Hannes Vector Jig?

[Tom Albrecht]

Anybody on here using the Vector jig with a standard Ellsworth 60d grind?

If so, how are you setting it up? Two inch projection, or 2 1/2"?

I watched the two Hannestool videos, but didn't learn much from those. He says he sets up for a 40d bevel and that's a different can of worms for an Ellsworth gouge.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Hi Tom,

2 1/2" projection is right. I have a distance of 8 1/4" from the middle outward hole in the Vector to the wheel. I sharpen both the Michaelsen grind with Hannes's jig and Ellsworth grind with the Ellsworth jig at the same distance.

The angle difference between the Ellsworth Jig and Hannes's jig is considerable and the geometry is a bit different. I should post a side-by-side picture...let me see if I can find one or take one later.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Hi Tom,

2 1/2" projection is right. I have a distance of 8 1/4" from the middle outward hole in the Vector to the wheel. I sharpen both the Michaelsen grind with Hannes's jig and Ellsworth grind with the Ellsworth jig at the same distance.

The angle difference between the Ellsworth Jig and Hannes's jig is considerable and the geometry is a bit different. I should post a side-by-side picture...let me see if I can find one or take one later.

A picture, or two, would be worth a thousand, or two thousand words, Zach.
Thanks,
T

 

[Bill Boehme]

Anybody on here using the Vector jig with a standard Ellsworth 60d grind?

If so, how are you setting it up? Two inch projection, or 2 1/2"?

I watched the two Hannestool videos, but didn't learn much from those. He says he sets up for a 40d bevel and that's a different can of worms for an Ellsworth gouge.

The jig that attaches to the tool is exactly identical to the Ellsworth jig ... same arm angle of 45° ... same arm length ... same distance from front of jig to internal intersection point with tool centerline ... everything except for the external color and shape of the body and different screw to fasten the tool in place. This means that if you use the two inch projection that Ellsworth says to use for his jig and then set the slide of the Wolverine arm or one of the center holes on the the Hannes Vector arm to get a 60° nose angle, you will get exactly the same grind as you would if using the Ellsworth jig. The good thing about the Hannes jig is that it will accommodate larger diameter gouges. I understand that the wheel shroud on some bench grinders will interfere with either the Wolverine or the Vector jig, but that can be worked around by using a riser block to get the tool up higher. If you are using a CBN wheel then you probably have the shroud removed anyway.

If you are wanting to put a grind like Johannes uses then the projection is sort of your preference, but the last time that I talked to Johannes, I think that he said that he was using 2⅝" projection. Although in his videos he only uses the side holes, when talking to him at SWAT, he did use the center hole to very lightly blend the curve around the nose so that it wouldn't be too pointed. The nose angle is also your choice. I think that I first started with about 60°, but now have it more pointed. I can't really tell exactly what it is since it is hard to measure an angle when one side is less than ⅛" long. There's nothing magic about any of the angles ... it's more about how the tool is used and feeling when the tool is gliding along the narrow bevel. About five years ago before he came up with the Vector fixture, he did the grinding freehand. The results of the two methods are similar, but as you would guess they aren't exactly the same. The best thing about the Vector fixture or any other jig for that matter, is repeatability which translates to less fiddling around at the grinder to get the desired shape.

Here is a picture that shows the Vector jig, the Ellsworth jig, and the Varigrind jig all set to give the same Ellsworth grind when the tool projection is set to 2" and a nose angle of 60°.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Bill—We have a genuine mystery on our hands. I remember you mentioning your jigs being the same, and mine certainly are not. I have the newer Ellsworth jig, but your Vector looks identical to mine. It looks like my Ellsworth jig has a different angle. I'm taking a class with Mr. Ellsworth next week, I'll ask him.

I should add that I ground a little off the front edge of the point of my Ellsworth jig so it doesn't rub in the Vector fixture, but I didn't shorten it.

I sharpen my standard Michaelsen grind at around 50°, which came straight off the tools Hannes sent me.

My apologies for the poor lighting...my shop has good tasks lighting, but that's about it. I tried a couple of approaches to show the angle difference. I have yet to sharpen a tool with two jigs at the same time... ; )

 

[Bill Boehme]

That is interesting. Since you will be taking a class from David Ellsworth, that will be a great opportunities to solve the mystery.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

That is interesting. Since you will be taking a class from David Ellsworth, that will be a great opportunities to solve the mystery.

Bill—We have a genuine mystery on our hands. I remember you mentioning your jigs being the same, and mine certainly are not. I have the newer Ellsworth jig, but your Vector looks identical to mine. It looks like my Ellsworth jig has a different angle. I'm taking a class with Mr. Ellsworth next week, I'll ask him.

I should add that I ground a little off the front edge of the point of my Ellsworth jig so it doesn't rub in the Vector fixture, but I didn't shorten it.

I sharpen my standard Michaelsen grind at around 50°, which came straight off the tools Hannes sent me.

My apologies for the poor lighting...my shop has good tasks lighting, but that's about it. I tried a couple of approaches to show the angle difference. I have yet to sharpen a tool with two jigs at the same time... ; )

View attachment 21350 View attachment 21351

Hey Zach-- Sorry I'll miss you. I'm taking Ellsworth's class this weekend.
I don't think I'd be comfortable bringing my Vector platform into his shop. I assume he follows a pretty set curriculum for his weekends.

 

[hockenbery]

Hey Zach-- Sorry I'll miss you. I'm taking Ellsworth's class this weekend.
I don't think I'd be comfortable bringing my Vector platform into his shop. I assume he follows a pretty set curriculum for his weekends.

Hope you have a great time.
Fantastic instructor. I suspect David would helpmyounset it up.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hey Zach-- Sorry I'll miss you. I'm taking Ellsworth's class this weekend.
I don't think I'd be comfortable bringing my Vector platform into his shop. I assume he follows a pretty set curriculum for his weekends.

The question really doesn't involve the Vector platform, it's about the difference between the old and new Ellsworth jigs.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Yep, Mine is the same as Zach's

 

[robo hippy]

I have tried to make sense out of the Vector jig and what it is supposed to do. Bevel angles, as far as I use them, are about 45 for pretty much all of the outside, and for the inside walls, then 60 or 70 for the transition and bottom of bowls. As near as I can tell, the vector jig is for removing the heel of the bevel all the way around the swept back profile gouge, so there is only about 1/8 to 1/16 inch of rubbing bevel area left. All of my platform sharpened gouges look like that anyway. Just don't understand the jig or the necessity of it. But, I don't use the swept back gouges either...

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hope you have a great time.
Fantastic instructor. I suspect David would helpmyounset it up.

Al

I couldn't have saiditbettermyself.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Hi Tom,

2 1/2" projection is right. I have a distance of 8 1/4" from the middle outward hole in the Vector to the wheel. I sharpen both the Michaelsen grind with Hannes's jig and Ellsworth grind with the Ellsworth jig at the same distance.

The angle difference between the Ellsworth Jig and Hannes's jig is considerable and the geometry is a bit different. I should post a side-by-side picture...let me see if I can find one or take one later.

Zach, I just tried your setup. The first photo below is the 7" Ellsworth distance. The second is your 8 1/4" distance.
Both photos have the gouge set with a 2" projection.
I don't see how 8 1/4" can possibly work, even with Hannes 2 1/2" projection.
Or am I missing something?

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Zach, I just tried your setup. The first photo below is the 7" Ellsworth distance. The second is your 8 1/4" distance.
Both photos have the gouge set with a 2" projection.
I don't see how 8 1/4" can possibly work, even with Hannes 2 1/2" projection.
Or am I missing something?

View attachment 21358 View attachment 21359

Tom, I used (past tense) a 2" projection for the Ellsworth jig when I followed the 7" out and—what was it—roughly an inch up? From the standard Ellsworth instructions.

When I'm using the Vector fixture with the Ellsworth jig (for an Ellsworth grind) my projection is 2 1/2" or so. Bill said 2 5/8".

Hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like the extra projection might just get your bevel on the wheel. That said, the projection could be a little more, depending on your wheel diameter and wolverine elevation below the center of your grinder. Or you may have to adjust the in/out of the Vector fixture in the Wolverine base.

Let me know if that works...or doesn't work.

EDIT: I confused Tom's photos...just trying to clear things up in a conversation. I'll edit again when I know we're on the same page. Thanks.

 

[Bill Blasic]

The main purpose of the Hannes' jig is to reproduce his grind. His grind that he does by hand makes his tools almost uncatchable. By using his jig you approximate that grind. Another benefit of the jig is that even if you only have a 1/2 inch of flute left you can still use the jig for a good grind. I would think that if you want to use the fixture for the other grind you would use the middle divot on the back line and then adjust the fixture in until the grind matches the wheel. That is what that middle divot is for, other grinds than Hannes'. I have been very happy with the Hannes jig and the grind it produces.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Zach, I just tried your setup. The first photo below is the 7" Ellsworth distance. The second is your 8 1/4" distance.
Both photos have the gouge set with a 2" projection.
I don't see how 8 1/4" can possibly work, even with Hannes 2 1/2" projection.
Or am I missing something?

View attachment 21358 View attachment 21359

The height of your grinding wheel above the Wolverine base and the exact placement of the Wolverine with respect to the front edge of the wheel most likely is not the same on your set up as it is on Zach's. I would just adjust the slide until the bevel sits flush against the wheel and then mark the arm with a Sharpie or make a stop block of some sort for quick future set up. Mark which center hole you used, but that part should be obvious if you put the jig into the wrong hole.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Yep, that was my take on it too, thanks.
I'm off to PA and Ellsworth's studio momentarily...

 

[Barry Crowder]

Yep, that was my take on it too, thanks.
I'm off to PA and Ellsworth's studio momentarily...

I can only imagine how much fun you'll be having.

I hope you have wonderful stories when you return!

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Just got back from PA to snow at Ohare-- winter is here, but it wasn't in Quakertown! Ellsworth's class was a fantastic experience of which I will write much more about later when I write an article for the journal.

In the meantime, though I did speak with Ellsworth about JoHannes Michelson, and many other professionals, I never felt it was appropriate to bring out the Hannes platform that I took with me. It just would not have been right to take one professional's class with 4 other class members, and bring out another professional's product to ask for advice.

Actually, at this point I'm thinking of selling my Hannes stuff.

More to come...

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

Tom. I, too, am curious about the 2 different Ellsworth jigs. With no mention of the Hannes jig, did you ask Ellsworth about the clearly different angles in his jigs?

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Tom. I, too, am curious about the 2 different Ellsworth jigs. With no mention of the Hannes jig, did you ask Ellsworth about the clearly different angles in his jigs?

No I didn't, because I was unaware that there was a difference in his jigs. The jigs (tool holders) that we are talking about here are the Ellsworth (his) and the Hannes.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Tom. I, too, am curious about the 2 different Ellsworth jigs. With no mention of the Hannes jig, did you ask Ellsworth about the clearly different angles in his jigs?

Hi Grant,

I'll ask this weekend. Or better yet...you could ask in person. Got an email yesterday from David that there's space in the Dec. 9-11 workshop due to a family emergency.

If I don't see you this weekend I'll follow up on the forum here.

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

Tom: I apologize if I offended you. Some of the posts in this thread show pics indicating that there are 2 versions of the Ellsworth jig. Zach showed a pic of the two versions in one of his posts. Then Bill posted, "The question really doesn't involve the Vector platform, it's about the difference between the old and new Ellsworth jigs". That's what I was following up on.

Zach: I would love to join you, but I'm in Ottawa Canada - just over 7 hours away from David's studio.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Tom: I apologize if I offended you. Some of the posts in this thread show pics indicating that there are 2 versions of the Ellsworth jig. Zach showed a pic of the two versions in one of his posts. Then Bill posted, "The question really doesn't involve the Vector platform, it's about the difference between the old and new Ellsworth jigs". That's what I was following up on.

Zach: I would love to join you, but I'm in Ottawa Canada - just over 7 hours away from David's studio.

Hey Grant, you didn't offend me. I just never saw pics showing two different Ellsworth holders. Where are they?

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

They are in this thread, Tom. Zach and Bill posted pics of Ellsworth jigs. One of the jigs is round, the other square. The square one seems to have the same arm angle as the Hannes jig. The round Ellsworth has a very different arm angle.

 

[hockenbery]

The two Ellsworth jigs are identical in the way they position the tool against the wheel.
The rectilinear one is the old original. The round tube is the new.
It is mostly a manufacturing change. The old one registers the gouge against the flat surface of the square hole. The round one has a metal pin to register the top of the gouge square.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

No I didn't, because I was unaware that there was a difference in his jigs. The jigs (tool holders) that we are talking about here are the Ellsworth (his) and the Hannes.

A question came up about a difference between earlier and newer Ellsworth jigs. In My Post #4 of this thread, I showed a picture that included my Ellsworth jig next to the Hannes Jig and the Varigrind Jig. It was then that Zach observed in Post #5 that there was a significant difference between my twelve year old Ellsworth Jig and his newer Ellsworth jig. This led to discussion about a change in the design of the Ellsworth jig in subsequent posts and what the effect was on the grind.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Yes, Al is absolutely right, and I didn't look carefully enough for the two Ellsworth jigs in the thread.

Now, to complicate things even more we have the fact that although Ellsworth uses a notched piece of wood to hold his jig while he sharpens (see the attached photo) he recommends the Geiger: http://www.geigerssolutions.com/Pro-Sharp-SPECTRUM.html

I wish I had seen that before I got the Hannes.

BTW Al, your name came up several times this weekend.

 

[Bill Boehme]

The two Ellsworth jigs are identical in the way they position the tool against the wheel.
The rectilinear one is the old original. The round tube is the new.
It is mostly a manufacturing change. The old one registers the gouge against the flat surface of the square hole. The round one has a metal pin to register the top of the gouge square.

Al

I would need to see a new one to confirm that, but from the pictures it doesn't appear that the critical dimensions are the same.

 

[hockenbery]

BTW Al, your name came up several times this weekend.

View attachment 21452

That is a bit scary!

 

[hockenbery]

I would need to see a new once to confirm that, but from the pictures it doesn't appear that the critical dimensions are the same.

The photos may have distorted the angles or the owners may have adjusted the angle.

We had both the old and the new and used them interchangeably.
Haven't seen the new one lately.
It most likely wasn't abandoned on a field trip.
Sherry always liked using the old one more.

Al

 

[Tom Albrecht]

That is a bit scary!

Hey man, you want to know the other names that came up? You're one of the big dogs now!

Raffan, Mahoney, Nish, Key, Battys', Moulthroup, Hockenberry, and other names I can't remember now whose work is in his house.

And then one or two negatively spoken of that I will not mention.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Tom, did you enjoy looking at all the incredible art in his house?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Now that he is one of the big dogs we need to spell his name right. It's Hockenbery with just one "r". He couldn't afford the extra letter.

BTW, the Vector jig isn't meant to reproduce the Ellsworth grind. Johannes Michelsen's grind works very well for his hats and an Ellsworth grind just wouldn't work for some of the cuts that he needs to make in very tight quarters. It's good for more than hats, but you may never have any need for it. But, it can be one more tool in your arsenal if you see how it can be used. BTW, it was David Ellsworth's video that led me to my "aha moment" in learning to use a bowl gouge.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Tom, did you enjoy looking at all the incredible art in his house?

Absolutely! If you have been there, you know that the whole house, and everything in it, has a story behind it.

At this point I can't put to words what an incredible experience it was for me. I am 67 and an early AAW member. This was as close as it gets to being a lifelong dream for me. The Ellsworth's are an American treasure. I feel privileged and humbled to have been there.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Now that he is one of the big dogs we need to spell his name right. It's Hockenbery with just one "r". He couldn't afford the extra letter.

BTW, the Vector jig isn't meant to reproduce the Ellsworth grind. Johannes Michelsen's grind works very well for his hats and an Ellsworth grind just wouldn't work for some of the cuts that he needs to make in very tight quarters. It's good for more than hats, but you may never have any need for it. But, it can be one more tool in your arsenal if you see how it can be used. BTW, it was David Ellsworth's video that led me to my "aha moment" in learning to use a bowl gouge.

Thanks Bill. You want an "Ahha"? Go there before it's too late. Seriously, it was special. I won't elaborate now-- to prevent making a fool of myself.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Just to clear up any confusion from before on how I set up my Vector jig. Here's the cut-off chainsaw file that I set multiple wheels up at (nearly) identical distances. I just set the Vector at a distance where there is just a little resistance when I rotate the wheel.


-------

Excuse the mess! Here's how I sharpen the Ellsworth grind in the Vector. I extend the protrusion with the Ellsworth Jig to about 2 1/2" and using the center hole of the Vector jig in the same exact position as for the Vector fixture/Michaelsen grind, I get pretty much the same results as when using the Vee arm.



Of course everyone's wheel and Wolverine base are mounted a little different.
-------

Another thing I found interesting on the Vector jig came in this video from Alan Batty that was posted over in the parting tool thread. About halfway in Batty shows sharpening the 40/40 grind. He states that you just can't use a jig to properly sharpen the wings of a 40/40 grind, but the Vector gets pretty close, much closer than other jigs.

Batty only says that in passing, but the video is excellent and worth watching for all the other great concepts shared.

 

[hockenbery]

At this point I can't put to words what an incredible experience it was for me. I am 67 and an early AAW member. This was as close as it gets to being a lifelong dream for me. The Ellsworth's are an American treasure. I feel privileged and humbled to have been there.

I feel the same way. Refined skills, more focused philosophy, inspiration, and new directions for creativity. A national treasure indeed. I was so lucky to take a week long class with David 21 years ago. Still don't have the words.

David has had profound effect on the way I turn and approach woodturning and I only understand a small fraction of what David tries to tell me.
Many well known turners credit the Ellsworth influence :
Trent Bosch, Lyle Jamieson, Don Geiger, Rudy Lopez to name a few.

After a class of that caliber I could practice being a better turner instead of practicing to be a turner.

 

[john lucas]

I wish that was an option for me. I've always admired David but taking a class with him is not going to happen. Heck I haven't even seen him demo. Would love to. I did meet him once. When I demo'ed at my very first AAW symposium the first person in the room was David. Fortunately I was doing a photography demo. I was having trouble changing the monitors over from the last instructor and David stepped in to help. Knew right then I would like him and took away a lot of the tension of doing a demo in front of him.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thank you for building up the suspense for David's class. I couldn't come at a better time with my flight out tomorrow morning.

For what it's worth, I think there may be an opening due to a last minute emergency cancellation for this weekend's class with David, starts Friday. I have a car rented and could likely give a ride from either the Newark airport where I fly in Wednesday evening late or possibly the Philadelphia airport, as I have the day in the city. The Wharton Escherick museum even volunteered a private tour for Thursday morning, then I'll go to the Center for Art in Wood.