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Bowl frustrations (vent)...

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Figured doing the 2nd turning on some bowls from several years ago would be a good way to get back into bowls. Wrong. First of all, am realizing that way back then, I turned bowls with no organized idea of how to do it, or how to progress from easiest to not-so-easy as suggested and described in this thread . Anyhow, doing turn-2 on the bowl below went pretty well, and then all of a sudden it didn't. The outside wasn't too hard, the inside went well a few passes through, and then I had a catch-and-dig about 3/16" below the rim and couldn't seem to get much done after that. Working from the rim down is tricky, of course, and I have the feeling that the shape I left the rim in after the first turning (when green) might be making it harder.
Also am thinking I might be swimming upstream on that interior with the bowl gouges I have (at my skill level). I have a Schweitzer 3/8" and a no-name 3/8", both with fairly swept-back wings. And a 1/2" gouge with very blunt traditional grind -- worked great going across the bottom, it's rather small and I'm not sure the grind is right, may be too blunt. [oh, and that severe-Vee gouge, not a chance of using that).

Have a much smaller bowl, very steep, that I might work on tomorrow. Most of the bowls I roughed out unsupervised and unmentored have steep sides and small bottoms.:rolleyes: So, good news is -- am getting together with an AAW mentor nearby next week, taking the 5 bowls, all my tools, he'll get me straightened out!

Bowl1.jpgBowl2.jpg

As you can see, I had a catch right on the rim also. Many of the scribed lines inside the bowl weren't from actually turning, but more from me playing with the gouge on the bowl while hand-turning, trying to firm up an approach.
 
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Bill Boehme

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That's a great plan. No need to needlessly beat yourself up and get increasingly frustrated. I can remember getting catches every few seconds and getting increasingly tense with each catch. I probably left permanent hand prints in the handle of the bowl gouge from gripping it so tightly. I invented some new bad words during this time.
 
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No death grip!

That's a great plan. No need to needlessly beat yourself up and get increasingly frustrated. I can remember getting catches every few seconds and getting increasingly tense with each catch. I probably left permanent hand prints in the handle of the bowl gouge from gripping it so tightly. I invented some new bad words during this time.

Yeah, nowadays, I quit before it gets that bad. Dave gave me the "death grip" lecture when I was at his place, and I know if I don't back off I'll either get hurt or get pi$$ed enough to lose the desire to turn. I have a certain amount of nerve compression that tips me toward a "firm" grip, so it can be tough to keep a light touch. Mr. Mentor will get me on the right track -- I've learned over the years that I can't teach myself everything!;)
 
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That bowl blank has plenty of potential. It's nicely balanced and has enough thickness for you to reshape to something more pleasing. All of us have a death grip when we're new at driving or turning. As you get more skillful, you start easing up, and then you get even more skillful. Working with a hands-on tutor is an outstanding next step. Then go out and turn about 50 of something. You've already got outstanding curiosity and analytical skills, you just need some repetition and muscle memory.
 
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Gracias!

That bowl blank has plenty of potential. It's nicely balanced and has enough thickness for you to reshape to something more pleasing. All of us have a death grip when we're new at driving or turning. As you get more skillful, you start easing up, and then you get even more skillful. Working with a hands-on tutor is an outstanding next step. Then go out and turn about 50 of something. You've already got outstanding curiosity and analytical skills, you just need some repetition and muscle memory.

Thanks much for the vote of confidence, Dean. I like the grain in that bowl (and didn't even plan it that way). I try to ease up even now, because I know (a) it's safer and (b) the gouge will cut better. Not sure I have enough wood to cut 50 of anything but saki cups:rolleyes: but around here you never know when a tree will fall your way!:cool: BTW, I see you're in Bozeman. I spent a few days there in April, 2009 when a big whoop-de-hoop Dressage trainer came over from Germany. It was beautiful, out in the country, but still cold! Hardy folk, you are.
 
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By Christmas???

A very good friend, and the only riding student I kept, really wants one of these French rolling pins. She is a fabulous cook, and deserves a nice one. So, how many tries might it take, and can I make one by Christmas?;) Picture is from American Woodturner, June issue I believe. I suspect hours of skew practice must precede the effort.

Rolling Pin French.jpg
 

Bill Boehme

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Learning to use the skew shouldn't take very long, but using it proficiently takes practice as you correctly assume. More important than tool usage is developing an eye for good form and making the rolling pin symmetrical are both very important. Interestingly enough it's the basic shapes that offer the greatest challenges to ones skills ... spheres, cones, ogee curves, fairing curves, coves, and French rolling pins because any variation from ideal are easy to notice.

Making a cardboard template is a good idea. Also, don't sell sandpaper short ... after all, it's a turning tool, too!
 

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Skew would be best a spindle gouge will work.

I would suggest at least one practice with firewood.
When you feel confident put on the curly many and go for it.

First step is to turn a cylinder. Get the tool rest parallel to the ways and keep your tool the same distance over the rest.
Mark the center and then 3 sets of two line equal distance from the center. Set the calipers to the diameter of each set and part in to that depth.
Connect the bottom of the groove with a pleasing curve with the skew.

Sanding with a sheets of sand paper folded in half lengthwise will even the surface.

If you see wide lines with a grit, these are indent not being sanded. Probably go to a lower grit.

Probably progress from 120, 220( with lathe running and then with the gRain with the lathe stopped) 320 ( with lathe running the with the grain) a coat of finish, 400 only in the grain direction, a coat of finish, 000 scotch brite, a coat of finish, repeat the last two until you decide to stop.

As you get better with the skew you will be able to start sanding with 220 or 320.

Amal
 
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a deep dark secret

Figured doing the 2nd turning on some bowls from several years ago would be a good way to get back into bowls. Wrong. First of all, am realizing that way back then, I turned bowls with no organized idea of how to do it, or how to progress from easiest to not-so-easy as suggested and described in this thread . Anyhow, doing turn-2 on the bowl below went pretty well, and then all of a sudden it didn't. The outside wasn't too hard, the inside went well a few passes through, and then I had a catch-and-dig about 3/16" below the rim and couldn't seem to get much done after that. Working from the rim down is tricky, of course, and I have the feeling that the shape I left the rim in after the first turning (when green) might be making it harder.
Also am thinking I might be swimming upstream on that interior with the bowl gouges I have (at my skill level). I have a Schweitzer 3/8" and a no-name 3/8", both with fairly swept-back wings. And a 1/2" gouge with very blunt traditional grind -- worked great going across the bottom, it's rather small and I'm not sure the grind is right, may be too blunt. [oh, and that severe-Vee gouge, not a chance of using that).

Have a much smaller bowl, very steep, that I might work on tomorrow. Most of the bowls I roughed out unsupervised and unmentored have steep sides and small bottoms.:rolleyes: So, good news is -- am getting together with an AAW mentor nearby next week, taking the 5 bowls, all my tools, he'll get me straightened out!

View attachment 8767View attachment 8768

As you can see, I had a catch right on the rim also. Many of the scribed lines inside the bowl weren't from actually turning, but more from me playing with the gouge on the bowl while hand-turning, trying to firm up an approach.




Jamie,

It is a deep dark secret that must never be shared, it isn't necessary to start an inside cut at the rim of the bowl! I let a gouge run back across the rim a few times when I first started turning and then got way too conscious of starting the cut. The more I thought about it the worse I got trying to start an inside pass. I turned three or four nice looking bowls when I first attempted to turn. Too thick bottoms and other things not directly related to turning caused them to crack. Then I went ten or twelve blanks in a row with every one of them failing to be finished into something resembling a bowl! Flaws in my blank selection, flaws in tool handling, getting paranoid about that evil rim run back! My back yard was filling up with flying pieces of blank, mostly those I hummed in annoyance.

Then I learned that making a quarter inch notch into the rim cutting straight from the inside gave me a shoulder to rest my bevel against and no more rim damage starting a cut. A year or more later I saw a video by a very accomplished turner that did this and commented it was the only way he started an inside the rim cut. No doubt he doesn't need to now but it takes seconds and insures no run back so why not? A moment's inattention can destroy the rim of a bowl, sometimes the whole bowl, when a little "cheat" can insure that it never happens.

Make a cut into the top of the wall of the bowl from the inside just like you were going to shorten the bowl a quarter inch but stopping at a depth that matches the amount you are going to remove on your next pass. Thin bowls are usually walked down an inch at a time and this makes starting the top inch just like starting any other step.

Hu
 

john lucas

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Well we have 2 questions going so I'll try to answer. When making the start cut on the inside it's very easy to have the gouge run across the lip of the bowl. This is because when starting a cut there isn't any bevel to ride. The trick is to start the cut very gently and slowly. I put my thumb of my left hand against the bevel to sort of guide it and to help keep it from running out of the cut. Now gently apply pressure to start the cut. Once the cut is started you actually have a shoulder for the bevel to ride against and then you can push the cut on down the bowl.
If I remember correctly you have a fairly wide spindle gouge in your collection of tools. That would be the perfect tool for the french rolling pin. Stick a cut up piece of 2x4 in your lathe and practice making a rolling pin or two using that tool. Since it's scrap wood you won't be worrying about how it comes out and you can just practice making long smooth cuts.
 
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Jamie,

[Snip]Make a cut into the top of the wall of the bowl from the inside just like you were going to shorten the bowl a quarter inch but stopping at a depth that matches the amount you are going to remove on your next pass. Thin bowls are usually walked down an inch at a time and this makes starting the top inch just like starting any other step.

Hu

Funny thing is, I don't remember having this particular problem before -- of course those were green wood and that could explain it. Thanks for the tip -- it's similar to one of the cheats I do with spindle turning, makes sense!
 
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Well we have 2 questions going so I'll try to answer. When making the start cut on the inside it's very easy to have the gouge run across the lip of the bowl. This is because when starting a cut there isn't any bevel to ride. The trick is to start the cut very gently and slowly. I put my thumb of my left hand against the bevel to sort of guide it and to help keep it from running out of the cut. Now gently apply pressure to start the cut. Once the cut is started you actually have a shoulder for the bevel to ride against and then you can push the cut on down the bowl.

Have to admit, when things aren't going super-well, I'm pretty nervous about putting my fingers right up close to the gouge -- not knowing where the gouge might go next. Kind of a Catch22 [pun, oops]. "This too shall pass." It's funny, I'll go up against a 1300-lb horse trying to push me around, and be nervous about that little piece of steel. I know that as I'm able to sense and predict, it'll get better.

If I remember correctly you have a fairly wide spindle gouge in your collection of tools. That would be the perfect tool for the french rolling pin. Stick a cut up piece of 2x4 in your lathe and practice making a rolling pin or two using that tool. Since it's scrap wood you won't be worrying about how it comes out and you can just practice making long smooth cuts.

Oh, I definitely plan on turning 3 or 4 with scrap before going for the final one in figured maple. You're quite optimistic to envision me turning it with the Rockwell spindle gouge. Well, perhaps if I put a good secondary bevel on it. But the skew seems much more manageable.:) Speaking of which, I was working on skews today and checked the bevel on that one. It was 25 degrees. Thinking I'll ease it up to 30.
 
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Skew would be best a spindle gouge will work.

I would suggest at least one practice with firewood.
When you feel confident put on the curly many and go for it.

First step is to turn a cylinder. Get the tool rest parallel to the ways and keep your tool the same distance over the rest.
Mark the center and then 3 sets of two line equal distance from the center. Set the calipers to the diameter of each set and part in to that depth.
Connect the bottom of the groove with a pleasing curve with the skew.

Sanding with a sheets of sand paper folded in half lengthwise will even the surface.

If you see wide lines with a grit, these are indent not being sanded. Probably go to a lower grit.

Probably progress from 120, 220( with lathe running and then with the gRain with the lathe stopped) 320 ( with lathe running the with the grain) a coat of finish, 400 only in the grain direction, a coat of finish, 000 scotch brite, a coat of finish, repeat the last two until you decide to stop.

As you get better with the skew you will be able to start sanding with 220 or 320.

Amal

Thanks for the details! Making those parting cuts for circumference is something I needed reminding about. I'm getting kinda jazzed about trying this! Takes the mind off of bowls.:p
 
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Jamie,
One, "Hold the sword (lathe tool, hammer, etc.) as you would a bird. Too tight and you kill it. Too loose and it flies away." Becoming comfortable with what you are doing is probably most important, and of course, more practice helps. Probably like holding the reins on your horses.

First, sharpen. Second, present the tool to the wood (how to stick a sharp piece of metal into spinning wood so it cuts clean and you don't get catches. Third, move with your body. I need to do a video about these 3 points, but no matter what type of turning you do, you need these 3 skills.

Next time you are coming down this way, plan to stop in. An hour or 3 in any mentor's shop can do amazing things.

There are as many styles of 'French' rolling pins as there are bakers. Some taper only on the ends, some taper from the center, some are straight, some have a slight curve.... Try to eye ball the tool rest to be parallel to your lathe ways when turning the cylinder. This really helps. You don't need to master the skew to make one, but they do help. So does a spindle roughing gouge, or even a bowl gouge, and you can always finish off with 80 grit. I frequently use one to make the surface dead flat.

robo hippy
 
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A very good friend, and the only riding student I kept, really wants one of these French rolling pins. She is a fabulous cook, and deserves a nice one. So, how many tries might it take, and can I make one by Christmas?;) Picture is from American Woodturner, June issue I believe. I suspect hours of skew practice must precede the effort.

You've received some good advice, and I hope this will be some more of it.

You can make a French rolling pin in an hour with the right wood and good skill on your skew. IMHO, it will take at least 3 pieces of firewood before you make a rolling pin you'd be willing to use, and at least 5 tries before you make one you'd be willing to give away. (It would have taken me 2-3 times that many) That's at least a few days of work, but with patience, persistence and a little hands-on instruction in using a skew, you should be able to get 'er done before Christmas.

My strong suggestion would be to get some 'easy' wood to practice with--cherry (or maybe alder or box elder) would be great. When you're comfortable making shearing cuts in both directions, try some inexpensive, NON-FIGURED maple. (Highly figured wood can be really challenging with a skew, to the point I often use a spindle gouge on it instead of my beloved skew. The skew can dig into squirrely grain and the spindle gouge doesn't seem to for mysterious reasons) If cost is no concern, you can start on a really special piece of wood at that point. If cost matters, turn more pins out of some BLM, madrone, padauk or other modestly priced good looking wood, but wait on your really pricey wood until you can knock off an acceptable rolling pin most of the time. (I think a padauk rolling pin is gorgeous--you don't have to use $30 of cocobolo to have it be special)

Now turn off the screen and get busy on your lathe.
 
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You've received some good advice, and I hope this will be some more of it.

You can make a French rolling pin in an hour with the right wood and good skill on your skew. IMHO, it will take at least 3 pieces of firewood before you make a rolling pin you'd be willing to use, and at least 5 tries before you make one you'd be willing to give away. (It would have taken me 2-3 times that many) That's at least a few days of work, but with patience, persistence and a little hands-on instruction in using a skew, you should be able to get 'er done before Christmas.

My strong suggestion would be to get some 'easy' wood to practice with--cherry (or maybe alder or box elder) would be great. When you're comfortable making shearing cuts in both directions, try some inexpensive, NON-FIGURED maple. (Highly figured wood can be really challenging with a skew, to the point I often use a spindle gouge on it instead of my beloved skew. The skew can dig into squirrely grain and the spindle gouge doesn't seem to for mysterious reasons) If cost is no concern, you can start on a really special piece of wood at that point. If cost matters, turn more pins out of some BLM, madrone, padauk or other modestly priced good looking wood, but wait on your really pricey wood until you can knock off an acceptable rolling pin most of the time. (I think a padauk rolling pin is gorgeous--you don't have to use $30 of cocobolo to have it be special)

Now turn off the screen and get busy on your lathe.

I practiced tapering a short distance yesterday, using that same piece of red oak, tool being an odd 45-degree spindle gouge that's traditional grind, followed up by the skew to beautify the surface. Was quite pleased at the end! I have several pieces of cherry, and a huge (HUGE) madrone plank (10' long, 4" thick and a foot wide) that I can cut blanks out of (first needing hubby to chainsaw it to a liftable piece of lumber.:rolleyes:) I supposed needing to use completely dry wood makes it a bit tougher. For sure, the big challenge will be the ambidexterity factor, not my strong-suit! But am practicing.

Tomorrow is "meet-with-a-mentor" day, so I have to figure out what tools and pieces of wood (bowls) to take. Maybe a bowl blank too.
 
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Jamie,
One, "Hold the sword (lathe tool, hammer, etc.) as you would a bird. Too tight and you kill it. Too loose and it flies away." Becoming comfortable with what you are doing is probably most important, and of course, more practice helps. Probably like holding the reins on your horses.

First, sharpen. Second, present the tool to the wood (how to stick a sharp piece of metal into spinning wood so it cuts clean and you don't get catches. Third, move with your body. I need to do a video about these 3 points, but no matter what type of turning you do, you need these 3 skills.

Next time you are coming down this way, plan to stop in. An hour or 3 in any mentor's shop can do amazing things.

There are as many styles of 'French' rolling pins as there are bakers. Some taper only on the ends, some taper from the center, some are straight, some have a slight curve.... Try to eye ball the tool rest to be parallel to your lathe ways when turning the cylinder. This really helps. You don't need to master the skew to make one, but they do help. So does a spindle roughing gouge, or even a bowl gouge, and you can always finish off with 80 grit. I frequently use one to make the surface dead flat.

robo hippy

Reed, I suspect if we could research that "holding a bird" analogy thoroughly, we might find it originated hundreds of years ago with a Dressage master of old. Between holding birds and balancing wine glasses, my students were very relaxed by the end of their lessons.:D The other saying that has helped (and I saw here, somewhere) was something about the wood not "feeling" the bevel. Presenting the tool is probably what is getting me in this situation. I have put the bowls aside, wanting to cleanse my mind of angst and poor mechanics, so tomorrow's mentor has less to hinder our progress. As far as rolling-pin style goes, I need to get a feel for what my friend would prefer, but the simpler the better at this point.

Am headed to Palm Desert (CA) at the end of the month. If I don't melt, I might make it to OR for a cousin-visit inbetween hubby's hunting trips. If so, I'll give you a heads-up and go through Eugene on the way!
 
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I heard that quote in an old Hollywood movie about Cerano De Bergerac, a famous swordsman and ladies man...

robo hippy
 
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this is what happens when I post at five AM

I heard that quote in an old Hollywood movie about Cerano De Bergerac, a famous swordsman and ladies man...

robo hippy




OK, it is five AM and I haven't slept any yet so I have to ask, was the quote in reference to swords or ladies in the movie?

hu
 
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... needing hubby to chainsaw it ...

I taught my wife to use the chainsaw, which turned out to be a mistake on my part. That's because now it's a footrace to grab the saw whenever something needs to be cut. She usually wins! I've tried to teach her how to clean and sharpen it, but she's nice enough to let me do that part. :)

Thanks for sharing your frustration - I'm sure I'm not the only other one reading and applying this same advice with you.
 
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Hu,
Good thing I didn't have a mouth full of coffee when I read that post.... I think the sword skills were at least in part due to the lady skills. I think most of the ladies like a bit of variety...

robo hippy
 
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Chainsaws

I taught my wife to use the chainsaw, which turned out to be a mistake on my part. That's because now it's a footrace to grab the saw whenever something needs to be cut. She usually wins! I've tried to teach her how to clean and sharpen it, but she's nice enough to let me do that part. :)

Thanks for sharing your frustration - I'm sure I'm not the only other one reading and applying this same advice with you.

If Nick's saw was anything smaller than a 24" Husky, we'd have the same problem.:) That, and the fact that the darned thing seems to break every single firewood season, and I can't take that kind of frustration! I'm campaigning for a 40-volt saw for those smallish turning-related tasks. But even then, though I'd be hankering to do the sawing, not sure my back could handle it. Admirable of your wife to be so generous (about the cleaning/sharpening).;)
 
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