FIRST Lathe, Which One? HELP!

[William Merryfield]

Hi, I have NEVER turned a bowl in my life. For some reason i am really drawn to turning bowls, and have been obsessed in finding a good cheap lathe, and turning some bowls. I own a reproduction country furniture company, Primitiques, Ltd., and have been buying my bowls from the Holland Bowl Mill for years now, beating the bowls up and painting them. I am just tired of paying $30 for a 17" beech bowl, so decided to just turn my own bowls. I can't wait to pick up some dead, fallen trees, but em' up, and turn them. I need advice. What kind of lathe should I buy, I only want to spend about $350 tops, then upgrade once I get better. I've tried Craigslist, ebay, etc. After reading a ton of stuff, it seems like a Jet mini VS is the way to go, and not that $200 mini lathe, people complain about the resting tool thing and it's poor power. I'm in Philadelphia area, so if anyone can point me in the right direction, or to the right website I would appreciate it. I read the article on here for newbies, and it was great. Anyone here ever join a woodturners club, is it helpful, or is taking a class helpful. One of my woodworkers turns expensive woods, and said, don't take a class, just "turn" and you'll find your way.
Thanks for any advice, and I look forward to learning from this website, today is my first day. Thanks, Bill

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hi, I have NEVER turned a bowl in my life. For some reason i am really drawn to turning bowls, and have been obsessed in finding a good cheap lathe, and turning some bowls. I own a reproduction country furniture company, Primitiques, Ltd., and have been buying my bowls from the Holland Bowl Mill for years now, beating the bowls up and painting them. I am just tired of paying $30 for a 17" beech bowl, so decided to just turn my own bowls. I can't wait to pick up some dead, fallen trees, but em' up, and turn them. I need advice. What kind of lathe should I buy, I only want to spend about $350 tops, then upgrade once I get better. I've tried Craigslist, ebay, etc. After reading a ton of stuff, it seems like a Jet mini VS is the way to go, and not that $200 mini lathe, people complain about the resting tool thing and it's poor power. I'm in Philadelphia area, so if anyone can point me in the right direction, or to the right website I would appreciate it. I read the article on here for newbies, and it was great. Anyone here ever join a woodturners club, is it helpful, or is taking a class helpful. One of my woodworkers turns expensive woods, and said, don't take a class, just "turn" and you'll find your way.
Thanks for any advice, and I look forward to learning from this website, today is my first day. Thanks, Bill

A 17 inch bowl for $30 is really a bargain.

Your total budget is really too limited. You can get a mini lathe, but no tools for $350. You will need a scroll chuck, live center, various turning tools, a sharpening system, and the list goes on and on and on .....

The jet mini is a good lathe, but if you want to turn bowls, then the VS is the wrong choice. The VS is OK for pens, bottle stoppers, and a multitude of smaller things, but is way underpowered for bowl turning. The six speed Jet is much better, but is still a bit marginal on power when it comes to turning bowls. Also, in practical terms, the bowls turned on a mini lathe will be 8 inches and under although you might be able to go 9 inches. Don't forget that you also need other things like a bandsaw and chain saw.

I suspect that many of the folks who frequent this forum belong to a local club and probably most of the folks here also belong to the AAW.

Your woodworker who told you to "just turn" and not bother with taking a class gave you the worst advice imaginable which is likely to cause you to become quickly discouraged with turning. It is a horrible idea for you to reinvent the wheel rather than having a good instructor get you going with a jump start in the right direction.

I got into woodturning just over seven years ago when I retired and have found it to be an addictive hobby, but there are some significant up-front costs for tools and especially the lathe. One of the benefits of joining a club is that the people there can help steer you towards the right equipment and away from some of the worthless junk which abounds on eBay and CraigsList. While there is an occasional bargain, the unsuspecting buyer is unlikely to make a wise decision.

 

[William Merryfield]

Thanks!

VERY helpful info. Isn't VS the way to go for bowl turning though, so you don't have to stop and change belts. What do you turn with, if I may ask? Bill

 

[ebrannon]

lathe

I want to second all Bill's comments. Woodturning, and making your own objects, is about creating things - something fundamentally human. I do not think it is really going to save you money over the $30 bowls, but you will get a lot of enjoyment making them yourself.

If your path is anything like mine (and given your interests, probably a good chance) you will get "hooked" and grow into this craft. It does take a sizable investment, but you can also do a lot with a limited set of tools.

I started by taking a 5 day course at Peters Valley Craft Center - which is a few hours north of Philadelphia and offers some outstanding courses for beginners. Or find our local turing club and start attending meetings.

You can find some decent lathes used, but you have to be willing to wait. Best source may be the local woodturning club. I started with a small Jet VS mini lathe (and I still have it) but soon jumped up to a larger lathe, now I have a full size lathe that can handle large objects.

Good luck!

Ed

 

[Bill Boehme]

VERY helpful info. Isn't VS the way to go for bowl turning though, so you don't have to stop and change belts. What do you turn with, if I may ask? Bill

If you had a big powerful expensive lathe, then VS would be a "nice to have" feature, but certainly not essential. On a small mini lathe like the Jet, the variable speed model uses a DC motor with a variable voltage controller to adjust the speed. The downside of that type of variable speed is that it has very little power at the slower speeds and only outputs full power at full speed. Now for the even worse news: When it comes to turning bowls, you need plenty of power at the slowest speeds and you will never turn a bowl at anything even remotely approaching the full speed. Variable speed is great for pen turners because they need to change speed frequently. For bowl turning, I may change speed twice at the most. I have a 6 speed Jet mini -- it is a very simple matter to move the belt one one position to another -- I can do it in about ten seconds if I take my time and do not get in a hurry -- If I am in a hurry then maybe five seconds.

I presume that you mean what turning tools I use during bowl turning -- here is what I generally use:

• half-inch bowl gouge with swept back grind
• another bowl gouge with steeper grind angle
• radius nose scraper
• square nose scraper
• narrow kerf parting tool
• bedan
• various other tools depending on what I need to do

I also have a large Delta 1440 lathe, but it is on its deathbed so I might put it on CraigsList.

I have sort-of implied approval (although not directly stated) from management to go for a Powermatic 3520B. However, I am looking for a way to present a business case for a Robust as a more viable option (it doesn't hurt to dream).

Besides all of the stuff that one needs to learn about turning and sharpening tools, there is also a lot to learn about handling wood. You can't just cut down a tree and turn the wood nor pick up a piece off the ground and turn it without first determining things like its dryness level and structural integrity. Wood moves as it dries so the time to complete a bowl from start to finish might be months if the wood starts out wet.

Woodturning is very enjoyable and relaxing and it is easy to become addicted to the hobby. However, if your interest is motivated by the thought of saving money, that probably won't happen.

 

[Allen Howell]

From one newbie to another...

I would go for a midi, not a mini, unless you are turning pens, ornaments, etc., which is not what you said you wanted to do. The comment about the lathe being just the start is right. I have heard the phrase "Your first pen (or bowl) will cost $1,000." You can get by with somewhat less than that if you really pay attention to sales and check all the vendors for prices, but not much. I would recommend starting with decent gouges but there are so many excellent gouge manufacturers out there that making an uninformed decision about a $80-120 tool doesn't make sense to me. I started out with Benjamin's Best tools from Penn State (disclaimer: I am not affilliated with any product or service I mention here) and am slowly moving to Sorby/Thompson/etc. as my budget allows. Bill has a good list going, but for a beginner, I think the list can be narrowed to:

larger roughing gouge (if you're not buying rounded bowl blanks)
half-inch bowl gouge with swept back grind
another bowl gouge with steeper grind angle
radius nose scraper
narrow kerf parting tool

I have taken the Woodcraft basic woodturning and bowl turning classes and have joined 2 clubs and seen several demonstrations. I think that all of that has gone a long way to improving my skills, especially the David Ellsworth one-day demo I attended last weekend. Seeing others with years of experience turn can improve your understanding significantly, at least they have mine. Not having some hands-on help can e worse because you can develop dangerous, or at worst, bad habits.

Oh, yeah, I have been turning for 3 months, now. Hope this rambling has been helpful.

 

[Dave W]

William,


This is copied and pasted from my reply in the newbie sections where your other post is running. Not sure where you would look first


Turning just kind of sucks you in once you start. When asked, I always recommend buying the biggest one can afford. With that said a mini is a good starter lathe, but you will tire of it's limitations quickly. Having a Powermatic would be great, but cost is usually prohibitive for a beginner. I'm thinking something more in the middle would be worth considering...... The Nova 1624-44: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/202...ood-Lathe.aspx You don't get the electronic variable speed, but the step pulley system allows for lower start speeds than the typical reeves drive systems. Belt positioning time is very quick with this lathe, max diameter bowl would be around 15 1/2" ( 15 7/8" with bandsaw blank ), 1.5 hp motor. Keep in mind it also goes on sale a couple times a year in the $900.00 range. Choosing a lathe is tough, just don't jump the gun and get something you will regret a year down the road.

BTW- I have a Jet 1642, not my dream lathe, but it will do for the time being
Edit/Delete Message

 

[Robert Manning]

William,
Can you direct me to the 17" bowls for thirty bucks.

 

[MichaelMouse]

William,
Can you direct me to the 17" bowls for thirty bucks.

Been a while, but even the seconds went for twice that in beech, last I saw 'em. Unfinished, at that. Watching the old machinery work is worth a stop anytime, even if you don't buy.

Been out there Gretch?

 

[Tom Hamilton]

1st Lathe

I have sort-of implied approval (although not directly stated) from management to go for a Powermatic 3520B. However, I am looking for a way to present a business case for a Robust as a more viable option (it doesn't hurt to dream).

Hold out for the Robust = You will NEVER EVER regret it.

$30 for a 17" bowls is a great price, I'd like to know where their from too.

I started tuning in August of 2009. I started with a China made 2hp 18" swing lathe, and have since upgraded due to two things. I was running the China made lathe out of power turning bowls (yes the gouges where sharp), and the motor control electronics broke down 4 days after warrentee ran out.

So I bought a lathe that doesn't run out of power and has a warrentee that's 7 times longer.

I learned early on (as I was being sucked into the woodturning vortex) that you get what you pay for with woodturning.

I too am in the process of upgrading many of my tools to the Sorby or Thompson grade of tools. After you take a few classes and work with your local club members you figure out quickly good tools cost a little more. But you can save yourself some money by buying tools without handles. Then you get the fun of making handles yourself.

 

[Steven Antonucci]

Reality check here:

17" bowls for $30 and you want to beat it on cost by doing it yourself? Without lessons? On a lathe that cost under $350?

Good luck with that...

 

[Wipedout]

Here is some good reading as well

http://www.nealaddy.org/node/39

 

[Rick M]

When it comes down to a newbie learning to sharpen, don't discount the value of less well known, less costly HSS gouges, scrapers, and skews often available in sets from places like already mentioned, Harbor Freight, and elsewhere.

I'd MUCH rather practice or try out a slightly different grind on one of my early cheap turning tools than my later additions from highly regarded makers.

Otherwise, I concur with those who suggest you don't "go it on your own" to get started. Even better (if applicable), bring your spouse to some club meetings or other gatherings where turned works are on display. Best way in the world to get their support for your new endeavors.

 

[Bill Boehme]

......larger roughing gouge (if you're not buying rounded bowl blanks)......

Your suggestions are all good except for the one about using a roughing gouge to initially round the wood. Roughing gouges are for end grain turning and not face grain turning. If you go after a piece of wood that has intermittent gaps and oriented for face grain turning with a roughing gouge, you are asking for a very serious mishap at the slightest movement into a gap with the cutting edge of the tool.

 

[hockenbery]

I strongly suggest you get some lessons before tackling a 17" bowl.
You can get hurt quite badly on big work. a 17" beech blank will be at least 60 pounds and maybe 80. Turning a lot of 17" bowls you'll want a 24" lathe( with a band saw you might get by with a 20" lathe)

That first 17" bowl is likely to cost you $10,000
$700 for a chain saw with 24" bar
$700 lessons or $3000 bandsaw
$5-7000 lathe
$350 Grinder setup
$250 Bowl gouge, Spindel gouge, Round nose scraper
$100 angle drill, 3" sanding discs. mandrels
$300 for chuck and #3 Jaws

There is also the time. Most beginning students need about 3 hours to finish a 12" bowl. A 17" bowl might take a beginner 4-5 hours.
The good news is the 31st bowl should come off the lathe in 15 to 20 minutes.

You may be one of the rare individuals who can just pick up a gouge and make it work for you.

The last one I saw was an 8 year old who took on of our classes.
He needed help with design. When we were making gavel heads he turned his 2x2 block down to a 1/4 inch diameter while the rest of the kids where just getting theirs round.

good luck

 

[Dean Center]

I am learning on a Jet 1014VS and ironically use a Delta 1440 club lathe. I agree with all you've heard. I don't know why, but everyone forgets the cost of the ER visit you'll need when you're learning to use that chain saw. So add another $300-500 for that. And face shield, dust mask, dust collection ....

If you're looking to save money, that $30 bowl is rock bottom. If you think you're going to love wood turning, welcome to the pool.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Your suggestions are all good except for the one about using a roughing gouge to initially round the wood. Roughing gouges are for end grain turning and not face grain turning. If you go after a piece of wood that has intermittent gaps and oriented for face grain turning with a roughing gouge, you are asking for a very serious mishap at the slightest movement into a gap with the cutting edge of the tool.

You might say that, OR, you might learn how to use the tool. More fun that way.

How's that about face grain? Tapering the ends of the spindle presents the same wood/tool relationship as a bowl blank, only a tiny arc substitutes for some of the skewed angle on the spindle.

 

[Bill Boehme]

You might say that, OR, you might learn how to use the tool. More fun that way.

How's that about face grain? Tapering the ends of the spindle presents the same wood/tool relationship as a bowl blank, only a tiny arc substitutes for some of the skewed angle on the spindle.

My comments were directed as advice primarily towards someone who has little to no experience -- not someone who has been around the spindle a time or two, although it remains good advice to all without going into all of the but's, if's, and however's of the matter. There are no absolutes in turning and I am sure that more than one turner has gone after the inside of a bowl with a skew. Doing interrupted cuts with a roughing gouge is risky business when a large diameter like a bowl is involved. There is no spindle analog to this (I don't want to hear about architectural columns).

Finesse is only a concept on the horizon for a beginner not something in his tool bag.

 

[William Merryfield]

bowlsavers

What about Bowlsavers to make bowls easily?

 

[Steven Antonucci]

What about Bowlsavers to make bowls easily?

Nope, it doesn't quite work out that way. If you want to make your own bowls, expect to spend a year learning how and the first hundred being unsellable.

No short cuts here. You could go to YouTube and look up the Holland Bowl Mill video to see what they do and make something like it, but you'd have to do an enormous volume of bowls per year to be price competitive with them.

S

 

[Gynia]

Nope, it doesn't quite work out that way. If you want to make your own bowls, expect to spend a year learning how and the first hundred being unsellable.

Unless you use carbide tools. The learning curve is very short and best of all there is no sharpening (;->)


Yes this is a joke.

 

[Steve Sloan]

What about Bowlsavers to make bowls easily?

If it was really that easy then everyone would be turning bowls like mad. All the advice given here has been good. Expect to spend a lot more money than you initially thought. I've been turning about 3 years and am just now finally able to turn a good sized bowl quickly that has a nice continual arc shape both inside and out. My first bowls (and I'm sure a lot turners early bowls) looked like dog bowls...relatively straight sides and bad transition areas. It takes hours of practice on a variety of woods with different tools before you can turn out a decent bowl in a short period of time. But it's fun and addictive and you'll enjoy every minute (well almost every minute )

 

[MichaelMouse]

Unless you use carbide tools. The learning curve is very short and best of all there is no sharpening (;->)


Yes this is a joke.

Weakness in using carbide and other composition scrapers is making that fair curve. If you have the tool referencing to where it's been as an aid to where it's going, it's easier. Curves are a game of swings, not pushes. The fair curve is also the strength of the broad sweep constant angle grind gouge.

Agree that the learning curve is easier.

 

[John Van Domelen]

@Steve - dog bowls - that's great and a good laugh - and to think I missed a marketing opportunity for all those early bowls of mine...

 

[Steven Antonucci]

Unless you use carbide tools. The learning curve is very short and best of all there is no sharpening (;->)


Yes this is a joke.

And a good one.

I'm not sure if I also get credit for dog dishes, but it's another one of my sayings.

Dog Dishes and UFO's (hollowforms)

Now if you had a laser...

 

[n7bsn]

Steve
I've heard the phrase "Dog Dish Form" before too
(and yes, I've made them also)

 

[hockenbery]

dog dish

Phil Brown who is the master of elegant trumpet shaped bowls began a demo circa 1995 recounting his "Classic Dog bowl" phase.

the dog dish holds many superlative in bowldom
largest inside volume -
if form follows function the dog dish wins for holding capacity
outside shape easiest to turn
inside hardest to turn
most difficult to dry without cracking
most stable on the table

It is a natural outcome of using tools like gouges that cut straight lines.

Using round trees we can get the largest bowl following the curvature of the tree. I've grown to appreciate cuirves more than straight lines.

The worlds still has space for another a well turned dog dish.

-Al

 

[odie]

I can remember making a few "dog bowls" for my first efforts on the lathe. If you snoop around some of the nooks and crannys of my 90yr old Mother's home, you still might find one or two of these! It's a shape many of us get when struggling to just complete a bowl.....let alone having any hope for artistic expression!

It's a truncated cone shape, sort of like this: \___/



ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

I can remember making a few "dog bowls" for my first efforts on the lathe. If you snoop around some of the nooks and crannys of my 90yr old Mother's home, you still might find one or two of these! It's a shape many of us get when struggling to just complete a bowl.....let alone having any hope for artistic expression!

It's a truncated cone shape, sort of like this: \___/



ooc

or even something like this: |____| Woof! Woof!

 

[odie]

or even something like this: |____| Woof! Woof!

Yep, I seem to remember a few of those, too.....Heh,heh,heh!

ooc

 

[waltben]

So what do all these later responses have to do with the original post?

 

[Steven Antonucci]

So what do all these later responses have to do with the original post?

about as much as this one