Difference between dye or stains for wood

[Gretch Flo]

I have been using the Artisan anilin dyes diluted with alcohol. Recently on this forum it wsa mentioned that the dyes fade with time and that the
chestnut brand (England) STAIN is purportedly to not fade as much.
I just got the chestnut stain yesterday from CSUSA. Getting ready to dil the concentrates in separate containers.
My question is what is the difference between stain and dye (in lay terms!!!). It can also be diluted with alcohol. Anilan=$8 for 8 oz vs $13 for Chestnut 8 oz.
Can mix them together????.
Problem is that I only have one piece that I have kept in living room-rest are sold or in plastic boxes, so I'll never know the truth by my experience, Gretch

 

[Raul McCai]

As a general proposition
Dye goes into solution the way salt goes into solution when mixed in water
Stains are finely ground pigments suspended in a solution.

The few conversions I've had with the internet experts (HA~! take that concept with a heaping spoon of salt) I have been told that the alcohol dyes are intended for spraying.
Is this true?
I haven't a clue, but I use Alcohol dyes for soaking wiping and haven't yet put any in my HVLP.

I've also read that aniline dyes are just called aniline out of custom, but in fact are not Aniline any more, the toxic aniline having been replaced by sophisticated acid based dyes.
But you might demand an MSDS from the retailer just to be sure.

This is what I mean:
Moser's Aniline Dyes and stains use the word Aniline right on the label but the MSDS says there is nothing hazardous in them - which would not be so if there really was aniline
http://woodworker.com/pdf/w1090.pdf

The CDC says the stuff is awful
http://woodworker.com/pdf/w1090.pdf

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Technically, a dye is a solution of a colorant in a solvent such as water or alcohol. The colorant "particles" are of molecular size and can seep into the cellular structure of the wood and/or chemically bind to the wood. A stain is a finely ground pigment suspended in a binder and a solvent that penetrates pores and cracks and sits on the surface but whose particles are too large to enter the cellular structure. Unlike dyes, which bind directly with the wood, stains require a binder to "glue" the pigment particles to the wood. Stains can be regarded as highly thinned paint. Often, commercial stains contain dye also.

Bob Flexner has a good discussion of these products in his book "Understanding Wood Finishing". Highly recommended.

 

[hockenbery]

Good summaries above.
Dye is a solution of chemical coloring; stain is a suspension of pigment particles.

You can read a lot of FLEXNER's articles on the net.
Google "Flexner stain dye" and many articles pop up.
The ones from popular woodworking are good.

I have sprayed dyes with an airbrush. Use lots of ventilation.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

As a general proposition
Dye goes into solution the way salt goes into solution when mixed in water
Stains are finely ground pigments suspended in a solution.

The few conversions I've had with the internet experts (HA~! take that concept with a heaping spoon of salt) I have been told that the alcohol dyes are intended for spraying.
Is this true?
I haven't a clue, but I use Alcohol dyes for soaking wiping and haven't yet put any in my HVLP.

I've also read that aniline dyes are just called aniline out of custom, but in fact are not Aniline any more, the toxic aniline having been replaced by sophisticated acid based dyes.
But you might demand an MSDS from the retailer just to be sure.

This is what I mean:
Moser's Aniline Dyes and stains use the word Aniline right on the label but the MSDS says there is nothing hazardous in them - which would not be so if there really was aniline
http://woodworker.com/pdf/w1090.pdf

The CDC says the stuff is awful
http://woodworker.com/pdf/w1090.pdf

Raul, your understanding of dye and stain is the same as my understanding. I would add that some products such as WATCO stains contain both dye and pigment so you get the best part of both. Too much pigment can muddy the texture of wood and pigments tend to concentrate in the pores. Dyes do a better job of uniformly coloring the wood, but they also can subdue the grain pattern that you want to emphasize.

Paint is just another word for a really thick stain.

I have also read that despite the name, there are no aniline dyes.

Just to muddy the water, there is a new class of pigments, nano-pigments (meaning that the particle size is on the order of 10⁻⁹ microns) that behave more like a dye than a pigment. They are currently used in some high-end photo printers.

Dyes are versatile because they can be brushed, wiped, sprayed, or applied with a marker or a pen (Copic markers and pens, Prismacolor markers). I've never sprayed dye ... unless you count using a spray bottle. I think that spraying works better if layering colors when the dyes are used as colorants in lacquer.

 

[Richard Coers]

I image they will mix together, but since you are worried about fading, why would you?

 

[Gretch Flo]

I image they will mix together, but since you are worried about fading, why would you?

Because I have 3 new bottles and others that are partial-of varying quantities of the artisan dye. . I am more prone to some colors than others.
I just bought 7 new colors of the chestnut stain. Just wondered if I wanted to combine colors (I have dye jars of blue/black, green/black, chestnut/red, mixed with alcohol, and other jars with one color and alcohol). Just wondered if i could combine some of the left overs with the chestnut stain. . (My frugal gene) Gretch

 

[Jamie Straw]

[Snip]

Bob Flexner has a good discussion of these products in his book "Understanding Wood Finishing". Highly recommended.

+1 on that! "If I could only have on book on finishing...."

 

[Bill Boehme]

Because I have 3 new bottles and others that are partial-of varying quantities of the artisan dye. . I am more prone to some colors than others.
I just bought 7 new colors of the chestnut stain. Just wondered if I wanted to combine colors (I have dye jars of blue/black, green/black, chestnut/red, mixed with alcohol, and other jars with one color and alcohol). Just wondered if i could combine some of the left overs with the chestnut stain. . (My frugal gene) Gretch

Gretch, I don't like the Artisan dyes because they seem to fade rather quickly and they also seem somewhat weak and drab to me. The Chestnut dyes are supposed to be much more colorfast and my experience with them for the last few years is that they have held up well. I also have been using TransTint dyes with alcohol and while I like them more than the Artisan dyes, I rarely use them since I started using the Chestnut dyes. I like the color selection that TransTint has, but like the Artisan dyes they also fade over time.

My, bottom line is that I don't mix the different brands of dyes, but it is only because of my concern about fading and not compatibility.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Gretch, I don't like the Artisan dyes because they seem to fade rather quickly and they also seem somewhat weak and drab to me. The Chestnut dyes are supposed to be much more colorfast and my experience with them for the last few years is that they have held up well. I also have been using TransTint dyes with alcohol and while I like them more than the Artisan dyes, I rarely use them since I started using the Chestnut dyes. I like the color selection that TransTint has, but like the Artisan dyes they also fade over time.

My, bottom line is that I don't mix the different brands of dyes, but it is only because of my concern about fading and not compatibility.

Thanks, Bill . Just hate throwing $50+ down the drain- As mentioned a while ago, I have a birdseye maple tiny bowl (made 3+years ago) in my living room, near the wood stove and late sun, and it is still bluish, but I think less than I remember it was!!!! I am thinking that the 3+ coats of 1# shellac, before the Danish oil has been ok-, but I want my bowls to be great forever.!!!!!! I have older bowls in plastic boxes that have remained well colored, but that doesn't count, since they are exposed to nothing, but my moving them around!!!, Gretch

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Thanks, Bill . Just hate throwing $50+ down the drain- As mentioned a while ago, I have a birdseye maple tiny bowl (made 3+years ago) in my living room, near the wood stove and late sun, and it is still bluish, but I think less than I remember it was!!!! I am thinking that the 3+ coats of 1# shellac, before the Danish oil has been ok-, but I want my bowls to be great forever.!!!!!! I have older bowls in plastic boxes that have remained well colored, but that doesn't count, since they are exposed to nothing, but my moving them around!!!, Gretch

I cannot answer definately on mixing brands in the same bottle , but like Bill I would say probably not a big deal. Possible problems include but not limited to uneven coloration on application, also possibility of one color settling out and need mixing more often.
As to using more than one shade or brand from different bottles yes that can be done easily. Flexner goes into some detail on using different products to attain a specific shade or coloration. The main thing to do is a color test board (knowing that may not be available for all turning woods, use a close match). on the board mark or tape off areas and test the color steps to show progression. This process may require a sealer between colors especially if they have the same solvent as they will mix and dilute each other. Seal between coats if that is the case with blonde shellac.
I know I just muddied the waters, but coloring is a vibrant area and there are not a huge number of people who can give those absolute answers. This is just experience from a couple of different efforts.

 

[Bill Boehme]

When it comes to mixing different hues in the bottle or layering them on wood, you need to be familiar with subtractive color mixing. If you aren't, an artist's color wheel would help. Using the wrong combination will just give you a drab mess. An example of a combination that works is blue and yellow to produce green. A bad combination is yellow and purple. Think about it ... what would yellowish purple l or perhaps purplish yellow look like? Green and red just come out as dark brown. I can't imagine that there would be a difference between using a barrier between layers or just layering them directly one on top of the other. Generally, I try to minimize the amount of dye because it is very easy to obscure the wood grain and figure. I only dye very light wood like maple. If you use wood that has color then you need to take that into consideration because that is no different than applying a dye or stain of the same color. Reddish brown wood and green dye will just look like dark brown with a hint of green if you use enough if it.

 

[Gretch Flo]

I cannot answer definately on mixing brands in the same bottle , but like Bill I would say probably not a big deal. Possible problems include but not limited to uneven coloration on application, also possibility of one color settling out and need mixing more often.
As to using more than one shade or brand from different bottles yes that can be done easily. Flexner goes into some detail on using different products to attain a specific shade or coloration. The main thing to do is a color test board (knowing that may not be available for all turning woods, use a close match). on the board mark or tape off areas and test the color steps to show progression. This process may require a sealer between colors especially if they have the same solvent as they will mix and dilute each other. Seal between coats if that is the case with blonde shellac.
I know I just muddied the waters, but coloring is a vibrant area and there are not a huge number of people who can give those absolute answers. This is just experience from a couple of different efforts.

A couple of thoughts here. The color board may not help me. I use light colored woods (mainly maple) but there are darker areas naturally in the wood. (crotch figure sometimes is lite tan plus spalting with just black lines, or broad areas of blackish color. ). When I first started dying, I made notes of how many and what colors I added. Then found that with different texture of the wood (tiger stripes, flame, crotch, more "punky".etc ), I couldn't exactly reproduce,-close, but not exact. I use alot of spalted maple-some only a few lines, others alot of lines.

I have combined (anilin artisan dyes diluted with alcohol) in their own jar: green and black, blue and black, and lately their new color chocolate with red. Trying to get to the color i want more rapidly rather than many coats of the diff dyes. I have seen NO problem with separation, and if in doubt, I stir with popsicle stick. Gretch

 

[Raul McCai]

an artist's color wheel would help. .

I recall a demo on you tube by Jimmy Clewes he was talking about coloring wood and suggested using a color wheel and sticking to colors that were near each other.

 

[John Shillabeer]

Chestnut stain and fading

Hello All:

I have been using Chestnut spirit stains for a couple of years now. Some of my coloured wall art has been hanging outside since spring 2014 without any sign of fading at all. However, the pieces went a most unpleasant shade of green during our wet and cool winter. They were covered with bacteria, algae, or something else. I don't know what. However, while spring cleaning the house exterior, I gave them a blast with the pressure washer and they cleaned up very nicely without any deterioration at all. The colours are as good as ever.

Before using the Chestnut products outdoors, I contacted a couple of professional turners in the UK who I knew from their websites used Chestnut products. One said he had pieces sitting in a window for nearly ten years and the colours were as good as new. The other advised me to use a varnish to keep the winter green accumulation away.

By contrast I used Lee Valley Aniline dyes on a coffee table some years ago. It looked very nice to begin with, but after two years near a sunny window it had faded a lot on the sunny side.

Question : if concerned about fading, how about using a UV protectant as a finish? I understand such finishes exist.

Just my two cents worth.

John

 

[Gretch Flo]

Hello All:

I have been using Chestnut spirit stains for a couple of years now. Some of my coloured wall art has been hanging outside since spring 2014 without any sign of fading at all. However, the pieces went a most unpleasant shade of green during our wet and cool winter. They were covered with bacteria, algae, or something else. I don't know what. However, while spring cleaning the house exterior, I gave them a blast with the pressure washer and they cleaned up very nicely without any deterioration at all. The colours are as good as ever.

Before using the Chestnut products outdoors, I contacted a couple of professional turners in the UK who I knew from their websites used Chestnut products. One said he had pieces sitting in a window for nearly ten years and the colours were as good as new. The other advised me to use a varnish to keep the winter green accumulation away.

John

JOhn-That's very reassuring!!!!! Thanks, Gretch