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Good bench grinder for sharpening tools

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Hi, am trying to get started on a budget. I could purchase a $99 grinder from Woodcraft, or I am wondering about buying a vintage motor + belted bench grinder pair at auction, since I had heard that ole time tools are much higher in quality than recent cheap entries.

Are there any cons to the belted setup? ie, belt could slip, making grinder speed variable or choppy, etc?
 
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Whatever setup you end up with that turns a grinding wheel make sure you have a way
of mounting a grinding jig under the wheels. Most wood turners end up using a jig to get
consistent grinds on the tools and speed up the time it takes to sharpen each tool.
 

Bill Boehme

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Tell me what title you would like and I'll change it.

I think that you would be much better served by buying the $99 bench grinder. An old motor may have sleeve bearings that are badly worn and replacements not available. If the sleeve bearings are worn the motor shaft will also be worn and can't be repaired. And you can't use just any old motor. It would need to be an AC induction capacitor start 4-pole TENV type (totally enclosed non-vented). It should be rated ½ to ¾ HP.
 

john lucas

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I'm with Bill. Much better to just buy what works instead of trying to coble together parts. I've done the cobble together and in the long run ended up buying the Woodcraft Grinder and it's served me well for many years. Another plus is the woodcraft grinder comes with good quality wheels for sharpening the tools we use. If you buy a cobbled together system it won't have the right wheels and you'll have to spend more money trying to get those. The two most valuable functions of a sharpening system are true running wheels and the proper wheels. If you get the Woodcraft grinder and the wheels don't run true it's pretty easy to fix that. If you buy a cobbled together system, good luck.
 
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Bill,
I thought I should at least put "belt" or "pulley" in there...so like "New import bench grinder vs vintage motor/belt-driven grinder combo?" or something similar?

What is that motor type you're talking about? The motors I saw were per attached photos...I know you have advised against them, but out of curiosity, are these the type you mention? Just for kicks I included photos of the grinders as well. Which, they are actually buffers, aren't they? What is the difference between buffers and grinders, anyway? 1) no tool rests, which would be ameliorated by the jig Mike mentioned above (I have my eye on the Wolverine Vari); 2) the guards; 3) longer axes so more flex if the wheels are placed at the ends; 4) anything else?
Thanks for your expertise!
Packard with Sears.jpg Craftsman with belt sander big.jpeg Sears with Packard.jpg Unknown with unknown.jpg
 
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I have the Rikon low speed grinder and love it!!! Buy it!!! Spend a few extra shekels and get the Wolverine Grinding Jig to go with it. Another good investment. It took a while to get it lined up with the base centered to the wheels but worth the time. I secured the grinder to a piece of plywood so I could place it on my TS near the lathe. Looking for room to set it up permanently so I don't have to keep shuffling it around.
I also have a regular grinder but don't want to take a chance on getting heavy-handed and have the high speed generating heat and ruining a good tool. That grinder is used for the lawn mower blades or any other sharpening.
 

Bill Boehme

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Bill,
I thought I should at least put "belt" or "pulley" in there...so like "New import bench grinder vs vintage motor/belt-driven grinder combo?" or something similar?

What is that motor type you're talking about? The motors I saw were per attached photos...I know you have advised against them, but out of curiosity, are these the type you mention? Just for kicks I included photos of the grinders as well. Which, they are actually buffers, aren't they? What is the difference between buffers and grinders, anyway? 1) no tool rests, which would be ameliorated by the jig Mike mentioned above (I have my eye on the Wolverine Vari); 2) the guards; 3) longer axes so more flex if the wheels are placed at the ends; 4) anything else?
Thanks for your expertise!
View attachment 23366 View attachment 23365 View attachment 23364 View attachment 23363

Short answer is to forget about those separate heads ... they're just junk. And those motors pictured are are precisely the wrong type. They have open frames that will allow grit to get inside.
 
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Short answer is to forget about those separate heads ... they're just junk. And those motors pictured are are precisely the wrong type. They have open frames that will allow grit to get inside.

Thanks Bill, saved me a trip across town! I will learn more about the AC induction capacitor start 4-pole TENV type motor, just to get educated.
 

Bill Boehme

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Thanks Bill, saved me a trip across town! I will learn more about the AC induction capacitor start 4-pole TENV type motor, just to get educated.

In other words, just buy a bench grinder and you're likely to have the right motor. The Rikon grinders are good. The Horrible Freight grinders aren't because they are 2-pole and under powered despite what the label might say. Four pole motors run at a speed of 1700 - 1800 RPM. They run smoother than two pole motors which run at 3500 - 3600 RPM. Bench grinder motors are totally enclosed to keep dust and grit out and don't require an external cooling fan. If you want to use CBN wheels, I recommend getting a ¾ HP grinder.
 
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The Rikon 1/2 hp motor will spin the aluminum wheels from Ken Rizza, but would struggle a bit with the steel D Way wheels. I have one of the 1 hp Rikon grinders and had to tweak/fine tune it a bit for my purposes, but it has plenty of power for either set of wheels. I tend to be hard on my tools and want heavy duty....

robo hippy
 

john lucas

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This is somewhere you really don't want to pinch your money too much. You will love and use a good grinder for you lifetime. A crappy one will constantly frustrate you. They Woodcraft grinders are well worth the money. Sure they aren't top of the line like Baldor Which would be my choice if money rolls our of your pocket. Ideally you want a good sharpening system to go along with it which is why we often suggest the Woodcraft grinders along with the Oneway sharpning system. It will cost several hundred dollars to get those 2 but the learning curve on sharpening will be greatly shortened and your enjoyment of the grinder and sharp tools will last a long time.
 
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Eileen, you have gotten some good advice about the Woodcraft grinder. I have the 1/2 hp one with D-Way CBN wheels mounted on it. Granted, it starts a little slow, but I am a hobbist so I don't mind. I use the Wolverine system and it works great. I have the vari-grind one and the vari-grind 2. A lot of people dislike the vari-grind2, but, it works good for me. I have the vari-grind 1 set upper my spindle gouges. I slide a short piece of pvc pipe over the vee-arm to keep my distance from the wheel constant. The same way works for my bowl gouges except that I use the vari-grind 2 for them. I have my grinder set up on a tall cabinet so that my grinder is almost at eye level. This make it easier for me to sharpen. The grinder is also close to my lathe and I can resharpen often. Put some magnets in a plastic bag and place the bag near your grinder discharge chute. This will catch a lot of the grinding dust.
Joe
 
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I am a hobbyist and I purchased the 1HP Rikon grinder. Was more money than I wanted to spend, but I went with the stock wheel for a while to save at first. I finally purchased 2 CBN wheels from woodturning wonders last month. You could go with stock wheels until you can afford CBN ones.
 
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All, wanted to thank you ALL for your great advice and support!!!!!!

So, based on your feedback (and also, I have to say, the selection of low-end 3/4 HP slow speed grinders is frustratingly small from what I can see), I am now considering swinging the other way. My usual tendency is to buy once for life - I had wanted to invest first in wheels, but maybe I'll switch the order of investment. So what if I were to go to a Baldor?

There is available a New In Box 7306 (7" 1/2 HP 1800RPM single phase) that was manufactured in 1995. Incredible, I know. Never been used. Guards still in package.
1) Is 1800RPM ok? 2) Is 1/2 HP ok? Robo hippy, esp, since I know that you are a CBN aficionado - would a Baldor 1/2 HP spin a 7" CBN adequately, or would I need a 3/4 HP?
3) Are there parts on a grinder that would go bad over that period of time (ie like rubber pieces on cars that would harden/crack?) People USE these things for decades so I wouldn't think so, but wanted to ask just in case.
4) At what price would that be a good value? It's listed at $300.

There is also a New in Box JET JWBG8 (8" 1/2HP 1725RPM single phase) listed for $225.
And of course there is the Rikon 80-808 mentioned above which is $217 on Amazon.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUING INPUT!!!!!
 

Bill Boehme

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Seven inch wheels are sort of an oddball size and might limit your choices for getting a CBN wheel. I would go for 8 inch low speed (1700 - 1800 RPM) and 3/4 or 1 HP if you plan to get CBN wheels. Baldor is the Cadillac of grinders, but the 1 HP Rikon is more than sufficient. I think that the 1/2 HP Rikon would be fine with aluminum CBN wheels from Woodturners Wonders. Things that wear out: start capacitor after many years (I've never had to replace one yet) and shaft bearings (maybe once in a lifetime). Other than the initial start-up load to accelerate those heavy CBN wheels the grinder motor is basically just loafing along so they will usually never need any maintenance.
 
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Eileen, I have 2 Baldor grinders, and the older one is 10 years old. I expect my birth certificate will expire before they do. I am 67, and my dad is 95 and still goes into work every day... I don't think Ken makes 7 inch wheels, but maybe. Not a high demand product. I do know that Dave at D Way has a couple of CBN grinding wheels for the Oregon Chainsaw sharpening set up. Guess I have to get one of them first....

robo hippy
 
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I have no economic interest, but happened to have recently looked into various CBN wheels. Ken at Woodturner Wonders does have a radius edge 7" wheel, presumably in several grit sizes.
 

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Seven inch wheels are sort of an oddball size and might limit your choices for getting a CBN wheel. I would go for 8 inch low speed (1700 - 1800 RPM) and 3/4 or 1 HP if you plan to get CBN wheels. Baldor is the Cadillac of grinders, but the 1 HP Rikon is more than sufficient. I think that the 1/2 HP Rikon would be fine with aluminum CBN wheels from Woodturners Wonders. Things that wear out: start capacitor after many years (I've never had to replace one yet) and shaft bearings (maybe once in a lifetime). Other than the initial start-up load to accelerate those heavy CBN wheels the grinder motor is basically just loafing along so they will usually never need any maintenance.

Eileen.....

I agree with Bill, that in the long run, you'll be much happier, and better served with a slow speed (@1800 +/-rpm) 8" grinder.

Prior to my retirement, I had experience with Baldor buffer motors, and to tell you the truth, I think they are a little overrated. Although the company I worked for originally bought Baldor motors, they eventually bought the Dayton line. Dayton is not quite as expensive, but just as good. I suspect, since other manufacturers have entered the market in the past couple decades, that other motor manufacturers would be in consideration these days.

I originally used a 6", 3450rpm grinder. It works, and like you, I originally started sharpening on a budget. If I could go back and change that, I would start with a better, more appropriate grinder.
6 inch grinder.jpg

I believe Bill Boehme and I have the exact same grinder. This older Delta is 8", 3/4hp, and about 1800rpm. It's a good one, but sadly, it went out of production 10-15 years ago. I wish I'd started out with this grinder. As you can see, the jigs and accessories have evolved quite a bit.......and, your grinder will evolve similarly, too! If at all possible, the grinder is not the place to cut corners......but, it's understood you have to do what you have to do, because very few of us have an unlimited budget to work with. :D

-----odie-----
IMG_3204 (2).JPG
 

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There is available a New In Box 7306 (7" 1/2 HP 1800RPM single phase) that was manufactured in 1995. Incredible, I know. Never been used. Guards still in package.

Eileen, ... I have a 7" - 1/2hp - 3600 rpm Wissota grinder (made in Minnesota, USA) that I purchased 27 years ago. More than four years ago I put on an 8" CBN (D-Way) with no problems. Of course, I had to remove the guard but the guards aren't really needed with a steel CBN wheel. Two years later I bought another steel CBN (WoodturnersWonders) for the other side. Still no problems...except that it takes about 4-5 seconds to come up to speed instead of the 1-3 seconds it used to take for the 7" matrix wheels. However, it does take a lot longer to come to a stop with those two steel "flywheels" on it! :D You will probably have to remove the wheel guards anyway because the CBN's are too wide for the guards on most grinders. I have seen some 1" wheels on the market somewhere, but I much prefer the wider 1-1/2" wheels.

A slow speed (1750-1800 rpm) grinder is probably your best bet. I'm thinking of getting a second (slow speed) grinder to swap out my CBN wheels, and then re-install my old 7" matrix wheels for sharpening some of my old carbon steel tools and for general shop grinding.
 

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I believe Bill Boehme and I have the exact same grinder. This older Delta is 8", 3/4hp, and about 1800rpm. It's a good one, but sadly, it went out of production 10-15 years ago. I wish I'd started out with this grinder......

Yes, I do and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It is big and heavy ... and too bad that Delta quit making them because it was one of the best grinders ever made. Also the wheel guards are wide enough to accommodate the 1½" CBN wheels and there are ports on the back side of the guards so that it can be connection to a shop vac.
 
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Well, again, gentlemen, thank you very much for the continuing food for thought. Slow speed it will be, most definitely...I'll just have to make my decision as to WHAT. I will post back with what I end up getting. Thanks again for steering me away from potential disaster with the belted grinders!
 
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Folks, I am back with my report on what I ended up buying. I scored a brand new but bare (no wheels, no guards) 1HP Rikon on ebay for $50 +$50 shipping. I just took it to my local club yesterday to check to see that it functioned correctly, and was told that it is in tip top shape (phew! I was worried that I might have gotten taken for a ride, you never know with ebay.)

As I've mentioned before, I now want to get CBN wheels. D-way has individual CBN wheels, Ken/Woodturners Wonders and Hurricane have pairs with differing grits. There are also features like radius edge /4-in-1 edge, 1.5" width and side walls. I also remember someone recommending one CBN and one friable. So what grits/features/types do you use and why?

Thanks as always!!! Eileen
 

Bill Boehme

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Folks, I am back with my report on what I ended up buying. I scored a brand new but bare (no wheels, no guards) 1HP Rikon on ebay for $50 +$50 shipping. I just took it to my local club yesterday to check to see that it functioned correctly, and was told that it is in tip top shape (phew! I was worried that I might have gotten taken for a ride, you never know with ebay.)

As I've mentioned before, I now want to get CBN wheels. D-way has individual CBN wheels, Ken/Woodturners Wonders and Hurricane have pairs with differing grits. There are also features like radius edge /4-in-1 edge, 1.5" width and side walls. I also remember someone recommending one CBN and one friable. So what grits/features/types do you use and why?

Thanks as always!!! Eileen

With no wheel guards you are committed to only using CBN wheels because it would be extremely hazardous to use a matrix wheel without a guard. Additionally, an unguarded matrix wheel would be throwing high velocity grit in all directions. I would guess that most people don't have guards on their CBN wheels because the standard guards are only wide enough to accommodate 1" wheels.

Choosing which wheel to get has no easy answer. There's probably no wrong choice ... just a bunch of right choices. If you had a Tormek I could give you my recommendation, but I'm still using matrix wheels on my dry grinder.
 

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You probably could or you might be able to make on out of wood. Wouldn't even be too hard to make one out of sheet metal. I wonder why the other owner tossed the guards. CBN wheels are so nice the only reason I would not use them is if I had some carbon steel tools to sharpen. Matrix wheels wear so you need to adjust the V arm of your jig if you use a jig, to allow for the shrinking wheel. They also have to be trued frequently which also shrinks the wheel. CBN wheels have neither of those problems.
 

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Most likely you would do fine with Two CBNs maybe - 80 and 180.

CBNs are slow at reshaping a tool. But this is usually something I do only once with a new tool.
So if it takes 20 minutes instead of 10 it is not a big deal.

Today most bowl gouges are sold with a side ground profile so the required reshaping is much much less than it was when all gouges were sold with a square cut front end and a lot of reshaping was needed.
 

john lucas

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Al I wouldn't say CBN wheels are slow grinding, only CBN with fine grit. I find my 180 grit CBN will take away metal faster than my 120 Aluminum oxide wheel. Now granted neither one is good for reshaping although I did that to new turners gouge the other day since we only had the CBN on the club grinder. Ideally I would have an 80 or 60 CBN for reshaping. What I use at home is a very course gray wheel that I've had for 20 years. It hogs metal so I can get pretty close to the final shape with that and then go to the 180 CBN and fine tune it.
 
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John, are you the John Lucas with a Youtube channel to whom Reed refers in his article? "radius edge version...scratched my head to wonder why this was done...David Ellsworth wanted...for sharpening hollowing tips...I had seen a John Lucas You Tube clip about doing it this way with a more standard wheel, and after thinking about it, it made more sense to me."

If so, to which video is Reed referring? What are hollow tips used for?

For that matter, what kinds of tools are made of soft carbon steel that I would want a friable wheel for? Am I losing out on a lot of functionality by purchasing 2 CBN wheels? [BTW, no idea where the guards/stones went...but the original owner did not use the machine. It was sold as "brand new".]
 

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eBay brand new doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as buying something in a real store. :D It's more like the item sort of looks brand new if you don't count some obvious things that tell you otherwise.

Friable aluminum oxide wheels (as well as ceramic matrix wheels) are for sharpening hard high speed steel tools. Friable wheels cut cleanly and faster than silicon carbide wheels. Silicon carbide grit gets dull and then just slowly abrades and heats the steel rather than cutting it.

Hollowing tips are made from high speed steel and not soft carbon steel. They are used to hollow out wood vases and other hollow forms that don't permit the use of other tools because they are either deep or have small openings or both.

Many turners use two CBN wheels and there is no loss of capability. The big advantage of CBN is smooth vibration free sharpening. If you have a matrix wheel on one side, you might lose some of that advantage unless you carefully balance and true up the matrix wheel.

As far as as I know there is only one John Lucas. They broke the mold after that. :D He's a true Renascence man who is a master of many things.
 
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eBay brand new doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as buying something in a real store. :D It's more like the item sort of looks brand new if you don't count some obvious things that tell you otherwise.
Absolutely true, which is why I didn't even post about my grinder until I got a chance to take it to my local woodturner's meeting and have several folks look at it. They all said it was clearly brand new. Which hugely put my mind at ease....I was definitely poised andready to return it if they had reservations about it!

Hollowing tips...are used to hollow out wood vases and other hollow forms that don't permit the use of other tools because they are either deep or have small openings or both."
I see. Are there other ways to sharpen hollowing tips other than using a radius edge? I guess that's what John's video is about?

Many turners use two CBN wheels and there is no loss of capability. The big advantage of CBN is smooth vibration free sharpening. If you have a matrix wheel on one side, you might lose some of that advantage unless you carefully balance and true up the matrix wheel.
That is wonderful to hear! I was hoping to go CBN because 1) I didn't want to have to replace down the road and 2) I didn't want to have to dress. This is great news that double CBN is just fine.

As far as as I know there is only one John Lucas. They broke the mold after that. :D He's a true Renascence man who is a master of many things.
Well I am humbled that he took time to reply to several of my posts then!!!!

What about sidewall? Reed mentioned something about "carvers or those who prefer no bevel on skew chisels, some hollowing bits". Is a sidewall highly preferable (Ken's Mega Square 1" or Optrigrind's 5/8")?

Finally, I assume an 80/180 2 pack would be a good choice?

Thanks for your continuing guidance, Bill!
Eileen
 

Bill Boehme

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.... Are there other ways to sharpen hollowing tips other than using a radius edge? I guess that's what John's video is about?...

Yes, it's just a convenience that many turners prefer because it means less swinging the handle of the hollowing tool around. If you have a hollowing tool with a long handle then you would need to do a bit of dancing around to stay out of the way as the handle is being swung around to sharpen the edge. In many types of hollowing tools the tool shank can be removed from the handle to make the sharpening situation less cumbersome. I don't do a lot of hollowforms so the rounded edge isn't what I want.

.... What about sidewall? Reed mentioned something about "carvers or those who prefer no bevel on skew chisels, some hollowing bits". Is a sidewall highly preferable (Ken's Mega Square 1" or Optrigrind's 5/8")?....

I don't understand what it means to not have a bevel and I don't know what the term sidewall means. Maybe if I saw it in context I might understand.

.... Finally, I assume an 80/180 2 pack would be a good choice?....

That seems to be the most popular combination although some turners are going for a finer grit than 180.
 

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What about sidewall? Reed mentioned something about "carvers or those who prefer no bevel on skew chisels, some hollowing bits". Is a sidewall highly preferable (Ken's Mega Square 1" or Optrigrind's 5/8")?
The flat sidewall will make a flat bevel.
The round wheel wants to make a concave bevel. There are ways make a near flat bevel on a round wheel.
The Michelson grind is a convex vevel,and his jig makes the convex bevel on a round wheel.
Flat and convex bevels are not used by most Woodturners.
The Michelson grind is a great grind.
 

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Are there other ways to sharpen hollowing tips other than using a radius edge? I guess that's what John's video is about?

Yes. However I like sharpening on the radius. edge. IMHO the radius makes it really easy.

Lots of alternatives.
John Jordan sells a little jig to sharpen his hollowing tips with.

You can also just roll the bevel on a wheel free hand our using a platform

Carbide hollowing tips are available. They are not sharpened just replaced.
They are rotated a couple of times to use a fresh edge that has not been used.
 
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john lucas

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Well there are a lot of John Lucas's out there. So many in fact that it's always a pain to try and sign in to a new site because most of the time someone else has used my name. As far as I know I'm the only woodturner named John Lucas. Glen Lucas of course is the other lucas woodturner. Sound like everyone else has answered your questions.
 
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Woodcraft has a grinder on sale right now for $99. That's a good buy and a good grinder.
I started shying away from Woodcraft power tools when I found out that they don't accept returns of power tools.

If you are referring to a Ricon grinder there are some reviews that say that shafts are bent. I looked at this grinder and once I found out that I could not return it if there was a problem I went elsewhere.
 
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