2436 spindle noise question (clattering)

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Bill Luce, May 6, 2011.

  1. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    Yes, I agree nasty sounds. I have lived on a lathe for the last dozen years and I know what they should sound like. And at rpm it is much louder than it sounds on the video. Just not sure what to do about it at this point.

    And I feel now that after maybe 20 hours of running, it sounds worse.

    Very confusing, as that is a different headstock than the first headstock. They sold me that under the agreement they listen to it first. But unfortunately that and the next spindle had thread issues, too.

    Buried earlier in the thread, when I switch headstocks, the weird sounds follow the headstocks. My old headstock on the newer lathe sound absolutely fine, so to me that means it has nothing to do with the motor in terms of noise. At least that is the way I read it. And the motor sound fine in the lower range at full motor rpm.

    And the noisy headstock/spindles sound exactly as awful on the older lathe.

    I do wish you could hear it in person, as I think you would feel my pain more than just a little youtube vid. And why I don't want to use that lathe for my work.
     
  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I watched a couple of your videos and don't understand your rationale for having a loud radio going while trying to record the sound that the lathe is making. As an engineer who has done many investigations of system performance problems, I would recommend that the way to troubleshoot a problem is to remove as many variables as possible to simplify the troubleshooting process. While loudness level may be the particular annoyance that bother you the most, as far as conducting an investigation is concerned, it is mostly irrelevant at this point. Of far greater importance would be the subtle details of the sound -- in other words the sound that was being drowned out by the blaring radio.

    Despite the background noise and difficulty in hearing the more subtle characteristics of the lathe sounds, I think that there was something like a high pitched growling whine at the high speed which would be indicative of PWM controller induced noise. If that is the case, the controller might not have been properly programmed. It is possible that your controller might allow you to set a higher PWM frequency. It is also possible that the motor has some internal arcing induced shorts that can produce rough torque ripple. All of this is just a WAG since the overall audio quality is crap. I would suggest plugging a decent close range dynamic mike into the camera rather than using the built-in mike. The camera's built-in mike is a high sensitivity type that will pick up room acoustics as well as the ambient background noise.

    From what I heard, I agree that the sound is not quite "right".
     
  3. Alan Trout

    Alan Trout

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    Bill,

    I come from a machine-tool background and to me it sounds like a bearing issue. Now the cause of the bearing issue needs to be isolated whether it is the spindle cartridge or a headstock machining issue, alignment issues could be putting less than even side load on the bearings etc. Or possibly eliminate both as the cause.

    If I owned the lathes I would pull the old spindle cartridge out of your older 2436 and install that in the newer 2436 headstock and put the newer spindle cartridge in the older headstock. If there is no noise in the newer lathe with the old spindle cartridge then it is more than likely in the spindle cartridge. Or if the noise goes to the older machine with the new spindle cartridge then that should pretty much isolate the problem. Now if the new machine still makes the noise with the older spindle cartridge and the older machine is fine with the newer spindle cartridge than I feel that points to machining on the headstock.

    This is a lot of work and may not isolate the problem but if nothing else this could eliminate the spindle cartridge, headstock, or both.

    Document this with your camera as you go so yo can submit this to Oneway to see if you can get satisfaction. I generally go pretty easy on manufactures as I understand there are people that are either overly picky or can screw up and anvil but I feel that you complaint from what I herd is valid no matter what you spent.

    Good Luck


    Alan
     
  4. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    Alan, Thanks for look at the vid and giving some feedback.

    I have not switched the spindle in that vid between machines, but I did switch the one before. Sound followed spindle, although I did not run them long becaue with all this grief with spindles I was scared of messing up my working lathe which I am absolutely reliant on daily for my work. It has taken a while, but to be honest I have lost my confidence in OW. The only reason I have survived this saga with OW is that I have another lathe.

    So my plan when I can find more time and the right headspace (this has been going on so long and OW so unconcerned that it has gotten to where dealing with it takes it's toll on me) to:

    Upgrade the firmware on my camera to see if I can document the noises more accurately as I go.

    Once again switch these complete headstocks between machines and document the sound follows the headstocks.

    And like you suggest, switch this spindle and my working spindle and document. One big reason that this switch is not a "pure" test is that the inboard headstock bearing cap which is part of the headstock in a sense come pre bolted to the spindle. So I am switching part headstock along with the spindle. Beyond my pay grade to switch just spindles at this point. And this adds to the "risk" of getting any new spindle is that it relies on the spindle, 4 bearing, precision spacers, inboard encap and the assembly process itself to be all problem free.

    My confusion in all this is: Both the previous spindle (that I bought with the new headstock) and the current spindle (replacement due to defective threading) sound about the same in either headstock Both sound much louder with terrible (to me) bearing noise while my old 2436 is serene.

    And at $430 a pop just for the spindle cartridge with $100 shipping each way I am leary to order another one given the pattern, as I suspect the newer style bearings themselves.


    If you could hear the lathe in person you would see why my dander gets up now when they say it's normal and there is nothing they can do for me.....The saga is eating me up a bit, and I am very close to giving up and scrapping the lathe unused. Unless they get engaged, I am left holding and have to move on whether I like it or not. I realize it's pretty unclassy for a professional turner to be whining on a forum, but with the price of buying another lathe being what it is I decided to raised the flag for any help or suggestions from forum members like yourself and Dale more knowledgeable on the subject.

    I regularly hear they are going through tough times these days with qc, but with the advent of real competition I would have expected them to want to make it right esp for longtime 2436 advocates (which I have been). Sure problems can happen manufacturing any machine, but users need to have confidence that in the end they will be okay.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  5. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    Bill, its not a big job to take a spindle out. Sounds like you have done that. Unless Oneway has modified from the older to the newer. I like the idea of trying your older spindle in the new headstock. And Kevin is full of it if he thinks two spindles could not be bad from the same batch. You should not have had to shell out one dime. You should be given great service and you are not. Sorry its taking a toll on you. It would me also. I dont think you are whining. I think in desperation you are reaching out to others for help. And you are getting good advise. Oneway needs to follow through to make you happy though.
     
  6. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I think that if you got a Robust, you would chunk rocks at your Oneway.

    I was just wondering about the bearings. I believe that they use either angle ball or angle roller bearings, but don't know if they are the type that would have an external race pressed into the headstock. If so, it might be possible that the race is cocked a bit. If they are sealed bearings (which is more likely) then it is still possible that the recess has been machined slightly off axis. I think that Alan's suggestions are exactly the right steps to try to isolate the source of the noise.

    Since you have clarified that the noise is more closely tied to spindle speed than to motor speed, that effectively rules out a problem with the motor and electronic drive.
     
  7. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    I should be doing real turning, but I lost some sleep thinking about what a pickle I am in.

    So I am wasting more time this morning messing with the lathe. I upgraded my camera's firmware to allow manual volume levels and took a quick try at seeing if that way it showed how abnoxious the lathe gets at higher speeds any better than the previous vids. I am not sure if it is any clearer, as I have heard the lathe so much now it is engrained into my brain (and I don't mean that in a good way.)

    With the lens the camera is a bit farther from the lathe than it might look, and I turned down the recording volume quite a bit to try to not distort the louder volumes.

    So I kept my mouth close to the camera mic and tried to speak loudly.

    This test was done stone cold, when the lathe warms up it is noticeably louder and more rattly yet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IG4bwa_JuM

    Well back to work now (thank god for my other lathe). Probably if I had a boss I'd be fired for spending so much time with the new lathe over the last 5 months with nothing to show for it ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  8. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    After lunch I switched headstocks between my 2436 bodies. New headstock on old lathe and vice versa.

    Recorded with camera with manual volume gain. To me each headstock sounds identical on each lathe. New headstock/spindle rattlywith lots of mechanical noise. Old headstock/spindle at this point soothing by comparison. High normal bearing sounds, belt noise but no rattle or weird sounds at any speed. My hope is that this rules out the motor, controller, lower pulley, belt, etc from the equation.

    To me the difference in sound in person is huge.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYwxxqkoFyg

    Here's two short excerpts from that vid back to back. Without the starting and stopping I feel there is less info here, but I thought I'd try this to see if it helped show the difference.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/u/0/5aWv_rPkfpY


    Here's my question to you 2436 owners, which does your lathe sound more similar to at the 2000-2500 rpm range?

    In other words, do all the new ones sound like my newer one or did I have a run of really bad luck with components?

    Or do the two lathes sound the same to you? I'd really like to know. I'd also love to hear a recording of another newer 2436 at higher rpm. Feel free to PM or email me with questions or info if you would rather.

    Also, I suggest if you are ever going to remove your 2436 headstock (which is very easy) , you would do well to remove the spindle lock (only two screws). Otherwise you are likely to put a little bit of pressure on the protrudig spindle lock lever as you lift the headstock up and out, and it is easy to bend the little tab that keeps it in/out. DAMHIK.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  9. Alan Trout

    Alan Trout

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    Bill,

    There is definitely a noticeable difference between the two. I still think I would switch the spindle cartridges around so you can try to isolate the issue.

    Good Luck

    Alan

    PS if you get tired enough to push it outside please let me know. I have relatives in Washington state so I am sure I could make the round trip to pick it up.:D I will make it work.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  10. Owen Lowe

    Owen Lowe

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    One final question: does the rattling sound change at all between forward to reverse direction?

    I think if it were mine, I'd arrange a complete headstock replacement by Oneway. They should exchange it with little cost but shipping.

    Owen
     
  11. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I was thinking about the possibility of changing one thing at a time, but it would require a lot of disassembly and reassembly time. For example, first put the belt from the good lathe onto the bad one. Next would come the spindle pulley, then one bearing, then another, etc. Finally, you would wind up with all of the old parts in the new casting. I would expect that somewhere along the line the sound would change.
     
  12. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I understand. Maybe it is just time to buy some earplugs. Sometimes annoyances can get the best of us. It did for me when spent a lot of time obsessing over a different type of noise. My new Canon 7D is a wonderful camera, but I thought that there was too much image noise even at moderate ISO gains since I had been accustomed to seeing images that looked much "cleaner". Gradually, I recognized that some of what I thought to be "noise" had more to do with my comfort zone and accepting the limitations of my older camera as being goodness. On one hand, the 7D forced me to become a more disciplined photographer and on the other, I decided that the remainder of the noise gave the images a somewhat film-like quality.
     
  13. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    For me it's a no brainer because except doing demos I don't have to turn on a unpleasant lathe. Life is too short for that. Actually I do wear earplugs when I turn because I like to "get after it" like my friend Dave Schweitzer would say. Old oneway is a pleasant whir in the background with only cutting noise coming through while I work. New version rattly and distracting.

    Different subject: When I switched the headstocks back to their proper lathes so I could resume working I weighed them since the older one felt noticeably heavier.

    I was right, the old one weighs about 10 percent more and appears to be a thicker casting. 75.5 lbs for the old headstock complete except for pulley cap while 69.5 lbs for the brand new one without pulley cap. Since the spindle cartridges weigh about 30lbs themselves, that makes the 6 lb difference in just the middle casting a bigger percentage yet.

    Would be interesting to know if they use less metal anywhere else on the newer lathe bodies. Not saying it makes any difference, just curious about what has changed in the newer ones other than mostly minor things like double spindle bearings and different style seals, a few headstock cover styles, the index pin got longer, change in controls and controller (actually the controllers they have used are not all equal), better paint, graphic on headstock, headstock adjusting blocks between ways, option of ss ways more index points.

    One bummer for me in having the multiple replacement components hard to come by and still noisy is that, except for the OW banjo which I don't love but easily replaceable, I have been quite happy with my original 2436 and have until now never felt the need or desire for a different lathe. But since I am full time, I require equipment that I can be confident that I can resolve any issues satisfactorily in a reasonable time frame and with a fairly low dose of grief.

    Luckily for turners there are lots of good choices in a wide range these days.


    Winding it all down:

    I posted links to a number of vid links in this thread, but I think the only one that shows both the old headstock and one of the newer headstocks/spindles is:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/1/QYwxxqkoFyg

    I am mostly repeating myself, so it's a good time for me give it a rest. If you have any specific questions or advice, email me or catch me in St. Paul. If you can't find me, check the Robust, Magma and Vicmarc booths. ;) I'll be the guy with the unruly hair and a grin like a pig in a puddle.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2011
  14. Dale Bright

    Dale Bright

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    Bill,

    I have been following this thread because I thought my 2436 was a bit noisy at 2000 rpms but it is nothing like yours. I think you should post all of this over on the Oneway forum. I think the techs at Oneway are on there quite a bit. It sure seems to be a bearing/spindle issue to me.


    Good Luck,

    Dale
     
  15. rjones

    rjones

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    I have been following this a little. I can not hear the noise we do not have speaker connected to our computers. ( Is there any way to find out if One Way has changed the thickness of the spindle or the metal make up, A thinner spindle ( larger ID ) noise could transfer, or some type of other change that just happened on your spindle.
    Bearing brand change
    Miss aline in the head stock casting
    Casting bore ID too big too small
    A burr on the spindle causing wind noise (Like I sand I can not hear the noise)
    Any holes in the spindle that are not in the no noise one
    Does it make the noise with the hand wheel on or off
    Is all of the bolted togeather parts tight and aligned

    Good luck this type of thing can make you go crazy
     
  16. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    Bill, I am not a bearing expert. But the sound is like bearings that are to tight. One of my old lathes has a double tapered in front that I can control the bearing pressure. To tight they sound like this and build up a lot of heat. I mean almost sizzle to the touch.Way to nasty sounding for my tastes. So I think you should try to loosen up the pressure on those bearings. Its been a long time since I took out my spindle to have a new one made but they have to have a way to put or release pressure. The machinest I had make me a new spindle said the blueprints that came with the lathe were very nice. He is also a turner so he set the pressure to where it seemed right to him. That was over 10 years ago and the front bearings still sound good. Like your old lathe. Oh, I had him make me a spindle with 1 1/2 by 8 threads.
     
  17. rjones

    rjones

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    Bill what is is that the computer I use is the one at work the IT guy has the sound turned off so we can not use it, why I don't know but IT guys are IT guys. ( I do have permission to use it for things like this,break times)
    But with out hearing it, the difference in the bearings, way it is made or the material that is made of has to be causing the problem you have checked everything else.
    Has One Way said that they don't have that problem with any others if so may be they should get that one back and reverse engeneer it to see were the noise is coming from.
    I have a one way 1224 have had it for about 8 years do not use it everday you know that thing call paying work gets in the way of all the fun stuff, but it is a sweet lathe. But I am one also that does not crank down so hard on the tail stock, I depend on the chuck or face plate to hold the work and the tail stock to suport it, and on spindles the spur drive to spin the work. I have seen turners crank and crank and then crank some more on the tail stock, that is very hard on the majority of lathes,
     
  18. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    Bill, I answered your private email before coming here. If its true that the bearings can not be adjusted for load(makes no sense to me) then you are cooked. But the noise is terrible and Kevin should send you free of charge a new bearing to try. By the way I got a new live center and the bearings are loud when I crank it tight. My old one is no sound at all but got sloppy. Is OW buying cheaper bearings? Not good if so.
     
  19. John Van Domelen

    John Van Domelen Retired Forum Admin

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    Wow - what a mess.

    Whether its OW responsibility to replace parts or the entire lathe or not is so much the issue. This whole mess just makes them look unresponsive and uncaring - not so good PR.

    If one purchases a Cadillac lathe, one would expect Cadillac service after the sale.

    Just bad PR on their part. Send OW a link to this thread maybe...
     
  20. John Fabre

    John Fabre

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    If this is true, I want a refund.
     

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