Grinder angle setup / Raptor setup tools

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Mark Hepburn, Oct 19, 2016.

  1. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    I have the Wolverine / Varigrind jig set up like many here. I've been using it for a while but to be honest, I haven't been disciplined in my approach and repeat-ability has been an issue.

    So I'm considering these Raptor set up tools on CSUSA's site. But I have a couple of questions if anyone can help.

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    I read on SC forum that the distance from the arbor center of the grinder to the base of the jig must be 6 1/2" or these won't work. If this is so, then I'm forever tied to that particular dimension and I don't know if that will have any unintended consequences.

    Does anyone have any experience with using these on a regular basis and are there any things I should consider? Or are there any alternatives that work consistently and easily?

    Thanks!
     
  2. john lucas

    john lucas

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  3. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I can't see where that dimension matters. If you have your Wolverine set up correctly according to the Oneway instructions then all that the Raptor is doing is setting the Wolverine V pocket distance from the wheel surface to give you a particular nose angle. When the pocket is set to the right distance according to the Raptor then nothing else matters unless you are hitting the wheel guard
     
  4. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    John,as always, it was a very helpful video. Thank you.

    I thought I had watched all of yours but hadn't seen this one. I'm going to spend some time in the shop tomorrow doing the jigs and the insert block. Great ideas.

    Only one problem: I don't have an eye to put on my Ellsworth/varigrind jig. :D
     
  5. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    I'm going to roll my own tomorrow.

    Ive been considering what you said and it seems logical to me. Otherwise, now that I'm reading your post, there would be a ridiculously high retrace on the product.
     
  6. Toss the Raptor jigs far into the darkness of the night and go with 1' PVC pipe to set the V-arm extension distance. See attached photos. Cut PVC pipe to length (trial and error) that sets the V-arm to the proper distance for required grind. Works great with CBN (or similar) grinding wheels because they never change diameter. With a constant diameter grinding wheel and extension of V-arm set by PVC pipe, two of three variables required to reproduce your favorite grind are set. The only remaining variable is the angle of the leg on the Oneway (or equal) vari-grind jig. I have my vari-grind leg more/less permanently set. So, when I want to change grind, all I have to do is pull out the proper PVC pipe, set the V-arm and grind away. - John

    PS - Not the originator of this idea. Picked it up on some woodturning forum/website. - J
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  7. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    John,

    With the tube cut to length, I can do as John Lucas shows in his video and fix the varigrind and the third variable is solved. Thank you!
     
  8. Zach LaPerriere

    Zach LaPerriere

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    That's a great idea, John. I'd never thought of it, and never seen it until a couple days ago in the "show us your shop" thead.

    I was planning to do the same for several angles, with the addition of ripping just enough out of the pipe or conduit to slip over the top.

    The other trick I use for identical lengths on both sides of the grinder is an old chainsaw file (could be a dowel or whatever else) cut to length, then place the file in the between the v arm and the wheel. I use that for grinding with dueling CBN wheels, 350 or 600 on one side and 1000 on the other.
     
  9. odie

    odie

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    There is another method of matching a current existing gouge grind to the wheel that works perfectly every time. This works for both the vari-grind jig/v-arm, and the standard (traditional) grind, using only the V-arm. Those using cbn wheels, in conjunction with a vari-grind (or Ellsworth jig) can rely on settings never changing (as long as the extension in the vari-grind jig remains a constant).......however, those who are using matrix wheels and standard grind, need a method of matching an existing grind to the wheel, because the length of the tool and the diameter of the wheel will change.

    By looking at how the bevel matches the wheel surface from the side, it's a snap to adjust the v-arm perfectly, so the bevel matches the wheel surface. (If you want a longer, or shorter bevel, this can easily be done by adjusting the length of the v-arm incrementally.)

    For seeing how the existing bevel matches the wheel more clearly, a piece of white paper can be attached to a short stick that pivots out of the way, on a magnet.

    Mark......It appears as though you've already decided on the method you want to use, and by posting this, I'm only giving an alternative method in this thread.....for general thought on the subject. Hope you don't mind.

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    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
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  10. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Odie, you forgot one thing. Even though the CBN wheel diameter doesn't change, the tool is getting shorter each time it is sharpened.
     
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  11. john lucas

    john lucas

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    What I don't like about the PVC is if you need to vary the V arm distance for different tools. It obviously works well but my system works because you can make a jig for any grind. For example I use different angles on my spindle gouges but sharpen them with the wolverine jig. I have different wooden jigs to set the V arm for them and it's much quicker than the PVC.
    I now have a CBN wheel and have my V arm locked at the Bowl gouge distance. For the Spindle gouges I simply drop a short V block into the V arm. I put my Wolverine jig in front of that. That moves the tool forward and sharpens it at a steeper angle. I have one for my spindle gouge and one for another gouge that I sharpen inbetween my standard bowl gouge grind and spindle gouge grind.
    I should give credit to Mike Darlow in his book he shows a jig that uses 3 points of reference to place the V arm. It is a very good jig but kind of complicated to build. After I built one I came up with the wooden jigs. Then many years later the Raptors came out. don't know where they got the idea, possibly from Mike Darlow's books as well.
     
  12. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    John,

    I have the PVC cut and in use but only for my Ellsworth grind gouges. Since I added the 2nd grinder they're now set up so that one is for platform use and the other has two wolverine arms. That grinder has a 180 and a 600 wheel on it, and what I had hoped for is to be able to transfer from one wheel to the other and just lightly finish the gouges with the 600 wheel.

    In practice, it isn't exact enough (this is an implementation / precision issue). Using the jigs in your video I can get the correct settings with more ease. I was going to make them last night but time got away from me. Gonna do them tonight. So if I may, another question or two?

    What is the fixed angle at which you set your varigrind? Do you only use that one or do you have multiples? Do you do any Ellsworth grinds with it or do you use his jig (which is what I use)?

    By the way, it sounds like you took Mike Darlow's idea and improved on it. That's a new idea so I'm going to give you the credit :)
     
  13. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Hey Odie, of course I don't. I appreciate another viewpoint that helps me to learn something new. Frankly, the whole issue of sharpening gouges, and the geometry around it, escapes me a bit. Intuitively I understand that the angles will change as a tool is rotated around a different axis relative to the face of the wheel, but processing these relationships so that they translate to useful data for me is a struggle.

    So I'm happy to be a trained monkey, using tools that make it short work and add repeatability.
     
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  14. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Love that; dueling CBN wheels. :)
     
  15. odie

    odie

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    Read again, Bill......that's what I said! :D

    ko
     
  16. john lucas

    john lucas

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    If you sharpen using the Wolverine jig it doesn't matter if the tool gets shorter as long as you extend it the same amount from the jig each time. Mark I tried using a straight stick between the V arm and the wheel. It is just to easy to not get it the exact same distance. I found the 3 point reference to be more exact. It also works well great for setting the Oneway grinding table. Just cut a flat on the bottom instead of the point that goes into the V arm. You set the flat on the grinder tool rest and then adjust it until the 2 points touch the grinding wheel. That's really handy for things like hand sharpening the Stewart Batty grind or hand sharpening skews.
    Mark I never change my Wolverine jig. I used to. I went through a spell where I was trying to learn what the different angles do to the grind. I finally decided it was a waste of time. I drilled my jig so I can place a 1/8" drill in the holes and get it back to the exact setting. Sometimes students who are using my jig change things, which is fine because now I can get it back to my position. I could not find the photo of my jig. I have the arm set so the top of the bar is exactly centered on the 3rd notch from the bottom.
     
  17. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Oops. I guess I was thinking that you weren't using a jig in the V arm of the Wolverine.
     
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  18. Mark Hepburn

    Mark Hepburn

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    Thanks John. I'm going to use the notch setting as you indicate as my reference. And, got a lot of templates to cut tonight. Looking forward to it too.

    Thanks everyone for your help. This forum has given me more education (and enjoyment) than I could possibly have imagined over the past couple of years.
     
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  19. Jamie Straw

    Jamie Straw

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    Once again, I'm not keeping up, so am answering late, but my suggestion is to skip the Raptor set-up gizmos. I had a set, they did not work for my grinder for the very reason that it was too high above the base (necessitated by the shields interfering with the Wolverine base unless it was raised higher). When I went to sell them, I looked at reviews, and most seasoned WWers did not feel they were needed or worth the cost. (However, I did make outlines on poster-board before I shipped them.:D) I am super-happy with my SB Tools set-up gauges. I think they run about $35 apiece online. If Stuart is coming to your area, he might have them for less.
     
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  20. odie

    odie

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    Actually, I seldom use the vari-grind jig anymore, and my wording is more in tune with how I do things......but, I did use the vari-grind jig extensively for over 20 years. Sorry, I know that, even though I try to be as specific and clearly word my posts as I can, I can be a little confusing at times.......I'm working on that! :oops:

    I guess you probably know the story about why I have almost completely abandoned the vari-grind jig........ I sort of consider myself the "black sheep" of the AAW forums, since I do so many things that are directly contradictory to the rest of the herd! For me, it's all about results, and not conforming to a specific method one uses to achieve them........;)
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    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
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