I have a Glaser 15V steel 5/8" bowl gouge that is getting pretty stubby. I inquired about a replacement gouge with the distributor (cuttingedgetools.com) but he (Steve LeGrue) is no longer in business and has indicated to me that Glaser has quit manufacturing tools again. Does anyone know where to get a replacement gouge (just the chisel end) or another manufactures gouge to fit the Glaser handle. I really like the heft and vibration absorption qualities of the buckshot filled handle and would like to still use it whether it be with a Glaser gouge or another manufacturer. Thanks for any input on dealing with yet another casualty of the economic downturn. John Chianelli
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Glaser Bowl Gouges
- Thread starter John Chianelli
- Start date
Talk to Doug Thompson....
John:
Contact Doug Thompson at Thompson Lathe Tools who sells replacement blades for this Glaser gouge (I have the same one). [BTW - You may as well give-up on CET and them producing 'new' Glaser gouges.] Be sure to tell Doug that you have the 15V BLACK-handled version - the shank of the 5/8" replacement blades are turned to a slightly different diameter than the red-handled versions, and you need to replace it with the correct blade.
I was just talking to Doug at the AAW Symposium less than a month go about doing the same thing (although my 15V Glaser hasn't achieved 'stubby' status yet), but I want to put one blade for the 15V 'in inventory' for when 'stubbiness' eventually happens.
Rob Wallace
John:
Contact Doug Thompson at Thompson Lathe Tools who sells replacement blades for this Glaser gouge (I have the same one). [BTW - You may as well give-up on CET and them producing 'new' Glaser gouges.] Be sure to tell Doug that you have the 15V BLACK-handled version - the shank of the 5/8" replacement blades are turned to a slightly different diameter than the red-handled versions, and you need to replace it with the correct blade.
I was just talking to Doug at the AAW Symposium less than a month go about doing the same thing (although my 15V Glaser hasn't achieved 'stubby' status yet), but I want to put one blade for the 15V 'in inventory' for when 'stubbiness' eventually happens.
Rob Wallace
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Any un-handled gouge of the same diameter will fit the glazer handle.
I have a red handle with with set screws and several black handles that I use CA to hold the handle in place.
The trick is to keep the opening up when removing the gouge or you'll be chasing the shot around. Heating with a torch breaks the CA glue.
I've used Henry Taylor gouges in one of mine and like that profile.
Craft supplies has these inhandled
If you don't care for the Henry Taylor profile, look at the Thompson gouges. They are available in wide selection in profiles.
Cryosteel bought the Glaser company. The last I heard is they went out of business.
happy turning,
Al
I have a red handle with with set screws and several black handles that I use CA to hold the handle in place.
The trick is to keep the opening up when removing the gouge or you'll be chasing the shot around. Heating with a torch breaks the CA glue.
I've used Henry Taylor gouges in one of mine and like that profile.
Craft supplies has these inhandled
If you don't care for the Henry Taylor profile, look at the Thompson gouges. They are available in wide selection in profiles.
Cryosteel bought the Glaser company. The last I heard is they went out of business.
happy turning,
Al
Another recommendation for the Thompson gouges - as good if not better than the original Glaser and a lot cheaper - plus a great guy to deal with.
It is a shame Steve went out of business - He sold me my lathes and many of my tools and gave me my first lesson.
Good guy and a loss to the Houston market for sure
It is a shame Steve went out of business - He sold me my lathes and many of my tools and gave me my first lesson.
Good guy and a loss to the Houston market for sure
Thanks for Input on Glaser Replacement
Thank you Rob and others for your inputs to my dilemma on choosing a replacement for my Glaser handle. The Thompson products look like a good alternative. I will probably go that rout. Thanks much......John Chianelli
Thank you Rob and others for your inputs to my dilemma on choosing a replacement for my Glaser handle. The Thompson products look like a good alternative. I will probably go that rout. Thanks much......John Chianelli
Russ Fairfield
RIP
Speaking about Glaser gouges, what ever happened to the Paulo Marin, guy who purchased the business from Jerry Glaser several years ago. He has been promising the new and improved Glaser tools "next year", ever since he bought the company, but there are still no tools.
Is he still working on trying to make a better tool or has he given up? Does anyone know for sure??
Is he still working on trying to make a better tool or has he given up? Does anyone know for sure??
Yes, as I recall, the big reveal was 2006 AAW Symposium in Louisville, starring Stuart Batty and it seems it's been all down hill for Paulo from there, A.K.A. extinction for Glaser tools!
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Russ,
I believe Paulo's company CET or Cryosteel is out of business.
I've heard at least three versions of what happened.
A popular story is that the company lost a lot of money when a shipment of steel went missing and never recovered financially from that lost.
All storys agree that:
Paulo and Stewart had a falling out.
The investors lost their money
My take is that the market for $200 turning tools was not sufficient to sustain the company.
-Al
I believe Paulo's company CET or Cryosteel is out of business.
I've heard at least three versions of what happened.
A popular story is that the company lost a lot of money when a shipment of steel went missing and never recovered financially from that lost.
All storys agree that:
Paulo and Stewart had a falling out.
The investors lost their money
My take is that the market for $200 turning tools was not sufficient to sustain the company.
-Al
About two years ago, I actually spoke with Paulo Marin on the telephone about the future of Glaser gouges and other turning tools, and he assured me at that time that they were still in production, despite the fact that there were none to be found at any of their distributors. He said they were expecting the next shipment of tool steel "any day", and that they would be sent to their distributors within 3-4 months. Apparently the shipment must have never shown up (?) or it never was "real" in the first place.... ....I suppose no one will ever know. In the end, it really doesn't matter.
The short story is that Glaser gouges and other Glaser woodturning tools should probably be considered extinct.
There is still a web site located at: https://glaserhitec.com/
If you go to the "Photo Gallery" tab, you can still view dozens of images from the Louisville AAW Symposium where the "Blow-out" CET display set up much anticipation and optimism for the continuation of the Glaser Tool line. All of this for naught. Someone is still maintaining this site (or at least paying for it to be still available on the web) but there have been no changes to it after several years, at least that I can tell.
While checking on broken links for my Woodturning Links web page, I did find that the address http://www.cetinc.com/ still comes up with a 'live' page, but it goes no where - no links to additional information - just a front page with "Cryosteel Engineering and Technology" title, postal address, and telephone numbers. I suppose I should remove this link from my links page, although my sense of history compels me to keep it there until it becomes a full "404". Any glimmers of hope that promises made by Paulo and CET would some day be fulfilled have now faded to darkness. It really is too bad that Jerry Glaser associated with CET - who knows what might have happened if another company had the rights to manufacture and distribute his tools? A sad ending to a stellar line of tools....
Glaser Tools - Requiescat in pace
Rob Wallace
The short story is that Glaser gouges and other Glaser woodturning tools should probably be considered extinct.
There is still a web site located at: https://glaserhitec.com/
If you go to the "Photo Gallery" tab, you can still view dozens of images from the Louisville AAW Symposium where the "Blow-out" CET display set up much anticipation and optimism for the continuation of the Glaser Tool line. All of this for naught. Someone is still maintaining this site (or at least paying for it to be still available on the web) but there have been no changes to it after several years, at least that I can tell.
While checking on broken links for my Woodturning Links web page, I did find that the address http://www.cetinc.com/ still comes up with a 'live' page, but it goes no where - no links to additional information - just a front page with "Cryosteel Engineering and Technology" title, postal address, and telephone numbers. I suppose I should remove this link from my links page, although my sense of history compels me to keep it there until it becomes a full "404". Any glimmers of hope that promises made by Paulo and CET would some day be fulfilled have now faded to darkness. It really is too bad that Jerry Glaser associated with CET - who knows what might have happened if another company had the rights to manufacture and distribute his tools? A sad ending to a stellar line of tools....
Glaser Tools - Requiescat in pace
Rob Wallace
Rob
I checked WHOIS and the domain is paid up through Feb of next year, my guess is they paid for all domain services up through that date (common practice)
I'd guess that come Feb 2010 we will see that web-site vanish
I checked WHOIS and the domain is paid up through Feb of next year, my guess is they paid for all domain services up through that date (common practice)
I'd guess that come Feb 2010 we will see that web-site vanish
Just to get back to the OP; Doug Thompson says his replacement gouges fit the Glaser handles but are not otherwise copies of the original.
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glaser tools
glaser tools are back in business. Paulo Marin is running the company and I have purchased two tools with no problems and the customer service was great promt emails and phone calls to answer questions. the tools are great and hold and edge extremly well. the address in the post glasertitec tools is the correct one. they say they will be offeing a blade replacement service soon.
Mike
glaser tools are back in business. Paulo Marin is running the company and I have purchased two tools with no problems and the customer service was great promt emails and phone calls to answer questions. the tools are great and hold and edge extremly well. the address in the post glasertitec tools is the correct one. they say they will be offeing a blade replacement service soon.
Mike
Thank You Mike!
I appreciate the comment Mike. This is a resurrected post which for the longest time has been a source of misinformation. Some people were even sure we were extinct and out of business.
Glaser tools are back and striving and Jerry Glaser is an active part of our operation. Our facility is busy producing the BEST quality tools in the market today combined with top of the line customer service.
Thompson tools do not need to make blades to fit Jerry's handles. We have plenty of tools to fill Jerry's original handles.... We do not use any other manufacturers name to promote our own products or to establish ourselves.
Thank you for supporting Glaser Hitec!
Paulo Marin
===============
Remember:
The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the cheap price is forgotten.
I appreciate the comment Mike. This is a resurrected post which for the longest time has been a source of misinformation. Some people were even sure we were extinct and out of business.
Glaser tools are back and striving and Jerry Glaser is an active part of our operation. Our facility is busy producing the BEST quality tools in the market today combined with top of the line customer service.
Thompson tools do not need to make blades to fit Jerry's handles. We have plenty of tools to fill Jerry's original handles.... We do not use any other manufacturers name to promote our own products or to establish ourselves.
Thank you for supporting Glaser Hitec!
Paulo Marin
===============
Remember:
The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the cheap price is forgotten.
There was just an article on the making of these tools in Woodturning Design. Joe Herrman went through the factory. I know I am getting older but I thought there was a picture of Paulo and Joe said his regret was not getting a shot of him and Jerry together. This was pretty recent. I give away my copies so dont have it to give exacts. That said I am really glad guys like Doug are going for high end steels.
The fact of the matter is that 10V and 15V steel is all manufactured by the same company, it is the same steel no matter who is making the tool. If between 2007 and 2011 a person wanted a 10V tool there was only one place to get it. The other guy can throw all the barbs he wants at Thompson Tools but the fact of the matter is that Doug Thompson sells a great quality tool at a very reasonable price and his Guarantee is the best in the business. Yes I talk about Thompson Tools and at some symposiums you will see me in the booth selling but I'm there for reasons other than you probably think. If you see me ask me and I'll tell you why.
Bill
Bill
Thanks, it looks like CPM 10V - 15V is the rage this year with Stu Batty's line of tools to be introduced in a few months and I'll have a new handle and another line of tools out the same time. They are all the same steel (yes we purchase steel from the same companies) with the same heat treatment so shopping is simple, Stu and I as head of our companies both agreed that fighting on the forums won't be tolerated so your spared the Ford/Chevy argument between these tools.
We will continue to manufacture all the tools we presently manufacture and add more each year.
Over the past 6 years we have grown from very humble beginnings to become the Number One turning tool manufacture in the United States that we sell all over the world. We expanded our capacity twice before and are working to double capacity again, a new mill should be online hopefully next week with two more on order. We are looking to move the entire business to the southeast once we find a 8 - 10,000 sq ft building in a area that we like. (Retirement is fun)
From the Thompson family, Thank you.
We will continue to manufacture all the tools we presently manufacture and add more each year.
Over the past 6 years we have grown from very humble beginnings to become the Number One turning tool manufacture in the United States that we sell all over the world. We expanded our capacity twice before and are working to double capacity again, a new mill should be online hopefully next week with two more on order. We are looking to move the entire business to the southeast once we find a 8 - 10,000 sq ft building in a area that we like. (Retirement is fun)
From the Thompson family, Thank you.
10V and 15V were also the rage 20+ years ago
I don't intend to get into "who shot John" the past 4-5 years. Or who makes the best tools today. I'll leave that to the consumer. However, since I was head of process and product technology for Crucible from 1981 - 2009, I know something about CPM 10V, CPM 15V, and the 10V knock-off, A11. CPM 10V became the rage 30 years ago and is a mature grade. CPM 15V also became the rage 20 years ago. Applications were in many industries. Until the past few years, Jerry Glaser was the only woodturning toolmaker who applied these grades to his products.
I also have been involved in the metallurgical analysis of all manner of tools made by all manner of toolmakers over that time period. The outlook that the performance of all 10V or all 15V tools are the same, because the steel is the same, is just plain simplistic. That is like saying that two Black Angus sirloin steaks cut from the same cow and cooked by two different chefs, in two different restaurants taste the same!
In my industrial experience, I frankly have never before heard any toolmaker say his tools are the same as another because they use the same steel. I also am not used to seeing situations where one toolmaker promotes his company using another's name. I was always taught that selling one's product by knocking the other guy is generally unsuccessful.
I have worked with competing toolmakers throughout my career - all of which were using the same Crucible steel. Most toolmakers understand the value added that subtleties in their toolmaking practices bring to the market. If they are competent, they understand the complexities of their process and know that very small differences can create very large performance increases. Toolmaking is far more difficult than just selecting the right steel and assuming all else is the same.
I would suggest that the best tools for woodturning or any other endeavor will be made by those that worry about quality: Quality of tools: Quality of originality; Quality of service; and Quality of professionalism. Woodturners should be pleased that we have so many manufacturers trying to make our turning lives more successful.
Jerry
I don't intend to get into "who shot John" the past 4-5 years. Or who makes the best tools today. I'll leave that to the consumer. However, since I was head of process and product technology for Crucible from 1981 - 2009, I know something about CPM 10V, CPM 15V, and the 10V knock-off, A11. CPM 10V became the rage 30 years ago and is a mature grade. CPM 15V also became the rage 20 years ago. Applications were in many industries. Until the past few years, Jerry Glaser was the only woodturning toolmaker who applied these grades to his products.
I also have been involved in the metallurgical analysis of all manner of tools made by all manner of toolmakers over that time period. The outlook that the performance of all 10V or all 15V tools are the same, because the steel is the same, is just plain simplistic. That is like saying that two Black Angus sirloin steaks cut from the same cow and cooked by two different chefs, in two different restaurants taste the same!
In my industrial experience, I frankly have never before heard any toolmaker say his tools are the same as another because they use the same steel. I also am not used to seeing situations where one toolmaker promotes his company using another's name. I was always taught that selling one's product by knocking the other guy is generally unsuccessful.
I have worked with competing toolmakers throughout my career - all of which were using the same Crucible steel. Most toolmakers understand the value added that subtleties in their toolmaking practices bring to the market. If they are competent, they understand the complexities of their process and know that very small differences can create very large performance increases. Toolmaking is far more difficult than just selecting the right steel and assuming all else is the same.
I would suggest that the best tools for woodturning or any other endeavor will be made by those that worry about quality: Quality of tools: Quality of originality; Quality of service; and Quality of professionalism. Woodturners should be pleased that we have so many manufacturers trying to make our turning lives more successful.
Jerry
Jerry, you are right, tool making is not easy let alone the heat treatment which is very involved. On a forum like this we talk in general terms but behind the scene it takes a team of people, I hired a metallurgist who worked at Crucible to do all my heat treatment he knew this steel like the back of his hand and how to get the most out of it. You might have worked together in NY.
Good place to start
Basic heat treating guidelines are always a good place to start, then, the refinement begins. There are many combinations of heat treating parameters which are specified in basic heat treating guidelines. Because of these varied possibilities, it is impossible to presume that any one toolmaker’s heat treating is the same as that of any other. I have seen toolmakers spend tens of thousands of dollars and years of experimentation to refine their heat treating practices, all the time running metallurgical evaluations and tool life tests. Sometimes they end up using very surprising techniques to achieve the best performance. “The devil is always in the details!â€
Jerry
Basic heat treating guidelines are always a good place to start, then, the refinement begins. There are many combinations of heat treating parameters which are specified in basic heat treating guidelines. Because of these varied possibilities, it is impossible to presume that any one toolmaker’s heat treating is the same as that of any other. I have seen toolmakers spend tens of thousands of dollars and years of experimentation to refine their heat treating practices, all the time running metallurgical evaluations and tool life tests. Sometimes they end up using very surprising techniques to achieve the best performance. “The devil is always in the details!â€
Jerry
Jerry, thank you for chiming in. You are right that as turners we live in great times for the inventiveness of various folks lets us try new things with better steels. My wifes favorite tool was a large wide roughing gouge Mr. Glaser made. I save it in case she decides to turn again. And since I am a turner not a steel guy I find conversations by folks that know what they are talking about very informative. If you really believe in what you make of course you want to say you have the best. So I ask a question. If the steel is made in one place and all buy from that one place it would seem to me that what is done to the steel to make a tool could make a difference in how it holds up actually put to the work. Now anyone can chime in on this. The more, the more happy a camper I am. After the shaft is milled it needs to go through other processes,yes? Are all these processes equal,no? If say a certain hardess is sought for a final product is that not tricky? Or just part of the job for a steel guy? So if we have three basic folks doing turning tools from this steel, besides internal shapes, U,s and V,s and inbetween,should the steel itself be equal? Or does my previous question of what happens to it once the milling is done make them the same or different answer that? I do know that flute shapes appeal to one turner or another and we all like different shapes. Jerry I have sat in on a class you did on steels some years back so have met you. We shared the same demo room. I know Stu Batty and have met Paulo. I have not met Doug but have had very nice conversations with him and am giving his tools a good everyday workout as a full time turner.
I wish to add one more toolmaker to the mix.Dave from D-way tools. M42 cobalt steel. I have not tried one of the gouges made from this steel but have great respect for the drill bits I use all the time made from it. So we have three makers from one steel and one from another.
Just keep it kind gentleman, but I for one want to hear what each of you say about your product. For starters I know your flute shapes are going to appeal to different folks. Unless they are all the same. Are they? Just know I set the ground rule to keep it kind. I would like for this to be a discussion where a statement is made and perhaps a comeback.
Jerry since I consider you an expert could you keep tabs on this discussion and interject with fact checking so to speak?
How are you with the difference with M42 versus the v10 and 15 steel?
I wish to add one more toolmaker to the mix.Dave from D-way tools. M42 cobalt steel. I have not tried one of the gouges made from this steel but have great respect for the drill bits I use all the time made from it. So we have three makers from one steel and one from another.
Just keep it kind gentleman, but I for one want to hear what each of you say about your product. For starters I know your flute shapes are going to appeal to different folks. Unless they are all the same. Are they? Just know I set the ground rule to keep it kind. I would like for this to be a discussion where a statement is made and perhaps a comeback.
Jerry since I consider you an expert could you keep tabs on this discussion and interject with fact checking so to speak?
How are you with the difference with M42 versus the v10 and 15 steel?
After Midnight Reply
Kelly - It is after midnight here in not so sunny CNY, you may not have had your late afternoon shower yet in the islands!!
So for openers, I will refer you to an editorial piece I just did on Woodturnersamerica.com
http://www.woodturnersamerica.com/i...-little-time&catid=99:jerry-wright&Itemid=149
Jerry
Kelly - It is after midnight here in not so sunny CNY, you may not have had your late afternoon shower yet in the islands!!
So for openers, I will refer you to an editorial piece I just did on Woodturnersamerica.com
http://www.woodturnersamerica.com/i...-little-time&catid=99:jerry-wright&Itemid=149
Jerry
Jerry, been there done that, as you know it takes many trials to get it right and we got it rght. It really helps to have a old Crucible employee on the team.
Doug and Jerry,
It may seem like not much to steel guys like the two of you but as a turner who has a hard time understanding steels threads like this really do add knowledge.
Jerry thanks for the link very nice. But it seems as though the answer is what happens after all the tooling is done is the key to a good to great tool. And that that process is an ongoing thing and has to be tested all the time with each batch. Do I have that right? So no toolmaker has any laurels to rest on?
Paulo and Dave, the two of you could chime in should you like and feel you have something to offer this conversation.
Jerry, dont know if you are a member of wow(world of woodturners) but your article would be well received in the news section.
It may seem like not much to steel guys like the two of you but as a turner who has a hard time understanding steels threads like this really do add knowledge.
Jerry thanks for the link very nice. But it seems as though the answer is what happens after all the tooling is done is the key to a good to great tool. And that that process is an ongoing thing and has to be tested all the time with each batch. Do I have that right? So no toolmaker has any laurels to rest on?
Paulo and Dave, the two of you could chime in should you like and feel you have something to offer this conversation.
Jerry, dont know if you are a member of wow(world of woodturners) but your article would be well received in the news section.
Somewhat Misinterpreted
Kelly - I commented on this thread because some were dismissing the fundamentals of sound tool design and sound toolmaking practices by saying that as long as the starting tool grade is the same, then the final tools are equivalent. For me, the toolmaking process includes the grade, the design, the execution of the design, the machining, grinding and other fabrication approaches, as well as heat treating, and quality control. Each of these is an integral part of a great turning tool.
Sound manufacturing businesses have a design function, a manufacturing function, an over-arching quality assurance system, and regular product and process quality control checks. Achieving the best designs, and arriving at the best manufacturing process is an involved task that results often from many trials and growing pains, and often takes years. Once those best practices are in place, the quality assurance and product and process quality control maintain consistency.
My comments on the complexities of heat treatment were simply in response to a comment that implied that since one had gotten heat treating advice from the right starting source, then all is well. Heat treating is full of subtleties and is often mistakenly taken for granted. The same grade at the same hardness is not necessarily heat treated the same and may not perform the same.
I don't think any manufacturer can rest on their laurels. They must continue to provide consistent expected quality, and continue to innovate. All companies and their fans can be expected to say and believe that they are the best. I think it is best to let the tools do the talking.
Kelly - I commented on this thread because some were dismissing the fundamentals of sound tool design and sound toolmaking practices by saying that as long as the starting tool grade is the same, then the final tools are equivalent. For me, the toolmaking process includes the grade, the design, the execution of the design, the machining, grinding and other fabrication approaches, as well as heat treating, and quality control. Each of these is an integral part of a great turning tool.
Sound manufacturing businesses have a design function, a manufacturing function, an over-arching quality assurance system, and regular product and process quality control checks. Achieving the best designs, and arriving at the best manufacturing process is an involved task that results often from many trials and growing pains, and often takes years. Once those best practices are in place, the quality assurance and product and process quality control maintain consistency.
My comments on the complexities of heat treatment were simply in response to a comment that implied that since one had gotten heat treating advice from the right starting source, then all is well. Heat treating is full of subtleties and is often mistakenly taken for granted. The same grade at the same hardness is not necessarily heat treated the same and may not perform the same.
I don't think any manufacturer can rest on their laurels. They must continue to provide consistent expected quality, and continue to innovate. All companies and their fans can be expected to say and believe that they are the best. I think it is best to let the tools do the talking.
Hi, i am an mechanical Engineer from Germany, i turn wood as a hobby since 2007. One of my private interest is metallurgy, and i have done many hours of research in the section Tool Steels and PM. The german woodturning-forum invites every 2 years to a great Symposium, there i tell the turners, in a lecture, many things about HSS,PM, Kryo. I followed this thread an saw that Paolo and Doug also do.
I do have on question to the Manufactures.
Why do you use 10V if you want to make the best tools on the market?
(I know that you also use 15V)
James Staley and his students have done a scientifically analysis of "Wear Resistance of Tool Steels for Woodturning".
http://www.morewoodturning.net/reviews/Tool%20Wear%20Testing%20by%20Jim%20Staley.pdf
He shows that the wear resistance von 10V is only about 20% higher than M2. I know that the PM created 10V has much finer grain, is much more homogen and do not have the carbides segregations and carbid oriented in lines. To my mind it makes no sense to use 10V if i can use 15V or ASP60 for the tools
Why do you not use only 15V or ASP2060?
Is the price of the Material the problem?
Or the machinig of the Steel?
Best Regards from Germany
I do have on question to the Manufactures.
Why do you use 10V if you want to make the best tools on the market?
(I know that you also use 15V)
James Staley and his students have done a scientifically analysis of "Wear Resistance of Tool Steels for Woodturning".
http://www.morewoodturning.net/reviews/Tool%20Wear%20Testing%20by%20Jim%20Staley.pdf
He shows that the wear resistance von 10V is only about 20% higher than M2. I know that the PM created 10V has much finer grain, is much more homogen and do not have the carbides segregations and carbid oriented in lines. To my mind it makes no sense to use 10V if i can use 15V or ASP60 for the tools
Why do you not use only 15V or ASP2060?
Is the price of the Material the problem?
Or the machinig of the Steel?
Best Regards from Germany
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I agree, wear resistance on wood is very much different than on metal, and very much different from SiC on a disk, which is how it's measured for tool steels. Your 20% is about right in my experience. The difference seems even less when cutting high-acid woods wet. I think corrosion is the factor there, but not the scanning 'scope to prove it.
Haven't paid a premium for a process or alloy in a while. Last were PM types.
Haven't paid a premium for a process or alloy in a while. Last were PM types.
10V and 15V
Joachim:
I am very familiar with the referenced Staley (and students) paper. In fact my company and I participated in the study by submitting steels, and reviewing preliminary data. I have since retired. I also attended a presentation of its results at an AAW national symposium. The data is at variance with longstanding performance data in the pulp, paper, and wood processing industries, for CPM 10V. CPM 10V excels in wear applications where M2, and higher alloyed highspeed steels would not even be considered.
The Staley paper involved an effort (student class exercise) to develop a direct measurement method to compare wear properties of various steels in a specific machining configuration (Ringmaster). The students generated data and then attempted with the help of their professors to model the main variables that may contribute to tool life. As with most initial studies, this one generated questions for further studies.
The samples which they used were provided by different vendors and represented a wide range of hardness. This is because each grade was designed and heat treated for different applications. Different cutting tool applications require different balances of wear resistance, toughness, and hardness. The students arrived at the conclusion that wear resistance was a combination of material hardness and volume of carbides within the materials’ matrices. They found that the least wear resistant was M2, and the most wear resistant was Rex 86. They then extrapolated this data to infer performance characteristics about other untested grades. They specifically point out that CPM 10V performed worse than expected. This should have been a flag to perform more testing and re-affirm the methodology.
The predictive model which they then designed uses hardness and carbide volume as it’s principal variables. In fact, the carbide volumes which they measured are not consistent with accurate steel research determinations. The reported carbide volumes for CPM 10V are 35% below actual values. This puts into question the predictive model.
A very important material property not addressed in the Staley study is toughness or resistance to breakage. This is a critical element in woodturning, where vibration, tool catches, interrupted cuts, out of balance blanks and long extensions over a tool rest are commonplace. All of this is going on while the turner is hanging onto the tool near the cutting tip. There is no doubt that a high hardness capability material like CPM Rex 86 and ASP60 can make a wear resistant turning tool. However, the impact toughness of these grades is well below that of CPM 10V, CPM M4, and M2. Turning gouges and scrapers are subjected to shock loads, tool catches, drops onto the floor, etc. I am concerned about the use of very high hardness (HRC 67-69) highspeed steels in these applications. Even in metal cutting operations (such as gear cutting) the uses of these very highly alloyed super highspeed steel grades are limited to vibration free, shock resistant set-ups.
While there are many grades (HCS, M2, PM M4, .....) successfully utilized in woodturning, I remain convinced that industrial data and market feedback supports the longstanding use of CPM 10V and CPM 15V in high end woodturning tools. Both grades possess exceptional wear resistance combined with good toughness. Both of these grades are also widely marketed in Europe and Asia by Robert Zapp whose headquarters are in Dusseldorf.
Joachim:
I am very familiar with the referenced Staley (and students) paper. In fact my company and I participated in the study by submitting steels, and reviewing preliminary data. I have since retired. I also attended a presentation of its results at an AAW national symposium. The data is at variance with longstanding performance data in the pulp, paper, and wood processing industries, for CPM 10V. CPM 10V excels in wear applications where M2, and higher alloyed highspeed steels would not even be considered.
The Staley paper involved an effort (student class exercise) to develop a direct measurement method to compare wear properties of various steels in a specific machining configuration (Ringmaster). The students generated data and then attempted with the help of their professors to model the main variables that may contribute to tool life. As with most initial studies, this one generated questions for further studies.
The samples which they used were provided by different vendors and represented a wide range of hardness. This is because each grade was designed and heat treated for different applications. Different cutting tool applications require different balances of wear resistance, toughness, and hardness. The students arrived at the conclusion that wear resistance was a combination of material hardness and volume of carbides within the materials’ matrices. They found that the least wear resistant was M2, and the most wear resistant was Rex 86. They then extrapolated this data to infer performance characteristics about other untested grades. They specifically point out that CPM 10V performed worse than expected. This should have been a flag to perform more testing and re-affirm the methodology.
The predictive model which they then designed uses hardness and carbide volume as it’s principal variables. In fact, the carbide volumes which they measured are not consistent with accurate steel research determinations. The reported carbide volumes for CPM 10V are 35% below actual values. This puts into question the predictive model.
A very important material property not addressed in the Staley study is toughness or resistance to breakage. This is a critical element in woodturning, where vibration, tool catches, interrupted cuts, out of balance blanks and long extensions over a tool rest are commonplace. All of this is going on while the turner is hanging onto the tool near the cutting tip. There is no doubt that a high hardness capability material like CPM Rex 86 and ASP60 can make a wear resistant turning tool. However, the impact toughness of these grades is well below that of CPM 10V, CPM M4, and M2. Turning gouges and scrapers are subjected to shock loads, tool catches, drops onto the floor, etc. I am concerned about the use of very high hardness (HRC 67-69) highspeed steels in these applications. Even in metal cutting operations (such as gear cutting) the uses of these very highly alloyed super highspeed steel grades are limited to vibration free, shock resistant set-ups.
While there are many grades (HCS, M2, PM M4, .....) successfully utilized in woodturning, I remain convinced that industrial data and market feedback supports the longstanding use of CPM 10V and CPM 15V in high end woodturning tools. Both grades possess exceptional wear resistance combined with good toughness. Both of these grades are also widely marketed in Europe and Asia by Robert Zapp whose headquarters are in Dusseldorf.
I'm obviously not Jerry. But I have tools from Dave and a V10 gouge. Honestly if there is a user "feelable" difference, I'm not a good enough turner to tell.
I can say that the M42 skew edge lasts longer then the Lacer 2060 skew. And that the M42 tools last longer then the M2 tools.
As Jerry was referring, process matters. I have Benjamens Best gouges and some basic UK M2 gouges. I can 100% tell the difference between how long the edge lasts on these. Even though they are all "M2". I suspect it is because the BB tools process is not as well controlled as the "main line" M2 tools.
I still endorse by BB tools, for people starting, cause it's cheaper to grind off cheap steel then expensive steel, as you learn to sharpen
TTFN
Ralph
Moving forward with innovation
Kelly,
As Dr. Wright mentioned, procedures are not born overnight. It takes years of dedication to implement them successfully. I like his analogy:
Grinding a flute using similar materials is only the beginning.. (even that task alone takes a deep study of geometry.)
When faced with the task of continuing Jerry's work, my goal was to enhance and innovate on his years of research and development. Obviously, I am fortunate to have had Jerry Glaser next to me analyzing some of the innovations we've implemented. Jerry has sold hundreds of thousands of tools throughout the years and that results in customer feedback, which then turns into refinement.
And years of refinement generates more innovation. This timeline illustrates Jerry relentless pursuit of innovation:
1966 -Introduces commercially available high-speed turning tools.
1966 -Introduces milled turning gouges from round stock rather than stamped or hot forged.
1966 -Introduces first commercially available tools truly sharpened and hand-honed ready for use.
1975 -Introduces commercially available †Particle Metals†to woodturning tools.
1980 -First to offer turning tools in an array of specialty steels, including M2, M4, CPM10V & CPM15V.
1982 -Develops commercially available grinding jig with holding and manipulation features. Precursor of all grinding jigs available today.
1985 -Introduces interchangeable turning tools with single handle.
1985 -Introduces commercially made metal turning tool handles loaded with lead shot to dampen vibration.
1985 -Introduces multiple-based Glaser Screw Chuck (three different bases on the same chuck).
1988 -Develops double articulating hollow turning/boring tools.
1989 -Develops first bowl skew.
1995 -Introduces cryogenically treated steel at -300°F for extra toughness.
So, in 1980, this man sees the potential of Powder Metal and decides to use it in a woodturning tool. If I am not mistaken, Dr. Wright was an employee of Crucible when Jerry started inquiring about CPM10V and CPM15V back then. I am sure he can shed a lot more light on the beginning of Jerry's usage of CPM steels than I can. Every time I ask Jerry how he had the foresight to start using superior metals, he smiles and responds:
I wrote a letter to the British manufacturers about it suggesting that they use these superior steels... I never heard back from them, so I decided to make my own...
I was only 26 years old then and getting ready to my big adventure of "Coming to America". I don't know exactly how old Doug and Dave were, but I assure you we were not thinking that CPM steels could be used in a woodturning tool.
My only quest is to continue to innovate based on proven quality and production methods Jerry has developed. Our current AS9100 guidelines and equipment, gives us an advantage on making sure that the procedures are followed properly. Our production guidelines are resident in our server and present in the manufacturing floor, so employees can consult it in case of any questions.
I am positive that all tool manufacturers mentioned on this post want to provide the "best customer service possible" to their existing and potential customers. I have heard great stories from people who are happy with Doug's and Dave Schweitzer's personal touch and attention to their customers, and that only enhances their product, but ultimately, performance and quality play a big part on the customer's decision.
My personal take is that I will never be 100% satisfied with my quality levels and basically "relax". I am obligated to achieve perfection. I will never be able to fill Jerry's shoes, but I can certainly polish them
I do not need to make a living making woodturning tools and I can say that the current financial situation of this country, places us ALL at peril (woodturners who make a living woodturning and tool and accessory manufacturers). We are all fighting for market share over a "hobby" which is considered a luxury to most. I assure you that if we had just experienced a disaster like what happened in Japan, our main concern would be "survival" and not tools. We would be posting things like: "Hey, does anybody know where I can get some clean water?
I remember when I owned the biggest shooting range in Los Angeles. Sold $300,000 in memberships BEFORE I even opened my doors. Got comfortable and extended the lease for another 10 years thinking about the future sellout and then... the Northridge earthquake hit. Membership went from 20,000 members (that's right.. 20,000 people) down to 800... and the rest you can imagine what happened...
Now, I have been handed down a legend and I have the OBLIGATION to produce something that is BETTER than what Jerry made and fight to make it better than anybody else. That was my commitment to him.
So, in my opinion Kelly, Jerry has plenty of laurels to rest on!
I wish you all health and prosperity. We should always be able to talk to each other. Perhaps Kelly's post was designed to bring everybody closer to work together. So, based on that, Doug and Dave, I wish you guys the best. I have never had the pleasure to meet Dave, but I heard great things about him. I have met and talked to Doug before.. Aside from our differences, I know Doug is an honest and decent person who has worked very hard throughout the years for his family. Married a lovely lady by the name of Pat (great smile), went to West Tech in Cleveland and watches Masterpiece Theater like I do. I also like very much Mary Catherine Gallagher which tells me they have laughed as Karin and I have watching Molly Shannon in "Superstar" ( I love seeing her kiss the tree).
Paulo Marin
ps: sorry for the long reply
Kelly,
As Dr. Wright mentioned, procedures are not born overnight. It takes years of dedication to implement them successfully. I like his analogy:
Grinding a flute using similar materials is only the beginning.. (even that task alone takes a deep study of geometry.)
When faced with the task of continuing Jerry's work, my goal was to enhance and innovate on his years of research and development. Obviously, I am fortunate to have had Jerry Glaser next to me analyzing some of the innovations we've implemented. Jerry has sold hundreds of thousands of tools throughout the years and that results in customer feedback, which then turns into refinement.
And years of refinement generates more innovation. This timeline illustrates Jerry relentless pursuit of innovation:
1966 -Introduces commercially available high-speed turning tools.
1966 -Introduces milled turning gouges from round stock rather than stamped or hot forged.
1966 -Introduces first commercially available tools truly sharpened and hand-honed ready for use.
1975 -Introduces commercially available †Particle Metals†to woodturning tools.
1980 -First to offer turning tools in an array of specialty steels, including M2, M4, CPM10V & CPM15V.
1982 -Develops commercially available grinding jig with holding and manipulation features. Precursor of all grinding jigs available today.
1985 -Introduces interchangeable turning tools with single handle.
1985 -Introduces commercially made metal turning tool handles loaded with lead shot to dampen vibration.
1985 -Introduces multiple-based Glaser Screw Chuck (three different bases on the same chuck).
1988 -Develops double articulating hollow turning/boring tools.
1989 -Develops first bowl skew.
1995 -Introduces cryogenically treated steel at -300°F for extra toughness.
So, in 1980, this man sees the potential of Powder Metal and decides to use it in a woodturning tool. If I am not mistaken, Dr. Wright was an employee of Crucible when Jerry started inquiring about CPM10V and CPM15V back then. I am sure he can shed a lot more light on the beginning of Jerry's usage of CPM steels than I can. Every time I ask Jerry how he had the foresight to start using superior metals, he smiles and responds:
I wrote a letter to the British manufacturers about it suggesting that they use these superior steels... I never heard back from them, so I decided to make my own...
I was only 26 years old then and getting ready to my big adventure of "Coming to America". I don't know exactly how old Doug and Dave were, but I assure you we were not thinking that CPM steels could be used in a woodturning tool.
My only quest is to continue to innovate based on proven quality and production methods Jerry has developed. Our current AS9100 guidelines and equipment, gives us an advantage on making sure that the procedures are followed properly. Our production guidelines are resident in our server and present in the manufacturing floor, so employees can consult it in case of any questions.
I am positive that all tool manufacturers mentioned on this post want to provide the "best customer service possible" to their existing and potential customers. I have heard great stories from people who are happy with Doug's and Dave Schweitzer's personal touch and attention to their customers, and that only enhances their product, but ultimately, performance and quality play a big part on the customer's decision.
My personal take is that I will never be 100% satisfied with my quality levels and basically "relax". I am obligated to achieve perfection. I will never be able to fill Jerry's shoes, but I can certainly polish them
I do not need to make a living making woodturning tools and I can say that the current financial situation of this country, places us ALL at peril (woodturners who make a living woodturning and tool and accessory manufacturers). We are all fighting for market share over a "hobby" which is considered a luxury to most. I assure you that if we had just experienced a disaster like what happened in Japan, our main concern would be "survival" and not tools. We would be posting things like: "Hey, does anybody know where I can get some clean water?
I remember when I owned the biggest shooting range in Los Angeles. Sold $300,000 in memberships BEFORE I even opened my doors. Got comfortable and extended the lease for another 10 years thinking about the future sellout and then... the Northridge earthquake hit. Membership went from 20,000 members (that's right.. 20,000 people) down to 800... and the rest you can imagine what happened...
Now, I have been handed down a legend and I have the OBLIGATION to produce something that is BETTER than what Jerry made and fight to make it better than anybody else. That was my commitment to him.
So, in my opinion Kelly, Jerry has plenty of laurels to rest on!
I wish you all health and prosperity. We should always be able to talk to each other. Perhaps Kelly's post was designed to bring everybody closer to work together. So, based on that, Doug and Dave, I wish you guys the best. I have never had the pleasure to meet Dave, but I heard great things about him. I have met and talked to Doug before.. Aside from our differences, I know Doug is an honest and decent person who has worked very hard throughout the years for his family. Married a lovely lady by the name of Pat (great smile), went to West Tech in Cleveland and watches Masterpiece Theater like I do. I also like very much Mary Catherine Gallagher which tells me they have laughed as Karin and I have watching Molly Shannon in "Superstar" ( I love seeing her kiss the tree).
Paulo Marin
ps: sorry for the long reply
1st off I want to say I am finding this conversation wonderful.
Ralph, I agree with you about Bs best tools. No brainer for beginners.
If I had to pick two people who have advanced woodturning in both unsung and sung it would be Dale Nish and Jerry Glaser. Without them I truly doubt the field would be what it is today. Dale for promotion and Jerry for inventivness. Most anything else relating has been built on their shoulders. I am of course open to other suggestions. But those two names seemed to rise to the top when I thought about it.
Ralph, I agree with you about Bs best tools. No brainer for beginners.
If I had to pick two people who have advanced woodturning in both unsung and sung it would be Dale Nish and Jerry Glaser. Without them I truly doubt the field would be what it is today. Dale for promotion and Jerry for inventivness. Most anything else relating has been built on their shoulders. I am of course open to other suggestions. But those two names seemed to rise to the top when I thought about it.
My understanding is other manufactures have tested CPM 10V and know it's a better steel but never change the product. I don't know why, the cost to produce is not that much higher than M4 and you get so much more. I do know Paulo, we talked on the phone twice years ago, we would probably get along. One day we will meet in person and I'll introduce you to my wife but the dog is not allowed at symposiums.
This above information is from my wifes FaceBook page... you creeped her out that you posted it here. Why would you bring information found on/from a facebook page to this forum... you don't know her.
This above information is from my wifes FaceBook page... you creeped her out that you posted it here. Why would you bring information found on/from a facebook page to this forum... you don't know her.
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I am sorry you feel this way
Doug,
My post was intended as a compliment. Your wife Pat seems to be a lovely lady and the dog is really cute. Facebook is a social gate. If you have a Facebook account you can search for people and the basic information about them will come up.
I am sure you were aware of that when you posted about your background and uploaded your personal pictures on Facebook. That is what it was designed for! (You should rent the movie "The Social Network") Besides Doug, personal information and pictures just don't appear out of nowhere. (Did you make that rocking chair? It is beautiful... It reminds me of the one Jerry Glaser has in his living room from Sam Maloof).
You might not remember, but you have introduced yourself to me before and we have spoken on the phone, but instead of making statements about you, I decided to "learn" about you. And that is what I did! By reading your Facebook page.. (don't you wish you and I had thought about that one??? We would not be talking about tools today).
Also, I have been told by people who attended the symposium that you and your wife Pat are great people
I am sad you did NOT pay attention to this part of the post:
Aside from our differences, I know Doug is an honest and decent person who has worked very hard throughout the years for his family.
If I have offended you by saying that you have a lovely wife and that you have worked hard to get where you are, I am very sorry. It was intended as a compliment and a way to, as you said, "get along". If you believe it was an insult, please accept my apologies.
No matter what, I will stand by my statement that Mary Catherine Gallagher is "really cute" (even though she is not allowed in symposiums... she would make a great tool mascot for Thompson Tools, like my Linguini is my "Shop Dog".)
I would still love to meet her. And I STILL wish you well!
Paulo Marin
Glaser Hitec Engineering
Advanced Theoretical Concepts, Inc.
Doug,
My post was intended as a compliment. Your wife Pat seems to be a lovely lady and the dog is really cute. Facebook is a social gate. If you have a Facebook account you can search for people and the basic information about them will come up.
I am sure you were aware of that when you posted about your background and uploaded your personal pictures on Facebook. That is what it was designed for! (You should rent the movie "The Social Network") Besides Doug, personal information and pictures just don't appear out of nowhere. (Did you make that rocking chair? It is beautiful... It reminds me of the one Jerry Glaser has in his living room from Sam Maloof).
You might not remember, but you have introduced yourself to me before and we have spoken on the phone, but instead of making statements about you, I decided to "learn" about you. And that is what I did! By reading your Facebook page.. (don't you wish you and I had thought about that one??? We would not be talking about tools today).
Also, I have been told by people who attended the symposium that you and your wife Pat are great people
I am sad you did NOT pay attention to this part of the post:
Aside from our differences, I know Doug is an honest and decent person who has worked very hard throughout the years for his family.
If I have offended you by saying that you have a lovely wife and that you have worked hard to get where you are, I am very sorry. It was intended as a compliment and a way to, as you said, "get along". If you believe it was an insult, please accept my apologies.
No matter what, I will stand by my statement that Mary Catherine Gallagher is "really cute" (even though she is not allowed in symposiums... she would make a great tool mascot for Thompson Tools, like my Linguini is my "Shop Dog".)
I would still love to meet her. And I STILL wish you well!
Paulo Marin
Glaser Hitec Engineering
Advanced Theoretical Concepts, Inc.
John, you made me laugh, thanks.
Paulo and Doug, Paulo should have mentioned he got that info off your wifes facebook page Doug. He did not, he explained it lets move on. If you really want a creep factor how bout looking up a name and you get detailed directions to their house? In our state of machines at this moment if you think anything you put out over the net in any fashion can not be seen by just about everyone? Especially on a thing like facebook?
Doug, I take Paulo at his word unless at some time I dont. If he says he wanted to get to know you then it was all there for him to do so. In public. When I want to know more about a turner, well, or anyone, you start with google or what the person has said about themselves in the profile section of perhaps this very forum. I sure use the profile info on wow when I want more info on a turner. Then I go from there.
Back to tool making. Even though you two and others compete for in essence a small amount of business there should,I hope, be no need to not be at least friendly towards one another. And has been stated turners begin liking a tool and keep using it thus becoming a loyal buyer of your product.
My goal with chiming in on this was to learn the process and help aswage my ignorance. My goal is being met. I am very thankful to each and every one who is chiming in on this discussion. I would like more testimonials from users if any wish to add 2C.
Paulo and Doug, Paulo should have mentioned he got that info off your wifes facebook page Doug. He did not, he explained it lets move on. If you really want a creep factor how bout looking up a name and you get detailed directions to their house? In our state of machines at this moment if you think anything you put out over the net in any fashion can not be seen by just about everyone? Especially on a thing like facebook?
Doug, I take Paulo at his word unless at some time I dont. If he says he wanted to get to know you then it was all there for him to do so. In public. When I want to know more about a turner, well, or anyone, you start with google or what the person has said about themselves in the profile section of perhaps this very forum. I sure use the profile info on wow when I want more info on a turner. Then I go from there.
Back to tool making. Even though you two and others compete for in essence a small amount of business there should,I hope, be no need to not be at least friendly towards one another. And has been stated turners begin liking a tool and keep using it thus becoming a loyal buyer of your product.
My goal with chiming in on this was to learn the process and help aswage my ignorance. My goal is being met. I am very thankful to each and every one who is chiming in on this discussion. I would like more testimonials from users if any wish to add 2C.
Normally I avoid any of these discussions when they get a bit off topic, but why not. I have a couple of the Glaser tools from the Louisville symposium, my son Justin volunteered in the Booth shouting out the numbers for the drawing and general gofer stuff. Paulo gave him a 5/8" bowl gouge and scraper and had his name engraved on them. I've inherited the tools as he has moved on to non turning interests. Girls, mostly. I really didn’t like the tools until I had a chance to take a class from, of all people Stuart Batty. He showed me a few things (well a lot really) I was doing wrong with my techniques. I went home pulled out the Glaser tool and low and behold it worked beautifully. But when I tried to get more…well let’s just say it was a challenge. I’m glad Paulo has the tools back up and available. But in the mean time I needed or wanted tools. Doug’s tools were available, great steel, cost effective and fit the handles I like to make. Both tools work great especially when you learn to use and sharpen them. I have and still use everything from BB, P&N, and yes even Buck tools, so I would say I have the full range of steel in my shop, sorry, studio. Thompson tools have great steel hold an edge and when I have a problem I can call Doug and talk about it. When I don’t have a problem, I can still call and talk about it. Doug was kind enough to even let my use his grinder at the Tri-State symposium in Gainesville this year even after someone messed up his grinding wheel. I hope both companies do well and I hope Stuart’s tools find good homes. We need as many options as we can get, as every woodturner I know has “his†way of doing things. For me…well I’ll stick with Doug’s tools as I have a fair collection and I like him and his tools. But that doesn’t mean I’m giving up my Glaser tools and when it needs replacement, I’ll be giving Paulo and his gang a call. I really like options! Oh speaking of handles I just finished a 31†handle for my hollowing tools based somewhat on David Ellsworth’s handles for my Trent Bosch tools what a thing of beauty. It works great I’ve already blown up a hollow form with it. Should have used a carbide bit tool….nah! OPTIONS gentlemen.
