Dumbest grinder question ever

[Mark Hepburn]

Okay, this is seriously a dumb thing to ask. The reason is that it is something that I have done not once but 4 separate times - recently - and even more during my lifetime, and can't remember what to do.

So, I have the two Rikons and set up one with an 80 and 180 CBN about a month ago. Recently I noticed that my tools were hopping quite a bit on the 180 wheel, so to check if it is the wheel, the shaft, etc, I pulled both wheels to swap sides.

Well, now I can't tighten the nuts, as one is left hand threaded and the other is right threaded. Can any of you common-sense types lend some advice to an apparently imbecilic person?

Your kind assistance appreciated. Jokes expected here as well. Thanks!

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Slide a wood wedge between your wolverine base and the wheel and tighten slightly. The wheels aren't going to come off on their own, so they don't need to be lugnut tight.

Don't worry, it took me a little while to figure that one out.

And it's good to have both left and right handed wrenches...

 

[Bill Boehme]

You can go to the Engineering Department at LSU to borrow one of their left handed wrenches. They are the only place besides Texas A&M that have these very specialized tools.

Zach is right that it isn't necessary to honk down on the nuts because the rotation direction and friction between the nut and wheel makes them self tightening.

Also, I just had a brilliant idea that has never been done before and I'm offering you the honor to be the first human to attempt this. Put a wrench on the nut and while firmly holding it and solidly bracing your body, hit the start switch. If my calculations are correct, it ought to tighten it to hold until the cows come home. If things go as hoped, you won't suffer any permanently debilitating injuries.

Legal fine print:
While your question isn't dumb, this answer is undoubtedly the dumbest grinder answer ever and anybody following this advice may be equally dumb.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Oh, and don't forget to make a YouTube video.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Okay, got it. LSU is only 80 miles up the road. Go get a left handed wrench, and set up my camera. I'll epoxy the wrench so it doesn't slip off of the nut so I can get a good video.

My brother is an Aggie and that reminds me of a story:

An A&M graduate wanted to go into the chicken business. He bought 1000 hatchlings, furrowed several good long rows and planted the chicks. After watering them daily he was puzzled to see that they all died. Undaunted, he bought another 1000 but this time planted them head first. Unfortunately, this only accelerated the same inevitable result. So he sent off a letter to the A&M Ag Research Center explaining the problem and asked for help.

A few days later he received a reply from the department head, who told him they would be happy to help, and would he please send along a soil sample so they could try to duplicate the problem?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Okay, seriously,

Bill, Zach, thanks. I'll make a wedge and do as you suggest. I happen to have a left handed wrench.

Another quick story: My first time "in the fleet" on an aircraft carrier, I reported to the G-division shop, where a gunner's mate promptly sent me to engineering for a left-handed spanner wrench. After about 30 minutes or so of going from deck to deck, up and down boiler spaces and so on, I found a very helpful Chief Engineer's Mate, surrounded by grinning minions. He asked me to reach over to the door, grab a funny looking thing and hand it to him, which I did. "Hold out your right hand", he said. I did and he slapped it into my hand. "Hold out your left". I did, he put the wrench in my left hand and explained, "Now you have a left-handed spanner." Lesson learned.

And passed on.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I guess that you swabbies are too smart to fall for that trick. We'll have to wait for a Marine to come along.

 

[john lucas]

After I got out of basic training in the Air Force they sent me to Tech School to learn Electronics. I had only been there a short time when the Dorm Chief ordered me to go get a yard of flight line. When he got back to his room he found about 200 lbs of asphalt laying on his bed. I said there's your yard of flight line. He didn't mess with me anymore.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

After I got out of basic training in the Air Force they sent me to Tech School to learn Electronics. I had only been there a short time when the Dorm Chief ordered me to go get a yard of flight line. When he got back to his room he found about 200 lbs of asphalt laying on his bed. I said there's your yard of flight line. He didn't mess with me anymore.

Love it!

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I guess that you swabbies are too smart to fall for that trick. We'll have to wait for a Marine to come along.

 

[John Torchick]

The only dumb question is the one not asked.
JOKE: A University of Tennessee graduate got a job as a sales representative. When he made his first sales call, he and the purchasing agent made small talk at the beginning when the PA said, "You are a Tennessee graduate, aren't you?" The young man replied that he was and how did the man know. He said, " Well, the way you are dressed, your mannerisms, and speech make it obvious you are a Tennessee graduate." The young man replied, "And you, sir, are an Alabama graduate." "Why yes, how did you know that?" "I saw your class ring when you were picking your nose."

 

[Mark Hepburn]

John, I literally had to stop laughing in order to reply to your post!

As an LSU fan, it's even funnier

 

[odie]

Mark.......I do exactly as Zach does, but have a piece of steel that I use as the wedge......works perfectly.

We used to send the "FNG's" out to get "prop wash" and "keniffel pins" for the helicopters! We all get caught doing that one time, and after we were "initiated", it was a great laugh to dish this out to the new guys!

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Prop wash. That's great. I wish I'd had that when I was working on the flight deck.

So I got the grinder done. Thanks all.

Bill, I'll post that video, but first I gotta pry the wrench out of the ceiling.

 

[Owen Lowe]

Well, now I can't tighten the nuts, as one is left hand threaded and the other is right threaded. Can any of you common-sense types lend some advice to an apparently imbecilic person?

I’ve often wondered (as in every time I have need to remove/replace a grinder wheel) why grinders don’t have simple spindle locks.

 

[Raul McCai]

turn around and do it with your back to the grinder.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I don’t know why you would take both wheels off at the same time , but since you have done that, use the inertia of the grinder motor to tighten the nuts, use a small mallet or something similar (stick of wood).

You just hit the wrench (LH or RH ones ) up up up up and you will get the nut tight enough.

The other thing you can do, is to squeeze one hand tightened nut hard with a large pair of vice grips, that should give you enough resistance to tighten the other nut some, at least with those low cost grinders most common now, the squeezed nut should get back to normal once the vice grip is released (if not, just squeeze the nut to round again) it can than also get tightened enough to keep from loosening up by itself.

I like the use of the inertia best, even when loosening one nut, and then retighten it again, and the other one if needed the same way

 

[olaf Vogel]

The nuts tighten in opposite direction because they are self tightening.
On both my grinders, I just screw the nuts back on, hold the wheel by hand, tighten with wrench until I can't hold it.
Then turn the grinder on and off a few times.

The rotational inertia of the wheels tightens the nuts as the motor accelerates. But coasting to a stop does not loosen them.

A few cycles later and these have never come undone.

Admittedly this works better with larger, heavy wheels, maybe not so well with a lighter CNB wheel (which I've never tried)

 

[Bill Boehme]

Admittedly this works better with larger, heavy wheels, maybe not so well with a lighter CNB wheel (which I've never tried)

It may be that you and I are the only ones stuck in the twentieth century and still using aluminum oxide matrix wheels, but I have heard that the moment of inertia of the CBN wheels is much greater because most of them are steel and most of the mass is at the rim. There are some aluminum CBN wheels and their moment of inertia may be in the same ballpark as the matrix wheels.

There has been a problem with some of the cheap grinders burning out their start windings when using steel CBN wheels due to the prolonged acceleration to running speed.

 

[robo hippy]

There is one very good reason for no spindle locks. The standard grinding wheels, if tightened too tight, and of course some idiots would do this, will crack. You can't do that with the metal CBN wheels though.... When I change or switch out wheels, I just hold the wheel with one hand and use a big adjustable wrench in the other. If they have been on long enough to get pretty tight, I slip a wedge of some sort under the wheel. I don't think you want them to be 'tight', just snug.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

While we're on the topic of loose nuts, it might be good to write a note, maybe on the label of the wheel whether the nut is RH or LH. If I'm not mistaken, the nut on the right side is LH. If this is not right, somebody please correct me.

Since I mainly use my Tormek for tool sharpening, the time between replacing the grinding wheels on my dry grinder is more years than I can retain information in my head. I have to think about which side has a LH nut and hope that I'm not confused. If I ever get a CBN wheel, I probably won't ever need to remove it again.

 

[odie]

If I'm not mistaken, the nut on the right side is LH. If this is not right, somebody please correct me.

Hiya Bill......The wheel on the right is right hand thread.
Good idea.....Sometimes I have to write notes to remember these things, too!

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

It may be that you and I are the only ones stuck in the twentieth century and still using aluminum oxide matrix wheels, but I have heard that the moment of inertia of the CBN wheels is much greater because most of them are steel and most of the mass is at the rim. There are some aluminum CBN wheels and their moment of inertia may be in the same ballpark as the matrix wheels.

There has been a problem with some of the cheap grinders burning out their start windings when using steel CBN wheels due to the prolonged acceleration to running speed.

No you’re not the only one Bill , as I learned to sharpen HSS lathe tools and drill bits almost 60 years ago with carborundum wheels, and have ever since, I do not see a reason to change that, though I should mention that I did wear away one of these white Al.OX. wheels having fallen in this, have to have thing.

As the good HSS steel is much harder and tougher than wood, I also do not see the need for carbide particles in my tools, saves me from needing CBN wheels also, and the poisonous wheel dust that’s floating around

Maybe I’m just one tool away from being a perfect turner you think .

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

While we're on the topic of loose nuts, it might be good to write a note, maybe on the label of the wheel whether the nut is RH or LH. If I'm not mistaken, the nut on the right side is LH. If this is not right, somebody please correct me.

Since I mainly use my Tormek for tool sharpening, the time between replacing the grinding wheels on my dry grinder is more years than I can retain information in my head. I have to think about which side has a LH nut and hope that I'm not confused. If I ever get a CBN wheel, I probably won't ever need to remove it again.

If the inertia tightens the wheel, which it does on a grinder, than the backward rotation of the wheel and nut agains the forward rotation of the motor/spindle tightening it, will show you that you have RH thread on the RH side, and LH thread on the LH side of the grinder, as you are facing it from the front.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Hiya Bill......The wheel on the right is right hand thread.
Good idea.....Sometimes I have to write notes to remember these things, too!
View attachment 21206

You are typing too fast or I’m reading too slow OD, as you answered that ?? already before I saw it, and yes you are right of course, RH side RH thread, LH side LH thread

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

There is one very good reason for no spindle locks. The standard grinding wheels, if tightened too tight, and of course some idiots would do this, will crack. You can't do that with the metal CBN wheels though.... When I change or switch out wheels, I just hold the wheel with one hand and use a big adjustable wrench in the other. If they have been on long enough to get pretty tight, I slip a wedge of some sort under the wheel. I don't think you want them to be 'tight', just snug.

robo hippy

I have always done what Robo and Olaf said and hold the wheel . All you need to do is snug the nut and you are set.

There has been a problem with some of the cheap grinders burning out their start windings when using steel CBN wheels due to the prolonged acceleration to running speed.

Bill I have not had a problem with my cheap Woodcraft (no longer available) slow speed starting up with CBN wheels for about 2 years. I did see a suggestion if this concerns some is to spin the wheel by hand before turning on . CBN will spin a while even with hand start. CAUTION do not turn on till hand is clear. We have to put those disclaimers in for the ever alert watchdog or is it watchcat.

 

[odie]

You are typing too fast or I’m reading too slow OD, as you answered that ?? already before I saw it, and yes you are right of course, RH side RH thread, LH side LH thread

Hi Leo.......I stated what is, and you addressed the why. Good explanation.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hiya Bill......The wheel on the right is right hand thread.
Good idea.....Sometimes I have to write notes to remember these things, too!
View attachment 21206

If the inertia tightens the wheel, which it does on a grinder, than the backward rotation of the wheel and nut agains the forward rotation of the motor/spindle tightening it, will show you that you have RH thread on the RH side, and LH thread on the LH side of the grinder, as you are facing it from the front.

Thanks, Odie ad Leo. I guess that I was having a senior moment, but when looking at your picture it is very clear that it would need to be a RH nut. I wonder if there such things as RH and LH Belleville washers? ... or left side and right side Belleville washers?

.... Maybe I’m just one tool away from being a perfect turner you think .

I have a t-shirt with Don Geiger's famous quotation. Trouble is ... I'm not sure what that particular tool is so I have to buy all of them in search of the right one.

 

[Hy Tran]

I do something very similar to Odie--but I don't write down if the thread is RH or LH--I just draw a big arrow on the grinder, saying "tighten." I have one on each side of my grinder. This tells me which way to push the wrench to loosen... (I suppose I could have drawn the arrow in the opposite direction, saying "loosen.")

 

[Owen Lowe]

Odie, I see you have one of those discontinued Delta "slow-speed” grinders (as have I). Have you had any problems with the start capacitors? I’m looking at replacing it for the 2nd time in 15 years. Not sure what’s up with that; all the other motors I use are still running on the capacitors they came with.

 

[odie]

Odie, I see you have one of those discontinued Delta "slow-speed” grinders (as have I). Have you had any problems with the start capacitors? I’m looking at replacing it for the 2nd time in 15 years. Not sure what’s up with that; all the other motors I use are still running on the capacitors they came with.

Hello Owen.......

No, after a dozen years or so, I'm still on the original motor and capacitor. I did have to change out the on/off switch though.

This is a very heavy duty grinder. The motor and housing are so big, that when the wheel diameter is worn down, I have to dress the wheel on the left at a slight angle, in order for scraper handles to not interfere with it. Other than that, it's been a great grinder.
Why do you suppose it was discontinued? Just speculating here, but my best guess is it's so stoutly made, that it would have to be much more expensive to make them.......and, can't compete with those now being produced in Asia. I believe the going rate when I purchased mine was around $200.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have the same model that Odie has and also the same Norton 3X grinding wheels. My grinder also about twelve years old and still has the original start capacitor and power switch.

Owen, how long does it take for the motor to come to a stop when you turn the switch off? This could possibly be an indication of the bearing friction which , if excessive, would put a greater strain on the start capacitor during the half-second or so when the grinder is accelerating to running speed. When I turn my grinder off, it takes one minute and thirty five seconds to coast to a stop. Another member of my club has two of these grinders and one of his takes about the same length of time to coast to a stop. The other one comes to a stop in about 20 to 30 seconds as I recall. He said it was like that since he bought it several years ago.

BTW, Odie and I have discussed grinding away part of that fat flange at the front that sometimes bumps against a tool handle when doing a side grind on a tool. So far, if pictures don't lie, neither of us has actually done it.

 

[odie]

I have the same model that Odie has and also the same Norton 3X grinding wheels. My grinder also about twelve years old and still has the original start capacitor and power switch.

BTW, Odie and I have discussed grinding away part of that fat flange at the front that sometimes bumps against a tool handle when doing a side grind on a tool. So far, if pictures don't lie, neither of us has actually done it.

Bill......those aren't the Norton 3X wheels, but are Norton SG (seeded gel) wheels. These are available from Packard, but the price of these wheels will make you wince!.....over $100 apiece! I'm a very big believer in these SG wheels.......
click:
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=sharp-sg

Made by Norton in the USA, these wheels were recommended by Jerry Glaser. These wheels are also great for sharpening M2 high speed steel tools. We have never used a grinding wheel that cuts as fast or cool. The secret of these wheels is that they are made using a Seeded Gel (SG) Grain ceramic abrasive that Norton invented.

Yes, I seem to remember the suggestion of grinding away the flange on the Delta grinder. I gave that some serious thought, but never did do it. I'm glad I didn't, because for my purposes, dressing the wheel to a slight angle takes care of the problem of clearance nicely.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

I was just looking at your picture again and noticed that the wheels are definitely more blue than mine which are more of an aqua color. I winced at paying fifty something dollars apiece. The advertising says that the 3X wheels use "SG Technology" which is marketing-speak for they really aren't quite the real deal.

 

[olaf Vogel]

While we're on the topic of loose nuts, it might be good to write a note, maybe on the label of the wheel whether the nut is RH or LH. If I'm not mistaken, the nut on the right side is LH. If this is not right, somebody please correct me.

My wife had a simple solution: put a dab of paint on one side, spindle end and nut.
You always know what goes where and you can't thread the nut on wrong...

Hello Owen.......
Why do you suppose it was discontinued? Just speculating here, but my best guess is it's so stoutly made, that it would have to be much more expensive to make them.......and, can't compete with those now being produced in Asia. I believe the going rate when I purchased mine was around $200.

koView attachment 21209

I agree - not many consumer, pro-sumer, or even Pro tools are made to that grade any more.
1 - they cost a lot
2 - there is cheaper (disposable) competition
3 - they last too long - so you don't buy another one.

Two years ago I picked up a 3 phase grinder for $200 from the local version of CL. It was a "bit" more than I expected.

3 hp and 14" wheels.
I had to disassemble it to move it. Turns out its a bit heavier than anticipated. And likely 60+ years old from the serial number.

And I wanted the cool lighted eye shields. Surprisingly, the company was still in business and still selling the same model plus spare parts. The shields where a whopping $1000! They told me everything they sell lasts a long time...and the clients never come back. So its a tiny company, that can't compete with China, since no one will spend that kind of money (including me - so you can see my DIY Lexan shields)

Oh, the grinder came with 5 wheels, so it might be a long time before I wear them all down.

 

[Bill Boehme]

My wife had a simple solution: put a dab of paint on one side, spindle end and nut.
You always know what goes where and you can't thread the nut on wrong...

That's nice, but the concern was about removing the nuts and knowing which way to turn it. If you're a pilot then you know that red is on the left and green is on the right on your aircraft wing position lights. I suppose that a ham fisted person could screw the wrong nut onto the shaft since I've seen worse things done.

...and the clients never come back.

I can understand that.

 

[John Torchick]

Glad you enjoyed the university joke. It is one that is universal, used for any two competing colleges or universities.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I don’t know why you would take both wheels off at the same time , but since you have done that, use the inertia of the grinder motor to tighten the nuts, use a small mallet or something similar (stick of wood).

You just hit the wrench (LH or RH ones ) up up up up and you will get the nut tight enough.

The other thing you can do, is to squeeze one hand tightened nut hard with a large pair of vice grips, that should give you enough resistance to tighten the other nut some, at least with those low cost grinders most common now, the squeezed nut should get back to normal once the vice grip is released (if not, just squeeze the nut to round again) it can than also get tightened enough to keep from loosening up by itself.

I like the use of the inertia best, even when loosening one nut, and then retighten it again, and the other one if needed the same way

Thanks Leo. I removed both to eliminate variables from the question of vibration (is it the wheel, the shaft, etc?).

 

[Mark Hepburn]

It may be that you and I are the only ones stuck in the twentieth century and still using aluminum oxide matrix wheels, but I have heard that the moment of inertia of the CBN wheels is much greater because most of them are steel and most of the mass is at the rim. There are some aluminum CBN wheels and their moment of inertia may be in the same ballpark as the matrix wheels.

There has been a problem with some of the cheap grinders burning out their start windings when using steel CBN wheels due to the prolonged acceleration to running speed.

I haven't had a problem so far. My grinder cost about half what a CBN wheel cost, so the cost/value relationship has changed. Now it is the grinder that is a consumable and the wheel that lasts. Of course if I bought a Baldor or a Tradesman...

I'm using a set of D-Way wheels and another set of Hurricane, all 1.5" and all pretty heavy. Takes a bit for them to come up to speed, but what is pretty noticeable is that they spin for several minutes after the grinder is switched off. I am not exaggerating. Minutes. The wheels are very nicely balanced.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Glad you enjoyed the university joke. It is one that is universal, used for any two competing colleges or universities.

Yes, I've already plagiarized it.