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finish gouge

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When making the finishing cut on the inside of a bowl would you use a V shaped tool or a U shaped tool. I will use a traditional grind.

Thanks,

Dave F.
 

odie

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When making the finishing cut on the inside of a bowl would you use a V shaped tool or a U shaped tool. I will use a traditional grind.

Thanks,

Dave F.

Dave......I have used both, and both will do the job. I'd give the edge to the "U" shaped flute, but I must stress that the interior inside side walls need a different grind than you would use on the very bottom of the interior.......but, there, it does depend on whether the very bottom is flat, or more sloped. The more flat the bottom interior, the more blunt of a grind is needed for best shearing action.

ooc
 

john lucas

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It's not about U or V it's about the sharpness angle of the tool, how it's presented to the wood an whether or not your force the cut or let the tool cut at the proper speed.
I know that's not a real definitive answer more like more questions. However there are so many different grinds and different ways people use the tools. If you find my post on tool grinds you will have at least some idea of what they look like.
I'm going to try and do a video some day soon on using the bowl gouge but it's so versatile and used so many different ways that I will probably only be able to show a few ways that I use the tool and certainly not all that is possible.
I find it's more important to have a sharp tool, present it to the wood at an angle that cuts clean and then don't force the cut.
 
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When making the finishing cut on the inside of a bowl would you use a V shaped tool or a U shaped tool. I will use a traditional grind.
Thanks,
Dave F.

Dave, I'm in agreement with John Lucas. A gouge with the Ellsworth (or Irish grind) generally works well on bowls with a gentle slope toward the bottom of the bowl because you can ride the small bevel on the nose of the gouge all the way to the center of the bowl. However, if you have a really sharp turn from the wall of the bowl to its bottom, the standard grind is more useful because (once again) you can ride the bevel all the way to the center of the bowl. Note that the angle of the bevel on the two gouges that I mentioned are very different. So, just get yourself, at least, one gouge that you can use as an alternate 'bottom gouge.' Whether the flute is parabolic, V-shaped, or U-shape is probably going to be more of a personal preference on your part. The geometry of the tip is much more important.

Matt
 
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When making the finishing cut on the inside of a bowl would you use a V shaped tool or a U shaped tool. I will use a traditional grind.

I like the broadest sweep gouge I can get for the finishing cuts. It allows me to shear at the cut while skewing the tool to bridge ridges that I might have left when scooping out with the deep gouge. Where possible I keep it at a very low pitch angle so it slices. You can actually remove stock pretty aggressively this way short of your final pass(es). Depending on contour, that pitch may have to increase to a near "shear scrape" across the bottom, though with short handles you can often drop a lot and follow an arc upward to maintain your skew and a relatively low pitch.

You can use the same technique in a limited way with a conventional bowl gouge with a U bottom and fingernail grind better than a V, but the sweet spot is very narrow. If you cut inside on the wings of a gouge rather than the nose, you can do nearly as well, except you leave yourself the problem of the handle in the way, and increase the possibility of a catch.
 
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Thank you for the replies.

A couple more questions. Is a 40 degree angle in the ball park on the standard grind? Do you find a wider tool is better? By that I mean a 5/8 inch gauge compared to a 1/4 inch gauge on a 12 inch plus width? It seems unless you have a very steady hand the 1/4 inch leaves more ridges than a wider tool does.

Having said that I liked the comment, "sweet spot" as it explains a lot. But would the sweet spot on a 1/4 inch gauge be the same width as the sweet spot on a 5/8 inch tool? Maybe the mass of the larger tool would allow for a smoother cut?

Thanks again for helping me understand.

Dave F.
 
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I get the cleanest cuts with a bevel rubbing high shear angle cut. To rub the bevel, a 40 degree bevel works fine for going down the side of the bowl, but it can't make the transition at the bottom of the bowl, nor can it go across the bottom. Here you need a 60 degree bevel or so. I also grind away about half of the heel, or bottom of the bevel. By smoothing this out/rounding it over, you will not bruise the wood, which is more of a problem with wet wood.

My favorite tool for doing this has become the fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson. It has a more ) shaped nose profile, which can give you a high shear angle (scraper flat on the tool rest has 0 shear angle, a gouge on the side has maybe a 45 degree angle). The V gouges tend to work better if you drop/lower the handle and roll the tool to the side to cut with the wings. The more C shaped flutes tend to work better if you roll them on their side, and hold the tool more level. It is harder to drop the handle when you turn the inside of the bowl because the rim of the bowl can get in the way.

robo hippy
 
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Having said that I liked the comment, "sweet spot" as it explains a lot. But would the sweet spot on a 1/4 inch gauge be the same width as the sweet spot on a 5/8 inch tool? Maybe the mass of the larger tool would allow for a smoother cut?

Actually, it could be as large. It's the sweep, not the absolute width that extends the spot sweet.

Hippy gives the conventional response by assuming that rubbing the bevel means nose to heel. Doesn't have to be. Matter of fact, better if not, given the variable grind many employ. If you get a bit of shear in the cut, then skew the gouge to the direction of travel, what you just cut will support the next point parallel to the edge, and thus along until you feather the top of the shaving as the gouge exits the wood.

This one's wet, but you can see the combination beginning right after the entry. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/12_1024.jpg

A shot from nearly perpendicular to the direction of travel showing the width and type of shaving you can produce. It's dry. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Forged-in-Use.jpg

Dry shavings from my 1" gouge. Taking some major thickness off, but the shaving is still formed right. See the feathered exit side? Best if you can slip out of the wood with just a wisp at the last. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/ShavingWide.jpg

Angle of the grind? No definite idea, but I like to keep them a bit longer than 1.5 x the thickness. Guess that leaves less than 45 degrees. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Bevels.jpg

Caveat: This does not work well at Mach 2. Your objective is to advance, making a continuous shaving. I find that 8-11 times per second rotation is within my capabilities.
 
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I did a comparison test on some soft punky maple in my shop with every lathe tool I could, and every cut I could think of, from straight scraping cut, bevel rubbing cut with a scraper and all my gouges, non bevel cuts, shear scraper cuts with burrs both from the grinder, and burnished. The best results came from rubbing the bevel, and a high shear angle. This was hands down winner. The tool didn't matter. I tried the same cuts with some figured myrtle which was solid. The bevel rubbing cut still won, but barely. If you haven't tried Myrtle (california bay laurel), it has an interlocking grain, and is pretty hard. On wet wood, there was no distinguishing difference that could be felt or seen.

robo hippy
 

hockenbery

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robo hippy said:
The best results came from rubbing the bevel, and a high shear angle. This was hands down winner.

robo hippy

Absolutely! As you pointed out on some woods there is not much difference between the best cut 2nd, 3rd, fourth place.

Punky wood is the ultimate test of tools, patience and skill.

Rotating the flute on a bowl gouge used in a push cut from level to about 45 degrees gives a much improved cut. Higher angle

Flat wood folk know jointing at 45 degrees is a much cleaner cut. Planing at 45 is cleaner.

Have fun,
Al
 
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Absolutely!
Rotating the flute on a bowl gouge used in a push cut from level to about 45 degrees gives a much improved cut. Higher angle

Flat wood folk know jointing at 45 degrees is a much cleaner cut. Planing at 45 is cleaner.

The "normal" pitch of a bench plane is 45 degrees. Higher pitch angles are said to produce better surfaces on squirrely woods by some, while others tout the low angle bevel up planes for the same. All concur that skewing to the direction of travel improves the cut. The best cut would come from a skewed edge. The lathe brings the wood to the edge continuously. Thus, when skewing, you may take advantage of the phenomenon which allows you to safely test the keenness of an edge by running your finger across it, while running along the edge would send you to the band-aids.
 

john lucas

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Al I've been playing with a flute up push cut using a traditional grind that is somewhere between the roughing gouge U shaped wings and the Stewart Batty slightly swept back wings.
The wood is going past the edge at a very steep angle so it's a very clean cut. I've also wondered if having the flute engage the wood just below the cut in this example helps. It's hard to tell because at this level of cutting the differences is so minute. It appears cleaner but then you'd need some sort of surface measurement tool to really tell.
 

hockenbery

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John,
Trent Bosh uses a split personality 3/8 gouge as his bowl finishing tool
Right side is a traditional grind. Used flute straight up on the outside of the bowl foot to rim it it leave a clean cut surface. The cutting angle is near vertical
Left side is ground similar to the Ellsworth. It is used flute up on the inside of the bowl in basically the shear cut Ellsworth teaches.

I do a lot of flute up cuts with the Ellsworth gouge both outside and inside bowls. Result is a very clean cut.
It is something I teach. In addition to the steeper angle it shortens the bevel contact reducing the bevel drag.
It is an advanced cut that takes some practice and is best learned from someone.
Hopefully no one runs out to their shop an stick a gouge flute up into a bowl.

I learned this technique from Liam O'neil.

Al
 
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Spindle Finishing Cut

I was shown a final, finishing cut for the inside of bowls or platters using a spindle gouge ground in a fingernail shape with the heel ground off and a small secondary bevel at the cutting edge. Using a very light touch and at almost a vertical angle, this is a very fine shear cut that I've found can result in starting with 320 grit for sanding. It also really works well for soft or punky wood, but remember to use a very light touch.

The angle of the secondary bevel can be adjusted to a "flatter" angle for going across the bottom of a deeper bowl without cutting in too far. This gouge then becomes a dedicated finishing cut tool unless you take the secondary bevel back off. Don't try to use it as a standard spindle gouge with the secondary bevel on it.

Just another option that might work well for some. :D
 

odie

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I was shown a final, finishing cut for the inside of bowls or platters using a spindle gouge ground in a fingernail shape with the heel ground off and a small secondary bevel at the cutting edge. Using a very light touch and at almost a vertical angle, this is a very fine shear cut that I've found can result in starting with 320 grit for sanding. It also really works well for soft or punky wood, but remember to use a very light touch.

The angle of the secondary bevel can be adjusted to a "flatter" angle for going across the bottom of a deeper bowl without cutting in too far. This gouge then becomes a dedicated finishing cut tool unless you take the secondary bevel back off. Don't try to use it as a standard spindle gouge with the secondary bevel on it.

Just another option that might work well for some. :D

Jeff.......If you can manage a photo shot of this grind you describe, I , for one, would be interested is seeing what you have there.........

thanks

ooc
 

john lucas

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Odie I think my Thompson detail gouges are ground to what it sounds like Jeff has. If I remember I'll take a photo this weekend and post it.
 
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While John looks, you can check out a couple treatments here. Ellsworth and Fairfield round rather like carving tools are often done. http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

Others use what was the first attempt to work around the clearance angle problem that came with cylindrical gouges. http://d-waytools.com/images/tools-gouges/bowl-gouge-lg.jpg

Then there's a third way. I just use gouges with uniform thickness and grind the same angle all the way. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Bevels.jpg After the choice of gouge, the turner merely has to drop that "ride the bevel" myth and give a bit of a clearance angle, even if it means increasing the pitch. As long as conditions permit a bit of skew, the tool is stable. If no space for skewing, rolling the tool nearly on edge allows a shear.
 
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I prefer to use a gouge with a grind most similar to the "bottom feeder" gouge in MM's post. I have a P&N 5/8" "supa-bowl gouge" with a roughly 70deg. bevel, with the heel of the gouge ground way back so the bevel is only about 3/16" wide. This simply gives the best surface possible that I've been able to achieve. I have yet to try a "fluteless" gouge, but I have a thompson tool that has roughly 1/2" of flute left that will get purpose re-ground to the task.
 
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While finishing bowl bottoms, a spindle gouge does work quite well, and does achieve a near-skew cut surface. But, in finishing the interior of bowls, I prefer to use a round gouge instead of a forged spindle gouge due to the higher stability when the the gouge extends far off the tool rest. Like the other gouges pictured above, Mine is a "bottom feeder" grind, more or less a traditional grind with the heel ground way back. Here are a couple shots of the bevel, and the 3/4" round bar extension I turned to increase its reach over the tool rest. I prefer a pretty blunt grind here, others may differ.


EDIT: I'm sorry the pictures were so large--I have no idea why. They're from a cell phone camera, and have never showed up this large before!!

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john lucas

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Sorry I haven't photographed mine. I've barely been home lately. Have another late night tonight and tomorrow night. My favorite tool for bowl bottoms where my 40 degree gouge won't get to is a Hunter #4 or #5. If you use the same angle measure we use to describe bowl gouges the tip with bevel rubbing is 82 degrees so you can get to the bottom of very steep bowls. The sharpeness angle of the cutting edge is somewhere around 30 degrees so it cuts incredibly clean. It is a very hard carbide so you can't sharpen it but it stays sharp a very long time.
http://www.hunterwoodturningtool.com/
 
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While finishing bowl bottoms, a spindle gouge does work quite well, and does achieve a near-skew cut surface. But, in finishing the interior of bowls, I prefer to use a round gouge instead of a forged spindle gouge due to the higher stability when working off the tool rest.

Off the rest? Is that really what it seems to say?

John's Hunter tools are the equivalent of the turned burr scraper described in the thread above, and though they provide a pretty narrow contact area, will do a slick job if you swing them on your toolrest fulcrum, more or less as you do with uneven surfaces. Not a great tool for fairing a surface because they don't have a lot of reference to keep things stable and the shaving constant. Larger radii would do better.
 
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Hey Nate, that gouge is getting both "long in tooth" and short in flute. You wil soon have an authentic fluteless bowl gouge! :)

Actually, I think most sizes of today's spindle gouges I think are all machined from round stock just like bowl gouges. The difference is in the flutes--they are of different depths and profiles. I do have one 1 1/4" so-called German spindle gouge that is definitely forged. I use it as a roughing gouge as well as for some finer things on larger spindle pieces.
 

john lucas

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MM I disagree about the fairing of the surface. Your on the bevel and it's actually longer than some of the new Mike Mahoney tools. You control the cut with the handle from about 15" away on my tools so I can get an extremely smooth consistent arc. Same is true for inside a bowl.
Take a closer look at one of the cutters. There isn't a burr and it's almost razor sharp with a 30 degree angle. These are very clean cutting tools when used properly.
 
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Take a closer look at one of the cutters. There isn't a burr and it's almost razor sharp with a 30 degree angle. These are very clean cutting tools when used properly.

The cutter is the burr, or what we would call the burr (or hook) if we had turned it on a cabinet scraper. http://www.woodworkinghistory.com/glossary_scraper.htm It is in reality a low-angle cutter, with an action similar to the old hook tools, and it benefits, as they did, by a larger radius when fairing a surface. Larger allows a broader area of contact for less depth of cut. Same principle I exploit with the broad sweep gouges, where the cut produces a wide, thin shaving because it deepens the cut progressively from initial point of contact through separation. There's a good proportion of slide with the gouge skewed. We all know what that means. Don't run your finger along the razor's edge, just across it!

I used the same cutter and similar on my Stewart tool years back as I experimented with "hollow forms," though they were used almost broad into the rotation, not skewed. My machine shop had a number of different sizes and configurations, from a triangle which would flatten a platter to larger circles which could be used skewed on curved surfaces.

The termite, for those who own them, is the equivalent of an in-cannel gouge, so it wedges in and digs too hard for best control, even though it does come in a larger diameter than the Hunter.
 
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