2436 spindle noise question (clattering)

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Bill Luce, May 6, 2011.

  1. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    I have an older 2436 that I have been very happy with for a number of years (12) of pretty much daily use (7 days a week). Overall I have loved it.

    Don't want to get into it too much, but I have a somewhat newer 2436 (bought new as a backup lathe) that I have tried a couple new spindles in (different reasons) that have a clatter sound at rpms of say 1600 rpm and up. Both new spindles sound about the same. Really bothers me and my older 2436 (and another older 2436 I have listened to recently with this in mind) doesn't have any of the clatter. So I don't even think about the lathe while I turn.

    Here's my question: Has anyone notices a clattering rattle sort of sound in their new 2436 at say 2000 rpms and up that went away with time? I would not expect this, but I don't want to put the lathe into storage if it might get quieter, as it has never yet turned wood.

    Please don't turn this into a this lathe vs that lathe debate --I am just kind of desparate for any relevant info as I am out of options. Feel free to email or call me to spare forum bandwidth.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  2. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    Gee whiz Bill, Throw some wood on the sucker and give it a go. If it does not go away Oneway will make it right for you. If not raise a bit of cain. My 2436 has now about 12 years and I am starting to hear bearing noise and a bit of vibration. So its getting close to time to get new bearings. But new ones are either good or bad. But probably are going to run hot till broke in. If they torqed the bearing load to tight (which I doubt) it could make plenty of noise. Make some chips my friend. Nothing to lose and everything to gain.
     
  3. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    Oneway says they can't help me further. I PM'd more gory details to spare the forum.
     
  4. Owen Lowe

    Owen Lowe

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    Bill,

    Just a few thoughts:

    Have you checked for any looseness in the upper and lower pulleys? Does the noise still exist if there is little tension on the belt - just the weight of the motor? Have you tried running the motor through the speed range with no belt to ensure it is not a motor noise that is fooling the ear as being in the spindle? Are you sure there is nothing rattling inside the spindle's bore?
     
  5. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    Oh yeah. I've got many hours of trying things over 5 months. Tried all the usual things including trying every combination of 3 spindles and three heastocks and two lathe bodies. For example, something I tried first swapping the complete headstocks between lathes. The old headstock sounded fine on the newer lathe (just like on the older lathe) and the newer headstock sounded exactly the same on the older lathe (clattery at high rpm). In other words each headstock/spindle sounded the same regardless of which body (motor, etc) it was on. Because naturally I first suspected something rattling other than the spindle itself.

    I realize that when most folks say they have a clattery spindle I suspect it is simply the tensioning rod on the motor rattling, but I assure you I am way past that.

    In fact at one point I bought a complete new headstock with spindle from Oneway just to put the issue behind me. The inboard threads had a serious problem, so I eventually got another spindle set which was the same both in terms of sound and threads (the wonky thread which prevented chucks from seating I was able to fix myself).

    Basically the clatter really only picks up strong at around maybe 1800 rpm on the top pulley range and gets more insistet with higher rpms.. Tension on belt doesn't matter. Motor on full speed without belt sounds fine.

    I am certainly open to any other suggestions for things to try.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  6. Clifton C

    Clifton C

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    2436 noise

    Bill,
    With every thing you’ve tried over the last five months I can’t imagine I could come up with something new. Your noise seems to follow the head stock. Have you tried a mechanics stethoscope? I bought one years ago, it sure is easier to use then the old screwdriver in the ear trick. (Thumb on end of handle, thumb pressed against ear, screwdriver blade touched against suspected noisemaker) Don’t know what your noise is but this might help track it down…
    Ps. Safety alert, a stethoscope also gets you farther away from spinning stuff.
    Clifton
     
  7. Dale Miner

    Dale Miner

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    You've probably already tried, but if not, release the belt tension completely and turn the spindle by hand trying to feel if there are any little bumps or catches or points of resistance, or even what feels like a smooth excess resistance to turning. Little bumps of resistance could mean either debris in the bearings, or brinnelled bearing races. Excess smooth resistance could be caused by too much preload on the bearings. I would expect that the new bearings and seals of the newer lathe would require more effort to turn than the older machine, but not an arm tiring amount.

    Another you've probably already checked, are the motor and headstock pulleys correctly aligned? Misalignent of the pulleys can cause strange noises as the belt trys to walk. Pulley setscrews tight? Is the rpm range that the noise occurs in an area of range overlap? If so, does the noise occur at the same rpm in both ranges?

    Hearing the noise would be a big help in coming up with ideas.

    Not knowing the details of the assembly, and assuming that the headstock uses a pair of tapered roller bearings or angular contact ball bearings;

    With a medium weight wooden mattet, and the lathe running at the speed that causes the noise, give the end of the spindle a light to medium axial tap on first one end and then the other. Do not bash it to the point of causing bearing damage, and do not tap it with the spindle not turning. It could be that the bearing races have a bit of misalingment in the housing, and tapping things will help seat them and quiet the noise.

    Another thought, put a block of wood between the spindle and tailstock with only sufficient pressure to retain the wood, and bring the rpm's up to the point that the noise occurs. Let the lathe run for an extended period of time (several hours) in this condition. The extended running will warm the spindle bearings and spindle up more so than the housing, causing a lengthwise expansion and possibly correcting any race misalignment issues during the expansion and subsequent cooling contraction.

    If the tapping or heating and cooling does make a slight correction of the bearing seating and quiet things down, it may be neccessary to check and/or adjust the preload on the bearings.

    Later,
    Dale M
     
  8. Gynia

    Gynia

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    Clattering - percolating?

    When my 2436 was new it made a slight "percolating" sound when turning at higher speeds. The sound was more of a curiosity than a concern. That "percolating" sound has diminished over the years (8yr). Still the sound is more of a curiosity than a concern.

    The noise appears to bother you a LOT. Changing headstocks such is a big deal which you is likely to impact your chance of trusting and enjoying the lathe.

    I know if I were to have gone through 5 months of diagnoses without any "positive" result I would be very frustrated.
     
  9. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    Dale,

    All good suggestions, and it sounds like you are a lot more knowledgeable than me with machinery. I am handier with wood than bearings and such.

    There are two new spindles in question, and both sound about the same altlhough they are from the same batch (both have wonky threads, for example). They turn very smooth to the hand, although a touch more resistance to turning due to them being new (old ones have may thousands of hours on them). And both bearings in each run slightly warm at speed which seems like a good sign.

    I haven't run it for long periods with a block between centers, but I did do that a bit and the sound itself was similar the same either way although very slightly worse with pressure from the tailstock. I'll try it for longer. I have run the latest spindle (the one I got the threads doctored up to run chucks true) off and on at various speeds and reverse for probably 6 or 8 hours total and the sound is not improving (actually it seems to be getting louder but I can't be sure).

    In terms of dealing with actual preload, I am not equiped to do that. The way the 2436 bearings come the preload is determined by spacers in the inboard headstock cap which comes already bolted to the spindle on that end. The outboard bearings are designed to float back and forth in the outboard carrier with heat expansion. For whatever reason, when I loosed the outboard and endboard headstock cap bolts while the lathe is running, the sound is slightly better. Might just be because the sound is not as well transmitted to the headstock for amplification, I don't know.

    In terms of the pulley alignment, that was something I tried to figure out from the start. Can't really see clearly if they are aligned perfectly, but they look close. I did notice that on the last two spindles, the pulleys are in slightly different positions relative to the bearings as compared to eachother. About 3/8 inch.

    In terms of overlapping pulley ranges, that is something I tried way back when and I just went out and tried it again to make sure. The sound is the similar at say 1800 rpm either the middle or high pulley. I have compared sounds so many times now that small differences get harder to be definite about.

    I probably should get a stethoscope and try to track it down more, but I've already spent about 20 hours total messing with the problem over the 5 months (and many more hours thinking about it whether I wanted to or not) and I don't have enough time to fool with it much more. One more thing I will try later today is to switch complete headstocks again between lathes and listen really closely. I don't expect that to be different than before, but maybe I could learn something about the sound.

    I am told that Oneway went to double spindle bearings a while back and I can't help but wonder if that changed the sound. Doesn't seem like it should. But even with a new headstock and spindle complete, it doesn't sound anything like my older ones at higher rpms.

    I am probably going to record it again this weekend with a camera video, but it's hard to hear much on small computer speakers. I did record the first spindle, which I believe was the loudest of the three spindles but Kevin said he couldn't tell the difference between lathes so I am not sure the vid is helpful.

    If you are curious, that recording trying to show Kevin a difference between the sounds of the old and new lathes (and not particularly well I guess) can be seen the link below. Any feedback is welcome. The difference between the two different sounds is much more noticeable in person in part because of the way small cameras tend to automatically adjust down louder volumes, as vistors to my studio can attest. They have agreed the second lathe sounded awful. Someone pointed out I am trying to talk much louder at the second lathe, and I am going to try it again with a small radio on the lathe that will produce a steady sound. On the first lathe the radio gets harder to hear of course, but with the second lathe the radio gets competely drowned out.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/1/0Z-8npb9wbM

    I generally turn with earplugs, and with my oldest lathe basically I just hear the wood being cut and background whirring. With the second lathe even with the new spindle, I am very aware of the noise from the spindle and can't really get into my happy place.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2011
  10. Dale Miner

    Dale Miner

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    Bill,

    It is difficult to gather a enough info from the recording to make a confident guess. It was easy to hear the difference in the volume of the noise and to hear that it was more metallic in nature. I did not hear a sound that I would attribute to either a loose pulley or a belt alignment issue. I did not hear a sound that immediatly sounded like a brinnelled bearing.

    From your description of the headstock assmebly, there are three bearings. Two tapered roller or angular contact at the inboard end contained within the bearing cap as a cartridge. The preload between these two is set at the factory with some type of spacer arrangement. The third bearing then, is at the outboard end, with the outer race free to float in the bearing cap bore. This bearing is likely a typical single row ball bearing.

    A stethoscope may be helpfull in determining the end of the headstock the noise is coming from, and in comparison with the other lathe, the difference in the noise from each end.

    While it is possible that having the bearing cap bolts loose reduced the sound level by less transmission to the headstock, it is also possible that there is a location issue with the bearing on the shaft at the outboard end. If the bearing's position on the spindle has the outer race at the extent of the provision for 'float', then there will be an unwanted thrust against the bearing. A typical single row ball bearing can handle some thrust, but it is not designed for heavy thrust loads, and in the design as I understand it, there should not be any thrust on the bearing in the outboard end.

    The similarities in sound between the original and the replacement headstock assemblies does point to a design change being the cause of the difference between the older machine and the newer one. Having said that though, the noise does not sound like a healthy machine.

    My gues at this point is that there is either a preload issue between the pair of bearings at the inboard end, or more likely, a position issue with the bearing at the outboard end.

    Ohio is a bit far for a drive over to take a look.

    One check that you might try; With a dial indicator attached to the top of the headstock housing, and the point of the indicator on the spindle, with a reasonable length extension of some sort in the spindle taper, see if any play can be noted on the indicator when the spindle is lifted up and down. I would expect virtually no indicated play. A great deal would mean that there is no preload of the bearings.
     
  11. wa5fdf

    wa5fdf

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    vibration

    Almost every lathe has a resonance point. My 2436 starts to vibrate at 1200 rpm on the high speed pully and quits shorltly above that. Every lathe I know of have a built in resonance some where, some are more distinct than others.

    Vernon
     
  12. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    Bill, I sent you a private reply but everything I said has been said here by others. But once again I would suggest you have nothing to lose to try to mess with the bearing situation yourself. and some that has been said here is beyond me and great advise. Good luck.
     
  13. ray hampton

    ray hampton

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    can the motor plate with the knob be the cause of the noise ?
     
  14. Steve Worcester

    Steve Worcester Admin Emeritus

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    If the spindle cartridge is out of the headstock, if you slowly turn the bearing, do you feel any binding might indicate some galling of the race or bearing?
     
  15. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    A turner friend (who has had a older 2436 a long time himself) stopped by I haven't seen in a while and asked to hear the new lathe. I ran them both for him and he was amazed at the sound of the new one at higher rpms. "Unbelievable, no way anyone would want to turn on that " he told me. He figured maybe since I am a picky guy that I was just being too picky because you can't really tell how loud it is from the camera vid..

    So I tried another vid with my 5d2 (first vid with it) in the hopes that the camera would not automatically decrease high volumes like the previous camera (s95). Unfortunately my 5d2 does the same thing, it wants all sound to be in a certain db range so it gets much less sensitive to louder volumes.

    But here is that vid. Notice even though my face is right next to the camera mic (about 10 times as close as the headstock) at higher rpms my voice is drownd out. And you can't tell hear it wel on the vid, but I am continuing to talk during both higher rpms shown. Even though my mouth is inches from the microphone, it is mostly drowned out which shows how far down the camera adjusted in volume level. The radio was just an attempt to show how sounds get drowned out pretty quickly. I am not expecting to hear the radio at full rpm.

    So not sure it this helps show how I am not exagerating the spindle noise at higher rpms (as compared to my other 2436 for example) but here is the link. If anyone heard this lathe themselves, I believe they would then understand why I am so unhappy and consider it unusable above 1600 rpm. In person it gets simply defeaning above 2k. No way I would be able to even sell the lathe, even though unused. To quote a friend from a couple weeks ago who is following the saga "you are so scr*wed."

    http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/0/8xKUA8JTuCg
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2011
  16. Stuart Johnson

    Stuart Johnson

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    Bill, Try to find a Db meter and tape the results. Showing both the old and the new lathe readings might get One Ways attention.
     
  17. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Canon EOS 5DII is one nice camera. It appears, however, that you may not have the latest firmware update. There was such an uproar by professional videographers over the lack of manual gain control that Canon released a firmware update that enables one to choose between manual and auto rather than only AGC which is what all other DSLR cameras with HD video had. Anyway, you might check to see if your firmware is the latest version. If it is the latest version, there should be a menu item in the video settings that allows manual gain control via the top thumbwheel.

    There was some complaining by 7D shooters to have the same feature, but since 7D users are generally not motion picture industry pros, that feature is unlikely to ever be implemented as a firmware update in the 7D.
     
  18. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Can you isolate the noise to a particular part of the drive train? For example --

    • Motor running without belt
    • Motor running with belt in all pulleys
    • Motor speed where noise is worst
    • Spindle speed where noise is worst
    If the noise is always the worst at 1800 RPM spindle speed regardless of which pulleys the belt is on, then it sounds like the problem is downstream of the motor in the drive train -- meaning something like the belt is defective, the grooves on the spindle pulley are not properly machined, warped spindle, warped pulley, bad bearings, improper preload on the bearings, wrong type of grease, too much grease, etc.

    If the noise is the worst at a particular motor speed (which means different spindle speeds for different pulley ranges), then the problem would necessarily be the motor or electronic variable speed control. The motor could have a bent shaft, bad bearings, problem with the blower on the back of the motor such as bent blades or not dynamically balanced, faulty windings, etc. Is thee enough similarity between the old and new models that you could swap motors and electronic drives?

    If the electronic drive on the new machine is different from the old one (and it almost certain to be different), it might be a cheapie. In many instances it is the electronic speed control that is responsible for intolerable noise from drive systems. One big factor is the PWM frequency that the system uses to create the synthesized three phase power to the motor. Top end controllers use a higher frequency in the range of 5 kHz to 8kHz. El cheapo controllers may run closer to 1 kHz to 3 kHz (right where our hearing is the most sensitive). The lower frequencies don't get completely filtered out by the inertia of the motor and can create some high frequency resonances in the motor and even further down the drive train.

    One other thing -- if the motor isn't specifically rated for inverter duty, it is likely to gradually begin to fail electrically at internal points where the windings make sharp bends. Wire-to-wire arcing can occur at those points if the motor is not rated for inverter duty and gradually the efficiency of the motor will decrease and run hotter and hotter as the failure progresses. The motor will also begin making incresing amounts of noise as the problem progresses.
     
  19. John Fabre

    John Fabre

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    Wow, how old is your 2436? The noise sounds like a defective headstock, Oneway will make it right.
     
  20. Dale Miner

    Dale Miner

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    Hi Bill,

    In the second Youtube, I can hear some nasty stuff when the spindle is at low rpm's. I can hear it as it starts, and again as it stops. I do wish I could drive over and look and listen.

    I'm going to send you a PM.

    Later,
    Dale M
     

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