2436 spindle noise question (clattering)

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Bill Luce, May 6, 2011.

  1. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,124
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    Bill, if you are checking radial runout at the threads of the spindle then that is not the correct procedure. Threads can't and shouldn't be depended on as part of the alignment system -- they are primarily fasteners. Your spindle should have one or two register surfaces that provide precision alignment. Almost all woodturning lathes have a flat register surface near the base of the threads which is perpendicular to the spindle axis. A few lathes also have a cylindrical register surface between the flat surface and the threaded part of the spindle. My Delta 1440 has this configuration and I love it (one of the few things that I love about this lathe) because it provides both angular and radial precision alignment. However, it also requires the chuck insert to be counterbored to take advantage of this feature. I sent an engineering drawing to Oneway to modify a couple inserts and now I am as happy as a clam. (Note to those who stick a piece of milk carton plastic over the register -- the plastic is not a precision part so don't whine if the chuck wobbles.)

    One other thing is to measure the runout with the spindle unloaded. This means removing the drive belt. All bearing assemblies deflect under load.

    If money were no object, you could consider going to high precision bearings built to specification from Fafnir or Torrington, but such bearings are unbelievably expensive. Woodturning lathe manufacturers have to decide where to draw the line between cost and performance benefit and that means using off the shelf parts. It sounds like OW has recently answered you question about the change in noise level and given you their rationale for their design change. Having worked in industry, I understand OW's point about time and cost of adjusting preload. A huge part of manufacturing costs go into things that need precision alignment especially if it is time consuming. Companies don't make design changes on a whim since the recovery of NRE costs is slow. It appears that the previous design may have been overly problematic to them. and going to their current design looked like the better choice of two evils.
     
  2. Steve Kubien

    Steve Kubien

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Ajax, Ontario, Canada
    Home Page:
    For a while, the 1640 with the 24" extension was my dream lathe. I am really glad I wound up with a DVR, saving about $3K overall. That's sad to say as I prefer to keep my money in Canada when I can. Oh well, I am happy with my decision and I got to meet and deal with Andre Martel in the process. Great guy and a pleasure to deal with.
     
  3. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    Bill,


    I realize threads in theory simply pull the nut in, but if off enough they are a problem (like with these threads).

    It took me a while to verify this with the first spindle, as I was under the impression that the threads would have enough play to not affect the final nut placement. Only after a few consultations with professional friends did I really understand what was going on here. I was distracted by the fact the shoulder and registers on these spindles are within tolerances (.0003). I even stopped and bought a better (decent Japanese) DI to make sure my readings were sound.

    The threads themselves on the most recent spindles I have are not centered on the rotation. They are far off enough that the inserts (chucks, etc) are not able to sit flush on the spindle shoulder or be quite centered by the registers.


    Final proof with one of the spindles (not the one they returned to me) was with Kevin's permission I turned down the high spots on one of the defective spindles (it was not quite as bad as this one) threads and once the threads were "round" inserts ran quite true.

    I am saying these threads are off enough it is keeping inserts from seating correctly in spite of the shoulder and registers being within spec.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2011
  4. Mark Mandell

    Mark Mandell

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Messages:
    2,542
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Bill,

    I said it in private, I'll say it in public.

    You Are Wasting Your Time with Oneway

    Do the consult I suggested and move on. They've had so many chances to make this right it's ridiculous. You have real remedies for this; use them!
     
  5. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    spindle noise

    Bill I would agree with Mark...Sell them and move on to a lathe that fits your requirements. and yes the AB sure is a looker! and Im betting they would be more than happy to have you come and test run it before it is shiped to you. and from what Im reading, the follow up service is going to be much more pleasent to deal with!! as an aside note...a fellow near me was thinking about a OW..and after letting him read this thread and a cople more I have seen he to has decided to look else where........Later Jerry
     
  6. John Fabre

    John Fabre

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    Messages:
    40
    Location:
    Northern Utah
    I have a one year old Oneway 2436 3hp, no problems and no noise. To be fair, Oneway has given Bill countless head stocks and spindles, what more, replace the whole lathe.
    If you don't own or can't afford a Oneway, don't knock them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  7. Jerry Ellsaesser

    Jerry Ellsaesser

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Mo.
    Ow

    Sure glad the first amendment still applys in my state.
     
  8. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    John,

    I am glad you are happy with your 2436. I have been very happy with my first 2436 for over a dozen years and have been a strong advocate for the 2436 until last December when I tried to put into service a second 2436. I still turn pretty much 7 days a week on that first lathe.

    Yes during the last 7 months (over 6 months of which was spent in waiting) I did finally simply order a new headstock for the second 2436 -received with an invoice charged to my CC- to put things behind me with price/cost never had been the object. At each stage my goal is simply to get that lathe into a similar condition to my original so I could use it for my work.

    That spindle in that headstock I bought had defective threads that did not allow chucks to seat correctly. Kevin's response was that it is not possible for the threads to be off.

    Eventually after much effort and the usual ignored emails I did receive a second spindle which surprisingly had the same problem. The spindle shoulders and registers were fine, the threads too off center to allow chucks to set and run true.

    I started this thread after 5 months into my saga to try to figure out what other newer 2436s sound like to help me figure out my next step with my second one- give up and store it, or fix it. For anyone thinking I am talking some sort of subtle difference in bearing sounds between my second 2436 and my first one, I recorded the lathes on youtube (Kevin said it was a good idea so he could listen for himself). If interested, one can go to youtube and search on VesselMaker or use a link such as this one.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/2/QYwxxqkoFyg

    In regard to the loud bearing sounds my newer lathe had at higher rpms, it turns out the single double row bearing OW have been using for several years (as oppsed to the old twin bearings with custom preload) is considerably noisier at high rpms than the older style, although there is a wide range of variability in how each one sounds (I have heard a bunch now). In fact in mid June OW started to video a couple new lathes and recognized this bearing noise issue for themselves. They decided the bearing cages were much noiser than the old 2436 (or other lathes) at higher rpm (as verified by their bearing consultant's measuring equipment -tse). That same consultant actually took apart multiple new copies of that bearing and reported evidence that the cages had all been damaged during manufacture.

    Starting just before St Paul, OW started using a polyamide caged version of the same double row bearing which is much quieter. They had me on hold for a long time to get a chance to hear that bearing in St Paul. I had the understanding they were going to have a complete headstock available for me to be able to listen to, measure with my DI (which I bought with me) to verify good threads and then take home with me again so I could finally put this all behind me.

    I did get to listen to a new 2436 in St Paul, but OW said they hadn't had time to bring me a headstock for me to take home. (I had returned both headstocks to them.) I left a couple phone messages and some emails (that following the pattern in this saga were never answered) trying to figure out what was up.

    A couple days ago I received my original headstock UPS (looking much worse for wear) with a spindle installed (the pulleys also looking worse for wear).

    My problem now after all this time waiting, they have chosen to send back to me the worse of those defective spindles I returned in St Paul after Kevin assured me they were sending me a new spindle from a 2436 I looked at in person in St Paul. If they have sent me my original spindle or the other defective spindle which I turned to work okay, I would have been better off. So after 7 months, much extra expense, and around 30 hrs directly involved in troubleshooting, etc I am back to square one. Keep in mind this lathe has never turned wood.

    And it has been very difficult along the way to get to talk to Kevin (only actually talked to him on the phone briefly three times during this and he has never returned a single phone call) and he has responded to only a handlful of emails so I am dreading yet more of the frustration. I'll spare you the full details of how it has felt like pulling teeth to get any response at every step of the way, and then how the follow through has been sort of shallow with a a perfect series of easily avoidable problems (with never an acknowledgment). A bit maddening and confusing to be a hostage of a manufacturer that seems not to care about a long time customer, frankly.

    In terms of affording an OW, I am not sure what you mean. I have spend tens of thousands of dollars on OW products over the past 13 years of turning full time. And many other tens of thousands of dollars on other related equipment.

    Bottom line is that you are happy with your 2436, that is all that matters. All the best, Bill
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  9. Steve Worcester

    Steve Worcester Admin Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    2,629
    Location:
    Plano, Texas
    Home Page:
    For the record, I have a 2436, 3HP, SN 1449, from 2003. If I put a chuck adapter on, a dial indicator on it, it has maybe .002" runout. If I put the indicator on the flat spot past the threads, it would go about .0005" or so, not really enough to move the needle. There is a slight harmonic growl (rhythmic) on the higher RPMs, not an noticeable as your by any means.
     
  10. Too Little to Matter?

    Aren't we talking about thread wobble and spindle runout so small that it really doesn't matter? We are not talking about machining metal with stationary tools/cutters and measurement tolerances in thousandths of an inch. We are talking about machining wood with hand held tools/cutters and measurement tolerances in tenths of an inch. And don't forget about wood movement when the turned piece is completed.

    I can't believe that the levels of thread wobble and spindle runout quoted by Bill will have any impact on the quality of turnings.

    With regard to bearing noise, I can't hear my lathe when turning because the dust collectors are running. So, what's the big deal about a little bearing noise?

    What am I missing here? - John
     
  11. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,124
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    A chuck that has an angular offset that is significant enough will have a resulting mass imbalance which would effect the turning if it were something very small and light because of the likelihood of slight vibration. That would be significant for detailed work like a finial. However, a chuck that is offset does not change the axis of rotation -- that is determined by the spin axis of the spindle. The mass imbalance caused by the chuck would not be a big factor if the turning were something very large and heavy because the total mass would swamp out the small mass imbalance. On the other hand if the turning is large diameter, but thin and light, the offset chuck can definitely contribute to vibration on the rim of a turning. Of course it is not the only thing -- for most of us heavy handed turners, tool control would be the biggie.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  12. Steve Worcester

    Steve Worcester Admin Emeritus

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Messages:
    2,629
    Location:
    Plano, Texas
    Home Page:
    I have to say that I routinely turn, rechuck and reverse chuck. When I mount a chuck that looks wobbly (scientific terminology) I put a DI on it and then usually spend some time adjusting the insert get it within a few thousands. If you get a nasty catch it can throw it off again. Repeatability is paramount
     
  13. ray hampton

    ray hampton

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky,U S A
    did you use a mike. on the spindle threads to see if both ends measure the same
     
  14. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    I did not actually measure how far the threads were off centered on the outboard on this spindle because when I put the DI on an insert only it only showed about .001 variation when turned which is great.

    The inboard shows about .006-7 measured on a insert alone (no chuck body) which corresponds approx to the same the threads move back and forth when turned on that end and in the same direction.

    I tried multiple inserts (and chucks) to rule out a problem with any one threaded insert.

    Shoulder and registers on the inboard side are great, maybe .0005 or a bit less.

    Do you mean mic the max diameter of the spindle threads one each end?

    When I was spending a bunch of time with the first defective spindle (which actually is the one they sent back with the new bearing) I was surprised how little play there actually is with a ow insert threaded onto a spindle (but not down against the shoulder). Rocking the loose insert back and forth only moves the DI around .004 or .005. I expected more play. All my spindles show about that amount of play so I am assuming it is normal (in fact vicmarc inserts are generally even a closer fit than ow.

    The play is less than the amount the top of the threads move back and forth when the spindle is turned, which is part of why inserts can't seat and run true. I don't have any way to measure if the bottom of the threads are as eccentric as the tops (which I can measure with a feeler gauge) but I am assuming they are the same because of the type of cutter I am guessing they used. Only guessing.

    I am the process of waiting for Kevin to respond to my phone calls/emails. It's been a couple weeks although one poster said he was told Kevin was on vaction currently. Until I (hopefully) hear from Kevin, I am going to try not to think about this lathe as it is very distracting from thinking about my work.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  15. ray hampton

    ray hampton

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky,U S A
    Bill, I was thinking that the threads might be different size from one end to the other end or that the thread end could be bent slightly
     
  16. ray hampton

    ray hampton

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky,U S A
    Bill , are the threads cut with a thread die or is the spindle mounted in a lathe and the threads cut this way, one solution would be to build the spindle end up by welding and recut the threads or turn the spindle down and attach a sleeve that are threaded[ not at your expense but at the manufacturing company ]
     
  17. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    wishful thinking....

    I have been thinking how it would be great if some machinist type turner started a small side business of replacing the old style twin front bearings for folks with pre 2005 2436's (or whenever exactly they stopped using that bearing) who decide that their bearings needed replacing. I am talking simply of reinstalling the old twin style bearings (with the appropriate pre load), rather than go to the single double row bearing currently used.

    I think it would involve having some of the bearings that were used on early 2436's on hand and fabbing a custom spacer for the correct preload but it seems like for the right person it would be really straightforward. Would be providing a useful service for those wanting to keep the benefits of the early style.

    I am told the 2436 spindle and endcaps have not changed at all.

    I am thinking they would help out folks wishing to replace the spindle bearings, but don't have any other sorts of problems that would need to involve OW.

    I know that would have saved me 7 months of embarrassment and frustration and expense and would probably have kept me in the OW camp.

    Another choice for folks that are handy with that sort of thing (I'm not experienced in that way) is to follow Kelly's suggestion and find a source for that bearing and do it yourself. But I think some experience in knowing how much preload to set with the spacer ( and how to measure it with endplay of the spindle) would be useful as my understanding is the spacer is matched to the measurements of the actual bearings. The fact that the way they originally designed the lathe around (and made their reputation) requires some time and expertise is the reason OW has decided to go with a single double row bearing - which is a simple press on and bolt together..

    And if they were in the US, for US turners it would not cost anymore overall than going the OW route for their new bearing. Because the border is involved, it cost me $100 a way just in shipping for each spindle I sent to OW (and only that cheap because I declared no value to simplify customs which means I can't insure it). And shipping costs would be a third of that domestically. And it would be much quicker - I called OW 6 weeks afer mailing them a spindle just for a bearing swap and they hadn't gotten around to it yet. Over two months to get my spindle back after a 2 hr job. If I only had a single lathe I would have been screwed.

    When I used to ride Beemers (motorcycles) there was several enthusiasts that provided different services to US members of the BMWOOA from diode replacement, aftermarket ignition conversions (back before good ones were OEM), various custom greasing and maintenance tools,speedo/odo rebuilds, to more sophisticated things like drilling heads for a double spark plug conversion. Each service was specialized, but usually was cheaper and much better than going to one's local dealer and offered a vary valuable option.

    And in fact it often forced BMW Germany to evolved themselves to solve certain problems themselves at the factory once another choice was available to the consumer. Options for the user are a good thing.

    Kind of how it is that OW makes dovetail jaws now after saying for years dovetail jaws were not as good and they would never make them........Until Vicmarc started selling tons of dovetail jaws for the SH. Got to love it.

    This all reminds me of how there seems to be sort of a community of 3520 owners that actively share tips and such. They enjoy it as well as are able to leverage eachother's efforts. In fact these days PM is sort of a sleeper as locally one can get a brand new scratch and dent 3520 for like $2200 and pick it up locally for free. A lot of lathe for the money if 20 inches of swing is all one needs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2011
  18. Bart Leetch

    Bart Leetch

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    207
    "I tried to turn up the rpm with a big chuck on this current headstock/defective spindle, and I was almost afraid to be in the same room as it. Really scary vibration levels. Like it was going to tear the lathe apart."


    Isn't this also hard on bearings?

    Sounds like you need to do a high speed reverse tailgate down delivery of the lathe right back to OW. You know you only need about 35' to get up enough speed to launch that 2436 right through the wall & into their lap.:D I'm kidding of course, but it sound awfully tempting.

    Also found this on their web site.


    Office Hours

    Mon - Fri: 8am - 5pm
    (Eastern Time: GMT -5)
    Summer Shutdown

    Our summer shutdown for this year is from Friday, July 13th through to Sunday, July 29th. During this period we will be operating on skeleton staff. We will do our best to answer your questions or ship your orders, but please be patient. We will be taking orders as usual.
    Address & Phone:

    241 Monteith Ave
    Stratford, Ontario
    N5A 2P6
    Canada

    Well Bill blessings come in all sizes, seeing as I am not a professional turner I'll be getting a Grizzly G0698 18" 2 HP lathe with sliding head stock & VFD. It falls in size between the Jet 1642 & the PM 3520B & for me $1400 to enjoy a hobby sounds about right. Yes I was drooling over the Robust lathes on their web site last night. But alas they are a bit out of my league. So with a good band-saw & lathe & chain-saw a stash of wood & time to enjoy it I'll be happy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  19. Bill Luce

    Bill Luce

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Home Page:
    Got an email response from OW finally. They admitted they put the new bearing on and sent me back the same defective spindle I had returned to them but said it was a mistake.

    Stuff happens, although this has been the pattern of my frustration with the way it's all been such a low slow priority for them that has had the lathe parked since Dec. Multiple "stuff happening" along the way due to careless inattention, and with plenty of long periods of waiting between them. And never any pretense of concern when I call after 4 or 5 weeks of waiting, only to hear that they forgot to tell someone to send the part, again. I try to say "they", but it seems the bottleneck is that K is simply maxed, as once the order gets to the front desk things happen in a timely fashion.

    I am just glad they admitted they put the new bearing on a returned defective spindle as that spares me the new hassle of trying to convince them it was the wrong spindle. With the current spindle I can't in good conscience even sell the lathe. I do expect they will replace this spindle, and once I again I have asked them to please please take a quick look at the new one with a DI before they ship it to spare us all.

    I am past being very upset anymore as it has gotten to the point of being slightly comical. Actually I feel a little bad for them that they are having so many problems drawn out over over half a year now.

    The way I see it now, in the long run this all may end up for the better as it forced me to consider new lathes for my studio which I had no plan of doing. I will probably keep my trusty old 2436 for the forseeable future if I can come up with a way to restore the spindle bearings to it's original old style performance level. Aside from the banjo, I have been very happy with it. Has taken a lickin and kept on tickin.

    I want to repeat I am not telling anyone which lathe to buy or not, just sharing info with the worldwide community of turners of which I am a part. For those unhappy with me, just ignore the thread.

    Okay, less whining and more work. I'm beating a dead horse and time to let this thread (and the flame emails I have gotten) die once and for all. Good turning, Bill

    edit: 8/12 (I don't want to bump thread) To those emailing me about it, still no word from Kevin on when they are going to have time to send me a new spindle. I am hoping they inspect the spindle this time (they haven't inspected a spindle yet before shipping). Given how it takes a couple months or more each time to get them to actually send a new spindle, I really want this one to be non defective.

    Here's a vid that tries to show the latest spindle is excellent outboard (within .0005 runout on an insert) and the inboard is out about .006+ on an insert (15-20 times as much). Naturally runout on a chuck body is much more (as much as .020). Also it tries to show that the spindle shoulder and registers (inboard) are within .0005. It is how the threads are not centered on the spindle that is keeping the inserts from seating correctly. My camera was not focusing close enough, so the vid is only for anyone that is bored enough to suffer through it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPOJzzIONH8

    So after almost 8 months now of waiting for a good spindle for my second 2436 while the lathe remains parked. I feel like a hostage, and am still flabbergasted at the lack of motivation to follow through with promises. One possibility is that OW has recognized wider problems in qc with spindles and is having a hard time coming up with one that has been threaded correctly. In all of this, if they had even just be upfront and communicative it would have been much less painful for me.

    It's ironic how the thread on the inexpensive Delta lathe talks about getting defective spindles replaced quickly and without fuss. That sounds dreamy now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  20. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    8,124
    Location:
    Dalworthington Gardens, TX
    Home Page:
    Stuff does happen. That reminds me of an experience that I had a few years ago with a Reeves style variable pulley on my Delta 1440 lathe. They are not very durable to say the least so I was constantly ordering replacements -- not a big deal because they didn't charge me for them.

    Anyway, there was a lot of discussion on various woodturning forums back then about problems with the Reeves pulleys on the Delta 1440 and other similar lathes. I had developed some methods to help mitigate the problem of these pulleys wearing out and shared them with other 1440 owners on one of the forums. About the same time that I ordered another replacement pulley and was informed that it was on back-order on a slow boat from China, another 1440 owner sent his broken pulley to Delta to show them the problem and asked them to send the pulley to me so that I could examine it (I guess he thought that I worked for Delta). Anyway, I received my "new" replacement pulley earlier than expected -- all greasy, gritty, beat-up, and broken in a plastic bag with a note that said please send this to Bill Boehme. :D I can laugh about it now, but i was absolutely livid at the time. I got on the phone and gave some poor unsuspecting customer support person in Jackson, TN an earful. Fortunately, the slow boat had finally arrived and they overnighted the real deal to me.

    I can't complain about their customer service which was first rate -- it is just that their woodturning lathes were not up to the standards that made Delta famous -- sort of the opposite of your experience with OW, it seems.

    I would like to point out that OW has always given me first rate service with my requests. I don't own one of their lathes, but I have a few of their accessories.
     

Share This Page