2436 spindle noise question (clattering)

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Bill Luce, May 6, 2011.

  1. John Lawson

    John Lawson

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    And if you fail to WIN, you can still UNWIND with more WINE.
     
  2. KellyDunn

    KellyDunn

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    As I recall Bill likes beer. But when the humor patrol shows up in a thread you know the curse has been lifted, results will favor Bill, and I am sorry I will not be at the table with you.
     
  3. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    I've received emails from a couple folks that have reported the newer 2436's they have heard sound similar to them to the newer one in my vids, as contrasted to the older ones which are legendary for quiet.

    I just got another email from someone who owns both an older and newer 2436 (and some other lathes) and he said when he compared the sound of his 2436's back to back, the comparison is similar to my vids. He referred to the newer one as the "dry bearing" sound and the old one very quiet like mine.

    Naturally take all opinions fwtw, the only opinion that matters is your own.

    I can't help but wonder if the newer double bearing setup is the issue (Kevin thinks not and told me they found them to be quieter).

    And if so, I wonder if a person could retrofit their newer 2436 with the older style twin bearings and solve the issue?

    Curse that curse! Calling the humor patrol...
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  4. ray hampton

    ray hampton

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    is there any way that you can shine a light into the spindle housing and inspect the bearing seat
     
  5. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

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    Ray, I am not sure what you mean. Here's pics of a new style spindle with the front double row bearing. I can't see any smoking guns when I inspect either the bearings externally or where the bearings fit into. All bearings are a snug fit into their corresponding endcaps.

    The last two pics show a different spacing on two of the latest spindles between the bearings and pulley, but I am not sure if/what it means.Maybe nothing. The two spindles sound about the same to me. A while back I sent Kevin these pics along with a question of whether it made any difference (like in terms of pulley alignment) but never heard back.

    I encourage anyone who is interested that hasn't listened to any of the vids comparing lathes to listen to one

    like http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/1/QYwxxqkoFyg for example,to hear the difference between my two lathes. That's all that matters here.

    Sounds like bearings to me, although not much sound at lower speeds. A friend stopped by this afternoon from out of town and listened to both machines (not a turner but sharp with machines) and it really sounded like bearings to him. He didn't have time to explore further.

    I am really pressured by woodturning deadlines these days, and at this point in the long saga I think it's best I just leave the newer 2436 continued parked until I either hear back from OW with some advice (it's been pretty quiet on their end for a while) or I get the chance to start lathe shopping in St. Paul.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  6. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Bill, Looking at your last photo with the bearings pressed close to the hex bolt heads, the thought occurs that at higher RPMs you'll get air turbulence in that space that is acting like a fan's blades. Is it possible that the sound you're getting is actually being generated that way? I'd look carefully at your old headstock to see what, if anything has changed in that area. Long shot, I know.

    PS: Listened to your video again and, with that whistling harmonic, it does sound like an "air noise" to me. I'd also check for any change in the surface of the indexing ring. Last pix seems to show a series of weight-reducing holes inside of the actual indexing ring. If your old one lacks those, that could account for the air noise I think I'm hearing.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2011
  7. John Brown

    John Brown

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    In picture #4 it looks like the bearing is touching the bolt heads.
     
  8. rjones

    rjones

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    Bill looking at your pictures, first picture I see the bearings have no scrach marks on them come in and out of the housing, and in the second picture the bearings on the other end of the spindle have scraches on them from coing in and out of the housing. My question is one bearing housing tighter than the other, everything is drawing for straws at this point, but if the bearing housing is too tight it could be putting too much pressure on the bearings,
     
  9. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    That is also my thought.

    I also noticed scuffing on the bearing that looks like it had been forced into the headstock recess and the galling could have been caused by metal particles or some other type of grit or possibly from the bearing being inserted slightly cocked and then forced in. Neither scenario is particularly good, but the second one is worse and of even more concern would be HOW the bearing was pressed in. If any force was applied to the inner race, that could potentially ruin the bearing.

    I am wondering about the beveled finger washer and how it is being used. If it is being used to preload the bearing, it seems to me that it ought to be flipped to face the other direction.

    If the bearings are angle type, they should be identified in some manner to indicate which way is which. There is always the possibility that the bearing have been installed backwards. If that is the case, when the bearing assembly is "preloaded", it would actually be getting a negative load that would open the clearance between balls and race. That, definitely could be a reason for noise.
     
  10. Dale Miner

    Dale Miner

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    Bill B,

    The print calls for outboard bearings to be 6008. I don't believe that they are angular contact bearings.

    Dale M
     
  11. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    The fact that they apparently are axially preloaded led me to assume they are angle bearings since regular bearings are not designed for more than very small axial loads. Ignore the fact that most woodturners essentially ignore this and preload the heck out of the bearings by honking down on the tailstock pressure.
     
  12. Owen Lowe

    Owen Lowe

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    According to the 24xx schematic, the "toothed" washer in the pictures is correctly facing away from the bearing.
     
  13. Alan Trout

    Alan Trout

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    Bill,

    There are deep groove race ball bearings that are designed to take axial load. They are not as good as a tapered roller bearing IMHO for this application but will take it and are able to take some preload.

    Alan
     
  14. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    OK, I need to look at Bill's photo again -- I made the comment because I thought that I saw the toothed edge facing towards the bearing.
     
  15. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    OK, that sounds reasonable. Double row bearings with tight double labyrinth rubber seals will not be as quiet as single row bearings, but still they will not be noticeably loud as what Bill Luce is experiencing.

    I am not quite sure what is meant by the term "spindle cartridge" that has been mentioned several times in this thread, but I assume that it means that he has received new spindles that included new bearings already pressed onto the spindle shafts. If that is the case, the problem is becoming rather difficult to solve (duh, I guess that that is more than an obvious statement).

    I think that it would be worth mic'ing the spindle to see if the diameter is within the tolerance for the inner bearing race. If the diameter is too large, that could create an internal dimension problem in the bearing assembly. It would also be worthwhile to check the technical specs for the bearing to make sure that the maximum speed is not being exceeded.

    Also, sometimes a different lubricant is used for bearing use at higher speeds. I haven't verified this lately, but I seem to recall that ball bearing assemblies are typically filled to about 30% of the internal air space. If a bearing somehow was overfilled, the bearing can overheat and also become noisy at high speed because internal drag resistance becomes very high.

    My gut feel about the weight of the headstock is that it is a non-issue. The sound deadening of cast iron is greatly over rated for the frequencies that are of concern and a small change in mass would only translate to a much smaller change in the detected sound. Our ears have a logarithmic response to loudness, so even doubling the sound energy would only amount to a small difference in perceived sound level. A ten to twenty percent difference in headstock mass is not going to cause anything remotely close to doubling in sound energy. Bearings should be quiet and not be noisy regardless of the headstock mass.
     
  16. Dale Miner

    Dale Miner

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    Bill B,

    It is my understanding that the current version at the inboard end uses a single bearing that is a double row deep groove angular contact bearing without a loading notch. This type bearing can be preloaded at the time of assembly. The amount of preload is determined at the time of assembly and can not be adjusted post assembly. The preload can be spec'd as zero, light, moderate, or heavy. The preload would be determined by differences in the distance between the centerlines of the inner and outer races, hence, no post assembly adjustment. But, and I do think it is a big but, if the shaft was oversize, or the housing undersize, then the amount of preload would be increased. A slight change in shaft dimension could cause a large change in preload by increasing the working diameter of the inner race. This increase in conjuction with the angular contact arrangement would in effect change the centerline spacing, increasing the preload.

    The 6008 bearings on the outboard end are a single row deep groove without a loading notch (I think). An oversize shaft/undersize housing at this location could cause the bearing to lose clearance between the balls and the races and run 'tight'. In the assembly drawing, it looks as though there is a spacer between the outer races of the two 6008 bearings. This could be a way of allowing a light preload of the two bearings when the collar at the end of shaft is installed, if the setscrews retaining the collar tighten into the sides of the respective groove imparting a sideways force pressing the inner races against the shoulder on the shaft or against the spacer that is against the shoulder on the shaft.

    The toothed washer is a lock washer. It has a tab that fits into a keyway in the shaft. Once the nut is tightened, a tooth or finger is found that lines up with a spanner notch in the nut, and bent into the spanner notch preventing the nut from coming loose.
     
  17. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Very Strange

    Has anyone looked at Oneway's Warranty?

    Spend 8K for their lathe, but it seems that Bill's problem, if it's caused by the bearings, drive, or wheels is NOT covered so Oneway doesn't have to fix his brand new, never used lathe.

    See for yourself and tell me otherwise. Read the exclusion paragraph carefully.

    http://www.oneway.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=11
     
  18. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

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    Warenty

    Have been following this thread....and not to be bashing OW...but compare their warenty to the mustard machines warenty and I think maby the mustard is a better deal....and the Robust sure looks good also.......to me service after the sale is at least 50% of the of the sale......Just saying.......Again thanks much for posting it sure may have saved me from having the same problem..
     
  19. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, I learned that bearings, drives, and wheels are not manufactured parts. :D

    What if I bought a car with that kind of warranty? What am I saying ???? I would never buy a car where parts made by suppliers were excluded in the warranty.
     
  20. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

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    Duh? [not a trick question :rolleyes:]
     

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