For hogging out bowls: your favorite gouge and grind??

Discussion in 'Newbie' started by Jamie Straw, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    I'm working on bowls this week -- green wood mostly -- and wondering: what are your favorite gouges for hogging out the inside, and what kind of grind on them? Not talking huge bowls at this time, up to 9" perhaps. I've used 3 different gouges with 3 different grinds, curious about your approaches. Technique also (as long as we're at it). I'm really wanting to perfect what I've seen Lyle Jamieson do, which is to go straight into the bowl for the basic hogging out (as in this video).

    Details? The 3 bowl gouges I'm using are 3/8" D-Way with a moderate grind (not long wings), 1/2" D-Way with long swept-back wings, and 3/8" D-way "bottom of bowl" gouge.
     
  2. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    My tool for rough hollowing and finish turning inside of bowls is a 5/8 diameter bar gouge with the Ellsworth grind
    My favorite tool is Jamiesons gouge made by Thompson. This tool takes the Ellsworth grind well and is great for shear cutting.
    I also have an Ellsworth signature gouge, a couple of Henry Taylor and several crown gouges.
    I think the wings on the Thompson/Jamieson are a tiny bit thinner and thus get a bit sharper as they grind to a smaller angle. These tools all have the parabolic flute which is sort of a wide V with U in the bottom.

    I think you will see a lot of similarities between my style and Lyle's. We both show influences from Ellsworth and Oniel.

    Here is a video clip from a demo I did on gouges where I rough hollow a bowl using the Ellsworth ground gouge.
    This bowl is 9-10" diameter.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flw8LwQqGQU

    Demo of a natural edge crotch bowl
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug

    I find that using the tailstock for initial hollowing on natural edge bowls lets me be a bit more aggressive and I reduce the effects of tension in the wood by finish turning the outside after turning a bit from the inside.

    Have fun and be safe
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  3. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I remembered this clip Roughing the outside of a natural edge cherry bowl from a half log.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ0fC5Rk6h4

    The clip is about 3 minutes of close to normal working and not a demo.
    I use the Ellsworth ground gouge.

    After the gross roughing with push cuts I switch to pull cuts which tend to cut the bark edge cleanly.

    I spend about half the time refining the curve.
    Once in the chuck I will finish turn the outside.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  4. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I prefer a 1 to 1 1/4 inch wide by 5/16 to 3/8 inch thick scraper with a rounder nose, and a bit of sweep to the left side. This is one clip I did a while back. Notice when turning the inside, the tool never comes off the wood, sweeping back and forth. I do have others up using gouges as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKdqiAc0jx4

    robo hippy
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  5. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    Similarities, yes, but not the same. I am intrigued with Lyle's "straight into the side of the tree" approach to do the rough hogging-out. [Note that it leaves a series of concentric hills as he goes, and he's not going into end-grain during that phase.] Thanks, Al, for the links -- the more I watch, the more I learn!
     
  6. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I meant the tool presentation would be similar...

    In the end it is all about finding what works for you.
    There are quite a few ways that work to hollow a bowl.

    I hollow the cut rim bowl straight in from the middle out making a thinner wall with each cut the same as I saw in lyles demo until he got to thee stair steps.

    It is a trade off. On NE bowls I like using the tailstock for support and removing some inside wood to allow stress movement truing and finishing the outside
    Then hollowing the inside to the finished wall thickness. I leave a lot of wood in bottom as I am working the walls to minimize vibration.

    I have done quite a few hollowing from the middle out.
    Especially smaller bowls where there isn't much room to work with the tailstock in place.
     
  7. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    The tip a bout using the tailstock for support on NE bowls is much appreciated, definitely filing that one away!
     
  8. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    One of my goals this month is to make friends with the scrapers in the tool rack. I will watch your video for sure.
     
  9. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    I'm doing pretty well with hogging out, considering how few bowls I've attempted, but I'd like to get more efficient at it. That straight-into-the-tree method for the rough hogging process seems very efficient. But I'm still experimenting on how to really get the "straight in" to work.
     
  10. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    It begins straight in and cuts a hemispherical curve to the center.
    After a while you get a feel for it. The hand on the handle does all the work.

    The gouge on its side enters the wood with the bevel pointing straight in and once cutting begins the handle is pulled toward you with the forward hand acting as a fulcrum. This moves the nose of the tool through a hemispherical arc to bottom center of the cut.

    This is the method I used in the cut rim bowl video. I think the camera gets it clearly

    The cuts are all hemispherical arcs as the cutting end rotates in a circle around the fulcrum.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  11. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    Different part of video

    That sounds like what he demo'd at the beginning, not the straight-in technique. At about 1 min. 45 secs, he shows the straight-in approach. There's very little if any arc, no cutting across toward the center. I just watched that part again, realize I need to orient the bevel better. [BTW, I disagree with his wording of right/wrong. Easier and harder would be a better choice of words. Short of safety issues, there seems to be no "right/wrong" with woodturning.:cool:] The video link again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  12. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    I think the wording comes from his philosophy ...he is always right and all else is wrong. At least that is the way reports I have heard and that is where the wording comes from in my opinion.
     
  13. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    Minor point in terms of this discussion -- he's not the first, and won't be the last, accomplished turner who sees "right and wrong" rather than "my way, and the alternatives." I'm more interested in the technique.:)
     
  14. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Jamie I don't know if I can describe what I do. I learned it by trying to cut across the grain instead of into the grain. I start hollowing a short ways from the final dimension I want the lip to be. Just pushing straight in with a Thompson V gouge with swept back wings. Any other gouge that sort of resembles an Ellsworth grind would work the same. You can only go in so far with this cut until you reach the end of the wing or you simply don't want to push. I should say that I have the flute at about 45 degrees. Then I go to the right where the V is and I rotate the flute toward the lip. Now I make one or two fast cuts down into the bowl across the grain. This leaves a sort of stair step. If you think of a V I'm now cutting on the right side of the v. This clears away some wood so I can make another pass down the lip like I did in the first cut. Now I go back to the right side of the V and make 3 or 4 or 5 cuts going down across the grain in steps. I'll make one cut going fairly deep, then move over toward the middle and make another one not quite as deep. Then move over and do another one. Then I have a sort of cone with steps going from the bottom of the outside cut up to the middle of the bowl. Then I might go in and thin out the walls that I have so far to the final dimension. Then I push on down the wall and start the whole process over taking a lot more out of the middle each time. Cutting across the grain like this I can remove a lot of wood very quickly. I don't know it's all that much faster than just starting in the middle, make a small bowl, then make multiple passes enlarging the hole each time until you have the whole bowl hollowed. What my method does is leave thick wood in the middle which reduces the chatter for doing thin wall bowls. I'm making all the aggressive cuts in this center cone area so there's not danger of hurting the bowl. I guess I need to try and do a video because even I'm not sure what I just wrote.
     
  15. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    John,
    That sounds like what I do.
    I leave the tailstock in place until it gets in the way.
    I also finish turn the outside after I have hollowed some in case there is movement from tension release,
    especially on the crotch natural edge
     
  16. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    Have only done 5 or 6 NE and this sounds a lot like the way I do. Just wondering on the initial cut to define the bark rim, would a thin parting tool work well to make the seperation?
     
  17. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Some people recommend the parting tool cut for beginners and use it in classes.
    Making a clean interrupted cut requires tool control that students often lack.
    I have never used this technique in classes because the parting tool will never make as clean a cut as the gouge.

    I just have students make the entry slowly tool tucked into the side the lead hand keeping the tool from jumping into air as the wood passes by.

    Finally when the students get advanced they will use the shear cut entry and have a smooth surface rim to bottom in the inside.

    The parting tool works for some. To me it has no obvious benefit,
    Al
     
  18. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I remember going up to Salem, OR to see Jimmy Clewes a few years back. I thought I had never seen him before till he used a parting tool to start the entry cut on the inside rim of one of his platters... First time I saw him I remember thinking, doesn't he know how to do that entry cut??? You could use the parting tool to start the cut, but I don't think it would work well for natural edge bowls. Hmm, maybe I need a video clip on making the entry cut.... It really isn't that difficult.

    Cutting into the grain, and through the grain. Can't remember his name, but I have to use his idea. He did a 'shear scraping' video not long ago. One prop he uses is plastic straws to show grain orientation and how to use the tools correctly for cutting. For me, cutting through the grain is when you are going down through the wood, you still run into long/end grain issues, but the fibers are better supported when going down. Cutting into the grain is when you are going across the bottom of the bowl. 1/4 turn into/against the grain, 1/4 turn down hill/with the grain, so you are pretty much head butting the grain twice on each revolution compared to a glancing blow when going down through. Really need to make those props, but going into the grain does give you a lot of bumps.

    robo hippy
     
  19. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    I've hollowed out 4 bowls since I started this thread, two that were green, two that were dry. Going pretty well! I'm bummed, however, that the 16" long handles on my "new" D-Way gouges don't clear the lathe bed when I have to swing from far to near. Small matter, I love the gouges -- a 1/2-inch bowl gouge and 3/8" bottom-of-bowl gouge. Hope he makes a 12" handle that fits the gouges, they don't fit the 12" that I currently have.
     
  20. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    I'm all for another of your videos, John! I keep trying to digest your description when I'm too sleepy to concentrate. Will try again tomorrow (during the day). Thanks.
     

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