Camera for hollowing system

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Emiliano Achaval, Aug 13, 2017.

  1. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    I good friend of mine from the club just got his Trent Bosch visualizer system. I think I can use an old Ipad that I have and get a camera for it. In Amazon they have wifi endoscopes, very cheap... Problem is I can't find a video to see what kind of angle you get with those. Looks perfect, but they only show people looking in the drain, under the couch etc... Has anybody use one of those? Has anybody use a camera that works with an Ipad. I'm thinking also I can use my existing web cams attached to my lap top. I believe the Ipad might be more convenient... Yes, I know I can call Trent and buy it, but I like to experiment and I already have the Lyle Jamieson system... Thanks in advance, Aloha
     
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  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    The iPad already has a couple cameras ... a low res selfie camera and the high res camera on the back. If the high resolution camera could be removed from the case and tethered on a length of cable then there would be no questions about interfacing.
     
  3. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    Well, somehow strapping a 9,5 in Ipad to the hollowing system does not sound practical. Lol. Removing the camera is out of the question... The iPad is to be use as a monitor... Just bought the wifi endoscope. There is a good YouTube video about it. A club demo. Guy uses the endoscope. Also purchased the Grafix clear plastic to out over the iPad screen to draw the cutter. I will post pictures next week!
     
  4. Bill Blasic

    Bill Blasic

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    Emiliano I tried the endoscope camera and it worked fine. My problem was that I had a laptop and a wire from the camera added to my turning and had to watch the laptop instead of the piece. I personally prefer the laser dot as I am looking at the piece. The tools I use to hollow complete require 3 setups (or changes if you prefer). Changing the tool and the laser position takes a few seconds. I found no advantage to the camera and that it just added more chances of something bad happening.
     
  5. john lucas

    john lucas

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    I won't be home until late tonight but I'll look at what I bought. I simply bought a camera and a separate back up camera monitor. It unfortunately has the backup lines on the monitor but it's easy to ignore. One of our club members just built a system and put even less money into it than I have. I'll try and get with him and get info.
     
  6. William Rogers

    William Rogers

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    Emiliano, I have the Simon Hope system with the camera and the laser. The reason I have both is that with the camera you are watching the screen and not the work. I intend to use the laser until I get down close and then switch to the camera. Just playing around I did this piece to see how thin I could turn. 5-1/2" tall and 4" at the widest point. Weighs 2.1 oz. and wall thickness is 0.030". I really like the camera for finishing the piece. I don't think I can turn that thin with the laser and eventually I want to do piercing. I know I don't need that thin for piercing, but need uniform thickness and I believe the camera is better to provide that.
    IMG_1011.JPG
     
  7. Michael Nathal

    Michael Nathal

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    I use a Jamieson system but after my laser died I switched to an endoscope camera. I prefer to stand at the tailstock end rather than the side of the lathe. So I am looking down the tool shaft, at the piece, with my laptop mounted so I nod my head up and down slightly as i shift my view from the laptop to the piece. I prefer the camera because I found it easier to interpret compared to the laser, and it is much more vibration resistant. The laser could bounce around a lot. Plus the battery life of the laser was poor, and I don't think the vibrations helped that either. When buying an endoscope make sure it specifies the focal length "4cm - infinite" The first one I bought, a few years ago, did not have that generous of a focal length, it was fine for distances of 4-5 inches but if the camera was ~12 inches from cutter the bit was out of focus. Still usable but not as nice as the newer one I bought. .
     
  8. Steve Nix

    Steve Nix

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    I converted my Monster system with lazer to a camera and monitor.. $28 for the camera, about one inch square x 1/8" thin. Came with mounting bracket, RCA connectors and power supply. Add a $88 19" flat screen tv and now have a nice monitoring system that I can still use with lazer as needed.
     
  9. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    Thank you All for the help!! I already have the laser on my system, so I ordered the endoscope after watching a demo on you tube... I can see it’s going to be a little awkward not looking at the piece, like driving a car and looking thru a camera...
     
  10. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    I could position the Ipad on the headstock, in line with the work... Hmmm...
     
  11. William Rogers

    William Rogers

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    The Simon Hope system has a smaller screen maybe 5X7. At first I was thinking I needed a larger screen, but after using I like the small screen size. I added a magnetic base and put it on the headstock. I think your iPad will be an ideal size for mounting on the headstock.
     
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  12. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    I love it when a plan comes together!! Thank you for the help.
     
  13. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    So far, I only have a laser and it works OK, but when turning a large diameter hollowform with the laser dot vibrating, it becomes less reliable in judging wall thickness than using it on a small hollowform.

    The idea of a video camera sounds attractive, but I am trying to understand the factors that have influenced some to go back to using a laser. The part that confuses me is the idea of working while looking at a monitor vs. looking at the actual piece being turned. I can understand in the case of a bowl or open top vase where we are able to see the cutter and see the wood being removed from the interior. But if I were turning a hollowform with a small opening where I'm turning in the blind, it seems like looking at a laser dot on the exterior is just as abstract as looking at a real-time video that depicts the position of the cutter with respect to a live picture of the hollowform. I have seen demonstrations of both commercial systems and I didn't see anything to not like about either one. I'm wondering if any of the following could be relevant issues:
    • The placement or orientation of the screen not being convenient to view while at the same time use the hollowing tool.
    • The existence an appreciable time lag.
    • The loss of hand/eye coordination due to scale factor in the video image that doesn't match the real world.
    • Length of adaptation time.
    • No perceived benefit.
    Any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
     
  14. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    These are some very interesting points you bring up. I have decided that I want to try and see why so many people are using the camera. So far my only expense is the $29 endoscope camera and the clear plastic $8.95. The iPad is a few years old, and has a scratch on the screen, but, works... I will be able to give you my input next week... I'm also a welder aficionado, this week i will make the laser holder stronger, I have hit it with my lathe light, knocking out the alignment, going right thru the side in a few seconds...
     
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  15. Bill Blasic

    Bill Blasic

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    After reading more of this I will say this. I have three laser systems from Monster. I had asked Randy (when he was still alive) to make me a longer support arm for the laser which he did. The support arms I have re all longer than 12" and no matter how deep I'm turning now I have no vibration of the laser dot. As far as batteries for these lasers they have been in the lasers for way over 5 years and are still working fine (2 triple A batteries each). I have heard that Todd has closed up shop on the monster and if true is a shame.
     
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  16. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I think the Bosch visualizer is terrific and have been using it for about 3 years.
    Demoed with it at the Florida Symposium in 2016.

    I used the laser since 2000.

    It takes a tiny bit longer to draw a tool when you change them. ( I have a trick for this)

    For me looking at the monitor is no big deal. I can't see anything inside the form anyway.

    Also I hollow mostly face grain forms wider than tall which I used a mirror to see the laser on the bottom side.
    The visulizer shows the bottom wall nicely.

    The laser needs to be reset when I cut on different parts of the tool. The Visualizer shows the whole tool edge.
    Whenever the tool is out of the form I can see where the visualizer is set on the tool I have to put my thumb under the laser to see verify that it has not shifted. They all can shift a bit once in a while.

    With the laser there are always a few inaccuracies/uncertainties.
    Setting the laser to be directly opposite the cut is never exact. Then once you cut a little bit in a tight curve it changes so my habit was to continue to cut more sort of calculated guess that everything is ok.....
    With the visualizer I know where I'm cutting.

    The trick:
    A tip I use On lager forms where is switch from small cutter to scraper quite a few times I draw both on the screen
    One on each side of center. Then I just line the camera up on the tool I switch to. Seems to work quite well.
    Just need to remember which one to look at.
     
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  17. William Rogers

    William Rogers

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    Emiliano, it is much better than a car backup camera. I didn't even think that until you mentioned it.

    Bill Boehme, I haven't used the camera system or laser systemvery much to date, but don't really see any of the concerns you mentioned. Benefits for me was to see the finished thickness better and always knowing the position of the cutter. Just seems easier to set being new to this.

    Bill Blasic, I think you are right about Monster no longer being available. Before the Symposium I was able to try out the system of a fellow woodworker. I actually put thing in their cart. I eventually ended up with the Simon Hope system. I was going to order their 1" bar and some other cutters, but their web page is gone. The Monster system I used he removed the batteries from the laser and hooked up a power supply. I bought a power supply, but the Hope laser doesn't need it. If you send me an address I'll send it to you if you want for free. You will need to check to see if it matches your laser power requirements.
     
  18. Dennis J Gooding

    Dennis J Gooding

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    I built a system patterned after the one described by Alan Zenreich in his youtube presentation at
    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pidLwThKHSw
    and have been happy with the result. It was inexpensive and I find it easy to use. The following figures show how I adapted it to an existing shop-built laser system. I can use either system interchangeably with only a readjustment of the guide bar. The second picture shows details of how the tiny camera was mounted. The camera can be moved up or down depending on the size of turning. A slip-on cover protects the camera when in use.

    IMG_5324p.jpg

    IMG_5326p.jpg


    One of the awkward features of this simple system as presented by Alan is the need to sketch onto the monitor screen an outline around the image of the cutting tool that marks the desired cutting limits. This needs to be done every time there is a change in the orientation of the cutting tool relative to the boring bar. A more efficient approach occurred to me, one that I now use. Instead of drawing directly on the monitor screen each time, I produce the desired cutting outline on a small piece of clear plastic sheet and stick it with a piece of masking tape to the monitor screen at the position needed. Since most of my hollowing is done using 3/18-in metal lathe bits, I took this a step further. I used the MS Paint program to draw some images of bits of this size surrounded by cutting limit circles of various sizes. I then printed these images full size on clear acetate sheets using my inkjet printer. The following figure shows an example. I cut individual images from the sheet and protect the ink with a piece of transparent (not translucent) tape.
    cuttermaskp.jpg
     
  19. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    So glad I asked about the camera here. Great thread about hallowing too!!
     
  20. Brent Wells

    Brent Wells

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    I also have a monster hollowing system. The laser for the monster rig seems to fail fairly quick. I was researching camera systems on you tube and there was a video done by the central flordia woodturners I believe. It was a good video but he made reference to an article in www.morewoodturningmagazine.com It is an online magazine only. I think it is around $20 a year and I purchased the August 2015 issue which has the "Frugal Camera Hollowing Rig" article. It has great detail and step by step pictures of how to build one. It also has a link to ebay to get everything you need to build, I purchased and everything but a monitor was around $50 for all cables, jacks, connecters, camera etc. I just recently purchased and got delivery so I have not had a chance to build yet. If you are not tech savy like myself I recommend checking out magazine. It will not let me post any of the article here, I find value in the articles every month it is a decent read fyi so subscription was worth it for me.
     
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