Chuck Comparison

[john lucas]

Chuck comparisons

I am now the proud owner of another chuck. I know do I really need another one. If you have to ask then you aren't really a serious woodturner. I have a Vicmarc 100, The Mit-E Bulldog chuck from ChucksPlus, and the Grizzly H6267. I thought you might enjoy a comparison. Granted I have only turned one thing on the Mit-e but my experience with the other chucks tell me a lot about the pros and cons of this one.
All 3 chucks are approximately the same with the Mit-E and Grizzly being copies of the Vicmarc. The jaws and inserts can be swapped between them and the chuck bodies are the same size. The differences are interesting.
All 3 have back dust covers that have index marks. The Mit-e has really small holes on the edge marks which would make them hard to engage, but then I don't of anybody who uses these. I use my index wheel instead of the chuck index holes. The Grizzly dust cover doesn't keep out dust as well as the Vicmarc. Only time will tell on the Mit-e but all the tolerances seem to be as good as the Vicmarc so my bet would be that it will do a pretty good job.
Vicmarc has a setscrew to lock the insert onto the chuck body. The Mit-e does not but has large flats to tighten it up instead of the holes drilled in the Vicmarc and Grizzly. I have deformed the holes in both inserts over the years. This will never happen with the Mit-e. The Mit-e insert screws in cleaner than the others which is just another indication of the care that went into machining this chuck.
The Vicmar and Grizzly use screw that have a 3mm allen which can be stripped fairly easily. The Mit-e used 4mm. Only time will tell if they strip out but the larger size should help prevent this.
The Mit-e has gold jaws that are said to be corrosion resistant. I have owned the other chucks long enough to tell you that the Vicmarc does not rust as easily as the Grizzly.
The Mit-e has jaw numbers stamped on the body of the chuck as well as the ends of the scroll jaws. That makes it quick and easy to place the jaws back in the same slot. The Jaws on the Mit-e have the same “slop†as the Vicmarc jaws. The Grizzly is much looser. This hasn't seemed to affect the actual holding power of the chuck but it gives me an indication of the quality control that goes intop the chucks.
The pin that keeps you from over extending the jaws is a Roll pin on the vicmarc. Very hard to remove if you want to dissassemble the chuck for cleaning. The Grizzly pin was so cheap I bent it sideways somehow over the years so it's completely useless for stopping the jaws and you can't get it out either. The Mit-e uses a set screw. Easy to remove for cleaning and they are usually hardened and hard to break.
I also ordered some 4†jaws for the Mit-e. They are dovetails but came with tiny bead or raised rings on the outside. Don't know if this holds better than smooth jaws or not. It would only be useful in expansion mode of course.
All 3 chucks use 8 mm hex wrenches as the key and all tighten with a clockwise turn.

I guess I might as well put down cost but that is only accurate today 7/19/13. Obviously prices change. Currently the Vicmarc with 1 ¼ insert is $239, The Mit-e $179 and the Grizzly $119.
Left to right Vicmarc, Mit-e, Grizzlyl

 

[MichaelMouse]

The raised rings on the outside won't do a thing that wedging action won't do better, especially in a shallow mortise. It would work on the same principle as other serrated jaws, substituting multiple ridges chewing wood for a single large wedge capturing it. Would leave behind a mushed mess instead of a smooth mortise at minimum depth.

Looks like they're using the same anti-corrosion coating on the Mite as the gold deck screws. Your Vick and others are normally phosphate. They get rusty, hit 'em with a bit of naval jelly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_jelly Don't clean off the black phosphate!

 

[john lucas]

Another new Vicmarc clone

Bestwoodtools is now selling a Vicmarc clone. I believe Vic said they were $149 but can't remember if that was with the insert. It's better quality than the Grizzly. Probably the same quality as the Chucks Plus near as I can tell but doesn't come with the rust preventative coating. Haven't used one yet but they do seem to be built very well. Personally I would buy this over the Grizzly.

 

[Joe Greiner]

I replaced the Allen screws on my Grizzly with SS Philips CSK. Much less fiddly, and no strength issues found yet.

 

[John Lawson]

Bestwoodtools is now selling a Vicmarc clone. I believe Vic said they were $149 but can't remember if that was with the insert. ....

I happen to have picked up their flyer at SWAT, and it says the $149 price included the insert.

 

[Sergio Villa]

So there is a chuck with an adaptor/insert without a way to secure it to the chuck? this in my opinion is a serious problem since chucks can get stuck to the spindle shoulder and that might lead to unscrewing the chuck from the insert if one uses the allen wrench in the chuck to remove it (recommended by Vicmarc i do not know the others). The little tommy bar is supposed to be used to tighten the adaptor and is not very effective in removing the chuck.
I have a Strongold and a Oneway with tommy bars that have the best connection between the insert and the chuck and one Vicmarc with a direct insert: absolutely outstanding and a Vicmarc 120. After tightening very strongly the insert with the set screw I drilled a little nick in the chuck to give the set screw more grip. Now is also a superior chuck.

 

[Sergio Villa]

I forgot to mention in the previous post that Woodworkers Emporium also sells a Vicmarc 120 with direct insert for metric and 11/4. Did not know this at the time I bought mine!

 

[John Teichert]

So there is a chuck with an adaptor/insert without a way to secure it to the chuck? this in my opinion is a serious problem since chucks can get stuck to the spindle shoulder and that might lead to unscrewing the chuck from the insert.........

Sergio, I won't buy another WoodRiver Chuck for this very reason. I once slowed down my project using the hand wheel on my headstock, and the chuck spun off the adapter. I now use that chuck only on smaller projects.

PSI's tommy bar chuck has the threads cut into the body of the chuck, so no adapter at all. Oneway Talon and the Hurricane chuck uses the tapered adapter that screws into the chuck body. My Nova SN2 uses a set screw.

Out of all of them, the Oneway method seems to be the most secure, but a bit of a pain if you go back and forth between lathes with different spindle threads. The setscrew of the Nova seems adaquate, but must be used with the small plug to prevent the threads from being damaged on the adapter and then perhaps damaging the chuck body thread when changing adapters.

 

[MichaelMouse]

The setscrew of the Nova seems adaquate, but must be used with the small plug to prevent the threads from being damaged on the adapter and then perhaps damaging the chuck body thread when changing adapters.

Not necessarily. I find brass grubscrews hold as well and are easier to find for locking on the spindle and locking the insert.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... After tightening very strongly the insert with the set screw I drilled a little nick in the chuck to give the set screw more grip. Now is also a superior chuck.

I am having a hard time following your description. You mentioned setscrews, but I am wondering if you are actually referring to the cap screws that are used to press the insert into the body on the Stronghold and Oneway chucks. Also, I don't understand where you drilled a "nick" and what it's purpose is.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... Out of all of them, the Oneway method seems to be the most secure, but a bit of a pain if you go back and forth between lathes with different spindle threads.....

I think that the folks at Oneway would advise against that practice. Not because they want to sell you more chucks (although they wouldn't mind doing so), but mainly because when you jack the insert out of its press fit with the body, the force from the screws is so strong that it slightly deforms the tapered wall of the body. For safety reasons, it is not hardened steel like the insert is. When the insert is pressed in, it actually complies a slight amount to enable a precision alignment. Also it would be a very good idea to replace the screws after one cycle of inserting and removing an insert. Otherwise, you run a risk of snapping one or more of the cap screws and then you have big time trouble. I had one break but fortunately was able to retrieve it without damaging the chuck body. Oneway srongly advises to get your replacement screws from them. The reason is that the only cap screws that they have found to be strong enough to hold up under the severe tightening and jacking forces is the Grade 8 Unbrako brand. Most hardware stores do not carry that brand because they are more expensive. BTW, Oneway is not making any money off that recommendation -- they sent me replacement screws without charge.

 

[john lucas]

I have the Vicmarc chucks (and other brands as noted). They do have threaded inserts. I've had them for about 8 years now and only a few times have the inserts come loose. That's mostly because I have to change inserts frequently when I demo. The chucks that have not had the insert changed have never come loose.
I use a pin wrench to insert and loosen them instead of the rod they give you. The rod tends to elongate the hole and would eventually make it so out of round it won't work. The pin wrench (which they should give you instead) will never to this. You can buy them from Enco although I found mine at the flea mkt.
My problem is usually the opposite. They stick and are hard to remove when I need to change them. That's why I bought the pin wrench. Even then I often have to tap on the wrench with a mallet or tool handle to break it free.

 

[John Teichert]

I think that the folks at Oneway would advise against that practice. ....

Good point Bill, the Oneway Talon has only changed once (Shopsmith to 1x8), and because of the way the insert works, won't be one to swap back and forth.

John, the WoodRiver insert would hold better on my headstock spindle than the chuck body, so I now use the flats of the insert to take it off with a large slip joint pliers (no wrench sold with the body/insert either). It has also vibrated loose, when I had some significant chatter start up (due to my poor technique at the time) working on a longish end grain piece. None of this has happened recently (I'm much better, more atuned, and more careful), but I could have done without the hands on lessons from this particular insert/body. Other than that, the chuck has worked fine, but it's the last one I pick up.

 

[Sergio Villa]

I am having a hard time following your description. You mentioned setscrews, but I am wondering if you are actually referring to the cap screws that are used to press the insert into the body on the Stronghold and Oneway chucks. Also, I don't understand where you drilled a "nick" and what it's purpose is.

The Vimarc chucks 120 and 150 came in two versions: direct thread in which there is not an insert and everithing is machined fron a single piece of streel.
The other version has an insert also called adaptor.
The adaptor is screwed into the chuck and a set screw, often called grab screw, in the adaptor sets into the chuck. This leads to the possibility that when one tries to remove the chuck tapping the ex wrench when the chuck is jammed into the spindle (as often happens turning big bowls or using coring systems etc) the chuck gets loose from the adaptor while the adaptor is still jammed against the spindle.

Thus, to overcome this problem, I removed the set screw from the adaptor, screwed tightly the adaptor into the chuck, put the chuck with the adaptor without the set screw on a drill press; using a suitable drill bit (I forgot the diameter) inserted in the thread of the set screw I made a little dimple in the chuck. Now the set screw not only pushes against the chuck but goes a little into it and grabs the chuck more securely.

sorry for not having being clear.
Here is an image of the chuck with the insert and the set screw that might help.

 

[Sergio Villa]

I have the Vicmarc chucks (and other brands as noted). They do have threaded inserts. I've had them for about 8 years now and only a few times have the inserts come loose. That's mostly because I have to change inserts frequently when I demo. The chucks that have not had the insert changed have never come loose.
I use a pin wrench to insert and loosen them instead of the rod they give you. The rod tends to elongate the hole and would eventually make it so out of round it won't work. The pin wrench (which they should give you instead) will never to this. You can buy them from Enco although I found mine at the flea mkt.
My problem is usually the opposite. They stick and are hard to remove when I need to change them. That's why I bought the pin wrench. Even then I often have to tap on the wrench with a mallet or tool handle to break it free.

I've been loking for a suitable pin wrench but the one I found have the pins so small compared to the 3/8+ hole in the insert. Any idea?

 

[Bill Boehme]

The Vimarc chucks 120 and 150 came in two versions: direct thread in which there is not an insert and everithing is machined fron a single piece of streel.
The other version has an insert also called adaptor.
The adaptor is screwed into the chuck and a set screw, often called grab screw, in the adaptor sets into the chuck. This leads to the possibility that when one tries to remove the chuck tapping the ex wrench when the chuck is jammed into the spindle (as often happens turning big bowls or using coring systems etc) the chuck gets loose from the adaptor while the adaptor is still jammed against the spindle.

Thus, to overcome this problem, I removed the set screw from the adaptor, screwed tightly the adaptor into the chuck, put the chuck with the adaptor without the set screw on a drill press; using a suitable drill bit (I forgot the diameter) inserted in the thread of the set screw I made a little dimple in the chuck. Now the set screw not only pushes against the chuck but goes a little into it and grabs the chuck more securely.

sorry for not having being clear.
Here is an image of the chuck with the insert and the set screw that might help.

Thanks for the clarification. I was not familiar with the details of the Vicmarc chucks. For some reason, I had it in my head that you were talking about the Oneway chucks which have an entirely different design.

 

[John Torchick]

I'm reviewing this thread as I want to upgrade to a decent chuck for my Rikon lathe. I read where there is a concern about a setscrew coming loose. I had this problem with my reloading setup. I dropped a #5 lead shot in the hole and tightened the setscrew. The lead deforms to the threads on the main body and to the end of the setscrew. The threads are not deformed in any way. I do realize that here we are talking about something that is rotating at a high speed. Any comments?
OK, what is the choice between the three given by JL?

 

[hockenbery]

John,
If I were buying a chuck it would be either the Vicmarc 100 or the ONEWAY Talon.

I have the ONEWAY talon and it is a great chuck. Lots of jaws a available.

I don't have the small Vicmarc but do have the larger one as well as a couple of larger ONEWAY chucks.

If you plan to hold any square stock like 2x2s the ONEWAY Talon with the profiled jaws will do this job better than the Vicmarc.

Al

 

[john lucas]

Al I put square stock in the chuck so the corners fall between the jaws. This holds very firmly on my Vicmarc jaws. In fact most of my wasteblocks are square at least partly because of this.

 

[hockenbery]

Al I put square stock in the chuck so the corners fall between the jaws. This holds very firmly on my Vicmarc jaws. In fact most of my wasteblocks are square at least partly because of this.

John,

The dovetail jaws will grip square stock with two contact points at the ends of the jaws on each side of the square stock.
For most most things this works. With a tailstock it will "always" work.

The profiled jaws from ONEWAY have rounded contact surfaces that give two broader contact surfaces inside each jaw on each side of the square stock.
In both jaws the face of the stock should face the jaw with the corners between the jaws. The ONEWAY jaws do provide a stronger grip.

An example of where the dovetails might fail is on hollowing a goblet cup.
A catch will likely pull it from the the dovetail jaws way before it would pull It from the ONEWAY jaws.
even aggressive side pressure hollowing of the cup can walk the the wood out of the dovetails.
The dovetails carve a groove in the spindle grain under pressure

You use the tools well and I'm pretty sure you don't get catches.

Also I wonder if your waste blocks might be face grain squares. These would hold much better than spindle grain as the would would have to break.

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

a small warning

When I put my Talon chuck and insert together I didn't realize the insert had to be removed every time I wanted to completely disassemble the chuck for cleaning. Overthinking things I tossed the insert into my deep freezer for a couple hours and then put it in the chuck dry, carefully torqueing the three screws down evenly. Worked well until I snapped a screw off in one of the holes designed to pull the insert back out. Not sure if I will ever be able to remove that insert, maybe a 30 ton press a friend has for broaching. So far I just clean the best I can and cross my fingers.

Next time I put one of the chucks and inserts together I won't chill the chuck and I will apply a few drops of never seize or even a little low strength locktite. The low strength stuff fills any voids and increases hold, not an issue here, but it also prevents corrosion and often makes things easier to come apart than if nothing was used.

Hu

 

[hockenbery]

When I put my Talon chuck and insert together I didn't realize the insert had to be removed every time I wanted to completely disassemble the chuck for cleaning. Overthinking things I tossed the insert into my deep freezer for a couple hours and then put it in the chuck dry, carefully torqueing the three screws down evenly. Worked well until I snapped a screw off in one of the holes designed to pull the insert back out. Not sure if I will ever be able to remove that insert, maybe a 30 ton press a friend has for broaching. So far I just clean the best I can and cross my fingers.

Next time I put one of the chucks and inserts together I won't chill the chuck and I will apply a few drops of never seize or even a little low strength locktite. The low strength stuff fills any voids and increases hold, not an issue here, but it also prevents corrosion and often makes things easier to come apart than if nothing was used.

Hu

Hu,
I have owned a Stronghold for 17-18 years and Talon for 16 years and a couple more strongholds for 10 years and and a Vicmarc for 7 years.
Never took them apart to clean them. I might blow them out with compressed air a couple times a year.
One had the jaws out when a student decided to ignore the suggested tenon size, wasn't slowed down shearing off the stop pin, and came to a halt when the jaws started dropping onto the floor.

There may be better maintenance practices but none less time consuming. My thought is the chuck will last for 30+ years before the scroll threads get worn if I do nothing.

If I swap inserts I do clean the insert and the matting chuck part. As these two surfaces need to fit together.

You are probably not the first person to shrink fit a taper. I suggest you call ONEWAY for advice on how to get it loose.

Al

 

[john lucas]

hu. I don't own a Oneway but if its a tapered insert it should still pop out without too much pressure. However since they are open backed an occasional blow out with compressed air should clean them

 

[hockenbery]

hu. I don't own a Oneway but if its a tapered insert it should still pop out without too much pressure. However since they are open backed an occasional blow out with compressed air should clean them

John, the ONEWAY inserts have two pairs of holes one smooth that are used to bolt the insert in place with the screws to seat the taper and lock it in place.
When you take the screws out it is locked in place by the taper.
The other two holes are threaded and the screws in these act as jack screws to break the taper lock.

As I understand it, Hu broke one of the jack screws and the other jack screw won't break it free.
You sort have to work them in pairs with a half turn on each twice.
Shrink fitting the taper worked beyond his expectations. :-(
Good news is the insert is in and should work forever with that insert

I have one chuck I take to demos that I switch 33m, 1 and 1.25 inch inserts every couple months depending on where it gets used next.

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

unfortunately it worked exactly to my expectations!

John, the ONEWAY inserts have two pairs of holes one smooth that are used to bolt the insert in place with the screws to seat the taper and lock it in place.
When you take the screws out it is locked in place by the taper.
The other two holes are threaded and the screws in these act as jack screws to break the taper lock.

As I understand it, Hu broke one of the jack screws and the other jack screw won't break it free.
You sort have to work them in pairs with a half turn on each twice.
Shrink fitting the taper worked beyond his expectations. :-(
Good news is the insert is in and should work forever with that insert

I have one chuck I take to demos that I switch 33m, 1 and 1.25 inch inserts every couple months depending on where it gets used next.

Al

Al,

You described the situation perfectly. Unfortunately the assembly worked exactly to my expectations, I planned on it being a permanent install. A victim of my own success, should have read the whole manual before install but no self respecting southern boy would ever do that! Is good to hear that with a little luck I won't need to ever disassemble the pieces. If sufficiently motivated I can, when a bigger hammer doesn't work I grab a cutting torch.


John,

It is a tapered insert but so slightly tapered that it isn't visibly tapered. I do know a few tricks for removing tapered fits that don't want to release but this taper is so slight that it probably has to move over a quarter inch in the chuck body to release. I once had to hold a tie rod type fitting in place and lift my four ton John Deere farm tractor off of it to get a taper free, nothing is impossible but I have high hopes of never needing to remove this insert.

Hu