First segmented bowl completed. Advice and comments appreciated.

[Mark Hepburn]

This is my first segmented bowl (and the 13th bowl I've turned). As you can see from the photos, having some problems. Some I see and probably some the expert eyes will see that I don't. And I know the photos are less than stellar but that's the best I have at the moment. I'm researching that too (and thanks Bill and John for your helpful posts).

I'm thick-skinned enough to take honest criticism so fire away please. And thank you.

The ring at the top is separating as shown, and I know it was clamped and tight when turned. So I'm guessing this is wood movement, which I don't really know how to account for in this case. This separation also is evident in other rings.

There is tearout along the base especially. I use sharp, quality tools and take light passes but can't seem to overcome it. This is the final result even after heavy sanding starting with 80 grit and going through to 1200.

I buffed it using the Beall buffs: tripoli, diamond and the carnauba wax, which is the finish you see (although I used a 2 part epoxy product to waterproof the inside of the bowl - mistake).



LOML thinks the bowl is perfect, and boy do I love her for saying that! But the goal is improvement so thanks again for your time and comments
Mark

 

[Dwight R Rutherford]

Here is where I would go for answers. http://tahoeturner.com/

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Here is where I would go for answers. http://tahoeturner.com/

Thanks Dwight. I saw some of Mr. Tibbets' work on a Tim Yoder show (at an AAW symposium I believe) and it was astounding. I appreciate the link.

Mark

 

[Bill Boehme]

The reason that the glue joints are coming apart is that end grain glue ups are very weak and any wood movement can cause the joint to fail. I think that the best thing to do is read Malcolm Tibbetts book, "The Art of Segmented Woodturning". The book will answer most of your questions on the basics of how to make segmented glue up rings. Basically, you need to orient the wood so that you will not be gluing end grain joints. The tearout may be due to using your gouge like a scraper rather than a cutting tool.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I also noticed from the pictures that the joints are not tight. It appears that the saw blade is not perfectly square to the table. The first thing may be to do a tune up on the saw. There are also cutting tricks to compensate for slight out of square conditions. The miter angles are also very critical. You will need to fine tune your cutting jig to get the angles so that there aren't any gaps when you assemble a ring.

 

[hockenbery]

Mark,

Pretty good for a first attempt.

One caution is to avoid having solid wood for the bottom glued to a ring.
The bottom wood needs to be segments with similar grain alignment to the segments in the rings so the movement is in the same direction as the other rings
or
Attached in floating joint so it can move independently.
I'm sure you find that comment in Malcolm's book

Al

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Al, Bill:

Thanks very much. Yes, I see what you're saying about end grain glue ups. And I will definitely get out the dial gauge and check that the TS is more precisely square to the fence and the blade to the table.

I also didn't consider the issue of gluing a solid base to the assembly. I certainly wouldn't glue a table top down, so I understand what you are saying. It really didn't seem to me that the movement across a small area like that could be a factor but it does make sense.

I confess; as a new turner I find myself often using the gouge as a scraper. Mea culpa . So light passes but with the proper gouge orientation should solve the tearout you think?

And finally, I found Malcolm Tibbets' book on Amazon, which I will pick up for sure. How about his videos? I went to his website and see that he has several and he has a "Getting Started" title. Anyone have any thoughts on his videos?

Again, many thanks. Much appreciated.

Mark

 

[Jerry Bailey]

for segmenting, and to talk to Malcolm himself, go here
http://www.segmentedwoodturners.org/
it's a chapter of AAW, the advice you'll get from there is well worth the annual fees/dues

I have his book, and 5 of his dvd's , and can attest to the quality of training he presents
You'll learn almost everything you need to know from them
but the site is also valuable so you can get "real time" answers to issues/problems

As stated by others, it seems your joints aren't clean and tight, if you have a chop/radial arm saw
you might consider using that to cut your segments instead, you can get better alignment from that than a tablesaw ;-)
His book explains the differences and issues trying to glue end grains and face grains together,
hence, one of your problems with them pulling apart ........

as for the solid base, general consensus is no larger than 3-4" ....

 

[Bill Boehme]

If you are getting dust and crumbs rather than shavings then there are two things to check. First as previously mentioned using a gouge to scrape can be the culprit although it is possible to get shavings while scraping once you learn to do it really well. The second thing to check is the tool sharpness. Even if it feels sharp it may not be sharp enough. If you find that you have to apply some pressure to get the tool to cut, then it is dull. Scraping with a gouge will dull the edge quickly so it is likely that you have both issues going against you. Glue joints can dull an edge rather quickly so that is something to keep in mind while turning a segmented piece. In some situations you may need to resharpen an edge as often as once a minute. If you haven't had any training in sharpening turning tools, I would recommend getting one or two DVDs on the subject if you are not close to a turning club where you could get some hands-on help. Alan Lacer has some good sharpening information on his DVDs. The AAW also has a DVD on sharpening.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

for segmenting, and to talk to Malcolm himself, go here
http://www.segmentedwoodturners.org/
it's a chapter of AAW, the advice you'll get from there is well worth the annual fees/dues

I have his book, and 5 of his dvd's , and can attest to the quality of training he presents
You'll learn almost everything you need to know from them
but the site is also valuable so you can get "real time" answers to issues/problems

As stated by others, it seems your joints aren't clean and tight, if you have a chop/radial arm saw
you might consider using that to cut your segments instead, you can get better alignment from that than a tablesaw ;-)
His book explains the differences and issues trying to glue end grains and face grains together,
hence, one of your problems with them pulling apart ........

as for the solid base, general consensus is no larger than 3-4" ....

Jerry, thanks for the link and the recommendation on the DVDs. Yes, I have a bosch axial miter saw. I find that it's very accurate and I built a station and mounted it with rules and flip stops, etc...

I'm going to consider joining the forum over at segmentedwoodturners.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

If you are getting dust and crumbs rather than shavings then there are two things to check. First as previously mentioned using a gouge to scrape can be the culprit although it is possible to get shavings while scraping once you learn to do it really well. The second thing to check is the tool sharpness. Even if it feels sharp it may not be sharp enough. If you find that you have to apply some pressure to get the tool to cut, then it is dull. Scraping with a gouge will dull the edge quickly so it is likely that you have both issues going against you. Glue joints can dull an edge rather quickly so that is something to keep in mind while turning a segmented piece. In some situations you may need to resharpen an edge as often as once a minute. If you haven't had any training in sharpening turning tools, I would recommend getting one or two DVDs on the subject if you are not close to a turning club where you could get some hands-on help. Alan Lacer has some good sharpening information on his DVDs. The AAW also has a DVD on sharpening.

Bill, based on your mention of dust and crumbs, I think I am scraping more than cutting. Tools are sharp for sure and I'd say it's how I'm using the gouge. I've been to alan lacers site and printed out some of his sharpening info.

I use the wolverine and ellsworth jigs to sharpen but I believe that I'd benefit from some hands on instruction. I've always been more a lower tool user and sharpening hasn't really been on my radar until now. The closest turning group is nearly 100 miles away so I think I'll go look at that AAW DVD.

 

[Jerry Bailey]

Yes, I have a bosch axial miter saw. I find that it's very accurate and I built a station and mounted it with rules and flip stops, etc....

If you're not already, then I would strongly suggest using the Bosch for cutting your segments, especially if you have it tweaked and set up like you say.
You'll find you'll get cleaner more accurate cuts with it, needing less sanding/cleaning up of segment pieces.
If you like using the table saw, I might suggest using the addition of an Incra Express in combination with the INCRA Miter 1000SE
these will enable more accurate cuts/angles .......
I got mine from here:
http://www.infinitytools.com/INCRA-Miter-Gauges/products/1444/

As for Malcolm Tibbetts dvd's, start with Vol 1, getting started, then vol 2-tips,tricks,feature rings ....... those 2 are the basics
I also have dvd's 4, 5, and 7, as they related to my personal interests, but every one I have watched has been well worth their price with info.
Not only does Malcolm show, but he explains in depth as to what and why.

and the segmented site also has sections with pdf's & files to show you the steps on different procedures, and those sections are evolving every day.
Again, a very useful place for relative info, with great people willing to jump in and help, just like this forum ;-)

 

[Bill Boehme]

Alan Lacer's favorite saying about sharpening is, "if you can see the edge, then you don't have an edge". I believe that he said that he got that saying from woodcarvers who are even more fanatical than turners are about sharp tools. Anyway, it is true that the edge isn't sharp if you can see it.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

If you're not already, then I would strongly suggest using the Bosch for cutting your segments, especially if you have it tweaked and set up like you say.
You'll find you'll get cleaner more accurate cuts with it, needing less sanding/cleaning up of segment pieces.
If you like using the table saw, I might suggest using the addition of an Incra Express in combination with the INCRA Miter 1000SE
these will enable more accurate cuts/angles .......
I got mine from here:
http://www.infinitytools.com/INCRA-Miter-Gauges/products/1444/

As for Malcolm Tibbetts dvd's, start with Vol 1, getting started, then vol 2-tips,tricks,feature rings ....... those 2 are the basics
I also have dvd's 4, 5, and 7, as they related to my personal interests, but every one I have watched has been well worth their price with info.
Not only does Malcolm show, but he explains in depth as to what and why.

and the segmented site also has sections with pdf's & files to show you the steps on different procedures, and those sections are evolving every day.
Again, a very useful place for relative info, with great people willing to jump in and help, just like this forum ;-)

Well if they're as great as the bunch of people on this site, then it's a no-brainer. I couldn't believe their membership fee is only fifteen dollars. I spend that taking my grandson to Chick Fil A! Thanks Jerry. I'm going to work my way - slowly - through the Malcolm Tibbets DVDs.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Alan Lacer's favorite saying about sharpening is, "if you can see the edge, then you don't have an edge". I believe that he said that he got that saying from woodcarvers who are even more fanatical than turners are about sharp tools. Anyway, it is true that the edge isn't sharp if you can see it.

Well I'm in great shape then. But since I wear trifocals I can't see much of anything!

Seriously though, I have his monster skew and it's a fantastic tool. Sharpening is a challenge for me and one of the reasons a higher speed grinder is off-putting because I don't want to screw up the grind. All part of the learning process, right?

 

[Jerry Bailey]

Mark,
when you join, in the General Segmented Woodturning forum, take your time and browse thru the
"how'd they do that" thread , you'll grok tons of info from it, but be careful 'cause it's easy to get lost in it LOL

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark,
when you join, in the General Segmented Woodturning forum, take your time and browse thru the
"how'd they do that" thread , you'll grok tons of info from it, but be careful 'cause it's easy to get lost in it LOL

Jerry,

Will do. I intend to take my time and grok much information

 

[Sean Boyle]

Mark

I also recommend the incra HD mitre gauge 1 degree stops and a 22.5
also there sled a little fine tuning and I no longer need to disc sand the segments before gluing also check out the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qFFS9PsghCI

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark

I also recommend the incra HD mitre gauge 1 degree stops and a 22.5
also there sled a little fine tuning and I no longer need to disc sand the segments before gluing also check out the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qFFS9PsghCI

Sean, thanks for the recommendation. I'm using my miter saw for segment cutting currently. It's a nice saw but no Kapex and it can be hard to get just right. I'm going to look into the incra miter gauge and see if it's compatible with my saw. It's a grizzly slider and the guides are a bit wider. It came with a reasonably good miter guide but not a great one, but I haven't felt compelled to change it until now.

By the way, that YouTube video is great!!