2436 spindle noise question (clattering)

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Bill Luce, May 6, 2011.

  1. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,131
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    Also, I have put spindles in the freezer and sometimes even heated bearings with a blow dryer. With a bit of thermal expansion/contraction, I have had bearings easily slide into place. If the same thing were done at room temperature, it might require pressing. Make sure that the mating surfaces are absolutely clean and free of damage and then put some light grease on the spindle shaft to minimize the chance of galling. Make sure that the bearing is not cocked. Never apply any force across the balls. Don't hammer the bearing onto the spindle and make sure that force is applied evenly around the entire circumference and not on one side.

    Heating the bearing is somewhat of a last resort because it is not easy to determine beforehand whether it will cause the inner diameter to expand or shrink. If the outer diameter is more than twice the inner diameter, it is likely that the inner diameter will shrink when heater and, therefore, should be avoided. For "thin" bearings where the inner diameter is more than 3/4 of the outer diameter, heating has a much better chance of working. Freezing the spindle to approximately -15° F has always worked for me unless the bearing is the type design for a stretch tight fit. I normally fabricate "presses" out of all-thread, washers, nuts, and modified PVC fittings to remove and install bearings.
     
  2. Dale Miner

    Dale Miner

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    201
    Bill B,

    "Heating the bearing is somewhat of a last resort because it is not easy to determine beforehand whether it will cause the inner diameter to expand or shrink. If the outer diameter is more than twice the inner diameter, it is likely that the inner diameter will shrink"

    Please explain that to me. I have never heard of a relationship between inner and outer having an effect on expansion rates.

    When the outer race is heated, regardless the diameter, it is going to expand and become larger. Same holds true of the inner race. When a bearing is heated evenly, all parts expand proportionately.

    A bearing that is pressed or shrunk onto a shaft that is too large can rapidly lose the designed in clearance between the balls and the races, and run as if heavily loaded from the improper shaft diameter. Same holds true if the housing fit is to tight. A bearing that has an interference fit on the shaft and in the housing is at double jeopardy for this situation.

    Some bearings require a very specific shaft size to run properly, some (SKF double row spherical) require a tedious installation that involves measuring roller to race clearances while expanding the inner race with a tapered mounting sleeve.

    When installing a bearing on a shaft, the force to install should only be applied to the inner race. When installing into a housing, the force should only be applied to the outer race. Applying the installation force to the wrong race can damage the bearing by making dents in the races and flat spots on the balls or rollers. This condition is termed "Brinelling". A Brinelled bearing will usually be noisy and short lived.
     
  3. Bart Leetch

    Bart Leetch

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    207
    Hmm I wonder if this isn't the problem. I really wonder if changing out the bearings with new one's if possible better quality bearings installed by a professional shop that really knows their stuff & them documenting the change & what they found. Maybe have them listen to the lathe & document the problems they find then change the bearings & run & re-document.
     
  4. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    To me the problem with the lathe is something that can be solved with realitive ease..........The problem with the the aperent stance of the customer service dept. is very telling to me.....Robust=7 years.....Powermatic=5 years....oneway=2 years..maby and almost nothing covered!!!! I used to look at a oneway and think "what a beauty!" now Im thinking the beauty is much less than skin deep!!!! and I havnt ask but Im betting if I were to ask Robust would be more than happy to have one powdercoated almost any color a person would want to pay for.......{except maby MUSTERD} HE HE......And it looks like a person can get a STUBBY in any color ya want to Paint it when ya get it home!!!! I ask Bill about Stubbys warenty and it is two years ..he will help you figure outy any and all problems and send ya the parts to fix it.....got no problem with that!!! To each their own...but for me oneway is off the list....at my age I dont want to fool with their service........Now if I could just figure out how to get this darn pooter to spell right!!!!!
     
  5. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,131
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    Unless you read all of the fine print and even between the lines in the warranty, you might be fooling yourself -- simply comparing the numbers 7, 5, 2, etc. does not give you the complete story. For instance, the seven year Robust warranty covers Robust made mechanical parts plus the bearings. It does not include the motor or controller or any of the electrical stuff. For those items, you will need to go to Leeson or Toshiba, etc. to see what their warranty coverage is. Oneway does not cover the bearings in their warranty, but they might possibly include the motor and controller in their warranty plan (don't know for sure). Powermatic treats their lathe as a complete system and doesn't parse out the warranty to various subsystem suppliers.

    Lathes are simple machines and about the only things that wear out are the drive belts and the bearings. For the top end lathes, I would not worry much about the length of a warranty once the machine makes it past the infant mortality stage which is where manufacturing defects will normally show up.
     
  6. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,131
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    What you believe is intuitive is not necessarily the case. In the case of an infinitely thin ring, what you say is true, but at some point as the thickness of the ring grows, there will be a point at which the inner diameter no longer changes with temperature. For thicknesses greater than that, the inner diameter will decrease as temperature increases.

    We've been conditioned to accept that things expand when heated -- while that is essentially true, we need to keep in mind what exactly is expanding -- it is the thickness of the metal and not the hole in the middle. Imagine a thick metal ring that is heated: the thickness of the metal increases which means that it will expand to make the outer diameter larger and also make the inner diameter smaller.

    Since a bearing is a much more complex structure than a solid metal ring, determining the answer is not a simple straightforward calculation.

    Some precision bearings are designed for a certain preload that is obtained by having the inner bearing diameter slightly smaller than the spindle. The tolerance on the spindle diameter for that type of precision bearing is very tight. It is not something that you would encounter in a woodturning lathe because of cost.

    Very true and too many people install/remove bearings as if they were a solid piece of steel by pounding on any convenient part of the bearing.
     
  7. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    Bill B.... I totaly agree with your thoughts on the warrantys.....and reading each one. have e-mailed a couple of the companys and ask for them to explan. some times my two finger typeing runs out ahead of my thoughts and some tines visa-versa!!!! and my last post is a fine example of that!!! Most times if a company is willing to have a long warrenty period it is an indication of their faith in the product.....thats when I start asking past customers about their dealings with that company.......and the product. If there are problems with the customer service it will show up real fast. what would be nice is if we could put a copy of each lathe in a big old box and shake em up and then take out the best of each one and put together a lathe of the best parts...:D
     
  8. Dale Miner

    Dale Miner

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    201
    Bill B,

    Intuitive is not what I was using as my basis for the 'all parts expand proportionately' statement. I have a fair bit of experience in shrinking parts together. Not once has that experience seen a bore get smaller from heating. This includes very heavy wall couplings as well as bearings. Some parts with a10" OD and 2" ID, were expanded enough to make for easily installation with a shaft that was .008" larger than the cold dimension of the bore. I can't get my head around the theory that the inner diameter will get smaller, and experience tends to refute the theory. Rather than banter this around until it is a well beaten dead horse, I think agreeing to disagree is the direction I will go.

    I was acutally referring to bearing clearances in a general manner regarding shaft sizes and bearing clearances, however, the bearing in question (double row angular contact) is one that can or can not be spec'ed with a built in preload. Regardless the initially spec'ed preload, an unintentional oversize shaft in this case then would make a substantial change to the desired installed preload. Without acutal measurements of the parts in question, a conclusion as to whether this situation exitst or not is not possible.

    And yes, nearly every case of a 'Bad New Bearing' was found to be installation damage. There are cases of bearings that are bad from the packaging, but they are rare.
     
  9. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,131
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    There would only be a perfect lathe design if everybody else thought like me. :D However, every person's idea of perfect is unique. I was going to build a "perfect" lathe for myself, but finally decided that I could spend my life building the "perfect" lathe or settle for a reasonable facsimile of "perfect" and actually get in some time for turning rather than dreaming about it. Since nothing else in my shop is perfect nor are my turning skills, it seems that a perfect lathe might just be overkill -- not that there is anything wrong with having a "perfect" lathe. :)

    I didn't mean to imply that your intuition is faulty. What I meant to say is that it seems intuitive in a general sense. I know that it certainly did to me in my first semester thermodynamics class. That was around 40 years ago, but I remember it well because it was the course that engineering students looked forward to the least. As an electrical engineering student, I figured that I would never have any real world use for thermodynamics, but I figured wrong. There seems to be a good reason why second year students are called "sophomores". :p

    Determining how complex geometries such as bearing assemblies change with temperature is not a simple matter. Designers use analytical tools such as finite element analysis to help answer that question. Part of the design process for bearing designers is to optimize the geometry such that dimensional changes do not significantly impact critical performance characteristics such as preload and friction. But, I suspect that dimension change with temperature for the inside diameter of an unmounted bearing assembly is not much more than a minor "blip" on their radar.
     
  10. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    Spindle noise

    Has there been any update to the problem? been solved?
     
  11. Steve Kubien

    Steve Kubien

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Ajax, Ontario, Canada
    Home Page:
    I was hoping you would come back from St. Paul with new hardware in tow. Alas...
     
  12. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    Me too.

    My hope was to get a replacement headstock/spindle from OW in St Paul that a friend could bring back to finally end the saga (I returned to OW the last two headstocks and all three problem spindles in St Paul) but once I got there Kevin didn't have one ready for me.

    I sent him a few emails and left phone messages since then and was told he now sent me a new spindle (no other info). I haven't been able to get them to reply email or phone for a week now to confirm that he sent out a complete headstock (because I returned the other ones) that hopefully 1) he had listened to at high rpms to confirm it problem free and 2) take a minute and confirm that spindle does not have the same thread problems like the last two new spindles.

    I am really hoping he sent me a whole headstock mainly because then this grief might be over, but also because the way they packed the last spindle catridge they sent me was poor and the pulley was buggered a bit. Never got them to acknowledge that issue either so I am afraid it would happen again.

    So I still don't know where I am at yet in terms of getting that lathe back together. But it's gotten to be a pretty familiar feeling over the last 7 months. (e.g. Kevin has not once called me back during this period and I am not sure reads his email often.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  13. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    one way.....cust. service?

    One way sure is making Robust,Serious and Stubby look good!!!!
     
  14. Steve Kubien

    Steve Kubien

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Ajax, Ontario, Canada
    Home Page:
    I'd love to see a review of the Titan. Sliding and swiveling headstock, 12" between bearings supporting the spindle... Oh ya....
     
  15. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    There is a "review"in the UK woodturning mag. As you may have noticed, no magazine tool reviews are actually real reviews anymore as they are forced to be very positive about tools to maximize their advertising revenue. (To survive.)

    Martin/Magma didn't really have any wood at their booth in St Paul, although a person in a couple booths over brought some wood to play with.

    I would love to spend some serious time on the Titan 400 with a range of sizes of wood and all my own tools. If there was one within a few hours of me I would make it happen. I don't know if they sold the 400 they had there, I know they sold the 315 they had in Hartford and I"ve talked to the owner a few times.

    Here's my impressions based on the time I did spend with/on it:
    Pros:
    Sliding and PIVOTING headstock. Pivoting the headstock allows one to work in the same position relative to lights, mess, tools, etc.
    Very well built, like a tank.
    Headstock and tailstock move very well considering their massize sive.
    Seemed very strong for 3hp, compared back to back with 3 other lathes in St Paul.
    30 inch swing. Both for larger work and more room to drop tool handles (for me 24 inchesis a min for that)
    Big bearings and like 18 inches between bearings.
    Top quality components including a quality motor that has bearings rated for 8000rpm (good because they overdrive the plate speed)
    Massive tailstock barrel/quill for serious boring (which I do)
    Two position ramp up down toggle.
    Certainly the most solid pivoting headstock lathe I am aware of.
    Like the way the extension goes on the end cantalevered so max foot room working on end.

    Cons (for me anyway)
    Max speed (3000 rpms) much noisier than say AB or vl300 (both of which are quiet). A disappointment given my ongoing saga with my second 2436.
    Only two pulley speeds. Manufacturors like this because it is simpler, but I feel it is dumbing down the machine for the masses. Most full time turners I have talked to about this feel the way I do - we want three pulley ranges for max control. Power is not the only issue here - safety and max control for choices of ramp up and down the bigger issues. This is a minus for me then. I would be slow to buy a two pulley range lathe for my main working lathe. The top rpm (overdriven or not) is sort of fixed in the 2700-3000 range, but for example if overdriven I would rather have a lathe with a lower bottom range and then put in a range in the middle. Manufacturors seem to think turners hate changing speeds, but on a decent lathe for a full time turner it takes maybe 10 seconds. I would rather take that time and have more control. The larger the work the more important (remember, this lathe has a 30 inch swing yet shares the exact same speed ranges as the 25 inch version.) In fact, with a max of around 900 rpm in the lower speed, it would actually force me to change belts speeds during more often within the process of a single bigger piece so in truth I would be changing pulleys speeds more often, rather than less.

    The toolpost holder is offset toward the center about three inches which makes the banjo handle a bit of a b_ll buster. I assume they did that to make centering the toolrest in the ways easier, but I am not sure I like it (I'd have to spend more time with it).
    The machine is narrow to allow what they call good access to the work, but I would really like to see the leading edge of the headstock bevelled just alittle to allow better left handed access to work. The headstock edge (along with the large headstock lever which is right in the way of my tool handle for much of my work) give me less access to the top of small closed bowls than the OW or the AB (except with the AB the headstock handle can be in the way a little as well). I feared it would not be ideal from the pics for some of my work, and in person it was exactly as I expected. I mentioned it to them, but my impression is that they think I have too many expectations of what I want - rather than just taking what they want as a given.
    With any rotating headstock, some fiddly is required to align the headstock and tailstock but that is a reasonable tradeoff (they need some play in the pin to make putting it in and out reasonably easy).
    The "control panel" is right up in my face more than I would like, but I think it could be remounted at an angle maybe to be less obtrusive.
    A compromise is the 40 mm toolpost size. A 30mm adapter is available. They have a range of toolrests available (for a price), but for general work I like to be able to hook my finger under the rest for control, and most of their toolrests don't support that. So for me anyway, I would need to have several custom rests made to be comfortable with the lathe. A solvable problem.
    I am not aware of a slick wheelset like the OW (kudos to them on that) that would make moving the lathe easy but easily come on and off

    Min rpm is around 83 by default. That can be programmed somewhat slower, but I sometimes want slower than this and reprogramming min speed sometimes involves other compromises in performance.
    Support naturally not available at the level of say PM, Robust, CS Vicmarc (or even Aussie flavor Vicmarcs) at this time until more market penetration.

    Default spindle thread is metric. For some that is a turnoff, but for me it's a positive as my studio is heavily invested in metric chucks, etc.

    Just some off the top of my head thoughts. They are extrememly proud of the two speeds and therefore it's set in stone, but if they were to make certain other minor tweaks it is a very interesting lathe. Still on my short list of lathes I am considering (vl300, AB, MT400).

    They have a 25inch version (315) but without the extra swing of the 400 (30 inch) I think it will be a hard sell to compete with less expensive lathes that have a strong US distribution infrastructure. The very solid pivoting headstock may be very attractive to some though....

    I think it has some serious engineering into it (which maybe they seem a little too proud of to be open minded), but they are basing their input from a handful of European (and maybe NZ) turners and my impression is that they don't think we US turners are sophisticated enough to have additional important feedback. With a wider range of feedback from users it has the potential to be a lathe to be reckoned with. As it is it is a bit of a specialty lathe, IMV.


    TIFWIW.

    Naturally everyone has different needs/wants depending on their own work. I have been thinking alot about my own lathe wants/needs over the past few months and am motivated to make a my next purchase the overall best choice for my current and future work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2011
  16. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    Never did heard back from OW, but I did receive my old headstock UPS (looking a bit beat up now) with a new spindle set in it.

    Shoulder and registers measure great, but threads are visibly off when turning slow just like the previous two spindles. DI on just an insert alone (no chuck body) show a wobble of about .007 becauase the threads are too far from center to allow the inserts to seat fully. So chucks really wander about like previous spindles. Sigh.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  17. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    OW service

    Sounds to me like OW wants you to try a Robust lathe.......From what I read on the net folks are real happy with them...and one that Im looking at more and more is the Stubby.....been reading through the past postings of the Stubby group and havent found a lot of problems with their lathes being posted.And from what Ive read so far the cust. service is close to fantastic!! Understand Im not a pro..turner by any means...I just turn because it gives me a lot of enjoyment....my lathe is a grizzly G5979....and Im thinking that any lathe of any brand would be a hugh improvement over it. But when I do up grade it will be the best I can aford to buy. The stubby is a strange looking bird when I first saw one, but the 750 has a 30 inch swing and the 1000 has a 40 inch swing....which would make a fare size platter or pot!! and I think I read where one fellow turned a mast for his sail boat on one....should just about cover any spendle a person would want to turn!!......Bill Im thinking if it was me I would Sell both of the white monsters and get something that wouldnt piss me off every time I looked at it....JMT life is to short as it is...BE happy Jerry sorry about the rambling
     
  18. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    Jerry, the AB is defintely one of the lathes I am keeping an eye on, I like some things about it. The stubby doesn't work for me as I need more swing as my turning style has me lowering my gouge handles at times which the shorter lathes prevent (gouge handle hits the ways). So I am not really comfortable on a lathe with less than 24 inches swing, even with small work.

    btw, it's been verified that the culprit with the extreme bearing noise at higher rpms with the newer bigger OW's is the double row bearing that OW went to a number of years ago to save costs.

    OW says a bearing consultant suspects it's a problem with the cages. I asked Kevin why don't they just go back to the superior old twin bearing system like the older ones and he said to get the preload correct is too time consuming and therefore costly.

    They are currently trying a polyamide cage version of the same bearings. It promises to be much quieter, although how it will perform overall has not been established. It is a bearing they considered when they chose the previous doublerow bearing and decided at time it was not the best choice. I don't really know the issues.

    Never have gotten Kevin to acknowledge a problem with spindle threads is even possible, and my guess is the spindles I returned will end up in new machines figuring the next person doesn't know the difference.

    This is the third wonky spindle threads in a row and in it's current state I wouldn't be comfortable selling the problem to someone else (interesting how OW resale values have really dropped in the past year). I begged Kevin to take 60 seconds with a dial indicator and something threaded on the spindle to spare me this grief of yet another bad spindle (it's gotten to the point of being surreal). And I hate to think now of how many OW spindles must be out there with thread induced runout that trusting turners are struggling with.

    I have begun trying to contact OW about the latest spindle issue but I dread how frustrating that always has been for me (both in trying to get through and then trying to interest Kevin in helping). And so far it hasn't done me much good. and the bummer continues I guess.

    I need to stop thinking about it for now as it is a distraction from my work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
  19. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    lathes

    Bill
    Actualy the 750 Stubby has a 30 inch swing and the 1000 has a 40 inch swing if ya max them out......unless Im missing something.... Jerry
     
  20. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    That is is the potential swing where you open the gap, but the distance of the spindle above the ways is fixed. So unless I am turning at the very end of the ways, my tool handle hits. Just a personal style thing.

    I just spent some more time examining the latest spindle I received to try to better measure how far off the threads are. When turned, the threads move side to side approx .006 and that is what is causing the runout of .006+ on even just a threaded insert by itself (no chuck). Once again I should really be doing work but I am motivated to try to get this all behind me.

    In looking close at the spindle they sent I see a worn thin line of red ink on the edge of one of the spindle registers. It looks coincidentally exactly like markings I made while trying figure out the problems with one of the defective spindles that I returned. And some identical blue machinist ink as well right where I put some. And some other slights marks as well look amazingly similar to the one I returned....

    And of the defective thread spindles I have received, this one and one of the previous ones did measure the same runout (the others read different).

    I am positive it is one of the defective spindles I returned to them, and I guess they figured I couldn't tell the difference! (They don't know me very well....)

    Now I am getting a bit pissed. I told them that spindle was defective in no uncertain terms and it's hard to keep believing they are trying in good faith to make things right. There is the old definition of insanity that it is doing the same thing and expecting something different to happen.

    (And another full time turner I know told me when he was trying to resolve a defective OW spindle issue he felt the bearings they sent out the second time were used.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011

Share This Page