CBN grinding wheels?

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by bob sesti, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. bob sesti

    bob sesti

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Long Island,N.Y.
  2. Mike Stephens

    Mike Stephens

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    40
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    Bob I got the 180 grit wheel it kicks arse. I also bought a skew and handle from Dave. His tools are very nice.

    The wheel is worth every penny. No trueing or dressing the wheel. What could be better then that.

    Get 1, now.
     
  3. TJ Hamilton

    TJ Hamilton

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Douglasville, GA
    There are a couple of posts on Saw Mill Creek on this subject and they are all very positive.

    All the best, Tom, in Douglasville, thinking a CBN is in the future.
     
  4. Jerry Simpson

    Jerry Simpson

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Fulton, MD
    Bob,

    Upon Harvey Ghesser's recommendation, I bought the CBN wheels and am very happy with them. Here are a couple of reasons why I like them: The standard wheels are narrower, so with the CBN wheels you will probably not go off the wheel; I don't have to worry about cleaning or truing them; they are the same size all the time because they don't wear down, and no dust. Harvey put his wheels on a Baldor grinder, so, I just couldn't resist buying one as well. (Harvey, if you are reading this, I am sending you a bill.) hope this helps.
     
  5. Brian McInturff

    Brian McInturff

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    303
    And no heat generated. The tool stays cool. The wheel runs true therefore never out of balance. They are on a steel body so they will never explode on you.
    It's like getting a smart phone. Once you get them you wonder how you ever turned without them.
     
  6. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    With the way these CBN wheels are designed to be used on gouge and skew tools, isn't it true that what we're basically discussing is an alternate method of metal removal......and, not sharpening at all?

    To clarify that remark, I don't understand how an 80gt, or even the 180gt CBN wheel can produce a sharper edge than my Norton SG 80gt wheel backed up by a 600gt hand held diamond hone.

    Can we assume the D-way CBN wheel is not intended to produce a final edge on a gouge, but the intent is to prepare the edge for hand honing?.......in which case, we are indeed discussing metal removal, and not sharpening. If this is the case, then it would be difficult to convince me to buy one of these CBN wheels, because the final degree of sharpness is obtained by the same method either way.........

    ooc
     
  7. Nate Davey

    Nate Davey

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Albuquerque,NM
    Love mine, best money I've spend for sharpening and, to Odie's point, I don't hand hone. As it is a steel wheel, it won't wear away like a matrix wheel, hence no need to dress it, no matrix dust flying around. For my purposes it will last as long as I turn.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  8. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    Fair enough......It would then appear that you are satisfied with not having the sharpest edges on your tools that is possible to obtain.......

    ooc
     
  9. Brian McInturff

    Brian McInturff

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    303
    Oldie,
    Do you freehand your honing or have a fixed device that holds both the tool and the hone. Unless you do then I guess you prefer rounding over your edge? Point being you couldn't hold the hone perfectly.

    I occasionally hone but not all the time. I think my edge is better now with the CBN than previously with the friable wheels.
     
  10. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    I'd have to say it's semi-rigid, but not completely a "fixed" method. The tool is braced on a block of wood that's attached to the bench, and my thigh. The diamond hone is inserted into a "carrier" that is easier to control than simply grasping the steel plate by hand.

    It does take some practice, and I suggest anyone contemplating hand honing invest the time and effort to consistently achieve the desired result.

    Your remark about "rounding over" can only be made by someone who hasn't invested the time and effort to acquire the skills of honing, and to know what to do with the residual. The degree of sharpness possible is well worth the secondary bevel. It never gets problematic because it never gets very wide. When that happens, it only takes a moment to return to the grinder and shorten it up. In effect, that super-sharp edge never touches the grinder at all......unless, and until it needs to be reshaped. There are countless skilled turners that have done their homework and invested the time and energy to learn this very basic skill to it's best potential.

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  11. n7bsn

    n7bsn

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    864
    Location:
    wetter washington
    Home Page:
    Bob
    First let me say that I know Dave well, in fact I was over at his place on Thursday.
    As others have noted, the wheels are balanced, run true and do not heat the metal when grinding.
    As for honing, Dave actually recommends it and also sells a CBN hone, although a diamond hone would work as well.
    Due to the clearance these wheels require, most grinders will need their shrouds removed.
    I should also note that the wheels have a "break-in" period. They will cut different when new, and correctly after some use. Me, I would waste off some cheap HSS and get the wheels ready for real use quickly.

    Why Dave sells these wheels is the M42 tools he sells, these tools are actually harder then you can get M2 or M4 tools, which means these wheel needed to get his tools to get scary sharp.
     
  12. Paul M. Kaplowitz

    Paul M. Kaplowitz

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    161
    CBN wheels

    I bought two wheels from D-Way and will never go back to grit wheels. As far as honing is concerned, when I was a student of David Ellsworth in 1993, I asked about honing. He said he used his tools right off the grinder. Good enough for me. Are you using your gouges to shave with or for cutting wood?
     
  13. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    1993?

    Well, obviously Ellsworth wasn't using a CBN wheel, and come to think of it, it's extremely unlikely he was using a diamond hone either. If I'm not mistaken, even the latest technology of friable wheels were not available in 1993, either. (It took me until around 2003 +/- before I began using the SG wheels, myself!) If he's still not honing, maybe he should perform a simple experiment and take one piece of difficult cutting wood and give it a go.......with both honed and unhoned gouges. I'd be willing to bet most turners with any time under their belts, have taken a few minutes to do this test. When I did, the difference between the quality of the cut was obvious.

    Ellsworth is a very good turner, but I have an opinion about the god-like status he seems to have with many student turners. These people should open their eyes and see the quality of turnings other turners are producing......and, in this turner's opinion, Ellsworth isn't "the best", or anywhere near the top. (Oh man, now I'll probably really catch hxll from the worshipers!) It is also my opinion that if you could survey the best of the best turners......they ALL would be honing their tools to perfection! :D

    ooc
     
  14. Brian McInturff

    Brian McInturff

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    303
    Oldie,
    My comment about rounding over was meant in jest because of the implied sarcasm in your post prior. I seem to remember reading that a honed edge is only at it's sharpest the first 3 seconds you touch it to a piece of material.
    I see no reason for a honed edge except for a finish cut and even then it depends on how the finish cut to wood is responding. I do hone my skew a lot.
    And obviously some tools cut better without honing. How would that scraper work if you honed that bur off of it?

    I've yet to hear one testimony where someone said they weren't happier with their CBN wheels. I do hear people that don't own them try and justify why their way is better...
     
  15. Brian McInturff

    Brian McInturff

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    303
    WOW!! On the Ellsworth comment. Totally not needed.

    I have some time under my belt albeit as a hobbyist but honing for anything but a finish cut is a waste and most of "The Best of the Best" including Ellsworth would tell you that.

    Why anyone would want a friable wheel over a non friable wheel is beyond me. I understand the whole price thing but in the long run it's safer and will save you money over time.
     
  16. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    Hello Brian.......

    By the same token, the edge you get by not honing will begin to dull immediately, as well.......so, what's the point? To my thinking, as long as the tool will begin to dull immediately, I'll begin at a higher level of sharpness.....right from the git-go!

    So, if I get your reasoning correctly, you'll use a tool that is less sharp, because a sharper tool will eventually dull to an equally less state of sharp? Somehow that reasoning escapes me, but you do what you will.

    I do not hone scrapers......so, we agree on that! :cool2: The burr is the cutting edge, and that cutting edge is produced by the grinding wheel itself.

    It is a very good point that I don't use a CBN wheel......so, you are absolutely correct that all my reasoning is a product of mental deduction, and not actual experience. Over the years, there are plenty of products I haven't bought, but have made a decision of it's value to my turning based solely on my perception. I must admit there have been times where one product, or another, I eventually purchased. I've also got gadgets and things that were a total waste of my time and money........(I'll bet a few here can relate to that!) Maybe I'm wrong about the CBN wheels......and, maybe I'm not wrong.......we'll see how well it plays out with those who have the money, and the inclination. One thing is for sure.......some of those who have money invested in any of these products will not be inclined to identify, or acknowledge any defects or drawbacks, even if it's glaringly obvious........this is just human nature, I suppose! :D

    For me, it goes against experience to think that 180gt will produce a better edge than 600gt.......

    One thing I'd like to point out, is that I continually re-hone my sharpened edges. I don't suspect actual cutting time is more than a minute or two in total, before I pull out the diamond hone and re-hone the edge. Every time this is done, it requires the burr to be taken off within the flute, as well. Most new turners just hate sharpening, and will spend insane amounts of money on gadgets and super hard steels (blush!)........, but, in the end, they will ultimately wait way too long before they'll re-sharpen. (Because their mind-set prevents a timely return to the grinder!) The best advice they can get, is to learn how to sharpen and hone......and practice will make it quick, easy, and without giving it much thought!

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  17. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    See what I mean?

    Yes, I think the comment was absolutely needed.

    ooc
     
  18. Brian McInturff

    Brian McInturff

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    303
    No. He's "earned" the respect by his peers. I'm just not sure an amateur of your stature has earned the right to call him out. Absolutely nothing gained or brought to the conversation by that statement. I really didn't expect such a comment from you in an open forum.
     
  19. odie

    odie

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    Deep in the woods
    Hit a nerve, did I! :D

    OK....I've had my say, and am giving you the last word, because it's obvious that you are one of those I said would give me "hxll"! We'll let the others think whatever they want to think.

    ooc
     
  20. n7bsn

    n7bsn

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    864
    Location:
    wetter washington
    Home Page:
    Em, that's actually not giving him the last word, but I can tell you that my opinion of you slipped a bit.

    As for honing, I suspect I can find as many pro's that don't as do. In fact, last summer at the Olympia Symposium, Mike Mahoney stated, that he prefers the more ragged edge of a 80 grit stone to the finer edge of one of Dave's CBN wheels. This was after he had re-sharpened his tools with one of Dave's CBN wheels (the Olympia club is one of two that Dave belongs to, and only CBN wheels were available at the Symposium)

    Me, I hone, as I'm convinced it improves the cut, but I respect the opinions of those that don't as they have different experiences then I do.
     

Share This Page