Got a free freezer... Now what?

[Mark Hepburn]

Okay, so I have a nice upright freezer that was free. No refrigerant remaining but the works are still in it (and those I'm going to remove). I plan on making a drying kiln of it and have been reading tons of material on the web at various forums, blogs and DIY sites. The debate rages on and I thought, why not start a debate right here regarding same?

So I'm asking, what is the optimal way to convert this thing, which will reside in a conditioned space in a room adjacent to my shop? I have some spare lamps, lots of large drill bits and so on. What I lack is knowledge on a variety of topics.

My first impulse is to put a bunch of holes in the sides at top and bottom, stick in a 60W incandescent, and let convection do its work. On the other hand, there's a part of me that wants to front mount a hygrometer with a probe, put a louvered door somewhere in it with a PC fan and a humidistat and so on. But really, you engineering types here are the ones with the skill set for this not me. I'm basically a glorified chef (ex- at that).

So having said all that, can a brother get a hand here?

<soapbox>

And please, don't say something like, " well you need a 12.v stepper drive with boolean logic and a 3 phase capacitating-inductor whoosit with a DRAM/RAMDAC vapor proximity sensor... "

What I'm saying is, dumb it down a bit. I can wire a ceiling fan and replace GFCIs without getting electrocuted. And it's been almost 50 years since I built that last Heathkit radio.

</end soapbox>

Anyway, in all seriousness, I'd appreciate some help. I was thinking about putting a dehumidifier in it with the collection hose poking out, and putting in a small fan. As to the hygrometer, I did find one on Amazon for about 20 bucks that has good reviews and a probe. So I can put it in the freezer and glue the display on the door.

But there are so many questions about how to optimize this, such as fan, yes or no and what type and how much air movement do I need? Lights, how many and so on.

So thanks to any of you who took the time to read this.

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... And please, don't say something like, " well you need a 12.v stepper drive with boolean logic and a 3 phase capacitating-inductor whoosit with a DRAM/RAMDAC vapor proximity sensor... "

What I'm saying is, dumb it down a bit. I can wire a ceiling fan and replace GFCIs without getting electrocuted. And it's been almost 50 years since I built that last Heathkit radio. .....

The short snippy dumbed down answer is that it is a waste of time. Knowing that you will do it anyway and that in Houma, LA it might even be useful, here is a more useful answer: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f6/drying-oven-99874/

There is a lot more bad advice than good on the net. If they say drill a bunch of holes then keep searching. If they say that you need a 3 phase capacitating-inductor whoosit with a DRAM/RAMDAC vapor proximity sensor ...... you're not quite there yet. Look for Trent Bosch to see if his web site still has information on this.

I thought that in Louisiana you were supposed to put the fridge in the front yard next to the car on blocks.

 

[billooms]

I made mine many years ago based on directions from Kelly Dunn (Hawaii). Send him an email if you like. I cut out the divider between the top freezer and the bottom refrigerator to make one big chamber (but from the photo it appears you don't have to do that). Drill 1/2" holes in the top and in the bottom -- spaced about 6" apart. This lets air in the bottom and out the top. I put a 40 watt light bulb in the bottom with a dimmer on it. This provides a slight convection current to circulate the air. It will also heat up the inside a bit (but that's not what you're looking for) -- hence the dimmer to turn it down on hot days.

In use, rough out your blanks and seal the end grain. Stack the bowls/vases open side down in the kiln. You want to fill it up as much as possible. It does not work to try to dry just one or two pieces.

The way it works is when you load it up and shut the door, the inside humidity goes up to near 100%. Then over the coarse of about 6 weeks the humidity gradually comes down. Depending on your climate, it may take longer. Check with a moisture meter until you get used to it. You don't want to add a dehumidifier. The goal is to have the humidity come down slowly with even drying throughout the pieces. Fast drying sets up stress in the wood which causes the cracking.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

The short snippy dumbed down answer is that it is a waste of time. Knowing that you will do it anyway and that in Houma, LA it might even be useful, here is a more useful answer: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f6/drying-oven-99874/

There is a lot more bad advice than good on the net. If they say drill a bunch of holes then keep searching. If they say that you need a 3 phase capacitating-inductor whoosit with a DRAM/RAMDAC vapor proximity sensor ...... you're not quite there yet. Look for Trent Bosch to see if his web site still has information on this.

I thought that in Louisiana you were supposed to put the fridge in the front yard next to the car on blocks.

Good morning Bill.

No, down here any old appliances go out front between the old truck and the old fiberglass boat with the hole in it (in the front yard). 'Less you's on da bayou. Then any old place on da dock will do.

I was just going to heat the fridge with the grill next to it (see photo) but that would be gauche.



Seriously, I saw tons of posts with, "first you drill 50 1/2" holes in it. First thing I thought of was, if I ever decide to put this thing outside (out back a da houzz we say), then I've basically built a condo for skeeters and wasps.

Thanks for the links!

Mark

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Looks like an interesting project and I've been curious about these myself. Tuning in to see how it goes.

Doug, who always wanted a Heathkit...

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I made mine many years ago based on directions from Kelly Dunn (Hawaii). Send him an email if you like. I cut out the divider between the top freezer and the bottom refrigerator to make one big chamber (but from the photo it appears you don't have to do that). Drill 1/2" holes in the top and in the bottom -- spaced about 6" apart. This lets air in the bottom and out the top. I put a 40 watt light bulb in the bottom with a dimmer on it. This provides a slight convection current to circulate the air. It will also heat up the inside a bit (but that's not what you're looking for) -- hence the dimmer to turn it down on hot days.

In use, rough out your blanks and seal the end grain. Stack the bowls/vases open side down in the kiln. You want to fill it up as much as possible. It does not work to try to dry just one or two pieces.

The way it works is when you load it up and shut the door, the inside humidity goes up to near 100%. Then over the coarse of about 6 weeks the humidity gradually comes down. Depending on your climate, it may take longer. Check with a moisture meter until you get used to it. You don't want to add a dehumidifier. The goal is to have the humidity come down slowly with even drying throughout the pieces. Fast drying sets up stress in the wood which causes the cracking.

Bill,

NOW I understand about the dehumidifier. Thanks because I was genuinely wondering about that. So a simple dimmer switch sounds like a simple solution. I'm assuming you mean by moisture meter to actually check the MC on the product, not just monitor at the door, which would render the door-mount hygrometer pointless it would seem?

I'm going to check into you advice on Kelly Dunn, as well as Bill Boehme's mention about Trent Bosch too.

Thanks!

(by the way, I have to tell you your work is amazing to be able to look at "in person" instead of just photos.)

 

[Bill Boehme]

The way that Trent Bosch did his design was with a light bulb, a fan, and a dehumidifier. Not using a dehumidifier and circulating outside air through the box still leaves you at the mercy of the local environment ... modified a bit by the extra heat from the light bulb. This might be a good time to mention that this is one place where a CFL or LED is NOT as good as an old fashioned tungsten bulb.

A number of years ago when Trent Bosch was at our club to conduct a week of classes he did an in-depth description of how his system worked. His box was quite large -- about 8' X 4' X 4' and he didn't start the dehumidifier until the box was full. Also, the dehumidifier didn't run open-loop as most people assume. It was programmed to have a controlled rate of reduction in humidity for several weeks (I don't recall the number). Because of the controlled humidity reduction rate, it isn't necessary to Anchorseal the end grain. He said that his design was based somewhat on the process used commercially to kiln dry lumber except that he doesn't do the kiln drying part that gets the wood to a lower dryness than the EMC achieved by air drying.

I thought that I have heard about all of the drying techniques out there, but here is one more ... vacuum drying (starts on page 5):
http://svwoodturners.org/docs/Newsletters/2006/10-2006
It sounds interesting.

 

[Mark Mandell]

I thought that in Louisiana you were supposed to put the fridge in the front yard next to the car on blocks.

He has to repaint it Harvest Gold first.

[That would be on the frig. The car get painted red, chartreuse, and primer]

Oh, and don't foget to flat them tars.

 

[Bill Boehme]

He has to repaint it Harvest Gold first.

[That would be on the frig. The car get painted red, chartreuse, and primer]

Oh, and don't foget to flat them tars.

Whut tarzz, bubba?

BTW, I recognize that sofa in the picture. I told Mrs. B. that a little duct tape here and there and it would be good for another fifteen years, at least. I would have bet folding money that she would have been persuaded by my logic if she had only seen all the nice colors and patters that duct tape comes in now. I was able to breathe new life into a folding camp chair with Mossy Oak[SUP]®[/SUP] pattern duct tape that draws the attention of other campers. I'm sure that they are envious.

I couldn't find Trent Bosch's plans online, Mark, but you might try emailing him. The only hole that his box had was for the drain tube. In order to prevent any air leaks, he sealed the lid with duct tape. I think that plain gray would work here.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

He has to repaint it Harvest Gold first.

[That would be on the frig. The car get painted red, chartreuse, and primer]

Oh, and don't foget to flat them tars.

Mais yeah, Took dem tars off'n mah truck. Needed some planter boxes for da hard and a bumper to mah udder boat, sha.

Ah, harvest gold. And avocado. Weren't the 70's just awesome?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Whut tarzz, bubba?

BTW, I recognize that sofa in the picture. I told Mrs. B. that a little duct tape here and there and it would be good for another fifteen years, at least. I would have bet folding money that she would have been persuaded by my logic if she had only seen all the nice colors and patters that duct tape comes in now. I was able to breathe new life into a folding camp chair with Mossy Oak[SUP]®[/SUP] pattern duct tape that draws the attention of other campers. I'm sure that they are envious.

I couldn't find Trent Bosch's plans online, Mark, but you might try emailing him. The only hole that his box had was for the drain tube. In order to prevent any air leaks, he sealed the lid with duct tape. I think that plain gray would work here.

Yes, that is a choice couch. Rescued it from the trash. Up cycling. Like your chair, Bill.

I'll email Mr. Bosch and ask. Meanwhile I have gutted the working innards and cleaned her up.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

That vacuum kiln is interesting. I'm going to ponder it while pursuing my free kiln freezer plans.

 

[dave clausen]

I just built a dryer out of a small refridge. i put a line voltage thermastat inside the fridge to control my lamp i also went to ace hardware and bought a small 4 inch fan this on all the time you have to monkey with the thermastat to your liking, kinda of a trial I was able to take italian olive wood from 30 percent to 10 percent in 4 weeks. it works awesome.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... Needed some planter boxes for da hard and a bumper to mah udder boat, sha ....

"Sha"?

You gettin' all Cajun on us, sha? And, it's pirogue, not boat less you mean "boat ark" ... das da wood dat dey used to build da Ark, sha.

Muh baby brudder married hisself a Cajun woman so he can talk da talk. Well, sort of. He always manages to get in trouble when they go out to eat at a Cajun restaurant when they go to Louisiana to visit her relatives. He also learned that when Cajuns say "go visit" they mean for about a week if it is a short visit.

 

[KellyDunn]

Mark, make this easy on yourself.
Do NOT overthink this. What Bill Ooms says is true. I have four of them. Three are running right now. A few 1/2 inch holes in the top and bottom with the light socket in as much bottom center as you can. Space the 1/2 inch holes. I drilled to many so closed a few up. The space is so the convection does not bring up air in one spot. Its slow but goes 24/7. Bills idea of a dimme ris great as the incandescent bulbs are getting harder to get as time goes by. I have one finish kiln with a 23 watt cfl in it. But these are pieces I had taken down to 6% and its so wet here that I want to bring them back down before finishing. My main finish kiln I do a 40 watt bulb. Thats for pieces in the actual finishing process so the mix(finish) dries overnight. For wet wood since I now work alone I just do a 40 watt bulb. I dont do a dimmer cause I dont care. But will switch when I cant get 40 watt bulbs. The 40 watt dries many more bowls than I can finish. You start high and move low. A moisture meter is a very good thing to own. In case you wonder if I know what I am talking about these kilns have been going 25 years now. I think I got this down.
I dont hang on this forum. Tend to be on WOW. Any questions give me an email or call. I am in the AAW directory. I answer my emails and am happy to chat to help folks out.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

"Sha"?

You gettin' all Cajun on us, sha? And, it's pirogue, not boat less you mean "boat ark" ... das da wood dat dey used to build da Ark, sha.

Muh baby brudder married hisself a Cajun woman so he can talk da talk. Well, sort of. He always manages to get in trouble when they go out to eat at a Cajun restaurant when they go to Louisiana to visit her relatives. He also learned that when Cajuns say "go visit" they mean for about a week if it is a short visit.

Bill, I bow to the master.

You know what we call Cajun food down here?


Food.


(sorry, ripped off that old joke)


I'm surprised if your brother married a Cajun woman that he gets to talk at all

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark, make this easy on yourself.
Do NOT overthink this. What Bill Ooms says is true. I have four of them. Three are running right now. A few 1/2 inch holes in the top and bottom with the light socket in as much bottom center as you can. Space the 1/2 inch holes. I drilled to many so closed a few up. The space is so the convection does not bring up air in one spot. Its slow but goes 24/7. Bills idea of a dimme ris great as the incandescent bulbs are getting harder to get as time goes by. I have one finish kiln with a 23 watt cfl in it. But these are pieces I had taken down to 6% and its so wet here that I want to bring them back down before finishing. My main finish kiln I do a 40 watt bulb. Thats for pieces in the actual finishing process so the mix(finish) dries overnight. For wet wood since I now work alone I just do a 40 watt bulb. I dont do a dimmer cause I dont care. But will switch when I cant get 40 watt bulbs. The 40 watt dries many more bowls than I can finish. You start high and move low. A moisture meter is a very good thing to own. In case you wonder if I know what I am talking about these kilns have been going 25 years now. I think I got this down.
I dont hang on this forum. Tend to be on WOW. Any questions give me an email or call. I am in the AAW directory. I answer my emails and am happy to chat to help folks out.

Hi Kelly, thanks very much for checking in.

For starters, I know you definitely know what you're talking about I've been to your website quite a few times (and love the Houdini piece among others by the way).

Okay, so I'm going to do what you and Bill said. Keep it simple. Drill the holes, put in the bulb at bottom and I can put the dimmer switch on the side. I would like to send off an email with a few questions but for the moment, gonna wrestle this freezer into my shop and get to Lowe's and grab some of their remaining incandescents.

Thanks again,

Mark

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I just built a dryer out of a small refridge. i put a line voltage thermastat inside the fridge to control my lamp i also went to ace hardware and bought a small 4 inch fan this on all the time you have to monkey with the thermastat to your liking, kinda of a trial I was able to take italian olive wood from 30 percent to 10 percent in 4 weeks. it works awesome.

Dave, thanks!

 

[billooms]

Bill,

NOW I understand about the dehumidifier. Thanks because I was genuinely wondering about that. So a simple dimmer switch sounds like a simple solution. I'm assuming you mean by moisture meter to actually check the MC on the product, not just monitor at the door, which would render the door-mount hygrometer pointless it would seem?

(by the way, I have to tell you your work is amazing to be able to look at "in person" instead of just photos.)

Right -- check the moisture of the wood. I use a Lignomat meter (with pins that poke into the wood just a bit). Here in Arizona, 4 weeks is enough. But I seem to remember Kelly saying it takes him longer in humid Hawaii.

Bill

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Mark, make this easy on yourself.
Do NOT overthink this. What Bill Ooms says is true. I have four of them. Three are running right now. A few 1/2 inch holes in the top and bottom with the light socket in as much bottom center as you can. Space the 1/2 inch holes. I drilled to many so closed a few up. The space is so the convection does not bring up air in one spot. Its slow but goes 24/7. Bills idea of a dimme ris great as the incandescent bulbs are getting harder to get as time goes by. I have one finish kiln with a 23 watt cfl in it. But these are pieces I had taken down to 6% and its so wet here that I want to bring them back down before finishing. My main finish kiln I do a 40 watt bulb. Thats for pieces in the actual finishing process so the mix(finish) dries overnight. For wet wood since I now work alone I just do a 40 watt bulb. I dont do a dimmer cause I dont care. But will switch when I cant get 40 watt bulbs. The 40 watt dries many more bowls than I can finish. You start high and move low. A moisture meter is a very good thing to own. In case you wonder if I know what I am talking about these kilns have been going 25 years now. I think I got this down.
I dont hang on this forum. Tend to be on WOW. Any questions give me an email or call. I am in the AAW directory. I answer my emails and am happy to chat to help folks out.

A point or counterpoint to Kelly is that in the south MS and LA you will not get equilibrium moisture level of 6%. In flat work 8-12 is fine . In my experience in turning moisture level is not the important point as a fixed level, it is the equilibrium you are looking for. When a piece stops losing weight for 2-3 days it is time for the second turn. I am not in such a hurry that I need a kiln to dry wood. Oh there is one more thing when a piece goes inside then all this may be a mote point as indoor moisture is usually different than most shops so it will reach eq for the area the piece is used or displayed. And while I am on the subject the finish (no matter which) will not stop moisture changes in a cfinished wood piece.

 

[John Torchick]

FWIW, custom fishing rod builders fabricate a box for drying the epoxy on a rod. Many use the rope lights that you get for accent lighting. You could coil it up in the bottom of the refer. OR......you could recharge the compressor, fill it with ice cream and invite all of over.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

A point or counterpoint to Kelly is that in the south MS and LA you will not get equilibrium moisture level of 6%. In flat work 8-12 is fine . In my experience in turning moisture level is not the important point as a fixed level, it is the equilibrium you are looking for. When a piece stops losing weight for 2-3 days it is time for the second turn. I am not in such a hurry that I need a kiln to dry wood. Oh there is one more thing when a piece goes inside then all this may be a mote point as indoor moisture is usually different than most shops so it will reach eq for the area the piece is used or displayed. And while I am on the subject the finish (no matter which) will not stop moisture changes in a cfinished wood piece.

Gerald,

You have a point about not being in that much of a hurry. I'm simply not able to produce enough stuff to warrant a kiln, but for me it's just a part of the learning process and I was able to get all the parts I need for $9 at Lowe's today

On the other hand, that cost $1 more than my paint booth (2 folded drop cloths stapled to furring strips in the ceiling in the shop).

So you would use a log rather than a moisture meter it sounds like? And track the pieces for equilibrium, which would be the same weight reading over some period, as I've read on other sites?

I've been looking at the moisture meters and reading on the relative merits of one brand over another and well, let's just say there's nothing truly definitive that I find.

My shop is sort of a hybrid. I have the lathes in an insulated, but not ducted, space and it is adjacent to a bedroom that I converted to a sort of assembly and finishing room. It is a conditioned space and the kiln is going in that space also. The only time a piece is not in controlled climate is when it is actually being turned. I'm assuming that this short period of time - hours at most - has a minimal effect on changes in moisture?

And like you say, here in the south we're talking wet vs. sopping wet, right?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

FWIW, custom fishing rod builders fabricate a box for drying the epoxy on a rod. Many use the rope lights that you get for accent lighting. You could coil it up in the bottom of the refer. OR......you could recharge the compressor, fill it with ice cream and invite all of over.

John, now you're talking. C'mon down. I could go for some ice cream right about now. Or really, right about any time.

Which is why these days I'm eating salads and yogurt. sigh.....


I didn't realize those rope lights produced any heat but I guess that if it lights, it must produce some by-product heat at a minimim.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Right -- check the moisture of the wood. I use a Lignomat meter (with pins that poke into the wood just a bit). Here in Arizona, 4 weeks is enough. But I seem to remember Kelly saying it takes him longer in humid Hawaii.

Bill

Bill,

I was just replying to a post from Gerald and thinking about that moisture meter. How did you decide on the Lignomat and which one do you use? I don't mind paying for a quality tool, but also don't want to get a bunch of bells and whistles that I'll not use. I see the "mini" models are all about $110 at Amazon and they have what I guess you'd call fixed pins. I read a FWW article and some others that say perhaps one with a probe might be desirable?

Problem is, there's not anything that I can find specifically written for turning. Mostly flatwork is the focus, although there is mention of thicker stock and so on.


By the way, in AZ don't you just stack it in the sun for a while, and bring it in the house just before it spontaneously combusts?

 

[Hu Lowery]

be careful!

Be careful working around the flux capacitor when gutting the mechanicals. I have heard it has Illudium Q-36 in it!

Hu

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Be careful working around the flux capacitor when gutting the mechanicals. I have heard it has Illudium Q-36 in it!

Hu

I know what you mean, Hu.

I might go back I On my way! And get hit in the face by a workpiece. Tuesday all over again!

Edit: face shield

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Bill,

I was just replying to a post from Gerald and thinking about that moisture meter. How did you decide on the Lignomat and which one do you use? I don't mind paying for a quality tool, but also don't want to get a bunch of bells and whistles that I'll not use. I see the "mini" models are all about $110 at Amazon and they have what I guess you'd call fixed pins. I read a FWW article and some others that say perhaps one with a probe might be desirable?

Problem is, there's not anything that I can find specifically written for turning. Mostly flatwork is the focus, although there is mention of thicker stock and so on.


By the way, in AZ don't you just stack it in the sun for a while, and bring it in the house just before it spontaneously combusts?

In relation to MM , they make some that are pinless which are usually prefered by flat ww now. Pins make holes in the wood. Any mm will only measure about 1/2 inch into the wood and if pinned even less. We turn from logs or thick blanks : therefore how could a meter tell you anything.

I started last year weighing my first turned bowls and follow this procedure:
1. after turning weigh and put in bag with chips with top folded , note weight on chart
2. weigh daily at first (1 week or so) and allow moisture to escape bag. Weight 3 times a week after 10-14 days.
3. continue til losing only 15 GM or less/day for a 1200 GM or so bowl, and remove chips (usually after 10 days)
4. continue in bag till only lose 7 GM /day. then out of bag.
5. Once weight stays the same for 2 or more days it is ready to return.

I have learned that a bowl done this way can gain weight can gain weight. I am planing on creating a graph to show moisture under the curve. After doing the percent calc on 2 bowls, they both ended at equilibrium at 74%. Now for me that is too much coincidence to not be a standard. I will post more on this when I get all the calc done.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

In relation to MM , they make some that are pinless which are usually prefered by flat ww now. Pins make holes in the wood. Any mm will only measure about 1/2 inch into the wood and if pinned even less. We turn from logs or thick blanks : therefore how could a meter tell you anything.

I started last year weighing my first turned bowls and follow this procedure:
1. after turning weigh and put in bag with chips with top folded , note weight on chart
2. weigh daily at first (1 week or so) and allow moisture to escape bag. Weight 3 times a week after 10-14 days.
3. continue til losing only 15 GM or less/day for a 1200 GM or so bowl, and remove chips (usually after 10 days)
4. continue in bag till only lose 7 GM /day. then out of bag.
5. Once weight stays the same for 2 or more days it is ready to return.

I have learned that a bowl done this way can gain weight can gain weight. I am planing on creating a graph to show moisture under the curve. After doing the percent calc on 2 bowls, they both ended at equilibrium at 74%. Now for me that is too much coincidence to not be a standard. I will post more on this when I get all the calc done.

Gerald, do you mind if i PM you with a few questions?

Mark

 

[billooms]

How did you decide on the Lignomat and which one do you use? I don't mind paying for a quality tool, but also don't want to get a bunch of bells and whistles that I'll not use. I see the "mini" models are all about $110 at Amazon and they have what I guess you'd call fixed pins.

I've had my Lignomat for a long time and the models have changed. It's got the pins built in and you can select a number of different woods. Most of the woods I'm interested in aren't in their list, so I just leave it on the Hard Maple setting most of the time. I would suggest one of the "mini" models.

If I leave wood on the shelf in the shop here in Arizona, it usually cracks within a day or two because it dries out too fast. Then it goes out on the burn pile to complete it's spontaneous combustion.

 

[hockenbery]

Hi have had a mini ligno for close to 20 years.
Mine came with a conversion chart for some woods which I lost about 19 years ago. I just use what it says.
Mine looks a lot like the ligno Mini E/D

On dry roughed out bowls I test the middle of the tenon when it reads 10% I am confident I can turn them to finish.
The bowls will look round and movement won't be noticeable.

Is it as accurate as weighing? No.
Is it good enough? Yes!

It is a whole lot less work than weighing and keeping track of the weights.
Bill says his works in Arizona, Mine works in Maryland & Central Florida.
. Now if we could get a report from a dry and humid area...

Al

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Gerald, do you mind if i PM you with a few questions?

Mark

Anytime is ok

 

[John Torchick]

Mark and others, got to correct myself (the wife does all the time). Rope lighting does put off heat but not enough to do any good. A fellow rod builder made a horizontal epoxy dryer from an old Sauder bookcase. He used two 75W bulbs for heat. Sorry for the error..........this is my quota for the month. I'll try to do better next month.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark and others, got to correct myself (the wife does all the time). Rope lighting does put off heat but not enough to do any good. A fellow rod builder made a horizontal epoxy dryer from an old Sauder bookcase. He used two 75W bulbs for heat. Sorry for the error..........this is my quota for the month. I'll try to do better next month.

John, that's my quota for just today. And I'm over.

You're doing just fine

 

[Bill Boehme]

In relation to MM , they make some that are pinless which are usually prefered by flat ww now. Pins make holes in the wood. Any mm will only measure about 1/2 inch into the wood and if pinned even less. We turn from logs or thick blanks : therefore how could a meter tell you anything.

I started last year weighing my first turned bowls and follow this procedure:
1. after turning weigh and put in bag with chips with top folded , note weight on chart
2. weigh daily at first (1 week or so) and allow moisture to escape bag. Weight 3 times a week after 10-14 days.
3. continue til losing only 15 GM or less/day for a 1200 GM or so bowl, and remove chips (usually after 10 days)
4. continue in bag till only lose 7 GM /day. then out of bag.
5. Once weight stays the same for 2 or more days it is ready to return.

I have learned that a bowl done this way can gain weight can gain weight. I am planing on creating a graph to show moisture under the curve. After doing the percent calc on 2 bowls, they both ended at equilibrium at 74%. Now for me that is too much coincidence to not be a standard. I will post more on this when I get all the calc done.

I came to the same conclusion about moisture meters a couple years ago. I have a moisture meter meter somewhere buried in a pile of other useless junk. Hopefully the batteries have died and corroded the innards so that I can justify tossing it.

You can buy a very accurate digital kitchen scale that reads in grams or pounds and ounces for around $25 to $35 and they are very accurate and repeatable. I stick a slip of paper in each roughout to keep a record of its weight or when drying solid maple blanks, I just write directly on the wood.

To get an idea about the rate of moisture loss, I have plotted the data for about two dozen blanks using an Excel template that I created. As I expected, it looks like a decaying exponential (nothing to do with decaying wood and an exponential is a type of mathematical function -- not something that bores holes in wood). Based on the data that I have collected, I can make a pretty good estimate of the drying time based on what I record for the first three or four weeks.

Here is an example of data plotted in Excel. I also have a third-order polynomial plotted on the chart to show the predictability of the data wen the environmental conditions are constant.



Your final turning criteria, however, are much more aggressive than what I do. The main difference is that I need to have wood that is stable as possible when doing inlay work and other things that may take several weeks from start to finish..

Some wood dries to a stable final weight and the weight of other wood like quilted soft maple fluctuates up and down with the weather.

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Nice chart Bill. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Hu Lowery]

dehumidifiers

Never used them but I remembered the dehumidifiers for gun safes. They are about the same size as the freezer. Hook them up to some kind of control or timer if needed. Looks like they have them to fit pretty much any budget. Might be worth considering.

Hu

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...qmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_7i58gjcvmw_e

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I came to the same conclusion about moisture meters a couple years ago. I have a moisture meter meter somewhere buried in a pile of other useless junk. Hopefully the batteries have died and corroded the innards so that I can justify tossing it.

You can buy a very accurate digital kitchen scale that reads in grams or pounds and ounces for around $25 to $35 and they are very accurate and repeatable. I stick a slip of paper in each roughout to keep a record of its weight or when drying solid maple blanks, I just write directly on the wood.

To get an idea about the rate of moisture loss, I have plotted the data for about two dozen blanks using an Excel template that I created. As I expected, it looks like a decaying exponential (nothing to do with decaying wood and an exponential is a type of mathematical function -- not something that bores holes in wood). Based on the data that I have collected, I can make a pretty good estimate of the drying time based on what I record for the first three or four weeks.

Here is an example of data plotted in Excel. I also have a third-order polynomial plotted on the chart to show the predictability of the data wen the environmental conditions are constant.

View attachment 8567

Your final turning criteria, however, are much more aggressive than what I do. The main difference is that I need to have wood that is stable as possible when doing inlay work and other things that may take several weeks from start to finish..

Some wood dries to a stable final weight and the weight of other wood like quilted soft maple fluctuates up and down with the weather.

Bill, That is an interesting chart. I am looking at the conclusion that species as well as size of the turning and first turn wall thickness all affect dry time. I think I will see that hard woods such as pecan will take longer to dry than say magnolia. It will be a while before I get all this data from the last 18 months compiled and displayed. Thanks for the chart, I had been thinking of doing something in that manner. It is interesting that the curve is so smooth.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, That is an interesting chart. I am looking at the conclusion that species as well as size of the turning and first turn wall thickness all affect dry time. I think I will see that hard woods such as pecan will take longer to dry than say magnolia. It will be a while before I get all this data from the last 18 months compiled and displayed. Thanks for the chart, I had been thinking of doing something in that manner. It is interesting that the curve is so smooth.

I should add that not all wood is as well behaved as this elm bowl. Some pieces of wood seems to have wild fluctuations in weight loss. Those individual pieces with an ill-behaved drying curve also never seem to settle down to a constant weight which says that for some reason they are more hygroscopic that the typical piece of wood. I'll see if I can find a representative example.

 

[odie]

I'd have to agree that seasoning a roughed bowl by weight is far more accurate in determining true stabilization of moisture content. As another said, a moisture meter is only relevant to the surface MC, and the interior could be different. However, Bill might want to consider keeping his, because the moisture meter does give one a good reference point as to what to expect during the drying process.

My Mini Ligno E is about 30 years old and is still working fine.....it's a good tool to have, but some might not want the expense for as little a return as it provides. I also have a cheaper General moisture meter that seems to work fine, but my Mini Ligno E is my "go to" moisture meter. If using a scale, the moisture meter isn't a requirement.....but, it is nice to have.

I agree whole heartedly that a scale and periodical weights are the best physical measurement that does provide an accurate determination of moisture stabilization. When it stops losing weight, you've found stabilization.....simple and effective.

As to old refrigerators, and such.....these threads crop up occasionally, and I feel it's a waste of time. Natural moisture release is the only way to insure internal stresses within a roughed bowl are minimized. It's not about getting the moisture out, the real objective is to get the moisture out with the least amount of traumatic stress within the wood. The only real way to do that, is to do it naturally. It takes more time, but it's a tried and true method that works, and works well.

Since air drying does take longer, the only way to have a selection of projects that are ready to finish, is to accumulate at least a couple dozen roughed bowls that are in progress......when you do that, you won't be bothered by thinking up ideas on how to speed up the process!

ko

 

[John Torchick]

odie has a good point about interior and exterior MC. Never thought of that. Find a turner in Phoenix and send the wood there with return postage. As for the scale, what do you do with the huge bowls like some of our members turn? Looking at over twelve inches in diameter? Curious.