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removing bark?

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wouldn't you know it, my (new) next door neighbors are landscapers .........
They just gave me a mesquite log , 10" diam. x 14" tall (promising more to come :-D)

I'm not ready to turn natural edged stuff yet so .........
what is the best way to remove the bark?
bandsaw? roughing gouge? French Curve Negative Rake Scraper?
did a search, saw 1 post where someone said to possibly soak the wood and scrape off with something like a spokeshave ? .......

any suggestions? TIA
 
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To answer your question:
1. yes you can use a band saw and trim out the edges. this is the easiest way.
2. yes you can rough gouge it off if you stand clear. can get dangerous.

personally I have done both and also have laid up on the bench and chiseled it off. I like leaving some bark on my turnings since I have found people really like the look. You can look at my album and see some that has it both ways. Then again I do some natural edge stuff too.
 

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Mesquite bark is not very thick and stuck very tight to the wood except in early spring. I see not reason to remove the bark. It is extra work with little payback. Mesquite bark doesn't flake off in large chunks like some other types of wood are known to do.
 
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The best way to get the bark to come off easily is to decide you want it to stay on. I cut most of it off in the blank preparation. If there is still bark left on it, I turn slowly and stand out of the line of fire till all bark is off. Then I crank up the speed. I don't like pieces with bark on them. While they look nice, even minimal handling will result in pieces coming off. I prefer my pieces to be in use every day. Some natural edge pieces can have a nice profile, and with no bark are great utility bowls. Some bark can be removed with a chisel or pry bar by getting under it and prying. An impact hammer and a chisel bit works. Some woods if you let it sit for a month or 6 the bark will separate all by itself.

I do have a clip up on You Tube on standing out of the line of fire if you type in robo hippy.

robo hippy
 

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There is more than one reason to wear a face shield

One "hazard" of turning mesquite is the near certainty of getting "juiced" -- not from sap nor the street meaning of the word, but juice from mesquite beetle larvae. All mesquite comes with the larvae pre-installed. They self-activate when the tree is cut down or dies and munch their way to adulthood and creating large tunnels mainly through the yellow sapwood. They are plump and full of juice. Believe it or not, you can actually hear them chomping their way through the wood. That is one reason that turners like to turn mesquite immediately after it hits the ground. Other reasons include:
  • it turns wonderfully when green, but is dusty and hard when dry
  • it can be turned to completion green because there is little to no noticeable warping
 
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Thanks for the replies guys

figured the easiest way would be via bandsaw, and most dangerous via the roughing gouge
but since I'm new to this, wanted to double check
am definitely leery about trying something like that with a roughing gouge.........
I've learned from experience, give extra respect to the tools you're unfamiliar with ;)

Bill B, are you saying there is the larvae in all the wood? and does it leave hollow spots that interfere with turning ???
and Very happy for the info that when turned green that there is little to no warping when drying
this is definitely green as it was cut down yesterday LOL
and since I'll be getting plenty more in future is good to know I won't have to wait for drying/curing time, YaY!
Once final shape turned, should I still put in a sack of shavings for a couple days/week? or can I go ahead and apply final finish immediately ?
Also, if they start munching once tree is cut down, do I have any worries about keeping this near different woods?

In future, when I've got more time turning under my belt (experience) I will eventually create a piece or 2 that include the natural bark edge
but not just yet.........

robo hippy, I hear ya dude, when I want something to be one way, just the opposite will happen :rolleyes:

Bill Weaver, beautiful bowls, absolutely love the grains!
 
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I wouldnt say that the worm holes "interfere" with your work

but they can provide opportunity for enhancement.

fill with crushed turquoise or other bits and the piece looks that much nicer!
 

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Thanks for the replies guys

figured the easiest way would be via bandsaw, and most dangerous via the roughing gouge
but since I'm new to this, wanted to double check
am definitely leery about trying something like that with a roughing gouge.........
I've learned from experience, give extra respect to the tools you're unfamiliar with ;)

Bill B, are you saying there is the larvae in all the wood? and does it leave hollow spots that interfere with turning ???
and Very happy for the info that when turned green that there is little to no warping when drying
this is definitely green as it was cut down yesterday LOL
and since I'll be getting plenty more in future is good to know I won't have to wait for drying/curing time, YaY!
Once final shape turned, should I still put in a sack of shavings for a couple days/week? or can I go ahead and apply final finish immediately ?
Also, if they start munching once tree is cut down, do I have any worries about keeping this near different woods?

In future, when I've got more time turning under my belt (experience) I will eventually create a piece or 2 that include the natural bark edge
but not just yet.........

robo hippy, I hear ya dude, when I want something to be one way, just the opposite will happen :rolleyes:

Bill Weaver, beautiful bowls, absolutely love the grains!

Friends don't let friends dry mesquite. Turn it tonight. ;)

Beyond giving you a reason to clean your face shield, the mesquite borers do not interfere in any way with you turning the wood. If you turn it now, it is unlikely that you will find any borers, but if you wait a month, you will see little piles of yellow powder show up where the wood is stacked. Since mesquite often has a lot of "design features" like cracks and wind shake along with tunnels, they are just a normal component of things turned from mesquite. They can be turned away, left in, embellished or whatever else you can think of. Mesquite doesn't even need to have a finish applied. I frequently sand the wood with extremely high grits and it will develop a shine that, to me, looks better than applying a film or oil finish.

Sticking a turning in shavings isn't necessary and no better than just letting it sit on a shelf if you don't plan to finish it right away. In all likelihood the turning will be dry by the time that it has been turned and sanded unless turning something that will be thick when completed. One other thing, do not use a Beall buff on it ... if you do, you'll know why I said not to -- unless you actually like little white dots embedded in the pores of the wood.

If this doesn't sound like your cup of tea, I could do the humanitarian thing and take it off your hands. :cool:
 
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too late for tonight, but will be on the lathe tomorrow, guaranteed :)
and is good to know to expect cracks/holes/ and such,
as Shawn says, will give me a good excuse to work with the Inlace inlay compounds I have.........
and many thanks Bill for the further tips on the finishing, and not using the Beall buffing system

from the sound of it, I'm really going to enjoy working with this wood
and guess I'd better get a case of beer for the neighbor

If this doesn't sound like your cup of tea, I could do the humanitarian thing and take it off your hands
I appreciate the offer, but I'm an "alpha type" and actually do love the challenge :cool:
 
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roughing gouge

I notice you keep saying "roughing gouge". While you will probably be spinning that chunk in spindle orientation to remove bark that is a pretty big chunk and I doubt perfectly round. Not sure you want to use a roughing gouge on that to remove bark.

Just a thought,

Hu
 

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Hu, What would you use?

I noticed the "roughing gouge" remark as well, and passed over it. Hu is technically correct, you don't want to use a roughing gouge for roughing a bowl. We really do need to re-name that tool, because the name implies using it for all roughing cuts......when, in fact, it's dangerous for bowl roughing.

I use a plain ol' bowl gouge for roughing bowls.....

ooc
 
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I'm confused. If the OP is trying to remove bark with the wood mounted on the lathe then wouldn't it be in spindle orientation as Hu suggests?
Odie, you state you use a bowl gouge for roughing bowls. Isn't this a different orientation?
 
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nothing with a tang

Hu, What would you use?


Dwight,

Not always strictly correct by common usage but my rule of thumb is simple, I don't use anything with a tang for heavy work. A round shaft going into the handle is generally strong enough for any work you would want to do with the tool based on the size and cutting edge.

When doing heavy work, any tool that narrows down before going into a handle, the way a common file does, is suspect. It is generally agreed that a "roughing gouge" is a spindle roughing gouge and best suited for roughing fairly small diameter spindles with the grain orientation running from the headstock to the tailstock. The grain orientation is probably fine if you chuck the mesquite log section in the lathe on the two ends but the size and general characteristics of mesquite make me think that the strength of the spindle roughing gouge might be marginal. Fairly thick bark on the mesquite too so nature of the beast you might have a little more overhang past the tool rest than preferred.

As is often the case, not using the roughing gouge is working on the side of caution in this case even if the grain orientation indicates you are technically turning a spindle.

I favor leaving bark on if it is tight, removing it I use a bowl gouge if it won't peel readily on the bench. Sounds like this bark is tight, so turning should be fine. Any sign of loose areas and I prefer to peel. The loose bark rarely turns loose evenly and even "safe zones" aren't as safe as I would like.

Hu
 

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I'm confused.....

Grain orientation isn't everything -- spindles are small diameter and logs aren't. Logs are also not circular. This means interrupted cutting using a tool with a weak tang as Hu pointed out. Large diameter means that the forces on the tool are greater and interrupted cuts means that there will be shock loads hammering on the tool. The chances of an inexperienced turner getting a catch are high enough as it is without using the wrong tool to make it an almost certainty. Even without getting a major catch, the shape of an SRG make it more likely to scoop off a big piece of bark occasionally. A situation like this where an SRG (spindle roughing gouge) is used to remove the bark from a log could be handled by a well experienced turner, but I would hazard to guess that few would choose to use that tool. As Odie and Hu have said, use a bowl gouge. A bowl gouge can do anything that an SRG can do and more.

But, back to the question about removing the bark in the first place. If a tree is cut down in the early spring just as it is greening out, the wood will be loaded with water and the cambium layer especially. During that time of the year, bark can be slipped off a tree quite easily. I peeled the bark from a hickory tree with my bare hands one time after slipping a screwdriver under the bark to get it started. Generally, by summer the bark is pretty tight and by autumn removing the bark would be a real chore. So, if you want a natural edge sans bark, cutting the wood in early spring and then immediately removing the bark would be the easiest route. If you are using a bandsaw or chainsaw to cut the wood into manageable sized turning blocks then this is no longer an issue as you can leave or remove the bark to suit your purpose. If going straight from log to lathe and the wood isn't a type that likes to shed big chunks of bark then skip the extra (and unnecessary, in my opinion) step of turning the log into a smooth cylinder.
 

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Odie, you state you use a bowl gouge for roughing bowls. Isn't this a different orientation?

Yes, it is.

As Bill points out, it isn't necessarily the grain orientation that determines whether the SRG is appropriate.....it's that the block of wood is so much bigger than a spindle turning would normally be. One point he made was in regard to the "interrupted cutting". In my opinion, this is where the SRG can be particularly dangerous. No matter how steady you can hold the tool, there is always some give and take between cutting and not cutting cycles. The SRG, and the normal way of sharpening one means it can be extremely aggressive. These things can add up to one really huge catch.

ooc
 
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many thanks to all for their replies, thoughts, and comments
and you've all confirmed my suspicions I would have possibly went at it the wrong way
thank god for these forums (the active ones at least) where a newb like me can get the advice needed from the experienced.

hu, you were correct about my terminology, and I see I was incorrect about the choice of proper tool ........

Haven't mounted on lathe yet, did some examination of log this morning,
bark seems to be fairly loose and should come off pretty easily.
I'm thinking doing it either with bandsaw, or with a larger spokeshave I have in drawer.

still trying to decide whether I want to turn as 1 large bowl, or cut in 1/2 for 2 decent sized bowls,
or even trying a medium sized taller vase ( which would present me with even more questions LOL)

have spent hours trolling turning forums, even more hours watching training vids (beginner to intermediate)
and more training vids ordered and awaiting shipment.........
sure wish there was a place that held occasional classes near here ..........
There's a club here, they meet 1st sat. of month @ Woodworkers Emporium,
gonna attend next month and start to get networked with the local turners.........

but, cheers to everyone who's taken the time to explain and point in the right direction :cool:
 

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Yes, it is.

As Bill points out, it isn't necessarily the grain orientation that determines whether the SRG is appropriate.....it's that the block of wood is so much bigger than a spindle turning would normally be. One point he made was in regard to the "interrupted cutting". In my opinion, this is where the SRG can be particularly dangerous. No matter how steady you can hold the tool, there is always some give and take between cutting and not cutting cycles. The SRG, and the normal way of sharpening one means it can be extremely aggressive. These things can add up to one really huge catch.

ooc

Odie, your comments reminded me of a safety concern. When we are spindle turning and creating a cylinder out of square stock using the SRG, the size of the wood is small enough that the speed of the lathe can be cranked up to make interrupted cutting smoother. However, a log is much larger diameter, heavier, and not quite balanced. All these things work together to put a pretty severe limitation on how high we can set the lathe speed until things are rounder and in balance -- in other words, we have to start off slow. Running slow means, of course that we have to be much more careful about interrupted cuts. Even the slightest lapse in paying attention to what is going on can and will result in a dandy catch regardless of the tool. If the tool happens to be an SRG, the consequences of a catch pose a very serious danger to you.
 
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Bill Boehme, back to the mesquite issue ....
yall's premonition in my previous "where to get wood" thread has come true
guys from next door just dropped off 6 more logs, 12" x 26" , so now I really need to figure out how I'm gonna remove the bark

But , you also said not to use the Beall system , how do you finish/buff your Mesquite? just by hand?
is the wood that oily that sanding thru grits to 600 is enough?
or should I also apply a wax and hand buff?

TIA
 

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Bill Boehme, back to the mesquite issue ....
yall's premonition in my previous "where to get wood" thread has come true
guys from next door just dropped off 6 more logs, 12" x 26" , so now I really need to figure out how I'm gonna remove the bark

But , you also said not to use the Beall system , how do you finish/buff your Mesquite? just by hand?
is the wood that oily that sanding thru grits to 600 is enough?
or should I also apply a wax and hand buff?

TIA

The wood isn't oily at all, but it is hard after it is dry. If you are going to apply an oil finish or rattle-can lacquer spray then sand through P400 grit. No need to wax or buff. When I want to apply a wax on a lacquer finish, I use Johnson's Paste Wax. Apply with a paper towel and buff off with a soft cloth.

If I decide to leave the wood bare then I sand as before and then use Micromesh through 12,000 grit to get a glass like shine. Be forewarned that this is a lot of arm exercise and also if the surface isn't perfectly smooth all the dips and humps and wavy places will show up in all their glory. Getting this kind of results takes lots of patience and time.
 
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thanks for the tips Bill
I never use spray lacquers, all stuff will be a food safe finish of some sort........
guess I'll decide how/what to do when I get to that point.

Solved the debarking issue , damned stuff just pulled right off (with a little help)
as wet and sticky as it is, I can really imagine what it's gonna do to my gouges, etc. :rolleyes:
 

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Lacquer and shellac are both food safe, but if you are making treenware (meaning things to be used in the kitchen) an oil finish is a very good way to go because film finishes don't hold up to being washed. Some turners use mineral oil which is non drying, but it continues to soak throughout the wood and doesn't darken the wood the way that some other oils do. I have used mineral oil, but my favorite is walnut oil -- the kind that you buy in the grocery store where salad oils are sold. If you wish to use a wax over the oil finish, beeswax seems to be the favorite because it can be easily renewed by the customer whereas carnauba wax isn't.
 
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I read a discussion somewhere, maybe here, where some people thought the "food" oils (from grocery stores) were known to go rancid after a while
I presume since you propose this, that you haven't had that issue?

I usually work with Odie's products, heavy coat Odie's Oil, let dry, then apply Odie's wax, let dry and then buff out
if needed/desired, I could do multiple coats of waxing/buffing, but never more than 3 coats wax.......
same reason as you stated, customers can purchase and reapply in future when needed..........
Substituting Odie's wax for Beeswax not an issue with you ?

many thanks for pointing me in right direction,
have learned quite a few things for future projects :cool:
 

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Oils go rancid in their closed container when they get old and the fatty acids break down. Despite uninformed woodturner myths to the contrary, they don't go rancid from crosslinking with exposure to oxygen when applied to wood. For a bit of organic chemistry check out this article.

I have used La Tourangelle Roasted Walnut Oil from the grocery store for years. It gives the wood a wonderful aroma. It feels dry to the touch in a day and catalyzes slower than other oils, but should be essentially cured in a couple weeks. I would not want to use some of the paint store type oils like linseed oil because of the metallic salts contained in it.

I think it is possible that some turners have experienced problems when applying a film finish over uncured oil. Keep your finishes simple and pick one kind of finish to use. Combining a bit of everything in the hope of getting the best features of each is one way to create a finishing mess. You will also get all the worst features of each.
 
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I love Wiki, always very informative ;)
Will have to give the Walnut Oil a try
are all the same in the grocery stores? or should I look for something specific in the ingredients, and stay away from ?

TIA for all the advice and help, I'm really liking this community and it's involvement :cool:
 
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Bill Boehme

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I love Wiki, always very informative ;)
Will have to give the Walnut Oil a try
are all the same in the grocery stores? or should I look for something specific in the ingredients, and stay away from ?

TIA for all the advice and help, I'm really liking this community and it's involvement :cool:

I am only familiar with the brand that I mentioned. Not all stores will have much to choose from when it comes to gourmet oils. I am close to a local upper end market that carries the sort of things that a "foodie" would be looking for. If you have a Whole Foods or Central Market nearby then you might be able to find various oils such as walnut. The type in grocery stores might come in different grades -- sort of like olive oil where there is extra virgin, virgin, and dregs at the bottom of the barrel. For use on wood turnings, I don't think that the best grade or brand is necessary. However, I also use the walnut oil that I buy to make a really great walnut raspberry balsamic vinaigrette dressing. Top it off with some sliced roasted almonds and goat cheese on a spring mix to make a really tasty salad.
 
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The walnut oil in the grocery store is a lot different from the oils sold for finishes. If I have this right from Mike Merideth of The Doctor's Woodshop, the grocery store oil is pasteurized, and has been heated to the point where it will not cross link and cure. It does soak in though.

I love how threads diverge.....

robo hippy
 

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I love Wiki, always very informative ;) Will have to give the Walnut Oil a try are all the same in the grocery stores? or should I look for something specific in the ingredients, and stay away from ? TIA for all the advice and help, I'm really liking this community and it's involvement :cool:

We found the best buy to be in Whole foods. I use walnut oil on all my wood utensils and for all the finishing in our kids class.

They are using a food product. No dangers, except perhaps a nut allergy. Peanuts are not nuts!
All of our grocery store oils were dry to the touch in a couple of days. And repeated coats build up.
Never checked our labels for "pasteurization" makes sense heating could change it

We just had to send the projects home in paper towel and tell the kids to wipe off any excess in a few hours.

There are finishing products that are walnut oil. They have additives to make the oil dry faster or penetrate more.

Al
 
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The walnut oil in the grocery store is a lot different from the oils sold for finishes. If I have this right from Mike Merideth of The Doctor's Woodshop, the grocery store oil is pasteurized, and has been heated to the point where it will not cross link and cure. It does soak in though.

I love how threads diverge.....

robo hippy
He might be a biochemist, but I don't believe that he is totally correct about the effect of pasteurizing walnut oil. First of all pasteurization of walnut salad oil involves heating to 160° F for 30 minutes. That is not enough heating to alter the chemical composition of the oil to the point of precluding its ability to crosslink. It doesn't cure as hard as linseed oil (from flax seed), but as you stated it soaks completely into the wood anyway. Another favorite for treenware, mineral oil, which is a petroleum product, never dries, but you would never know it because it soaks thoroughly into the wood and helps to repel water.
 

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I've found the opposite can also be true -- when you want the bark to come off it will insist on holding tight. I generally prefer to do bark-free natural edges.

I always thought the best way to keep the bark is to not care if it stays.

I agree with you on no bark.
A lot of my natural edge bowls are functional. With bark no one will use them.

I like a contrasting sap ring and no bark.

I sometimes have to sand the bark off.

Al
 
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just like hockenbery, I want most my things to be functional, so also want no bark
but a sap ring as contrast doesn't sound bad, if it adds to final design/finish, never thought about that ......
had thought about slightly burning the edge for the same kind of detail.

But, if I were to do a piece strictly for the mantle and did want to keep the bark,
would I saturate it with thin CA 1st before turning, to ensure it stays on ?
Or would that not help when turning the initial shape/form?
 

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...But, if I were to do a piece strictly for the mantle and did want to keep the bark,
would I saturate it with thin CA 1st before turning, to ensure it stays on ?
Or would that not help when turning the initial shape/form?

I wouldn't saturate the bark with CA as that would probably not look good. Instead, just apply some thin CA along the cambium layer just before you approach the final shape. If the bark seems to be loose then you might need to apply CA sooner and then apply a bit more as you progress if it appears to be necessary.
 

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But, if I were to do a piece strictly for the mantle and did want to keep the bark, would I saturate it with thin CA 1st before turning, to ensure it stays on ? Or would that not help when turning the initial shape/form?

Mostly what Bill said.

The CA does two things
Glues the bark to the wood
Penetrates the bark to keep it from shrinking.

The bark typically shrinks a third more than the wood. This makes sanding a smooth surface where the bark meets the wood difficult and often leads to messing up the even walls I worked to get.
So where it soaks in let it; that is what keeps the bark from shrinking.
With the CA the bark will be slightly proud when dry and sands easily to form a surface with the wood. Bark sands much faster than wood. The CA harden the bark but it still sands fast.

I use the thin thin CA with tube spouts and gravity run a thin Line around the bark/cambium line. I don't want any CA on the wood. I used to put it in the outside and take another cut. But now I usually do both inside and outside off the lathe.

Wash the bowl, pat dry with a towel, run the CA around the outside and inside letting it run downhill.
Then after a day or two I sand the bowl.

There are also a couple of cuts I use to ensure the bark is not pulled off in the turning.
Al
 
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thanks again for the replies guys, all very helpful!

and just as an FYI, there was a very good write-up about Oils (and finishes) in this month's American Woodturner
 

Bill Boehme

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thanks again for the replies guys, all very helpful!

and just as an FYI, there was a very good write-up about Oils (and finishes) in this month's American Woodturner

Thanks for the information. My mailman hasn't finished reading my copy yet so I went online to take a peek. BTW, the article say that grocery store walnut oil has additives to preserve the shelf life and keep it from curing. Maybe so for some brands that is the case, but the brand that I buy says 100% pure walnut oil with no additives and no preservatives. The label also says to keep it refrigerated for longest shelf life. Some grocery store walnut oil does not require refrigeration so I suspect that those brands may have been modified with preservatives or even homogenized to break down the long molecular chains into smaller molecules that may be less likely to crosslink.
 
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