End grain bowl

[Charles Hill]

Getting reading to do end grain bowl. I was like some tip on how the best way to go about

 

[hockenbery]

Getting reading to do end grain bowl. I was like some tip on how the best way to go about

The basics are opposite a face grain bowl inside it's turned from bottom center to rim, outside is turned rim to bottom.

If you are going thin you can get better results turning out the inside first and then turning the outside rim.
Globe let's and vases are a popular end grain bowl and these are hollowed first by most people who turn them.
End grain side Walls are quite weak and easily crack from the hollowing pressures.

Turning the inside is best done with a tool designed to cut up toward the rim.
Hook tool, ring tool, covered ring tool.
Also a pilot hole speeds the process and it is difficult to turn the center out until you have a lot of practice with the ring or hook tools.
Twist drill leave no point holes.

A negative rake scraper works best on the inside.

I suggest doing some small wide goblets or vases or large boxes for your first end grain turnings.

Jimmy Clewes has a nice video on the vases.

With rare exceptions the end grain is the least pleasing view of the wood. Furniture makers have been hiding end grain for 2000 years.
The goblets, vases, and end grain hollow forms tend to hide the end grain are usually displayed with a limited view of the end grain.
A few woods such as Norfolk island pine look pretty good when turned end grain.

Likely there are some end grain turners in the local clubs near you.

Below is a photo of three box elder HFs. The bottom right one is hollowed though the face grain the other two through the end grain
None have a view of the end grain.

Have fun

 

[MichaelMouse]

Down grain is the way to cut whether the bowl is end or face, flaring out or bulging under. You can make mistakes with the in to bottom or out to rim rules because they're not always true.

Hook or ring tools, or something like the Hunter tool - functionally gouges at 90 degrees to the shank - slice well, though you use them with a backslant coming down grain, so a fingernail grind gouge will do the same if you hold level or drop handle a bit as you normally do when pull cutting. I don't scrape, but when I did, I used a round cutter on the Stewart. Then my neighbor gave me a couple of cutters like the ones which appeared later with the Hunter tool. They can scrape, but I liked to cut with them.

Not going to say that all endgrain bowls are visually inferior, because I've made a few I'm fond of when I liked the piece. This one and its siblings made a LOT of money for me from one log. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Cultivated-Birch.jpg

Even little cutoffs can be fun and profitable. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Cherry-Top.jpg or http://www.aawforum.org/photopost/data/500/1022Pith-Elm.jpg whose siblings made a small elm worthwhile. I also did some tamaracks which came out very nice. Good early/late contrast, and you can catch the branch whorl like the NIP turners. Spruce always crushed for me in that orientation, but SYP is also a possiblity.

 

[Bill Weaver]

This has inspired me to do some end grain turning.

 

[Charles Hill]

Hook tool, ring tool, covered ring too
lA negative rake scraper works best on the inside.

what is negative rake scraper look like?

I know what a hook tool is but rest I am not sure of also which is best square or round shank ect.?

 

[hockenbery]

A negative rake scraper has two bevels. They do not have to be equal in length.
The bevel on the top makes it much less grabby so it is easier to use on end grain.
The bottom bevel has a burr on the top.

This video shows a round nose in use and how to sharpen it and a bit of a sales pitch

Glenn Lucas GL2 Round Nose Negative Rake Scraper - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-b4IM4Jy0c

 

[Bill Boehme]

Generally negative rake scrapers are held level and used on centerline. They are basically the same thing as tilting a regular scraper downhill except that holding the tool level and on centerline greatly reduces the chance of getting too far off center and risking a catch. I have seen all sorts of variations of negative rake scrapers -- a few that I considered misinformed. While I have seen many variations, most of the early ones appeared to have included angles that were 90° or greater. The large angle means that the tool is unlikely to grab and that it does not hold a bur for very long. Their purpose is to clean up a surface. My opinion is that it is a tool that I could do without.

Use a bowl gouge for most of the work. On exterior go from rim to foot and on interior go from center to rim. You can shear scrape to clean up the surface before sanding.

 

[Charles Hill]

On hook tool does it mater that the shank round or square

What is your opinion or advice on this

I am just want to get something that will hollow out small are 5 to 8 bud vase

 

[Bill Boehme]

It makes a lot of difference because you will need to rotate the hook took for the optimal angle. If the shank were square it seems to me that would be problematic in keeping the tool rolled to the most effective angle. Have you used a hook tool before? If not, I can give you some suggestions.

 

[Charles Hill]

No I have use uses one and love all advice you give me
How to use hook tool and best hook tool for me to buy

 

[Charles Hill]

I have not uses one and love all advice you give me
How to use hook tool and best hook tool for me to buy

 

[john lucas]

Based on some of your other posts I assume you are fairly new to turning. I personally don't recommend a hook tool for new turners. It is a good tool but takes practice to master. Here is a video showing you how. If you do a search for Hook tool for woodturning you will find info on how to build one and some other info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk7I31-D4No

I don't remember what you were wanting to turn but seems like it was an end grain vessel. My prefered tool is the new Hunter Hercules. A very easy tool to use and never needs sharpening. You use it like a scraper but it leaves a cleaner cut. Here is a video I did on how to use it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzrLN8SQ8ms

 

[Dean Center]

On his tool making DVD, Alan Lacer shows both how to make a hook tool and how to use one. If you have a MAPP torch (like a propane torch, but jazzed up and hotter), a pair of needle nose pliers you don't mind ruining for other uses, good color vision, a lot of patience and some time, you can make your own hook tool. Metallurgy is actually kind of interesting. Learning to use a hook tool takes a little practice, mostly at keeping the tool aimed "NorthWest", but the results are terrific once you get the knack. A friend uses a termite ring tool with good results and John Lucas has mentioned he gets good results with one of the Hunter tools.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Charles, I don't know if you can buy them anywhere. I have always made my own hook tools. I learned from a fellow club member and so mine don't quite look like the ones that Alan Lacer makes. Nevertheless, all hook tools work basically the same way, while at the same time, each one behaves a bit differently so there is a bit of learning process in getting the feel of how each one handles.

John Lucas has given you the best advice that there is. I don't want to discourage you from using one, but at the same time, it is quite a handful for a beginner. If you have turned a couple hollowforms then you might be ready to try a hook tool. I didn't have very much experience when I first used one and I managed to get some of the most spectacular catches that can be imagined. On one of those catches, I bent the tool shank about 30°.

If you decide to use a hook tool, here are a couple tips. Enter with the tip of the tool in the 12 o'clock position and start cutting from the center outwards. Cutting should be done at or above centerline -- above is better. The tool can't cut when the tip is pointing straight up. Rotate the tool so that the tip is pointing to one or two o'clock. The more that it is rotated, the more aggressive the cut. You need to pay very close attention to this and adjust as needed. Hook tools work best on wood that is a bit green. If the wood is bone dry, the hook tool will be rougher to use and will dull quickly.

The nice thing about a hook tool is that it makes nice shavings and leaves a smooth surface -- sort of like using a bowl gouge on the interior of a hollowform if it were possible to do so. Of course, scrapers are easier to use, but they do not leave a very good surface.

 

[Charles Hill]

I believe It more like hollowing tools Im interested in for hollowing small vases out that can buy Which seem all have carbide cutters on them

 

[Dale Miner]

I believe It more like hollowing tools Im interested in for hollowing small vases out that can buy Which seem all have carbide cutters on them

Michael Hosuluk sells hook tools made from hss. I bought one from him at the recent OVWG Symposium.

I don't' see them on his website, you may have to give him an email.

 

[john lucas]

John Jordan and David Ellsworth both sell hollowing tools that don't have carbide cutters. I use the John Jordan tools and love them. The cutters are easy to sharpen and or replace when needed.
http://www.johnjordanwoodturning.com/John_Jordan_Woodturning/Tools_and_More.html

 

[Charles Hill]

John hunter hurcules tool will that do vases 6 to 8 deep real well like the spindle you did in video

 

[Matthew Clarke]

Andre Martel also sells hook tools made of HSS that are easy to hone. When sharpening is required, he has a diamond bit that can sharpen the edge when the bit is mounted in a drill press.

Matt

 

[john lucas]

I have both a hook tool and the termite. They do work but I just have to stop and sharpen too often and beginners get a lot of catches. It's kind of a finess tool. Move your hands to much and you get a catch. Typically when hollowing vases I just use my bowl gouge. I tilt it to the left so the bottom wing is doing most of the cutting and cut from the center out. then I use a thick round nose scraper to clean up the sides.
Now I clean up the sides mostly with the Hunter #5 or the new Hunter Hercules. If you move the tool rest inside the vessel you can use the Hunter Hercules to go much deeper. I have a friend who is not a good turner but wanted to hollow a log 12" into end grain to make a vase. I was teaching a class to another student and didn't have time to work with him (he just stopped by) so I gave him the Hunter Hercules with about 5 minutes of instruction on how it's used and left him to it. He never did call me over for help and hollowed that whole thing to about 1/2" thick. It was about 7" across and 13" or 14" long. So the Hercules is easy to use.

 

[Bill Weaver]

I just got to say I'm a little scared of the rod shank hollowing tools. I have a Sorby something of the order that John Lucas showed in his attachment. I hate it! It causes me to white knuckle and cramp my wrist to do a job. I thought many times about doing something flat like a scraper.
I think it is a ring cutting tool with different bits I tried a scraper which is round and flat and is inter-changeable by a screw holding it on a flat shank. It worked pretty good...but still wasn't satisfied with the comfort.
Then a light bulb came on...duh...I have an old craftsman round nose flat blade scraper that was given to me that I reground so as to get the same cut from the side of blade as you would from the front. What the heck if I screw it up it was free and no money lost. Well to my surprise it works for me.
Now I'm not saying this is something you might want to do but it is something you might consider to raise your comfort level.
Somewhere in past posts I have read that some fellows have bought old files at flee markets and ground them to suit their needs in turning inside a vessel, this is another thought.
Good information on here for this subject keep it going fellows.

 

[john lucas]

I just spent a week as John Jordan's assistant and I have to say my comfort level with his tools has gone up. Practice is all it takes. Hollow a bunch of smaller things like Christmas ornaments and then small vessels and your comfort level will increase.
What I like about John and David's tools is the small cutter. It is less grabby than the bigger ones. I have a Sorby swan neck that has the larger cutters and it scares me to use it. I now only use it to clean up the ridges left by the smaller cutters. The smaller cutters don't leave ridges in experienced hands and I'm getting better but for now I do a final pass with a larger cutter to clean up the ridges if the inside of the vessel is seen.
If you want to truely get rid of the white knuckle get a captured bar system like Lyle Jamieson or Monster tool. On those you hollow with 2 fingers. It's very relaxing.

 

[hockenbery]

I just spent a week as John Jordan's assistant and I have to say my comfort level with his tools has gone up. Practice is all it takes. Hollow a bunch of smaller things like Christmas ornaments and then small vessels and your comfort level will increase.
What I like about John and David's tools is the small cutter. It is less grabby than the bigger ones. I have a Sorby swan neck that has the larger cutters and it scares me to use it. I now only use it to clean up the ridges left by the smaller cutters. The smaller cutters don't leave ridges in experienced hands and I'm getting better but for now I do a final pass with a larger cutter to clean up the ridges if the inside of the vessel is seen.
If you want to truely get rid of the white knuckle get a captured bar system like Lyle Jamieson or Monster tool. On those you hollow with 2 fingers. It's very relaxing.

The Trent Bosch tools are a design similar to the Jordan tools.
What I like about both is they fit the jamieson handle and a many other handles.

The Bosch tools are called zero clearance and there is nothing extra to hit the sidewall. Same could be said for the Jordan tools
I started out with tools that had a ring to hold the cutter. This could hit the sidewall and prevent a cut or hit something and push the tool somewhere it did not belong.

The near optimum size for a cutter is in the 3/16" range. A smaller cutter can be way too aggressive and cut through the sidewall before I can stop it.
1/4" and up are too grabby.

The Bosch tools also have an optional hunter carbide tips. don't know if Jordan tools have this option.

I use the Bosch tools and the jamieson handle.
Al

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Andre Martel also sells hook tools made of HSS that are easy to hone. When sharpening is required, he has a diamond bit that can sharpen the edge when the bit is mounted in a drill press.

Matt

It sounds like the hook tools that he makes must be very similar to mine. I use a conical diamond hone in my drill press to sharpen the inside of the hook. The diamond hone was actually made for sharpening mortising chisels, but is is a perfect fit for a hook tool as long as the hook is made circular.

 

[MichaelMouse]

No I have use uses one and love all advice you give me
How to use hook tool and best hook tool for me to buy

Hook tools with flats are quite stable on the rest, as I'm sure you know. Those who use them regularly have the skew angle designed in if they are going to be used close to centerline, because they can't rotate them as you do a Termite or round shank. Thus, you'll find the turners reaching low and across the bowl to get the same result. http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/the-craft/lathe-tools/ last few frames. Not many people use the hook tools any more, because they really are best suited to wet wood, and the surface was generally left as was or perhaps burnished a bit. No finish, no shine. A bowl to eat from.

A bit more instruction of something you might try if you have the metallurgical skills. http://www.aroundthewoods.com/hooktool.shtml

I hog with a pointy gouge, because I can do it without clogging the Termite ring tool. I use the Termite or a fingernail gouge at 9-11 o'clock to get the final surface. I had some of the round, gutter tools like the Hunter from my local machine shop, and found them to be an excellent choice as well. Only the narrowest of shapes appeared beyond their best work.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... A bit more instruction of something you might try if you have the metallurgical skills. http://www.aroundthewoods.com/hooktool.shtml

I'll agree with most of his instruction, but unless I am missing something, I think that his concept of tempering is all wrong. It appears to me that all he is doing is just putting a little oxidation on the steel from surface heating with the open flame and confusing the resulting color with what one would get by slow heat soaking at a relatively controlled temperature and time period. The fact that he quenched the steel again also bothered me.

While his masonry nail seemed to satisfy his need, my thought is that he is starting with a diameter that is a bit too small -- it would be too small for me, at any rate.