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Frank Sudol deep hollowing rig advice

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Pete Skellenger, Jan 12, 2018 at 4:55 PM.

  1. Pete Skellenger

    Pete Skellenger

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    I recently got back into woodturning, after nearly 10 years off to pursue graduate education. Found a 2436 on Craigslist and boom, back into turning. The lathe came with tons of extras including 2 hollowing rigs. One of them seems to be made by Frank Sudol... a large rig made of mostly 1.25” solid steel bar 6’ in length. It also included 2 cutting tools(5/8” OD) that fit this bar and 3 that are larger (3/4”OD) The roller it came with is also pretty heavy duty but the one thing that worries me a bit is that it’s not a CAPTIVE roller. The bar just rests on top of the roller. I’ve searched the Internet pretty deep and can’t find a ton of info on the systems Frank used to use (and I believe sell). Does anyone know anything about this system? Should I modify the roller or buy a new one to make it a captive system or do you think it’s heavy enough (mostly solid bar stock) to use safely without going too deep? Is there another bar that takes the 3/4” tooling that Frank also used/sold?

    4D457C90-770C-4C6C-92E1-D48B35506C17.jpeg 4B163A40-BDF0-4963-9E36-4AA6C8154F5E.jpeg EC54FE76-8BB8-41E2-8E24-7CF9D506D485.jpeg

    More curious about the system than anything else. Need to get more comfortable with the Jamieson system it came with before I try anything bigger.

    Thanks!
     
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  2. Richard Coers

    Richard Coers

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    Looks to me like an early version of what Carter Products now sells. Look at hollow roller XL. Maybe an early version of what Brian McEvoy sold.
     
  3. john lucas

    john lucas

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    I took a class from Frank. We didn't have a captured bar. The bar was so heavy that I don't think it would have kicked up no matter what. When you have the cutter dead center on the turning there isn't really any torque or twisting. I think I turned a 16" deep vessel with his bar.
     
  4. Dennis J Gooding

    Dennis J Gooding

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    I don't think you need worry about that massive bar coming up off the roller anytime soon unless you are trying for very deep hollowing, say 16 inches or more, and even then I expect that any catch that would lift the bar would rip the turning off or break it. In any case, you will have your arm over the bar while cutting. Having said that, I notice that the hollowing bits are very broad whereas I almost always use narrow (3/16" ) metal cutting lathe bits for my roughing out work so my gut feeling may be biased. I would suggest that you consider making some new cutters to use these smaller bits.
     
  5. Dennis J Gooding

    Dennis J Gooding

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    Oops, you slipped in while I was typing John. Sound like we agree.
     
  6. john lucas

    john lucas

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    I also agree with the smaller cutters although the larger surface area makes it easier to get a really smooth finish without those little ridges. Remember Franks vessels were wide open and highly pierces so the inside had to be perfect. I useally do most of my hollowing with the 3/16 cutters and then if necessary go to a tear drop cutter that has a long cutting edge.
     
  7. Paul M. Kaplowitz

    Paul M. Kaplowitz

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    Brian McEvoy took over sales from Sudol. I have that rig and love it. Brian has an excellent DVD on using the large hollowing bar. Look it up, it goes through everything.
     
  8. Pete Skellenger

    Pete Skellenger

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    Great! Thanks guys. I will look up the DVD for sure and maybe make some new cutters.
     
  9. Dennis Weiner

    Dennis Weiner

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    Hi Pete, Nice score!

    To add to Paul’s comment, McEvoy Retired and sold his big bar system to Carter. He Also sold his videos and some tools to Woodturningtoolstore.com out of Texas. Recently my club, HVWT, obtained a copy of “ Brian McEvoys Secrets to Mastering the Large Captive Boring Bar.” I agree that McEvoys video that is dedicated to Frank Sudol must be seen. The dvd refreshed many points that Sudol made when I attended his sessions in Aaw Providence symposium in 2002.
    Also available from woodturning tool store is a link to all of Brian’s archived newsletters which may be of interest to you. After seeing the video, Recently bought and tested one of his(or McEvoy) T1 teardrop cutters. I was really impressed with the cutting but thrilled with the longevity of the cutting edge. I used it with the 3/8 Jamison tool holder. I concluded For most of my hollowing I will continued to use Lyles swivel hhs and carbide 3/16 cutters. This teardrop cutter will have a future role depending on the form.
    You asked if there are other bars that use a 3/4 tool holder. They will fit the Clark Hollowing Bar which I have the pleasure of owning. I integrated it into my Jamison like system. http://www.theokspindoctor.com/.


    It is ironic that a friend of mine just milled a piece of 3/4 round steel so that I can make an articulated cutter holder for a variety of tools including the tear drop. Hold on to your 3/4 cutter holders. They are gold. I have not found them on the web. Carter will not sell them separately without buying the entire system.



    Also note that your 60 inch bar is square which helps inhibit rotation of the bar when cutting. That and your D-handle indicate that you will not need a top restraint roller. It’s fairly stable. I would go with it when you are ready.
     
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  10. olaf Vogel

    olaf Vogel

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    Pete,

    I have a similar system DYI. If you go over the rest too much, you will get bounce, so then you back off. But in my experiments, that was about 24” off the rest.

    And it looks like you could build a bar over the roller to make it captive, if you really want.

    The other consideration is weight. If it’s really heavy, then it won’t slide that well on your rest and you loose that fine delicacy.

    Otherwise it looks like. A great system. Congrats!
     
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  11. Tod Raines

    Tod Raines

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    Hello all,

    As mentioned, Brian McEvoy built his system based on Frank Sudol's design. Together with Gord Langer, Brian had many hundreds of these systems manufactured and sold them and other tools. In 2013 or early 2014, Brian and Gord sold the large captive boring bar system to Carter Products. Carter Products markets it as Hollow Roller XL. Brian and Gord still sold Elio drives, DVDs, piercing systems. They also continues to manufacture the T1 HSS teardrop cutters (for the boring bar) and supplied Carter Products with them. They produced a newsletter that they published about every month or two.

    I was a subscriber to the email newsletter “The Lathest News” published by Brian McEvoy of OneGoodTurn.ca and Gord Langer of LangerCraftworks.com. When I got an email in March 2017 that they were planning to stop the newsletter and their tool sales business, I reached out to them with a proposition. After some discussion we had reached an agreement with Gord and Brian to purchase their equipment inventory and start an eCommerce business. With their blessings, I have continued to create and share “The Lathest News” email newsletter.

    The Woodturning Tool Store (https://woodturningtoolstore.com/) manufactures and sells the T1 HSS teardrop cutters and still supplies them to Carter Products and other retailers. We also market the Elio-DR drive center and enhanced version of the original Elio drive. We carry all three DVDs produced by Brian McEvoy including the one mentioned above - "Brian McEvoy's Secrets to Mastering the Large Captive Boring Bar"

    This is a business I choose to pursue because I enjoy woodturning and I was out of work of a year. I hope someday to be able to earn a living at it. I am just starting out and growing the business.

    Happy turning,
    Tod
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  12. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    I saw an old article in the Journal. A maui guy, Gus Mauri and Frank Sudol introducing or talking about a new bit for Frank's boring bar. I met Gus last year. Are there any bits other than the round carbide for this system? The bit looks like a spiral cut router bit... Anybody knows where to get them?
     
  13. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Emiliano It's probaby a round nose milling cutter. I remember trying one of the smaller ones in my hollowing system when I saw that original article. It worked. Not sure in my amatuer hands at that time that it did any better than a 3/16" HSS cutter that most people use nowdays. The idea was it was kind of a bevel rubbing cutter but I remember having run backs across the bottom. I probably wasn't using it correctly as I said this was early on in my hollowing attempts.
     
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  14. Richard Coers

    Richard Coers

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  15. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    One of our club members, he's been turning over 30 years, still uses a similar system and I just bought a bit on Amazon. I used his bar the other day. What it would take one hour with a 6mm carbide cutter on the Jamieson rig it took just minutes. Super rough cutting, so then I went over with the carbide, and then the Carbide tear drop... That's the bit ...
     

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  16. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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  17. RichColvin

    RichColvin

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    Emiliano,

    Isn’t that a milling bit ?

    Rich
     
  18. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    Upon further inspection looks like you are right. This thing removes wood fast. Not for the shy turner. Lol.
     

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  19. Dennis Weiner

    Dennis Weiner

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    @Emiliano Achaval:

    Thanks for stearing me to that Mauri/Sudol artical in AAW archive Fall 2001: Page 58-59. It’s a nice little aggressive tool for end grain. I agree with John, it does look like an end mill that may have been reground. It is very similar to an idea that was promoted a number of years ago by Jeff Nicol of woodennicol. Jeff took an inexpensive 3/8 HSS drill bit and ground it back. Enjoy his you tube.
    View: https://youtu.be/TyN-RZOPB4M
    and
    View: https://youtu.be/gVvmCMp9cRQ
    .
    I hand ground my own (see below). It cuts great from center to rim even going up to the rim on an angle because it’s slicing like a gouge and the point of contact in the same location on the tool. When cutting in a parabolic path you may have to rotate it slightly to maintain a bevel cut, similar to a hook tool but IMO not as versatile. It’s use is limited with a captured hollowing system which by its nature prevents boring bar rotation.

    For aggressive material removal, have you explored connecting a Pro-forme?
     

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  20. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    I believe you are right John...
     

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