First stab at sanding, after reading Jim's thread...

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks to JimLee for starting his thread on sanding. I read it, but probably still got impatient. Hand-sanding at this point (no drill). Started at 100 grit because there was a "rise" in inside of the bowl just under the lower part of the rim that I decided to use Abranet on rather than risk the scraper so close to the edge. In the process, noticed that the bowl might well have moved, even though the wood was ever-so-dry (bowl stayed chuck after coming off Mr. Mentor's lathe on Wednesday). Didn't seem completely symmetrical. Anyway, used 100, then 150, then 180. Looking at the bowl now, appears I need to go back to 150. Here are pictures. There are color differences I assume I still need to even out. Also, see comments above the picture of end-grain on the outside. [Reed, I didn't see your video until afterward]

Face grain inside, looks pretty OK


End-grain needs work, so go back to 150? or further? (I don't have any 120 in stock, but can buy tomorrow).



(Please ignore the bottom, rim is where I worked the most). Face grain again pretty OK



Oh, dear, end grain really needs work, so back to lower grit on outside too! Any comments on the open pores??

 

[robo hippy]

80 grit is a tool. Those lines will come out a lot easier with that than 150. It really is a pain..... Been there, done that, still do that some times....

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

I feel your pain. I finally finished an elm bowl today ... or more correctly, I should say that I decided to declare victory and move on to other things after messing with it on and off for several weeks.

I should mention that dry wood moves -- maybe not as much as green wood, but if it has internal stresses (known as "reaction wood") then every time that you remove some of the wood to get it round, the internal stresses that were in equilibrium suddenly are out of balance ... until the wood moves again to restore equilibrium. It is a never ending battle with some pieces of wood so you just have to decide whether to accept things the way that they are or send it to the firewood pile.

I have this bad habit of sometimes putting a flat area in the interior of bowls about two-thirds the way from the rim to the center then not notice it until a few days later when I remount it to finish it up. Suddenly I feel all sorts of kinks and flats in the interior and of course the wood has move so that it is considerably out-of-round. Reed is right -- 80 grit IS a tool. However, when trying to smooth out the curved from rim to bottom center AND the wood has warped considerably, I don't think that sandpaper stands much chance of improving things.

So what is the moral of the story? When you do the final turning, finish it up including all sanding in one session before the wood has a chance to move. And don't fret too much over the small stuff that only woodturners worry about like perfectly uniform wall thickness. If fixing a problem has a high risk of ruining the piece then maybe it's time to declare victory.

 

[odie]

Hand-sanding at this point (no drill).

Jamie......before you run out and buy a drill, you should check on an angle head drill. They make sanding so much easier and user friendly......great for woodturning.

The old style Milwaukee and Sioux is what I use, but unfortunately, they are no longer made (Luckily I still have three of them brand new in the box stashed away!!!!!) The Sioux is no longer produced, and the new style Milwaukee has been bastardized by the new styling that is bulkier, and isn't nearly as useful to bowl turning as the old style was.

Here is a Chinese knock-off of the old style drill.....this is what you want:

http://thesandingglove.com/Angle-Head-Drills.asp

I believe I also saw one of these at the Vince's site, as well.......I'm not sure if the Chinese versions are built to last like the old Milwaukee and Sioux versions, but they seem to be pretty popular with other turners. Also, the old style Milwaukee and Sioux angle head drills are available used on eBay. Expect to pay as much as the new Chinese version for the older Milwaukee and Sioux models. They are also available in a 2400rpm version.....avoid these. Look for the 1200-1400rpm models only.

ko

 

[Owen Lowe]

Here is a Chinese knock-off of the old style drill.....this is what you want:

http://thesandingglove.com/Angle-Head-Drills.asp

I believe I also saw one of these at the Vince's site, as well.......I'm not sure if the Chinese versions are built to last like the old Milwaukee and Sioux versions, but they seem to be pretty popular with other turners. Also, the old style Milwaukee and Sioux angle head drills are available used on eBay. Expect to pay as much as the new Chinese version for the older Milwaukee and Sioux models. They are also available in a 2400rpm version.....avoid these. Look for the 1200-1400rpm models only.

ko

Too bad, Odie, that that style was discontinued or “updated”, though their drawback was they were quite expensive at $150-$200. If the Chinese drills last 1/3 the life, then it all washes out in the end. I heard tell of some folks buying 3, 4, or 5 of the cheap copies and dedicating a single grit to each - this way they would each get used a fraction of the time put on a single drill so would likely have been cost effective (though I never heard any follow-up).

If you look at the New Zealand and Aussie turners, they seem to favor a Makita angled drill but I don’t know if it’s still made or even available here in the US.

Lastly, Jamie, if you have a large-tank air compressor nearby, the Grex 3” random orbit sander seems pretty highly regarded. Metabo makes an electric 3” random orbit, but the angle of sanding makes it clunky to sand the inside of bowls. (I love mine for outside sanding or shallow interiors.)

 

[Jamie Straw]

Have drills already, just not angle-drill

Jamie......before you run out and buy a drill, you should check on an angle head drill.[Snip]
ko

Oh, I was talking angle drill, not regular (have 3 or 4, maybe even 5 of those] Also up to speed, so to speak, on RPM preference thanks to Robo Hippy's sanding video. Near as I can tell, all of the inexpensive angle-drills are knock-off of the Neiko and basically disposable drills. Hard to tell if there's a difference between the $39 versions and the $59 versions.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Too bad, Odie, that style was discontinued or “updated”. They were quite expensive at $150-$200. If the Chinese drills last 1/3 the life, then it all washes out in the end. I heard tell of some folks buying 3, 4, or 5 of the cheap copies and dedicating a single grit to each - this way they would each get used a fraction of the time put on a single drill so would likely have been cost effective (though I never heard any follow-up).

If you look at the New Zealand and Aussie turners, they seem to favor a Makita angled drill but I don’t know if it’s still made or even available here in the US.

Lastly, Jamie, if you have a large-tank air compressor nearby, the Grex 3” random orbit sander seems pretty highly regarded. Metabo makes an electric 3” random orbit, but the angle of sanding makes it clunky to sand the inside of bowls. (I love mine for outside sanding or shallow interiors.)

There is a Makita angle drill, but it's a right-angle, not the 55-degree. Like the idea of multiple cheapies given the high-quality ones aren't available (see my comment in Jim Lee's sanding thread about the poor reviews on the current Milwaukee drill, a far cry from the previous version evidently). For now, just have a small compressor, no room for a larger one. This may change next year with an addition to the shop. Thanks!

 

[robo hippy]

I didn't have much luck with random orbit sanders or pneumatic ones. I found the random orbit sanders to be fine for polishing grits, 220 and above, but very slow for coarser grits. The pneumatic drills will keep your compressor running non stop. Fine in winter I guess, but the angle drills just work better. I haven't tried the newer Milwaukee drills yet. I should check some day to see if Sioux still makes theirs. In the early days, they made their own brand, and the same one for Milwaukee. The pistol grip ones work fine as well.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

I didn't have much luck with random orbit sanders or pneumatic ones. I found the random orbit sanders to be fine for polishing grits, 220 and above, but very slow for coarser grits. The pneumatic drills will keep your compressor running non stop. Fine in winter I guess, but the angle drills just work better. I haven't tried the newer Milwaukee drills yet. I should check some day to see if Sioux still makes theirs. In the early days, they made their own brand, and the same one for Milwaukee. The pistol grip ones work fine as well.

robo hippy

I don't have any desire for pneumatic tools -- enough noise in the shop as it is. The market for the 55-degree drills must have dropped below the threshold for today's high-expectation market. I was surprised how few models are out there.

80 grit is a tool. Those lines will come out a lot easier with that than 150. It really is a pain..... Been there, done that, still do that some times....[snip]

If I have any 80 grit, it's likely to be low-quality stuff, hate to risk getting making scratches from that, ones that would be hard to get out. Last night I found a sheet of 3X P-120 grit that worked pretty well, though it did take a long time. Will do what I can today, and then throw some finish on before the wood gets another notion to move.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Yep, yep, yep

I feel your pain. I finally finished an elm bowl today ... or more correctly, I should say that I decided to declare victory and move on to other things after messing with it on and off for several weeks.

This made me laugh! I've already decided, today is the day.

I should mention that dry wood moves -- maybe not as much as green wood, but if it has internal stresses (known as "reaction wood") then every time that you remove some of the wood to get it round, the internal stresses that were in equilibrium suddenly are out of balance ... until the wood moves again to restore equilibrium. It is a never ending battle with some pieces of wood so you just have to decide whether to accept things the way that they are or send it to the firewood pile.

I know enough about wood, it should have dawned on me that this is what's going on.

[Snip]So what is the moral of the story? When you do the final turning, finish it up including all sanding in one session before the wood has a chance to move. And don't fret too much over the small stuff that only woodturners worry about like perfectly uniform wall thickness. If fixing a problem has a high risk of ruining the piece then maybe it's time to declare victory.

Unfortunately, logistics made this impossible, but you can bet I'll have things organized to just that on the next bowl -- finishing product in the cupboard, time available to finish, etc. Sure not going to sweat the small stuff at this point, these are pretty much practice bowls, certainly not going up for sale anywhere. Thanks, Bill!

 

[Hy Tran]

Thanks to JimLee for starting his thread on sanding. I read it, but probably still got impatient. Hand-sanding at this point (no drill). Started at 100 grit because there was a "rise" in inside of the bowl just under the lower part of the rim that I decided to use Abranet on rather than risk the scraper so close to the edge. ...snipped...

Medium speed on lathe, Freshly sharpened scraper. (If you collect tools, this is a good place for a short-handled scraper, or an unhandled scraper). Use a pencil to mark where you feel the rise. Scraper in one hand. Very carefully: Support the back side of your bowl with the other hand, and bring in the scraper (supported by tool rest, don't ask me how I know that) to just kiss the pencil marks. Blend in.

You need the lathe speed fast enough to scrape efficiently (a sufficiently sharp scraper will make shavings at any speed), but not fast enough to burn the fingers that you are using to support the back side of the bowl. The shavings are less than paper thin--like wisps of smoke.

Repeat multiple times.

 

[Tom brouillette]

Jamie, is your lathe reversible? Reversing at every grit works very well for me when I see what you are seeing.

 

[odie]

Too bad, Odie, that that style was discontinued or “updatedâ€, though their drawback was they were quite expensive at $150-$200. If the Chinese drills last 1/3 the life, then it all washes out in the end. I heard tell of some folks buying 3, 4, or 5 of the cheap copies and dedicating a single grit to each - this way they would each get used a fraction of the time put on a single drill so would likely have been cost effective (though I never heard any follow-up).

If you look at the New Zealand and Aussie turners, they seem to favor a Makita angled drill but I don’t know if it’s still made or even available here in the US.

Lastly, Jamie, if you have a large-tank air compressor nearby, the Grex 3†random orbit sander seems pretty highly regarded. Metabo makes an electric 3†random orbit, but the angle of sanding makes it clunky to sand the inside of bowls. (I love mine for outside sanding or shallow interiors.)

Yes, you are right there, Owen. I was lucky to get the Milwaukee old style drills that I have stashed away. I bought them from some outfit that was closing them out on eBay about 5 years ago. If I remember correctly, I got them for around $100 each.....a real bargain for new in the box old style Milwaukee drills. I have one of the new style Milwaukee drills, and it just isn't maneuverable for interiors....ok on the outside, though.

I also have one of the Grex random orbital sanders......a great RO sander, but uses quite a bit of air. Not everyone has enough compressor to handle it.

later, ko

 

[odie]

Oh, I was talking angle drill, not regular (have 3 or 4, maybe even 5 of those] Also up to speed, so to speak, on RPM preference thanks to Robo Hippy's sanding video. Near as I can tell, all of the inexpensive angle-drills are knock-off of the Neiko and basically disposable drills. Hard to tell if there's a difference between the $39 versions and the $59 versions.

I don't know if there is a difference in the lower priced models either, Jamie. I do know that the older Sioux and Milwaukee angle head drills were first class, built to last.....my first one lasted about 20 years before some internal parts broke on it. That one saw some really heavy use during a time when my bowls required lots of heavy sanding.

OK, I see you are on the right path, thanks to Robo.......

There are other newbies cruising this forum, so maybe my comment isn't without some help to someone else......

ko

 

[Jamie Straw]

Medium speed on lathe, Freshly sharpened scraper. (If you collect tools, this is a good place for a short-handled scraper, or an unhandled scraper). Use a pencil to mark where you feel the rise. Scraper in one hand. Very carefully: Support the back side of your bowl with the other hand, and bring in the scraper (supported by tool rest, don't ask me how I know that) to just kiss the pencil marks. Blend in.

You need the lathe speed fast enough to scrape efficiently (a sufficiently sharp scraper will make shavings at any speed), but not fast enough to burn the fingers that you are using to support the back side of the bowl. The shavings are less than paper thin--like wisps of smoke.

Repeat multiple times.

Hy, that's almost exactly the process Mr. Mentor showed me on Wednesday (no hand behind the bowl though). He had me work on 2 places, using the pencil technique, and after that marked one more for me to level on at home. However, while I was turning the "homework", I got unsteady and made a new problem area. That area was the one I decided to sand out, because it was so close to the sweep upward of the rim. I really didn't want to have an "oops" and really screw things up.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Oh, don't I wish!

Jamie, is your lathe reversible? Reversing at every grit works very well for me when I see what you are seeing.

Nope, not reversible. Can totally understand that it would be handy for sanding!

 

[Jamie Straw]

I don't know if there is a difference in the lower priced models either, Jamie. I do know that the older Sioux and Milwaukee angle head drills were first class, built to last.....my first one lasted about 20 years before some internal parts broke on it. That one saw some really heavy use during a time when my bowls required lots of heavy sanding.

OK, I see you are on the right path, thanks to Robo.......

There are other newbies cruising this forum, so maybe my comment isn't without some help to someone else......

ko

Hope you have an insurance rider for those Milwaukee's! At some point, us turner's will pay anything to get one. Twenty-year lifespan in unheard of these days!

 

[Bill Boehme]

Medium speed on lathe, Freshly sharpened scraper. (If you collect tools, this is a good place for a short-handled scraper, or an unhandled scraper). Use a pencil to mark where you feel the rise. Scraper in one hand. Very carefully: Support the back side of your bowl with the other hand, and bring in the scraper (supported by tool rest, don't ask me how I know that) to just kiss the pencil marks. Blend in.

You need the lathe speed fast enough to scrape efficiently (a sufficiently sharp scraper will make shavings at any speed), but not fast enough to burn the fingers that you are using to support the back side of the bowl. The shavings are less than paper thin--like wisps of smoke.

Repeat multiple times.

Speaking of which, I asked Mrs. B to get as few shots of me doing just that a couple days ago on a very thin maple piece. I had to get is as close to perfectly true as possible because the next step was to bead the front and back surfaces in preparation for creating a basket illusion piece. You can see some of the gossamer shavings floating up.



The only thing different from what you say is that I always wear a leather glove. I'd rather burn a little goat leather rather than Billy leather.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Speaking of which, I asked Mrs. B to get as few shots of me doing just that a couple days ago on a very thin maple piece. I had to get is as close to perfectly true as possible because the next step was to bead the front and back surfaces in preparation for creating a basket illusion piece. You can see some of the gossamer shavings floating up.

View attachment 8793

The only thing different from what you say is that I always wear a leather glove. I'd rather burn a little goat leather rather than Billy leather.

That's cool! I hope you post pictures when it's done.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

80 grit

I turn a lot of softwood, and sometimes I just can't avoid tear-out. It's partly my lack of experience, and partly just the nature of such soft wood.

I just finished a good sized Sitka spruce bowl, which loves to tear-out. Long story short, I find that wet sanding (with walnut oil) 80 grit is MUCH faster than dry sanding. Abranet is much faster, and ideal for wet sanding with walnut oil.

I'm probably still too young and too naive to know any better, but I'm doing alright wet sanding by hand and have been just as happy not power sanding for medium and smaller bowls, particularly on the interior end grain where tear-out seems to get the better of me.

Nonetheless, my hat is off to all of you more experienced who have mastered power sanding.

 

[KellyDunn]

Jamie, Power sanding will make your life so much more easy. On the bowl you show I would start with 100 grit 5 inch disc on the outside and go to 320. I would do that before taking down the inside as since its not a kiln dried roughout its going to move. I have a dedicated pad for each grit. For the five inch I use psa discs. I have been liking Indasa lately. For the inside I would have used either a 2 or three inch velcro disc of 60 grit to start. I also have dedicated pads for each grit. I am getting older and the undulations I am making on bowl sides are very swiftly gone with 60. I also go to 320. The bowl will most likely go a bit to a lot oval so you will need to really slow down the rpm so you dont sand two sides very thin. If it stays round I tend to only do about 500 rpm to sand. After both inside and out are sanded I get the work damp to raise grain. An old cotton sock is good. Damp not sopping wet. It may take a few minutes to dry. But it will show anything you missed. go back to whatever grit you think if its nasty. For me its mostly a forward a reverse with a 320 grit paper on a foam pad to not burn my fingers. The other side of the pad has a piece of 220 grit. Sorry you dont have reverse. It does make a difference. Today when I got a piece damp it showed an area that I went to 150 grit to fix then 180, 220, 320. My 2c mind you but I do this for a living since 1989. Unless you have all day? Power sand. Figure out some method to do the sanding job you need with power behind it. Just ask. So many slick ideas all these folks have come up with to the job needed.

 

[odie]

Jamie, Power sanding will make your life so much more easy. Unless you have all day? Power sand. Figure out some method to do the sanding job you need with power behind it. Just ask. So many slick ideas all these folks have come up with to the job needed.

Absolutely!......power sand......it's the only way to fly! Everyone has their own way to do it, but I generally don't power sand past 180/220 grit.....and, usually bring it up to 600 by hand (with foam backing) on nearly every bowl I produce. Lately, on some surfaces, I'm not power sanding at all, but am starting sanding at 320......but, that won't come without some time in the saddle!

I believe part of the problem, is there are so many options and opinions, that a new turner doesn't know how to deal with sanding. There are just too many people jumping on the wagon and trying to profit from those who are learning. Because of this, there are too many confusing opinions about a plethora of products, and individuals who use them. None of these methods and techniques are bad, if they produce results......but, some are definitely better than others.

ko

 

[Jamie Straw]

I turn a lot of softwood, and sometimes I just can't avoid tear-out. It's partly my lack of experience, and partly just the nature of such soft wood.

I just finished a good sized Sitka spruce bowl, which loves to tear-out. Long story short, I find that wet sanding (with walnut oil) 80 grit is MUCH faster than dry sanding. Abranet is much faster, and ideal for wet sanding with walnut oil.

I'm probably still too young and too naive to know any better, but I'm doing alright wet sanding by hand and have been just as happy not power sanding for medium and smaller bowls, particularly on the interior end grain where tear-out seems to get the better of me.

Nonetheless, my hat is off to all of you more experienced who have mastered power sanding.

Thanks for your insights, Zach. Abranet is my favorite for flat-work, still learning what it can do in turning. When you say "sanding by hand" does that translate to "not on the lathe" or have you figured out how to do it spinning, but still not make a mess of the lathe?

 

[Jamie Straw]

Jamie, Power sanding will make your life so much more easy. On the bowl you show I would start with 100 grit 5 inch disc on the outside and go to 320. I would do that before taking down the inside as since its not a kiln dried roughout its going to move. I have a dedicated pad for each grit. For the five inch I use psa discs. I have been liking Indasa lately. For the inside I would have used either a 2 or three inch velcro disc of 60 grit to start. I also have dedicated pads for each grit. I am getting older and the undulations I am making on bowl sides are very swiftly gone with 60. I also go to 320. The bowl will most likely go a bit to a lot oval so you will need to really slow down the rpm so you dont sand two sides very thin. If it stays round I tend to only do about 500 rpm to sand. After both inside and out are sanded I get the work damp to raise grain. An old cotton sock is good. Damp not sopping wet. It may take a few minutes to dry. But it will show anything you missed. go back to whatever grit you think if its nasty. For me its mostly a forward a reverse with a 320 grit paper on a foam pad to not burn my fingers. The other side of the pad has a piece of 220 grit. Sorry you dont have reverse. It does make a difference. Today when I got a piece damp it showed an area that I went to 150 grit to fix then 180, 220, 320. My 2c mind you but I do this for a living since 1989. Unless you have all day? Power sand. Figure out some method to do the sanding job you need with power behind it. Just ask. So many slick ideas all these folks have come up with to the job needed.

Thanks for the tips, Kelly. That bowl is on the table waiting for me to finish the foot, I've been visiting relatives this week, so have to see if it's moved much since I last had it on the lathe. Chances are, I just won't worry about it -- do the foot, and put on finish, considering it a practice bowl. I sanded it to 400 a couple weeks ago. Thanks for the tip about getting it damp to check the surface, and speed suggestions.

 

[Jamie Straw]

[snip]I believe part of the problem, is there are so many options and opinions, that a new turner doesn't know how to deal with sanding. There are just too many people jumping on the wagon and trying to profit from those who are learning. Because of this, there are too many confusing opinions about a plethora of products, and individuals who use them. None of these methods and techniques are bad, if they produce results......but, some are definitely better than others.

ko

The variety of options can be a bit confusing, but I think my experience with flat-work helps me sort through and understand what might work best for me. Hopefully, the 109° weather in Palm Springs didn't fry the decision-making part of my brain. Don't know how my siblings can handle the desert summers!

 

[odie]

The variety of options can be a bit confusing, but I think my experience with flat-work helps me sort through and understand what might work best for me. Hopefully, the 109° weather in Palm Springs didn't fry the decision-making part of my brain. Don't know how my siblings can handle the desert summers!

Well, yes of course, Jamie......

My comments about "new turners" aren't meant to single you out, but include the group, as a whole. My apologies, as the intent wasn't meant to minimize your qualifications to make your own decisions. You obviously have advantages that many others don't have.....including myself when I first started turning.......

ko

 

[Jamie Straw]

Well, yes of course, Jamie......

My comments about "new turners" aren't meant to single you out, but include the group, as a whole. My apologies, as the intent wasn't meant to minimize your qualifications to make your own decisions. You obviously have advantages that many others don't have.....including myself when I first started turning.......

ko

Oh my, I was not taken aback by your comment, truly. No apology needed! I'm just grateful that I'm not new to sanding in general, or I'd really be confusicated!