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Bread bowl, issues with tear out and chatter. First large bowl.

Mark Hepburn

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Hi Everyone.

I made this bowl for my daughter. Like me, she is a serious baker and so this is for her to let bread rise in. Bread bowls are often deep but don't have to be, as long as the dough is covered as it ferments. The rings are to indicate when the product is approximately 3/4 or fully proofed. Anyway,enough about the baking part...

The rings are also my attempt to mimic Odie's very fine detail lines. Meh, they're not so great but they are functional for the purpose.

I've got a first coat of pure tung oil on it and some of the spottiness is the oil and not the machining. Bread bowls, like a baker's couche, are typically not washed (other than with a bit of oil and salt and an occasional flour dusting) so it will never see any moisture to speak of.

You can see from the photos that I'm dealing with tearout issues I can't seem to resolve. Tools are absolutely sharp, no question about it.

I decided that, since it's a working piece and will see some pretty heavy use that it is okay for a first effort and my daughter will be pleased. However, I am not satisfied with this and would appreciate some thoughts on dealing with it.

Advice most welcome :)

bowl-01.jpgbowl-02.jpgbowl-03.jpg
 

hockenbery

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Mark,

You are getting your tear out at the. Back side of the end grain.
Always the spot where tear out shows up first.

Part of it is caused because a small fraction of a proper cut takes place in the vertical direction while 90%+ takes place in the horizontal direction as intended.
As the wood comes around any vertical cut is going straight into the Endgrain tearing the fibers as there is no supporting fiber behind them.
A scraper flat on the rest will be going into the end grain and tear the fibers. A light light scrape will be better than a more aggressive one.
A non bevel riding cut will tear the fibers.

If you have a vacuum chuck or a "dough"nut chuck you can get a clean cut with a spindle gouge.

I find recesses more trouble than useful. I usually employ a glue block before using a recess.

I turn my pieces with a tenon mount. Then when jamb chucked all the turning can be do done with bevel riding cuts.
And cutting a cove recess in the foot automatically cuts across the grain with a supporting fiber behind each fiber cut.
Cleaning up a recess with jamb chuck prevents a bevel riding cut since the center is where the tool needs to be.

This is also a hard place to sand but that is what you must do.

Have fun,
Al
 
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odie

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Mark......

I'm assuming you are referencing the inside of the foot on the second photo with inset photo.

Al has some suggestions for you to work on.

It's almost impossible to know what the source of your tearout problems are, without actually being there with you. How is the dough bowl mounted to the lathe when you are doing this cut? Al hinted at this, and could effect the integrity of the cut. My first thought is sharpness of the tool. I know you said it was sharp, but this is something that many turners believe, when it could be sharp-er......and sharp-er always, without fail, cuts bett-er! Again, there is no way to know if the degree of sharpness you have is a factor in the tearout you are getting, without being there and observing the quality of the cut, with different techniques of sharpening applied to the same piece of wood.

It looks like at the point where you're getting the tearout, you're negotiating a concave curve. Because of this, it occurred to me that you might improve the cut by rolling the gouge through the cut. Once again, it would be hard for me to explain this roll through the cut, without actually being there to show you.

ooc
 
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Inside the bowl, it looks more like chatter-caused tear-out than just grain direction tear-out. I’d bet it was vocally complaining a bit when you were cutting in this area.

Two solutions: cut to thickness in steps of an inch or two at most while leaving the bulk of the rough-out in place; use a bowl steady directly behind the cut to stabilize the tool pressure. You can alternatively resort to using your free hand to support the cut and dampen the flexing. Very light cuts and shear scrapes are absolutely necessary to sidestep the issue.
 
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Steve Worcester

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I don't suggest putting any grooves or features inside a food use bowl, especially with dough, since it gets into the recesses and can make it hard to clean and allow bad stuff to grow and ruin the good yeasty product.

But, to get a cleaner cut, before the last cuts, sharpen the gouge, slow down the speed and ride the bevel. It takes practice, and more practice and then if it's a thinner wall, more practice and maybe some more.

If you don't like it, throw it out and turn another (the practice part).
 

Bill Boehme

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It looks like a combination of both tearout and also chatter. Like Odie said, you may believe that your tools are sharp, but just possibly, they may not be. There may also be some tool techniques that need honing as well. I think that your class with David Ellsworth later this month will help iron out a lot of the difficulties that you are encountering.

One other thing that Owen mentioned is the way to reduce chatter by leaving supporting wood ahead of the cut as long as possible. Woodturning is full of jargon which often isn't self explanatory so what I just said may not make sense. I'll try to make an attempt to explain, but seeing it done is a lot more meaningful that reading a few words (or even a lot of words).

I think that Al pointed out that the shape you have -- relatively flat bottom and quick upturn to a vertical sidewall will present a big challenge in getting a smooth transition for several reasons. See the first sketch where you can see that on two ends of the bowl, the vertical part is end grain while the bottom is essentially side grain.

curve1.jpg

Also because of the tight radius of the curve, making the transition with a bowl gouge will be difficult without causing heel bruising (another woodturning buzzword).

Green wood isn't the only wood that moves. It just moves more than dry wood. All wood has some degree of internal stress that are in equilibrium -- until some of that wood is removed. The wood will return to equilibrium ... by moving. When it moves it warps. When it warps, it is no longer round. When it is no longer round, it talks to you -- you might think that it is just chattering, but it is trying to tell you something. Usually, that something is, "I will get even with you for abusing me".

Often chatter occurs because we turn the bowl thin enough to warp slightly and then the tool pressure leads to bouncing and we have a snowballing effect of things progressively getting worse. We look at the bad surface finish and decide to go over it again to smooth things up. This next refinement, the wood is even thinner and warping even more so we can expect an even worse surface.

We can greatly reduce the chatter by turning the wood in stages as shown in the second clear-as-mud illustration.

curve2.jpg

Instead of shaping the entire inside of the bowl at once, work on it in steps comparable to how you hollow a vase. In the crude illustration we refine the shape and thickness of the part labeled "1" while not removing any wood closer to the center because we need that to add stiffness. Once we are satisfied with the shape and thickness of step 1, we move on to step 2 and do the same thing. Once you go to step 2, NEVER go back to "touch up zone 1, because it is no longer perfectly round and it WILL chatter. Progress in this same fashion until the entire inside surface has been turned (and never going back for "just one more" touch up). By the time that you have reached the center, the rim will very likely have significant warp -- maybe not visible to the eye, but it will be "visible" to your bowl gouge.

If this doesn't make a lick of sense, that's OK. I didn't fully appreciate it until getting a helping hand.
 
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Mark Hepburn

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Mark,

You are getting your tear out at the. Back side of the end grain.
Always the spot where tear out shows up first.

Part of it is caused because a small fraction of a proper cut takes place in the vertical direction while 90%+ takes place in the horizontal direction as intended.
As the wood comes around any vertical cut is going straight into the Endgrain tearing the fibers as there is no supporting fiber behind them.
A scraper flat on the rest will be going into the end grain and tear the fibers. A light light scrape will be better than a more aggressive one.
A non bevel riding cut will tear the fibers.

If you have a vacuum chuck or a "dough"nut chuck you can get a clean cut with a spindle gouge.

I find recesses more trouble than useful. I usually employ a glue block before using a recess.

I turn my pieces with a tenon mount. Then when jamb chucked all the turning can be do done with bevel riding cuts.
And cutting a cove recess in the foot automatically cuts across the grain with a supporting fiber behind each fiber cut.
Cleaning up a recess with jamb chuck prevents a bevel riding cut since the center is where the tool needs to be.

This is also a hard place to sand but that is what you must do.

Have fun,
Al

Al, thanks for such detail. I'm starting to understand I believe:

Non-bevel riding cut I'm sure is a big part of the problem. This shape is unfamiliar territory and I had some uncertainty about positioning the gouge. By the way, it's the 1/2" Ellsworth PM bowl gouge and I sharpened it on the CBN wheel using his jig before starting. I looked at the tool and really believe that it is nice and sharp. I also hone periodically with a 600 diamond hone.

I turned the outside and cut the recess for a chuck. You prefer to cut a tenon instead? So after turning the outside you turn the inside, then at that point use the donut or vacuum chuck to finish the base? I do have a vacuum chuck and reverse chuck adaptor.

You mention using a glue block, which I recently found pretty easy myself. And I see what you mean about cleaning up the recess since I can't put the too, in the proper position.

Sanding? Hard? I am a master sander :D. I think sometimes I sand more than anything else. So back at it, but my question is, should I reverse the lathe to sand here? Or should I sand uphill to knock back the tearing?

I really appreciate your time and your many, many thoughtful posts. They've been a real help.
 

Mark Hepburn

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Do Your "sharp" tools have continuous convex edges? Flat is ok. any convex area or a dip makes 2 proud cutting spots on either side of the com cavity. These often make catchers.

Al. Curve is nice and continuous across the edge. Flat. No double bevels or dips. I wear trifocals so I got out a lighted magnifier to check it. A practice I may continue going forward.
 

Mark Hepburn

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Mark......

I'm assuming you are referencing the inside of the foot on the second photo with inset photo.

Al has some suggestions for you to work on.

It's almost impossible to know what the source of your tearout problems are, without actually being there with you. How is the dough bowl mounted to the lathe when you are doing this cut? Al hinted at this, and could effect the integrity of the cut. My first thought is sharpness of the tool. I know you said it was sharp, but this is something that many turners believe, when it could be sharp-er......and sharp-er always, without fail, cuts bett-er! Again, there is no way to know if the degree of sharpness you have is a factor in the tearout you are getting, without being there and observing the quality of the cut, with different techniques of sharpening applied to the same piece of wood.

It looks like at the point where you're getting the tearout, you're negotiating a concave curve. Because of this, it occurred to me that you might improve the cut by rolling the gouge through the cut. Once again, it would be hard for me to explain this roll through the cut, without actually being there to show you.

ooc

Hey Odie.

Yes, Al's post was very helpful indeed.

The points of tearout are concave curves. Do you think you could try to explain the rolling through the cut, or point me to a video? I've been googling a bit but no luck.

But I didn't spend tons of time... I have a client meeting in the AM and been prepping most of the afternoon.

As to sharpness, I really looked hard at the tools and they are indeed sharp. One ing I forgot in my reply to Al was that I did use a round nose scraper flat on the rest to clean up some rough spots and that appears,to be where the inner bowl tearout is.

Thank, as always!
 

Mark Hepburn

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Inside the bowl, it looks more like chatter-caused tear-out than just grain direction tear-out. I’d bet it was vocally complaining a bit when you were cutting in this area.

Two solutions: cut to thickness in steps of an inch or two at most while leaving the bulk of the rough-out in place; use a bowl steady directly behind the cut to stabilize the tool pressure. You can alternatively resort to using your free hand to support the cut and dampen the flexing. Very light cuts and shear scrapes are absolutely necessary to sidestep the issue.

Thanks Owen. You may be psychic. :D

I did indeed hear a good bit of chatter when using a scraper inside the bowl. Then went back in with the gouge .

Cutting to thickness in steps, do you mean from edge to center, leaving the bulk. Part of my problem with the shear scrapes is that I get catches. I think that's probably a good sign that I'm taking too aggressive a cut?
 

Mark Hepburn

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I don't suggest putting any grooves or features inside a food use bowl, especially with dough, since it gets into the recesses and can make it hard to clean and allow bad stuff to grow and ruin the good yeasty product.

But, to get a cleaner cut, before the last cuts, sharpen the gouge, slow down the speed and ride the bevel. It takes practice, and more practice and then if it's a thinner wall, more practice and maybe some more.

If you don't like it, throw it out and turn another (the practice part).

Hi Steve. You have a point about the grooves and hadn't thought about that. But I'm planning on telling her to use salt as an abrasive with flour to clean.

I should have sharpened again and really didn't think if it. I will add that to my normal practice going forward. Thanks for that too. I was turning at 370 rpm. In your opinion what would be an optimal speed?
 

Mark Hepburn

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When you take your class with David he will teach you how to turn a bowl.

Sharp tool, tool on the tool rest, bevel rubbing ever so slightly, engage the cutting edge.

It is almost magic.

Al

I'm looking forward to that magic rubbing off on me. :). I try to be a good student.
 

Mark Hepburn

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It looks like a combination of both tearout and also chatter. Like Odie said, you may believe that your tools are sharp, but just possibly, they may not be. There may also be some tool techniques that need honing as well. I think that your class with David Ellsworth later this month will help iron out a lot of the difficulties that you are encountering.

One other thing that Owen mentioned is the way to reduce chatter by leaving supporting wood ahead of the cut as long as possible. Woodturning is full of jargon which often isn't self explanatory so what I just said may not make sense. I'll try to make an attempt to explain, but seeing it done is a lot more meaningful that reading a few words (or even a lot of words).

I think that Al pointed out that the shape you have -- relatively flat bottom and quick upturn to a vertical sidewall will present a big challenge in getting a smooth transition for several reasons. See the first sketch where you can see that on two ends of the bowl, the vertical part is end grain while the bottom is essentially side grain.

View attachment 7418

Also because of the tight radius of the curve, making the transition with a bowl gouge will be difficult without causing heel bruising (another woodturning buzzword).

Green wood isn't the only wood that moves. It just moves more than dry wood. All wood has some degree of internal stress that are in equilibrium -- until some of that wood is removed. The wood will return to equilibrium ... by moving. When it moves it warps. When it warps, it is no longer round. When it is no longer round, it talks to you -- you might think that it is just chattering, but it is trying to tell you something. Usually, that something is, "I will get even with you for abusing me".

Often chatter occurs because we turn the bowl thin enough to warp slightly and then the tool pressure leads to bouncing and we have a snowballing effect of things progressively getting worse. We look at the bad surface finish and decide to go over it again to smooth things up. This next refinement, the wood is even thinner and warping even more so we can expect an even worse surface.

We can greatly reduce the chatter by turning the wood in stages as shown in the second clear-as-mud illustration.

View attachment 7417

Instead of shaping the entire inside of the bowl at once, work on it in steps comparable to how you hollow a vase. In the crude illustration we refine the shape and thickness of the part labeled "1" while not removing any wood closer to the center because we need that to add stiffness. Once we are satisfied with the shape and thickness of step 1, we move on to step 2 and do the same thing. Once you go to step 2, NEVER go back to "touch up zone 1, because it is no longer perfectly round and it WILL chatter. Progress in this same fashion until the entire inside surface has been turned (and never going back for "just one more" touch up). By the time that you have reached the center, the rim will very likely have significant warp -- maybe not visible to the eye, but it will be "visible" to your bowl gouge.

If this doesn't make a lick of sense, that's OK. I didn't fully appreciate it until getting a helping hand.

Bill. It makes perfect sense to me. And your "crude" drawings illustrated to me exactly what both you and Owen said about working in steps from edge to center.

In fact, I worked from the center out! And the chatter as I removed more and more increased, leading me to get some catches because the bowl was deforming as I cut. I know tha sound of a thin wall yelling at me :D

I understand the step process as you guys describe it and am going to do another bowl of similar shale to practice.

Really, thanks Bill.
 

Mark Hepburn

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Gents, I just want to thank you all for your help. Seriously, I never dreamed when joining this forum that there would be people willing to spend this kind of time and attention to impart their knowledge so generously.

In the month or so since joining, I have benefitted tremendously from everyone here. Thanks again.
 
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Gerald, well, you are learning. One safety point I always stress with scrapers is to never use then any where near the rim on the inside of a bowl after you have hollowed it out. "There was this strange screeching and howling, then my bowl blew up" has been uttered, along with some other choice words many times before. With no mass to support it, the walls will vibrate. Shear scrapes are a great way to clean up tool marks. I prefer scrapers. On the inside of a bowl, I roll then to at least 45 degrees, and do very gentle pull cuts up towards the rim. Some use gouges, but I have this thing with scrapers.... Make sure to cut only with the lower half of the tool, just like when using a skew. I prefer a swept back to the left side (also called inside scraper) for this cut, and a round nose will work also. Fresh burr. Do take the inside down in steps or stages like others have said. Getting through the transition is the difficult part, and you have noticed that the inside is way more difficult than the outside. You can't see as well, and the rim of the bowl, tool rest, and ways of the lathe can get in the way. I have several clips up on You Tube as well if you type in robo hippy, including one where I turn a bowl with nothing but scrapers.

I also would not leave any detail/grooves in the bottom of the bowl. Places for gunk to accumulate. Table salt and a wedge of lemon or lime make an excellent disinfectant and emulsifier for cleaning purposes.

If you are headed to Phoenix for the symposium, look me up in the vendor area.

robo hippy
 

Mark Hepburn

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Mark, Thanks for the idea on the bread bowl. I make sourdough bread every 5 days and use plastic. The wife cannot stand that I do not wash it every time.

Gerald,

Yeah I get that. :) I have an old oblong bowl I use. It's never seen water that I know of.

Not to start a bread making thread here, but do you have a starter you feed for your sourdough?
 

Mark Hepburn

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Gerald, well, you are learning. One safety point I always stress with scrapers is to never use then any where near the rim on the inside of a bowl after you have hollowed it out. "There was this strange screeching and howling, then my bowl blew up" has been uttered, along with some other choice words many times before. With no mass to support it, the walls will vibrate. Shear scrapes are a great way to clean up tool marks. I prefer scrapers. On the inside of a bowl, I roll then to at least 45 degrees, and do very gentle pull cuts up towards the rim. Some use gouges, but I have this thing with scrapers.... Make sure to cut only with the lower half of the tool, just like when using a skew. I prefer a swept back to the left side (also called inside scraper) for this cut, and a round nose will work also. Fresh burr. Do take the inside down in steps or stages like others have said. Getting through the transition is the difficult part, and you have noticed that the inside is way more difficult than the outside. You can't see as well, and the rim of the bowl, tool rest, and ways of the lathe can get in the way. I have several clips up on You Tube as well if you type in robo hippy, including one where I turn a bowl with nothing but scrapers.

I also would not leave any detail/grooves in the bottom of the bowl. Places for gunk to accumulate. Table salt and a wedge of lemon or lime make an excellent disinfectant and emulsifier for cleaning purposes.

If you are headed to Phoenix for the symposium, look me up in the vendor area.

robo hippy

Robo hippy, I'm going to watch your videos tonight. Thanks.

Yes, I heard that screeching and felt the bowl chatter so backed off and tried lighter cuts.
I have a Tracy Owens round nose scraper it's a huge hulking round of steel and I used it for the inside. I used it flat on the rest, not rolled down.. Do you mean like a negative rake scraper. Sort of that angle?

Yes, the inside is more challenging. Learned that. Now I'll learn to adapt and improve :)

Hoping I can go to Phoenix but I may not be able with work and all.

By the way, salt and lemon is good advice. They create an inhospitable environment for bacterial growth, and won't have any noticeable effect on bread.

Mark
 

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Mark Good advice so far. As was noted your tearout on the rim is probably due to chatter from the wood vibrating. I generally turn these areas first before hollowing the rest of the platter or bowl. The extra mass of the wood reduces or eliminates the chatter. I have also done shear scraping on the inside of the rim by slowing the wood down and supporting the outside of the vessel with my hand. That can be dangerous however. I had probably done 50 or more bowls with that technique before one blew up and cut my hand so it's not necessarily the best idea. turn with the wood thick and you won't have to do that.
The rolling cut they are talking about I think, is where you roll the flute, usually up, to try and keep the bevel rubbing through a transition point like you have with the rim bending sharply toward the bottom. I'm assuming you have the flute rolled over to about 45 degrees or we'll call it maybe 1:30 or 2 oclock on the clock face. As you approach the sharp curve at the bottom of the lip you rotate the flute more up to about 1 oclock and lower the handle and try to keep the bevel in contact with the wood. On transitions less than yours it works quite succeseful. On your bowl it might be a little iffy whether or not you could keep the bevel rubbing. On something like that I usually use a shear scraping technique with a round nose scraper coming from the inside out toward the lip. Mostly nowdays I use the Hunter #4 carbide tipped tool for shear scraping a bad area like that.
Not sure what tool you used to cut the foot detail on the inside but obviously it was more of a scraping cut rather than a bevel rubbing cut. The best thing for that is to find a better way to reverse turn the bowl so you can use a bowl gouge or spindle gouge to cut the bottom of the bowl.
Here is a video on shear scraping I did which I hope will help. I'll also include a link to an article I did for our club on reverse turning bowls.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/7bf500f3fd5...EC0DC707F1FE36FCB&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oeiVQLeOd4
 
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A negative rake scraper is a different tool, but still used to scrape. Since it takes a much lighter cut, it might work better than a standard scraper. A scraping cut is the scraper flat on the tool rest, and the cutting being done at a 90 degree angle to the way the wood is spinning. It can be done with gouges or scrapers. The bevel does not rub. A shear cut is with the cutting edge at a 45 or higher angle to the spinning wood, and I think I explain that in the clip on the fluteless gouge that Doug Thompson makes. The higher the shear angle, the cleaner the cut, well most of the time any way.

John has a lot of good video clips up also. A couple of good ones from Ian 'Robbo' Robinson on general safety.

robo hippy
 
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starter

Gerald,

Yeah I get that. :) I have an old oblong bowl I use. It's never seen water that I know of.

Not to start a bread making thread here, but do you have a starter you feed for your sourdough?

Yes I do. We lost it once in Kansas City, but had a SS Class member who gave us a fresh start. We have been doing this for over 25 years. Makes great sandwich and hamburger buns.
 

Mark Hepburn

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Yes I do. We lost it once in Kansas City, but had a SS Class member who gave us a fresh start. We have been doing this for over 25 years. Makes great sandwich and hamburger buns.

And toast. :)
 

Steve Worcester

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Hi Steve. You have a point about the grooves and hadn't thought about that. But I'm planning on telling her to use salt as an abrasive with flour to clean.

I should have sharpened again and really didn't think if it. I will add that to my normal practice going forward. Thanks for that too. I was turning at 370 rpm. In your opinion what would be an optimal speed?

There isn't a magic speed. It is first a speed where you feel safe and comfortable. I would probably be about double that but it would also depend on what size the bowl is, how balanced and how stable the lathe is.
 

Mark Hepburn

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There isn't a magic speed. It is first a speed where you feel safe and comfortable. I would probably be about double that but it would also depend on what size the bowl is, how balanced and how stable the lathe is.

Thanks Steve. I watched robo hippy's videos a couple nights ago and he's about 6x. :)

Lathe is plenty stable but I am more comfortable at lower speeds for now. Bowl diameter is about 13".
 

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Mark,

Speed is not as important as tool presentation.
I show beginning students how the gouge cuts by holding the tool in one hand and rotating the bowl with the other hand maybe 3 RPMS.

At faster speed things happen faster both good and bad.

With the advent of variable speed lathes you never have to pick a speed just turn the dial until you are comfortable.

With the old step pulley constant speed lathes you had to pick a turning speed by belt position.
With variable speed the belts set a speed range.

Don't use a speed you are uncomfortable with.

I turn faster than some folks and slower than some others.
I never check the speed just the vibration of the lathe.

Al
 
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Mark Hepburn

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Mark,

Speed is not as important as tool presentation.
I show beginning students how the gouge cuts by holding the tool in one hand and rotating the bowl with the other hand maybe 3 RPMS.

At faster speed things happen faster both good and bad.

With the advent of variable speed lathes you never have to pick a speed just turn the dial until you are comfortable.

With the old step pulley constant speed lathes you had to pick a turning speed by belt position.
With variable speed the belts set a speed range.

Don't use a speed you are uncomfortable with.

I turn faster than some folks and slower than some others.
I never check the speed just the vibration of the lathe.

Al

Al, I appreciate your advice. I don't care one way or another how fast I'm turning, but I have been amazed by some of the turners on you tube videos. I guess once one has full command of the tools and process, and tool presentation is second nature, then speed follows.

Training young people to use a French knife is similar in some aspects; they want to cut quickly but what they need is to first learn safety, precision and consistency. Speed comes naturally with practice, right?
 

hockenbery

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Mark, As you gain in skill and confidence you will likely turn somewhat faster. Your teachers may suggest a faster speed for some operations. Too slow and the tools don't cut efficiently. Too fast and you may not be able to shape the curves as,you want them. Al
 

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Mark, As you gain in skill and confidence you will likely turn somewhat faster. Your teachers may suggest a faster speed for some operations. Too slow and the tools don't cut efficiently. Too fast and you may not be able to shape the curves as,you want them. Al

Point taken Al. In fact, I was actually turning slower but it seemed "bumpy" so I upped it a bit.

By the way, I saw you on the schedule for the AAW symposium. I'm hoping that (somehow) I can swing the time and funds to go, but on the heels of the class next week, I don't know. If I can, I'd like to see your demo and maybe say hello (and say thanks too).

Mark
 
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the way to reduce chatter by leaving supporting wood ahead of the cut as long as possible. Woodturning is full of jargon which often isn't self explanatory so what I just said may not make sense.

You do an excellent job of explaining. I think leaving supporting wood ahead of the cut makes so much more sense than "cutting downhill" which I have rarely found to be understandable by new turners.
 
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"When sphincter tightening exceeds chuck tightening, you have a problem." This is from Pat's Fan on Wood Net forums. Comfort level is far more important than speed, though speed does make things go smoother if you are comfortable. The big 3 in turning:

1) sharp tools: if your tools aren't sharp, it doesn't make and difference what you do with them, you will not get a clean cut, and that means more time sanding.

2) presenting the tool to the wood: This is how you stick a sharp piece of metal into spinning wood so it cuts cleanly, and you are not ripping things off the lathe

3) moving with the tools: This means moving more with your body than your arms, so you get smooth lines rather than lots of tool bumps and humps.

robo hippy
 

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It's been ten years, but it seems like yesterday. Does everybody retain such vivid memories of their "white knuckle days" when first learning to turn? It was a strange mixture of anxiety and determination. I watched videos and read books. I got plenty of spectacular catches -- there may still be some of those bowls in low earth orbit trajectories. And, more than a few times I uttered eternal curses upon the lathe, wood, and tools that were severe enough to scorch the paint on the walls. Meanwhile, with rigor mortis stiffness, I continued to mechanically position the tool and myself just like Del Stubbs and Alan Lacer said that I ought to. With a lot of grain ripping use of tools and extra-coarse grit sandpaper, I cranked out some uglier-than-sin dog-food style bowls.

Then I joined a club and with some friendly help, things suddenly clicked and turning became fun. It is possible to learn without mentoring, but is also possible to never learn without mentoring -- I have seen examples of both.
 

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Point taken Al. In fact, I was actually turning slower but it seemed "bumpy" so I upped it a bit. By the way, I saw you on the schedule for the AAW symposium. I'm hoping that (somehow) I can swing the time and funds to go, but on the heels of the class next week, I don't know. If I can, I'd like to see your demo and maybe say hello (and say thanks too). Mark

If you can attend a symposium is it is a great event. Steve and Reed will be in the trade show. Quite a few other forum participants will be there too.
It is always an honor to be part of the program. We teach one of the youth classes this year which is always special.

You will be overwhelmed but that is a good thing.

There are a lot of excellent demonstrations that would fit your level of expertise and inspire you.

Al
 
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If you can make the symposium, come by my booth and stop in. You are welcome to make a mess with me. I will be next to Doug Thompson.

robo hippy
 

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It's been ten years, but it seems like yesterday. Does everybody retain such vivid memories of their "white knuckle days" when first learning to turn? It was a strange mixture of anxiety and determination. I watched videos and read books. I got plenty of spectacular catches -- there may still be some of those bowls in low earth orbit trajectories. And, more than a few times I uttered eternal curses upon the lathe, wood, and tools that were severe enough to scorch the paint on the walls. Meanwhile, with rigor mortis stiffness, I continued to mechanically position the tool and myself just like Del Stubbs and Alan Lacer said that I ought to. With a lot of grain ripping use of tools and extra-coarse grit sandpaper, I cranked out some uglier-than-sin dog-food style bowls.

Then I joined a club and with some friendly help, things suddenly clicked and turning became fun. It is possible to learn without mentoring, but is also possible to never learn without mentoring -- I have seen examples of both.

I just bought my first big lathe, had a 12"x36 or so log on there and called my wife out to watch the magic as I increased the speed and it flew over my head and whacked the cabinets, fortunately not killing me.

Speed in woodturning isn't the answer for me.
Love Jimmie Clewes and his ability (one of our sponsored turners) but his approach to high speed and teaching it to beginners gives me the willies. Turn slow saves a bunch in life.
But I too have been fortunate of the aforementioned mentoring and they have shortened the learning curve dramatically. You can watch videos all day long but not learn near as much as someone there telling you what you aren't doing right and making tool corrections live.
 

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You do an excellent job of explaining. I think leaving supporting wood ahead of the cut makes so much more sense than "cutting downhill" which I have rarely found to be understandable by new turners.

Amen to that, Mike. :)
 

Mark Hepburn

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If you can make the symposium, come by my booth and stop in. You are welcome to make a mess with me. I will be next to Doug Thompson.

robo hippy

Thank robo hippy, I'm really hoping I can make it. And I just bought another gouge from Doug Thompson. Whoops, there goes my airfare!!!

Kidding. :)
 

Mark Hepburn

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I just bought my first big lathe, had a 12"x36 or so log on there and called my wife out to watch the magic as I increased the speed and it flew over my head and whacked the cabinets, fortunately not killing me.

Speed in woodturning isn't the answer for me.
Love Jimmie Clewes and his ability (one of our sponsored turners) but his approach to high speed and teaching it to beginners gives me the willies. Turn slow saves a bunch in life.
But I too have been fortunate of the aforementioned mentoring and they have shortened the learning curve dramatically. You can watch videos all day long but not learn near as much as someone there telling you what you aren't doing right and making tool corrections live.

Steve, I completely agree. Videos can take one only so far. In fact, I would argue that they're likely more effective for turners with more experience because they at least have some contextual frame of reference.
Speed isn't the answer for me either. I'm sort of pokey in my shop, puttering and never really in a hurry. It's therapeutic for me so I find that I'm always surprised at the time.


But I gotta try that flying log thing ( or Bills' bowls in Orbit)! Again, kidding.
 
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flying log thing . . .

Steve, I completely agree. Videos can take one only so far. In fact, I would argue that they're likely more effective for turners with more experience because they at least have some contextual frame of reference.
Speed isn't the answer for me either. I'm sort of pokey in my shop, puttering and never really in a hurry. It's therapeutic for me so I find that I'm always surprised at the time.


But I gotta try that flying log thing ( or Bills' bowls in Orbit)! Again, kidding.


Mark,

Timing is everything! When you get back from your trip you should be ready for a challenge. I can fix you up with fifty pounds or so of pear root section. There were ten major roots coming off of it in an almost perfect star. The roots are elliptical, three or four times taller than they are wide. Spent half a day digging around the roots so I could put a junk chain on the saw and cut the roots out. I cut one with an ax, one was enough! I need a junk bar to go with the junk chain; I made pretty good progress in that direction today too. Bars hate dirt almost as much as chains do.

Anywho, when you make it back up here there will be that big piece of pear to take home. Can't turn it on my lathe and with a little luck it has too much figure to butcher it to get it small and light enough to go on my lathe. About twenty, maybe twenty-four inches, the VB36 should be just the ticket for the wood. Slapped anchorseal on it when it came out the ground, gonna put a second coat on in the morning just for luck.

Hu
 
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