3rd turned flower vase, opinions and critique anyone?

[Mark Hepburn]

This is another vase I made for LOML.

She loves flowers and I like giving them to her, so making vases is a fun way to build skill. This is a piece of wood that was given to me. I'm told that it is Spalted Red Maple Crotch Flower. Okay, that's a new one for me, but it was a nice piece of old wood and I like the rustic look (as does she). I filled cracks with marine epoxy and the interior is Enviro-Tex coated. Exterior is 3 coats poly, sanded between coats and then I knocked down the sheen a bit with 1200 grit. Polished with the Beall buffs.


So I know my photography is terrible but I'm working on it. It's nice day outside and the light was great so I just stuck it on the tailgate of my truck to take the 2nd photo.

In the meantime, I'd appreciate any comments on it? Personally, I think the little grooves at the top aren't properly spaced and a bit on the wide side. And I'm now wondering if it wouldn't have been better if I hadn't done the grooves at all and maybe had a little more of a flare at the top?

I haven't turned anything yet that I consider gallery-worthy, which is why I post here instead. If this is a protocol violation I can post there instead.

Thanks everyone for checking in.

Mark

 

[Jerry Bailey]

cool looking vase
I'm definitely not one experienced enough to critique, but personal preference for me:
make the grooves thinner/smaller, and to add symmetry, add another set of grooves either 1/3 to 1/2 up from bottom

best thing LOML's will always love anything you make for them, even when they get spoiled and think everything you're making is for them LOL.

 

[Richard Coers]

Looks way too much like a cylinder for my liking. I prefer to use the golden mean for proportion. I feel it's way too small of diameter for that height.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I can see the oilfield influence in the style.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I can see the oilfield influence in the style.

Looks like a pipeline pig, eh Bill?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Looks way too much like a cylinder for my liking. I prefer to use the golden mean for proportion. I feel it's way too small of diameter for that height.

Richard, I see what you mean. I wanted tall and slender but I gather you consider it ungainly due to the proportion? I'm open to your opinion, so would you have made it wider at the top with more of a sweeping curve? How would you approach the design?

I don't just want to be a good turner technically, but am warning to develop a good eye. Thanks!

 

[Mark Hepburn]

cool looking vase
I'm definitely not one experienced enough to critique, but personal preference for me:
make the grooves thinner/smaller, and to add symmetry, add another set of grooves either 1/3 to 1/2 up from bottom

best thing LOML's will always love anything you make for them, even when they get spoiled and think everything you're making is for them LOL.

Thanks Jerry. I agree about the grooves. Too fat. But yes, she loved it (well maybe the roses I out in it before giving it to her )

 

[Jerry Bailey]

If I might make a suggestion .......
I recently bought a book, The Art of Turned Bowls by Richard Raffan, and found it completely enlightening.......
It doesn't talk one bit about turning, what it does cover is style/shape/symmetry
What works, what doesn't, and why........ with detailed images showing the good, the bad, and the plain ugly
How to lay out a log for cutting into usable blanks, etc......
Everything BuT Turning itself
only $20 on Amazon, and highly recommend reading, I gained a lot of info from it, well worth the $20 invested .........

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Turned-Bo...d_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0B5KXN52GASX47Q248V8

 

[Bill Boehme]

If you would like to be able to play around with shapes, there is a piece of software called Woodturner Studio written by Jerry Bennett -- about $70. It has been around for a long time and is mainly used by segmenters, but it is also good just for doing some "what-if's". It is rather intuitive so the learning curve is minimal.
the thing that I use the most is the Bezier curve to create a smooth pleasing shape after deciding on the height, diameter of base, diameter of opening, and maximum width. In addition to the 2-D shape outline, it also gives a 3-D rendering that can be rotated to any orientation. The current version of the software dates back to about Windows 98 or maybe even 95, but it is fully function with my 64-bit Windows 7 machine. The Craft Supplies catalog says that it is not compatible with Windows 7 or 8, but I know that it works fine with Pro and Ultimate. Maybe the most basic version of Windows can't do compatibility mode. I don't know.

A friend who knows Jerry said that he is working on a new version. He promised to check with him to see if it is still in the works.

Here is a screenshot of the interface with a shape that took me about a minute to create.



Note: if you check the Wikipedia link above, I believe that the program uses a third order Bezier function in creating the shapes.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

If you would like to be able to play around with shapes, there is a piece of software called Woodturner Studio written by Jerry Bennett -- about $70. It has been around for a long time and is mainly used by segmenters, but it is also good just for doing some "what-if's". It is rather intuitive so the learning curve is minimal.
the thing that I use the most is the Bezier curve to create a smooth pleasing shape after deciding on the height, diameter of base, diameter of opening, and maximum width. In addition to the 2-D shape outline, it also gives a 3-D rendering that can be rotated to any orientation. The current version of the software dates back to about Windows 98 or maybe even 95, but it is fully function with my 64-bit Windows 7 machine. The Craft Supplies catalog says that it is not compatible with Windows 7 or 8, but I know that it works fine with Pro and Ultimate. Maybe the most basic version of Windows can't do compatibility mode. I don't know.

A friend who knows Jerry said that he is working on a new version. He promised to check with him to see if it is still in the works.

Here is a screenshot of the interface with a shape that took me about a minute to create.

View attachment 7422

Note: if you check the Wikipedia link above, I believe that the program uses a third order Bezier function in creating the shapes.

Thanks Bill. I'll check out that application. I'm running 7 pro. The interface is pretty simple looking. I use Corel a lot, which is primarily a vector illustration tool.

 

[Richard Coers]

Or, for the price of a piece of paper............ Fold a piece of paper in half and sketch some curves on it. Cheap french curves have really pleasant lines on them as an aid. Cut to the line, and unfold. Make yourself a Fibonacci gage. http://www.goldennumber.net/do-it-yourself/ Practice around the kitchen with the gage and find out what shapes and where they put details on bottles and vases. You would be surprised how accurately that gage works on stuff like Coca-Cola bottles, ketchup bottles, etc......Pleasing shapes aren't guess work, the Greeks found that out centuries ago. Of course there will be nay sayers to this and tell you to turn what looks good for you, but most beginners find that very difficult. This thing is a wonderful learning aid.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

If I might make a suggestion .......
I recently bought a book, The Art of Turned Bowls by Richard Raffan, and found it completely enlightening.......
It doesn't talk one bit about turning, what it does cover is style/shape/symmetry
What works, what doesn't, and why........ with detailed images showing the good, the bad, and the plain ugly
How to lay out a log for cutting into usable blanks, etc......
Everything BuT Turning itself
only $20 on Amazon, and highly recommend reading, I gained a lot of info from it, well worth the $20 invested .........

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Turned-Bo...d_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0B5KXN52GASX47Q248V8

Thanks Jerry,

I just ordered it. I can take a hint.

Looks like an excellent book.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Or, for the price of a piece of paper............ Fold a piece of paper in half and sketch some curves on it. Cheap french curves have really pleasant lines on them as an aid. Cut to the line, and unfold. Make yourself a Fibonacci gage. http://www.goldennumber.net/do-it-yourself/ Practice around the kitchen with the gage and find out what shapes and where they put details on bottles and vases. You would be surprised how accurately that gage works on stuff like Coca-Cola bottles, ketchup bottles, etc......Pleasing shapes aren't guess work, the Greeks found that out centuries ago. Of course there will be nay sayers to this and tell you to turn what looks good for you, but most beginners find that very difficult. This thing is a wonderful learning aid.

Richard, I just happen to have a piece of paper. And I'll take your advice (along with Jerry's).

Many thanks,

Mark

 

[hockenbery]

Paramount. Do you like the shape?

One thing that helped me refine shapes I was striving for was to place a finished form where I could look at it.
As I looked at it for a week or so I would envision how to improve the shape.
I studied a lot of pottery shapes. What did I like? what did I not like.
I looked at the Raffan profile shapes. I go to museums from time to time.

A cylindrical shape can be successful. The Greek column is still appreciated.
Many of the Greek columns bulged slightly.

When a form is just a little off from what our eye expects we tend to not like it but don't know why.

If you hang three same size pictures on a wall and stagger the heights 1/2" it will bother people
If you hang them with the heights staggered at half the height of the frame people accept it.
If you hang them level people,accept it.
It is that little bit off level that can be seen that bothers people.
Sort of a rule of thumb is don't go just a little bit off level make your intention known.

Have fun,
Al

 

[Jerry Bailey]

Not a hint, just a suggestion to help you with your design decisions
and FYI, I am very computer literate and well versed in 3D programs (Autodesk Maya, Autodesk Mudbox, etc)
But, I still use a plain set of french curves (any drafting or Office store) and graph paper to design/lay out all my shapes and curves
a pencil and eraser works wonders, and easier than replacing wood
like everyone above says, draw it out, stand back and have a look, change what you don't like
then go do the final piece on the lathe ......
and I think you'll enjoy the book, then pass it along to your grandson

Thanks Jerry,

I just ordered it. I can take a hint.

Looks like an excellent book.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Paramount. Do you like the shape?

One thing that helped me refine shapes I was striving for was to place a finished form where I could look at it.
As I looked at it for a week or so I would envision how to improve the shape.
I studied a lot of pottery shapes. What did I like? what did I not like.
I looked at the Raffan profile shapes. I go to museums from time to time.

A cylindrical shape can be successful. The Greek column is still appreciated.
Many of the Greek columns bulged slightly.

When a form is just a little off from what our eye expects we tend to not like it but don't know why.

If you hang three same size pictures on a wall and stagger the heights 1/2" it will bother people
If you hang them with the heights staggered at half the height of the frame people accept it.
If you hang them level people,accept it.
It is that little bit off level that can be seen that bothers people.
Sort of a rule of thumb is don't go just a little bit off level make your intention known.

Have fun,
Al

Al, thanks for the insights. Fact is, I don't like it as much as I could. I'm talking about form here, not the quality of the turning itself.

As an oil painter, I'd sometimes spend weeks looking at my work and deciding where to take it. I guess I have been so totally focused on turning technique that I forget to step, take a look and consider for at least a moment. I'm just standing there hogging off wood

I just have to get in the habit of stepping back and looking. Off the lathe.

And yes, make intentions known. Otherwise it's unsettling or can simply seem like a mistake.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Not a hint, just a suggestion to help you with your design decisions
and FYI, I am very computer literate and well versed in 3D programs (Autodesk Maya, Autodesk Mudbox, etc)
But, I still use a plain set of french curves (any drafting or Office store) and graph paper to design/lay out all my shapes and curves
a pencil and eraser works wonders, and easier than replacing wood
like everyone above says, draw it out, stand back and have a look, change what you don't like
then go do the final piece on the lathe ......
and I think you'll enjoy the book, then pass it along to your grandson

Thanks Jerry. I like paper. Back in the day I drew an awful lot. Was pretty good. Now I jus draw awfully.

But the curves are a good idea too, and easy to get, as you say.

And i do hope that grandson of mine wants all this stuff one day

 

[Bill Boehme]

The software that I mentioned really only become a useful time saver if you get into segmented turning, because it prints out numerous useful pages including a detailed cut list, in addition to the views shown in the screenshot. I bought it because I thought that I was going to try segmented turning. I still might someday. Since I already had it and wasn't using it for segmented turning, I figured I might as well use it for something. I was pleased to discover that it also was designed to help with creating solid hollow forms.I have printed out the drawings that gives diameters at incremental stations, making it convenient to transfer to a turning.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

vase weighted

I like a vase for flowers to be heavy at the bottom . This is both for aesthetics and safety. So I would suggest an inward curve in top 1/3 and the lines in the top of the bottom third, with the lower 2/3 having an outward bulge to suit the eye.
I do most of my turnings by inspiration from many sources and sometimes try to combine these shapes. Combining is fun , but usually not productive. The only measuring I do is on spindle reproduction.
I have not tried the Golden Mean on turnings as mostly I do this for fun and to prove the "I can do that" which we all use to get into more work than we thought it was going to be.
Not saying that I have it , but some people have a give for eyeball design sometimes by experience and sometime naturally. Due to my concepts I do not believe drawing is needed for all turnings.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

The software that I mentioned really only become a useful time saver if you get into segmented turning, because it prints out numerous useful pages including a detailed cut list, in addition to the views shown in the screenshot. I bought it because I thought that I was going to try segmented turning. I still might someday. Since I already had it and wasn't using it for segmented turning, I figured I might as well use it for something. I was pleased to discover that it also was designed to help with creating solid hollow forms.I have printed out the drawings that gives diameters at incremental stations, making it convenient to transfer to a turning.

Bill, I just went to Craft Supplies to buy the software but it won't run on Win 7. Are you running it on Win 7 in XP mode and if so, any issues? You're running Windows 7 aren't you?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Jerry Bailey]

If I can stick my nose in here too .............
since I know you're going to be doing segmented turning at some point, you might have a look at Woodturner Pro:
http://woodturnerpro.com/content/section/115-woodturner-pro.html

I bought the complete suite (3 programs),running Windows 7 Ultimate, and does the same as the software Bill is suggesting
and on the plus side, Lloyd Johnson (the creator) is an active member of Segmented Turners forum

just showing you alternatives

Bill, I just went to Craft Supplies to buy the software but it won't run on Win 7. Are you running it on Win 7 in XP mode and if so, any issues? You're running Windows 7 aren't you?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, I just went to Craft Supplies to buy the software but it won't run on Win 7. Are you running it on Win 7 in XP mode and if so, any issues? You're running Windows 7 aren't you?

Thanks,

Mark

As I mentioned previously in this thread, it works fine on Windows 7 Pro. I don't know why they state that since it runs just fine on my W7 Pro system. Maybe some users who weren't computer literate had issues installing it. The people at Craft Supplies aren't able to provide support so the easy solution is to just punt. As I mentioned, the author Jerry Bennett has been working on an updated version, but I do not have any information other than that. As far as I know, the only software that won't run on newer systems would be programs that require device drivers -- stuff like calibrators, graphic pens, scanners, cameras, memory card readers, audio cards, etc. There is compatibility mode and for extreme cases there is XP mode where you can have a fully functioning installation of XP running as a virtual machine in parallel with W7 (cost is FREE from Microsoft -- bless their pointy little heads). In this case, the only things that you would not be able to run would be if you had a program that required an x86 processor (32-bits) that doesn't have 64-bit drivers available. I don't know of any, but there probably is one or two that might fall in that bucket. Anyway, the screen shot that I showed is from my super-duper rodded and overclocked W7 belch-fire behemoth.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

As I mentioned previously in this thread, it works fine on Windows 7 Pro. I don't know why they state that since it runs just fine on my W7 Pro system. Maybe some users who weren't computer literate had issues installing it. The people at Craft Supplies aren't able to provide support so the easy solution is to just punt. As I mentioned, the author Jerry Bennett has been working on an updated version, but I do not have any information other than that. As far as I know, the only software that won't run on newer systems would be programs that require device drivers -- stuff like calibrators, graphic pens, scanners, cameras, memory card readers, audio cards, etc. There is compatibility mode and for extreme cases there is XP mode where you can have a fully functioning installation of XP running as a virtual machine in parallel with W7 (cost is FREE from Microsoft -- bless their pointy little heads). In this case, the only things that you would not be able to run would be if you had a program that required an x86 processor (32-bits) that doesn't have 64-bit drivers available. I don't know of any, but there probably is one or two that might fall in that bucket. Anyway, the screen shot that I showed is from my super-duper rodded and overclocked W7 belch-fire behemoth.

Hey Bill, I read your post again. Duh. I remember now. Thanks.

Yes, I saw the MS download but haven't needed it yet. So far most of my old 32bit apps are fine.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hey Mark, I just discovered one other thing about Woodturner Studio. When I clicked on Help, it would not open the help file, but there is a very easy fix. Beginning with Windows 7, Microsoft changed the help file support to no longer include the app that reads older style help files from pre-XP software. However, Microsoft has made fixing the problem very easy by giving the name of the file needed and providing a link to where it can be downloaded from the Microsoft website. Anyway, the file isn't very large and it only took a minute to download the file and install it. Now, I am able to open the help for Woodturner Studio just like I could when using XP.

BTW, I have not found it necessary to install XP mode, but if I were still using my old studio monitor, it would have been necessary because there is not a W7 driver for the integrated colorimeter that is needed to periodically create a new color profile. I really miss using that monitor because it is a professional grade wide gamut monitor that has largest color gamut that I have seen on a monitor. I bought a new 27 inch monitor that is supposed to be 99% AdobeRGB, but the old one was 114% AdobeRGB and had much better calibration hardware and software. Oh well, I'm through whining -- I sort of like the super wide screen even if the photo and video editing capability isn't as good.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Hey Mark, I just discovered one other thing about Woodturner Studio. When I clicked on Help, it would not open the help file, but there is a very easy fix. Beginning with Windows 7, Microsoft changed the help file support to no longer include the app that reads older style help files from pre-XP software. However, Microsoft has made fixing the problem very easy by giving the name of the file needed and providing a link to where it can be downloaded from the Microsoft website. Anyway, the file isn't very large and it only took a minute to download the file and install it. Now, I am able to open the help for Woodturner Studio just like I could when using XP.

BTW, I have not found it necessary to install XP mode, but if I were still using my old studio monitor, it would have been necessary because there is not a W7 driver for the integrated colorimeter that is needed to periodically create a new color profile. I really miss using that monitor because it is a professional grade wide gamut monitor that has largest color gamut that I have seen on a monitor. I bought a new 27 inch monitor that is supposed to be 99% AdobeRGB, but the old one was 114% AdobeRGB and had much better calibration hardware and software. Oh well, I'm through whining -- I sort of like the super wide screen even if the photo and video editing capability isn't as good.

Bill,

Thanks for the heads up. My copy will be arriving this coming week. Glad not to have to install XP mode. The only apps that I had that wouldn't run were an old HTML editor that I really liked. I'm just going to use the free Coffee Cup editor. Basic, gives previews and so on. I don't like the WYSWIG editors and detest the code that most office applications generate. I'm a dinosaur and like to just write my pages.

I don't have the calibration problems too much because I'm mostly using Pantone library color sets in CorelDraw for logo, etc. Although I do need to color calibrate this system. We just moved our office to Win7 and bought a bunch of Dell inegrated systems. NOTHING like your overclocked behemoth, but very fast quad core and the supported video refresh and resolution (and frame rates) are more than passable. I also have a ViewSonic as my 2nd display. But these are 23" not 27. I need to check what ViewSonic has in the way of calibration but haven't gotten around to it.

I (sort of) miss my old CRT with the hood and the color fidelity. I sort of gave up when the world moved to flat displays. Here I go, talking old computing days again...

Back to Woodturner Studio, I'm looking forward to working with it. Got some segmented projects in mind and a bunch of great scrap lumber to use.

Mark