying to explain something that I feel is just "not going in," I try to back down to initial steps with a "get back to me" once that hurdle is jumped.
I LIKE TO, WANT TO help, but my time is valuable to me, as I am sure time is valuable to all of us. Asking the questions doesn't necessarily entitle one to complete and exhaustive answers. Woodturners are the most giving helpful artists, artisans I have encountered

BUT, I'm not sure I saw anyone ask:

What's the matter with wanting to keep something for one's self? Personally, I don't have any secret tricks of my own, and the few I have from others, I guard with my life.
 
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I am a full time turner who for many years kept part of what I do to myself. It did give me an edge. I taught a technique that was very close and for most satisfactory. Over time I kept getting calls and emails saying, Kelly you are holding something back. I am unable to achieve what you do. I have no idea how many folks in classes I in essence created my own competition. But I had an edge. I had worked with two other turners on formula after formula until we came up with one that we all went Bingo. And kept to ourselves. I then slowly modified that formula and the other two got away from turning. One day a guy who I had worked with a long time on tool work and the use of imagination on total form called me. He said, you *******, your holding something back. I thought about it and decided no more secrets. In a way I have regretted that decision. But I stood before our group, looked this man in the eye and said to all, get out a pencil its time for me to tell what I have been keeping to myself. After I laid it out this guy says, No wonder no one could do what you do.
I also disagree with Richard Findley. You can teach imagination and creativity. One person on this thread Betty Scarpino has had classes I have sat in on that did both. Many teachers spend a part of their demo time discussing just that. How to get out of your box is a topic many cover. It involves the use of creative imagination in most cases. Dont think so? Try this. Pick up an object that is stumping you so to speak. Or just put it in front of you. Stare at it. Your imagination will begin to give you creative ideas. You may not like or want to implement those that begin to come through. But they will come through. Do it enough times and you will convince yourself just how easy it is. Being able to act on the creativity you have imagined is another matter.
 
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Interesting Kelly,

You amplify Odie's question and raise an issue:

"Just because you can ask a question, what makes you think you're entitled to an answer?"

In the context of teacher & student, the answer is pretty plain that answers are the end product and there is a duty to give them provided they are part of what's supposed to be taught. After all, that's what "teach" is being paid for, right?

But when you're in a different situation, what is this "obligation" that your "********" name-caller invoked to lay everything you've worked hard to develop (discover, if you will) out there for others to use, abuse, or otherwise appropriate as their own?

Who are these idea vampires and where do they get off making such demands?

I've run into posters on this and other forums who think nothing of asking a complex question, getting several very good answers, simply going away without even a thank you to those who responded, and then get huffy when they come back for more and find a certain lack of response. It is, I submit, more and less than mere manners. It is an apparently arrogant attitude of entitlement.

Just because somebody likes what Kelly Dunn does and wishes he/she could do the same somehow gives them the right to demand that Kelly give them the gory how-to details? Really?
 
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I read a lot of this and skimmed the rest. One thing I didn't see was a conversation about "time = money."

..............

BUT, I'm not sure I saw anyone ask:

What's the matter with wanting to keep something for one's self? Personally, I don't have any secret tricks of my own, and the few I have from others, I guard with my life.

Sure, time can equal money, but time also equals enjoyment, happiness, friendship, love ... to name a few of life's pleasures.

Your skimming must have missed my comment: I see nothing wrong with keeping something for one's self. That's everyone's prerogative.

On the other hand, my world view is that there is enough wealth, friendship, love, techniques, wood, or whatever for everyone to have as much as they desire. I focus on those positive aspects of life rather than spending energy "protecting" a pile of secrets. But, to each his own beliefs and world views.


Betty Scarpino, Editor (for a few more months :D), American Woodturner
 
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