For hogging out bowls: your favorite gouge and grind??

Discussion in 'Newbie' started by Jamie Straw, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    Ah, yes, another video! Yours were tops on my playlist Thursday. I think you describe the entry cuts in one or two of them, yes? But not a dedicated video. The thumb behind the gouge helps, but that's a hand position that comes with difficulty to moi -- too much wear-and-tear on the wrists and hands over the years I guess.
     
  2. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Jamie I'm going to try to get back into the video business pretty soon. If your hitting the tool handle on the lathe bed while hollowing try changing the angle of the cut somewhat to see if that lets you raise the tool. You could also try raising the tool rest a little if that will still allow you to cut to the middle. Many people get too hung up on the tool rest being exactly the same height all the time. I am constantly adjusting adjusting my tool rest height to allow me to use the tool more comfortably or to make a better cut.
    Reed many new turners have a lot of trouble with entry cuts which is why I often show them the parting tool technique to get a shoulder started. You can show them 10 times and they still get that catch that tears the lip of the bowl off. They lack the finess it takes to tease the tool into the wood on that entry cut. Once they learn that it goes pretty well but when you only have a weekend to get them through a couple of projects you learn some techniques that work but may not be the method that you or I would use.
     
  3. odie

    odie

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    I have pretty much abandoned any gouge grind that is done with the vari-grind jig. I used these other grinds for years, but I find I am lately evolving back to basics. I find that the basic standard grind done with the v-arm, while the gouge rotates along it's longitudinal axis, will do anything the Ellsworth style of grind will do, and is quicker and easier to true-up repeatedly. Those of you familiar with my work, know I can perform some pretty complicated profile maneuvers with a gouge, and the standard grind is fully capable of doing it all, with a minimum of sanding required......as long as you develop your tool control to suit the purpose and need.

    For the entry cut using the standard grind......it is done with the tip of the gouge blade exactly vertical and perpendicular to the wood surface. (The flute points 90° to the side, depending on the direction you intend to proceed with the cut.) The tip enters very delicately, and the initial cut is very very tiny to begin with. Once the cut is established, the gouge can be rotated on it's axis to suit the depth, direction, speed, and amount of cut desired. It does take a little technique, but is easy and effective.....once there is an understanding how it works.

    ko
     
  4. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    I believe that the traditional grind does everything you want it to do.
    We are in profound disagreement that it can do everything the Ellsworth grind can do.

    Compared to the Ellsworth grind I find the standard grind :
    does not do the flute up shear cut on the Inside of a bowl ( it can on the outside)
    does not do a pull cut well if at all
    does not do the shear scrape
    does not do the scraping
    does not do the back cut
    does not do the roughing cut well

    I find standard grinds to be much more limited in the amount of material they can remove.
    a 5/8" bar with an Ellsworth grind can take a 3/4" shaving that is it remove 3/4" of wood from the surface inside or out in a single pass.
    Even beginning students can take 1/2" shavings with no effort on the part of the turner.

    With a traditional grind on a 5/8 bar most folks are going to get a 1/4" or less of wood removal.


    Al
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  5. odie

    odie

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    I hear ya, Al.......You are welcome to disagree with my findings. As I've always said in our disagreements.....results are the only thing that count. My results are always available for anyone to see, while you've always declined to do the same.

    What I do may be better suited to the standard grind, simply because I am one who depends on less sanding. Less sanding is what allows details to be more aesthetic to the eye.....crisp sharp corners left by better mating surfaces, and less variance in detail grooves throughout the circumference. Sanding, by it's very nature, is what eliminates geometric perfection in bowl turning. There is no way to get around sanding alternately end grain to long grain in bowl turning, and sanding always removes more material on the long grain. Your style is better suited to more sanding.....simple sloping curves with few direction changes, and little, to no details as a direct result of tool handling. In your case, the quality of the surface left directly by the tool, is less important, than it is for my kind of turning.

    One of the things I'm finding a great advantage in the standard grind, is the angle of the edge of the cutting surface to the axis line of the tool shaft is more obtuse than with a longer grind made available with the vari-grind jig. This means the cutting edge itself can be placed closer, in relation to the tool rest for many cuts......and are more controllable. The pressure against the tool from the resistance of the cut is more in line with the tool shaft, making the fineness of the cut more accessible under some conditions. It is that fine tuned controlability that results in a finished tool surface that requires less overall sanding.

    It's unlikely I'll convince anyone, or even have an audience at all, when I say there are advantages to the simple standard grind......because all those very popular Ellsworth style of grinds are so ingrained into the culture of wood turning these days. You and maybe a few others might remember the list of all the various styles of grinds that was linked to on this forum a few years back......the standard grind didn't even make the list! I was shocked to see that, while it did bring into focus how completely overtaken the culture of woodturning has become with the invent of newer styles of grinds.

    I guess I can be thankful that when I first started turning, all the various newer styles of grinds were not in existence at the time. I spend a lot of time in my early education learning what I can do with the original standard grind......and, I do see that as an advantage. Like many others, I fell away from the standard grind in favor of the new grinds. When Ellsworth made his appearance, he took the turning world by storm, and most everyone abandoned their roots in favor of the new. I think you are correct in assuming some turners may prefer these newer style of grinds, as you do, and that's ok by me.....but to completely ignore any advantages the old standard grind had, is ignorant of the kinds of results that are possible in the hands of the old masters.

    ko
     
  6. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Odie I have to respectfully disagree also. Especially on pull cuts and shear scraping. I have several gouge ground differently and play with them often. I developed my own style of pull cut many year ago before I met other turners. I had my gouge ground so the left wing was really long (I'm talking about an inch and half). I was totally shocked when I met the turner from the islands south of Florida (I'm having a senior moment) and he had the same grind that he had developed. Anyway gradually over the years I found as my skill improved I shortened the grind until it eventually was similar to the Ellsworth or Irish grind.
    I also agree with Al when roughing with my 5/8" gouge with swept back wings you can take a huge cut that is very controlled with the bottom wing cutting. For shear scraping it is so much easier on the outside of the bowl with a longer with rather than the shorter grind like Stewart Batty's. Not that it can't be done with that tool it's just a lot easier with a longer wing. Most shear scrapers sold for that purpose have a fairly long grind.
     
  7. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Odie,
    There is nothing wrong with the standard grind or those who use it.

    The advantages of the Ellsworth grind, other side grinds, and the Michelson grind are so overwhelming that almost all the top professional turners use one of these grinds for the majority of their turning. These people don't use the grind to make Liam O'neil or David Ellsworth happy, They use it because it increases their bottom line by making their turning time shorter and reducing sanding time.

    Anyone who has mastered the Ellsworth grind has in effect mastered the standard ground gouge.
    Many people myself included use a standard grind on occasion. A common example is the bottom feeder gouges are often ground standard ground.

    Your posts exhibit no evidence that you ever mastered the Ellsworth grind so I would suggest that disqualifies you from commenting negatively on its effectiveness.
    Show us you have mastered the Ellsworth grind before you allege that another grind is superior.

    It is fine for you to be satisfied with the standard grind and not wish to invest time in learning the Ellsworth grind.
    I know several excellent turners who primarily use scrapers and don't wish to invest the time learning to use gouges - several have done demonstrations at the AAW.

    It is not wrong to have a preference for standard ground gouges. It is dead wrong to state the standard grind can do anything the Ellsworth grind can do.
    Al
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  8. odie

    odie

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    Thanks, John and Al.......

    As I indicated above, your replies are expected.

    Carry on, gentlemen!:D

    ko
     
  9. Douglas Ladendorf

    Douglas Ladendorf

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  10. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Doug,

    This is an advanced cut and I strongly recommend finding someone to give you a hands on tutorial on the shear cut.
    If you roll the tool too much left it makes a big catch and if you hold to tool too tightly it makes it roll left.

    I turn the finished inside wall with the shear cut.
    One important point is that the shear cut can be made right into the interrupted edge of natural edge bowls.
    In a cut rim bowl the shear cut must be rolled into from inside the bowl.

    This is a video I did for Tri-county woodturners of a natural edge crotch bowl turned from Live Oak.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug

    About 36:15 I am beginning to work the rim and wall to finished thickness
    About 37:00 i am doing the first shear cut.
    About 45:00 there is a good shot of rolling into the shear cut.
    About 51:30 the final finish cut is made.
    You can see a few minor tool marks on the inside surface that will be sanded away with 220.

    I encourage folks to get some hands on help,with this cut.
    Our Tri-country club has about 80 members and I know first hand that 6!can do the shear cut well enough to teach it one on one.
    I should think you have some turners near you who can do this cut well.


    Al
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  11. Douglas Ladendorf

    Douglas Ladendorf

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    Thanks Al, I will file that away and look for opportunities to get some guidance. Interesting that the flute is at 12 o'clock. My initial thought was that it would be turned into the wall like on an outside shear scrape. Looks like it does take a delicate touch. I enjoyed the video.

    Doug
     
  12. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Doug,
    The pull cut is a flute up cut also.
    I do it with the handle down so that the wing is at about 45 degrees to the cut.
    As long as the handle stays down and the nose is out of the wood it is impossible to get a catch since the wood cannot drive onto the tool.

    Al
     
  13. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    If you come to the Rocky Mountain Symposium this fall or the AAW in Atlanta next June you can see first hand what the tools can do in the hands of some of the world's best turners. You can put your work out in the instant gallery, It is a great place to see what is going on in woodturning.
    These are experiences you just can't get from pictures, videos, and local clubs.

    Al
     
  14. odie

    odie

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    It was a long day in the shop yesterday, and I immediately crashed around 8pm. :p

    I was working on an experimental rim shape that I had done in the past. One of the few successful attempts at this shape was bowl 670, which sold a couple years ago. I suppose it's possible this particular shape is being done by another turner, but I am unaware of that......as far as I know, this particular rim shape is unique to me.

    I've attempted this unique rim shape many times, with quite a few failures since then. The failures have always been because the two mating surfaces couldn't be started sanding at a fine enough grit. The bowls themselves were not failures, because I can remove the whole thing and start over. The one I was working on yesterday is in quilted maple......one of the most difficult woods to get a clean cut requiring minimal sanding. The two detail grooves were done on the base surface that had a run-out of .006" before cutting the grooves. This is an acceptable run-out for detail grooves on a sanded surface. The surface began sanding at 400gt, after the tool work. What is difficult, is the acute angle mating this surface between it and the surface sloping up towards the central axis of the lathe.....or, centerline of the bowl. The angle of the mating surfaces forms an acute angle that require it to be completed with a minimum of sanding.....because it's very difficult to manipulate sandpaper in the apex of the acute angle. The other mating surface also began sanding at 400gt. Because I was able to get tool surfaces this fine, these two surfaces only required 400 and 600gt to finish.

    I can't remember the gouge shape I used to make bowl 670....it could have been an Ellsworth style of grind, or a grind similarly done while swinging the grind through an offset axis. The bowl on my lathe right now was done completely with a standard ground deep flute bowl gouge. The point I'm attempting to make with this post, is the often neglected standard ground gouge is much under-appreciated, and capable of cuts that are very difficult to do with precision.

    ko
     

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  15. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Odie When I do a cut like that on my hand mirrors I use my detail gouge. It has a 35 degree grind and will cut clean right up to the corner. My sharpest bowl gouge is a 40 degree grind and will usually do it but when I have a problem wood I go to the detail gouge or a Hunter tool.
     
  16. odie

    odie

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    Yes, at the very tip, using the standard grind on a deep flute bowl gouge, they are both very similar. That is a major part of the appeal.

    ko
     
  17. odie

    odie

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    Question for you, John.......

    Do you ever use a second bevel on your detail gouge? I do this sometimes, when I need extra stabilization on a cut deep into a crevice like that. The second bevel is very short, allowing a bevel rubbing cut on a very small surface. It helps, but I'm also finding that the standard ground DF bowl gouge also has more stability, because of the increased weight to it. This is similar to the extra stability one will get when using extra thick scrapers on substantial shear scraping cuts......

    ko
     
  18. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Kelly

    When I turn winged bowls with a raised bowl lip I usually cut the inside corners with a fingernail spindle gouge with a 30 degree bevel.
    If I have a long reach over the tool rest I use a detail gouge with a 60 degree bevel.
    These corners are difficult to sand so a spindle gouge gives me a cut I can sand with 320. I only sand bowls to 320.
    I suppose these could be started with 400.

    Also the Al Stirt style scraper will go right into the corner where I have the long reach and use the detail gouge and give a super clean surface.

    One limitation of the Ellsworth grind is that it is difficult to cut a 90 degree inside corner. (It can be done with the wing but it isn't worth the effort)
    I use the spindle gouge or detail gouge for chuck tenons too.
    If you google winged bowls you will see a vast array of bowls similar to one you posted.

    Al
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  19. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    In Odie's defense, my opinion is that the jig or fixture used only determines the angle of the grind and not the final shape. So, while Odie is is using the Wolverine fixture, that doesn't mean the shape is going to resemble a spindle roughing gouge. The shape depends completely upon the amount of time spent grinding at each point. The end result could range from an SRG lookalike to a a swept back shape with shorter wings than an Irish or Ellsworth grind. If I am not mistaken, Doug Thompson uses the Wolverine fixture to sharpen his bowl gouges. I have used his bowl gouges as they come to do most, if not all of the various cuts mentioned. Having said that, I eventually change the shape to an Irish lookalike with longer wings. My gouges all have different nose angles that range from 45 to 70 degrees.

    Odie, the rim detail on your #670 isn't unique. I have seen a lot of very similar shapes as well as variations on that design where the "wing" has a natural edge. Square winged bowls and all of its permutations are variants of that idea.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  20. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Here is one that I made for Empty Bowls that doesn't have a wing, but it does have the narrow V groove. I used a pointy-nose spindle gouge to make that cut. I used patination paint to create the bronze bowl nested in a wooden bowl illusion.

    image.jpeg
     

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