First set of gouges, recommendation?

Discussion in 'Newbie' started by Fadi Zeidan, Sep 14, 2016.

  1. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Reed @robo hippy
    We actually pretty much agree of the tool usage you described. I think you have 't been around enough bad turners to realize how much wood can drive onto the SRG.

    With the wing of a bowl gouge the wood cannot dive onto the tool further than the bottom of the flute about 3/8" the width of the catch could be the length of the wing 3/4 " or whatever the length the wing is.
    The SRG can engage the whole width of flute 1 1/4" when it catches and once the catch begin the wood could conceivably drive onto the whole length of the tool right up to the handle. However other bad things well before the tool can dig that deeply.
    The SRG can scoop up a whole lot more wood mass that a bowl gouge
    This video show getting a SRG catch with wood driving onto the whole flute. It was posted a while back


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY



    Exactly why we cannot reccomend the SRG for bowls.
    the above video uses this mistake to show why you should not use an SRG. I have run into many students who rough bowls with a bowl gouge this way. Somehow they mostly get away with it and they accept the occasional catch as part of the process.


    You are absolutely correct misusing the bowl gouge in the same way as misusing the SRG with get a catch. The difference is the downside of the catch with the SRG will be much greater than the catch with the bowl gouge. Bowl gouges don't get broken and bowl gouge catches rarely pull the wood off the lathe.

    You have made two points.
    Misuse of the tool causes the catch and
    People often misuse the SRG

    CONCLUSION : don't use the SRG on bowls....
    expert turner can use whatever tools they wish because they never get catches.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
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  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    So, Robo, are yew fer it or agin it? :D

    I generally agree with what you said, but still not clear on where you stand regarding teaching others how to turn a bowl.

    It sounds like the overarching point that you are making is that it is "technique" that causes catches rather than "tools". I think that is a valid point, but I also think that the room for error in technique is much smaller when a particular tool is used in a "challenging" situation. We all have our individual comfort zones when it comes to using tools. When teaching I feel like It is important to weigh my level of experience against essentially no experience for the beginner.
     
  3. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I have had a flurry of e-mails with Harvey who wrote the article. I am 'fer and agin' parts of it. I think I have made every conceivable catch there is, and more than once, but they are fewer.

    The only possible way to get the entire face of a SRG into the wood is with a dead flat surface, and the SRG with flutes pointing straight up, and the flutes dead level. It won't cut that way, obviously. The only other possible way for that to happen would be to try to drive it into end grain like a splitting wedge with a sledge hammer. If the handle is down, then a small portion of the arc at the bottom of the flute digs in, but is pulled out by the time the wings hit, and/or the tang bends. Haven't done that one yet, but have bent the tang on my SRG from heavy roughing of too big square spindle blanks that I should have trimmed on the bandsaw or tablesaw.

    "With the wing of a bowl gouge the wood cannot dive onto the tool further than the bottom of the flute about 3/8" the width of the catch could be the length of the wing 3/4 " or whatever the length the wing is." Can't say I have ever had a catch that was more than maybe 1/4 inch deep with any tool I have ever used, and most never are even close to that deep. I won't say it is impossible though. Depth of catch is one factor, and width is another. Putting too much metal into the wood at once is getting 'overpowered' which I consider to be one prime cause of catches, like taking a swept back scraper across the inside bottom of a bowl and not rotating the handle so that when you come to the wall, all the sudden, you have nose and wing into the wood at the same time.

    I believe in teaching right and wrong, both sides of the issue rather than one and ignoring the other, which to me, that is that the no SRGs on bowls is about. Answer and how to avoid.

    We can take Michael Mouse and his use of the continental style of SRG on his bowls. It is essentially a what we call a 'shear scrape'. It works, and it is safe, but I don't use it because it just isn't efficient for my purposes. Handle slightly lowered, cut with the lower half of the edge, and it will not catch.

    robo hippy
     
  4. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    image.jpeg
    Here is the catch in the above video.
    Looks like 3/4" gouge with most of the flute filled with wood.

    :) You just haven't been around enough instructionally challenged turners. :)
    You could get a similar catch with a bowl gouge but it won't be as big!

    He isn't too far off a good turning position here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
  5. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    In chatting with Harvey, I came to a conclusion that there should be several 'presenting the tool to the wood' instructional videos. I have had one in the planning for a while, but lots of material to cover. I have seen a couple of 'catch free bowl turning' clips, and they show proper technique, but not 'common mistakes' and 'what made that happen', which to me are crucial points in helping people understand what went wrong and why.

    Intructionally challenged turners... Probably correct about that, I mostly work with those who have some turning experience and lived to tell about it. I do need more 'this is a lathe' students, but wouldn't take them on more than one at a time.

    The above picture, I believe is his 'after the fact' one, and not the actual turning one. Note his thumb in the picture. The part of the flute that is cutting into the wood is almost dead center on the flute. I may have to watch it again, but I am pretty sure his flutes were straight up when he had the catch. He does have the flutes rolled over a tiny bit there, but the handle is dropped.

    robo hippy
     
  6. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I think there is a point at which the amount of edge involved in a catch becomes immaterial. That might be when the catch slams the tool down hard on the rest, kicking the handle up maybe bending the tang in some cases and things go flying ... tool, bowl, etc. and there is some blood shed and words said ... maybe even some new words coined.

    Some hardwoods split (or "rive" if you're from Tennessee) much more easily than others. Seems like some fast growing southern hardwoods might fit in that category. Then there are some species like mesquite that have its share of ring shake and other discontinuities. Those of us who turn it know what to look for and exercise a lot of caution (hopefully) although we occasionally get a new "safety officer" in our club who managed to learn the hard way. It's been a number of years since I was last bestowed with that "honor".
     
  7. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    In watching the video again, it looks like the tool might have been rolled over as much as 45°.

    One observation that I made in watching the video was that when he was holding the tool fairly still, but pushing it into the wood, he is digging a trough that matches the curvature of the tool. The bigger the trough, the more edge is making contact. With a bowl gouge, the diameter is smaller so the width of the trough is less. Also, when the bowl gouge has swept back wings, that makes the width of the trough even less. While I've had some really exciting catches with a bowl gouge, none can rival the SRG catch in the video. I don't feel inspired to see what kind of catch I might be able to get. I'll let others do that and be content to watch their videos.
     
  8. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    As the tool feeds into the wood or the wood drives onto the tool will turn to follow the grain and you cannot stop up with super power strength.

    What makes the SRG more dangerous is the worst catch you can get with it added in the the common misuse of the tool. If scrapers were commonly misused as bevel riding tool they would be similarly more dangerous.

    The video IMHO shows poor technique. However it the same poor technique I have corrected in many many students over the years who have done a lot of successful bowls with it.
    Our club has workshops once or twice a year. I have trained and retrained the same guy.
    Like Bill said the flute design and swept back wings keep the tool from being pulled inOr the wood from driving down on the tool most of the time.
     
  9. Arkriver

    Arkriver

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    I see the debate on "u" vs "v" goes on. I guess that is maybe like arguing about what vehicle make is best. I bought a Thompson 1/2" V Bowl gouge. To me it is one step above useless and I told Doug that. He smiled and said that most people like it. I much prefer the U. I suggest that anyone wanting to buy one or the other first find a friend or mentor and give them a try. Allyn
     
  10. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I prefer a third choice the parabolic flute which is sort of like a U in the bottom and V on the side.
    I really like the Jamison gouge made by tompson. It works well with the Ellsworth grind.
    I cut with the leading edge of the wing a lot and it just doesn't work well,on the V.
    I have a V Thompson I just use for roughing. It clogs a bit but not often enough to be a concern.
     
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  11. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I bought an early Thompson bowl gouge and it has a narrow flute that reminded me of the narrow flute on the Glaser bowl gouge that I have. I could be wrong, but it seems like the newer Thompson bowl gouges have a flute that is much better like the elliptical flute of a Sorby bowl gouge. Some people refer to it as a parabolic flute, but the truth is that a that size you would need some really fancy measurement tools to discern any difference between an ellipse and a parabola. The typical Crown bowl gouge has a much broader flute except for their Ellsworth model which has a flute that is somewhere the regular Crown and the Sorby.

    Currently, I have six or seven Thompson bowl gouges (if I include the signature gouges made by Thompson) and like them much better than the very early one. Who knows, maybe enough people besides you and me said something to Doug that made him revise the shape of the flute. Or, maybe my proficiency in using his gouges have improved over the years. I think that my favorite gouge would be my ¾" Henry Taylor Kryo. I also really like my M2 steel Sorby bowl gouge, but it doesn't hold an edge quite as long as the others. The polished flute enables me to get really smooth finishing cuts. The machining on the flutes of the Thompson gouges seem to be much better than they once were, but not as good as it could be.
     
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  12. diverjoe

    diverjoe

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    Interesting comments. I have my grinder mounted on a plywood base setting on a 4' tall cabinet . I have the CBN wheels on my grinder. I sharpen all my spindle gouges using the Veri-grind and my bowl gouges using the Vari-grind 2. I use PVC spacers on my vee-arm and on the arm of the Vari-grind 2. It takes longer for the grinder to get up to speed than it does to sharpen. I do have to spend a lot of time re-sharpening my tools after I have taken a class at either JCCFS or Arrowmont. I have found a grind that works for me and I grind my tools to that shape.
    Joe
     
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  13. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Well U vs. V to me is more about nose profile and how you prefer to hold your tools. I prefer to hold level, rolled over to almost 90 degrees, with a 45/45 grind (45 degree bevel, and about 45 degree sweep). The more rounded flute has a broader nose, which makes for a slightly bigger sweet spot. If you prefer a swept back profile, then the V takes to that grind better. The U also makes a good BOB (bottom of bowl) gouge, but I prefer the fluteless gouges, or even a shallow fluted spindle gouge so you can roll it up to 80 degrees for a very high shear angle. If you don't know, I do all of my roughing with scrapers, as well as all of my shear scraping.

    robo hippy
     
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  14. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Funny the differences yet similarities we all have. My grinder is screwed to a ply plate so that the Wolverine will mount. I have 2 CBN wheels (80 and 120). THe ply has 4 rubber feet and is not bolted down and does not move.

    As to Bill's statement I too fell my turning has improved since I got the Thompson V 5/8. However I feel it is mostly the gouge that helped me to turn better.

    Reed I have a question . Doug has blanks which could be ground into a fluteless configuration. What would be the difference as far as cut if I did that vs buying the fluteless gouge?
     
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  15. Fadi Zeidan

    Fadi Zeidan

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  16. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Gerald, I am not clear on the question. Doug does carry the fluteless gouge in stock, so are you asking of you should buy a blank and grind and mill it yourself? Too much work for me.... There is the old Skewchigouge, which was round stock, and you would grind a flat on it, going down to the half way point of the diameter. Too much work for me again as it is easier to grind a bevel on the half round stock than it is on the full round stock. Nose profiles are another thing. My preference for the fluteless gouge as a BOB tool is a 70 degree bevel, and a ) shaped nose, very similar to the continental SRG's. Mostly this is to roll it way up on edge to 70 or 80 degrees for a really high shear angle cut. I do have another that I ground into a tool I saw Allen Batty use, and is similar to the 'Vortex' tool from Cindy Drozda and Stuart Batty, so about a 30 degree bevel, and a V type nose, which essentially makes it a detail tool and good for beads and coves.

    robo hippy
     
  17. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Reed thanks you answered my question. I do have a skewchigouge and thought the description sounded a lot like it.
     
  18. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I bought a skewcigouge a number of years ago. I think that Sorby sold them back then. It may not be the most worthless tool that I have waste money on, but it certainly is a contender for that dubious honor.
     
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  19. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Funny Bill. I liked mine til I learned to turn beads with a shew.
     
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  20. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    If you have room, perhaps mount the grinder on a mobile cart with locking wheels. I have a rolling cabinet from Sams club that mine is mounted on. It has 3 drawers so pretty handy. I use the Vari Grind also.
     

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