• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Hannes Vector Jig?

Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,173
Likes
611
Location
Evanston, IL USA
I wish that was an option for me. I've always admired David but taking a class with him is not going to happen. Heck I haven't even seen him demo. Would love to. I did meet him once. When I demo'ed at my very first AAW symposium the first person in the room was David. Fortunately I was doing a photography demo. I was having trouble changing the monitors over from the last instructor and David stepped in to help. Knew right then I would like him and took away a lot of the tension of doing a demo in front of him.

That's funny because he and I were talking about the symposium demos and he said that he likes to go to them to see what guys are doing. I immediately thought of how nervous I'd be if I was doing a demo with him in the room.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Messages
253
Likes
83
Location
Gassaway, WV
Website
www.steercreekwood.com
I have the Hannes jig and after a few months of hard use it has gotten hard to get the tool lined up in the green aluminum holder. I either comes loose or it gets registered incorrectly, like tool is rolled a few degrees. That makes for sloppy sharpening. I have gone back to using the varigrind holder and two inch protrusion, it took a little fiddling around with the angle and the wolverine to keep the varigrind from hitting the grinding wheel. I have ended up with about 45 degrees on the nose and it cuts pretty good. I can't really tell much difference.
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,173
Likes
611
Location
Evanston, IL USA
I am returning my Hannes Vector. It wasn't easy. He gave me a lot of crap and charged a 15% restocking fee, but when all is said and done, this is not the jig for me.
 

Mark Hepburn

Artist & Chef
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
1,621
Likes
577
Location
Houma, Louisiana
Thank you for building up the suspense for David's class. I couldn't come at a better time with my flight out tomorrow morning.

For what it's worth, I think there may be an opening due to a last minute emergency cancellation for this weekend's class with David, starts Friday. I have a car rented and could likely give a ride from either the Newark airport where I fly in Wednesday evening late or possibly the Philadelphia airport, as I have the day in the city. The Wharton Escherick museum even volunteered a private tour for Thursday morning, then I'll go to the Center for Art in Wood.

You're in for a great time, Zach. David is a really interesting guy, great host and teacher. And the Center for Art in Wood is small but stuffed with eye-opening stuff.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,886
Likes
5,169
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
I am returning my Hannes Vector. It wasn't easy. He gave me a lot of crap and charged a 15% restocking fee, but when all is said and done, this is not the jig for me.

I guess that it's hard to know for certain if you haven't seen it in person. I think it was the second or third year after I first met Johannes that he came out with the Vector fixture. I think that it is one of those specialty tools where you've seen what it does and how it is used and have decided that it is something that will fill a niche in your arsenal (other than taking up space). I don't know what his return policy is, but I'm sort of hesitant about buying tools because I hate returning things that aren't defective. I have a skewchigouge that fits that category. I also have a whole collection of dust collection scoops and arms that are collecting dust ... but not from being used. I've concluded that the best dust scoop is a DC hose duct taped to my tool rest a few inches from what I am turning or sanding ... mostly sanding. I didn't return any of them because my expectations as a newbie at the time weren't realistic and all of these gizmos were cheap ..... and didn't cost much either.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
One of the great things about symposiums is you can see and sometimes use the tools in action.
You can also talk to demonstrators about the tools they are using.

AAW is by far the best trade show.
SWAT is way ahead of third place - big but as an example of the difference'with AAW craft supplies will have single large booth at SWAT and an 8-10 booth space at AAW. Most regional trade shows are 8-15 vendors.
The Florida symposium is small but high quality. Usually Sanding Glove, Thompson, Geiger, Jamieson, Jordan, woodcraft and then depending on the year a craft supplies, Bosch, Michelson etc.. .....
Rocky Mountain has a pretty good trade show...
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,173
Likes
611
Location
Evanston, IL USA
Bill I know what you mean about stuff that collects dust. But, I always figure that it doesn't hurt to ask to return something. It was just that JoHannes went back and forth with me in emails that I had to "justify my reasons" for the return. I am so used to buying stuff on Amazon where they don't give me any crap and even pay for the return postage. Heck, last week I got some "Heavy Duty 3 mil Contractor Bags" for my dust collector. They seemed kinda flimsy right out of the box-- sure enough, a mic'd one and it was 2 mil. I not only got a full refund, but they told me to keep them-- though this was clearly a case of "not as advertised".

And I know that AH is right about the trade shows. I plan to attend the next symposium, my first since Akron OH many years ago.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,886
Likes
5,169
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Johannes isn't quite as big as Amazon despite being a really big strong guy. It isn't easy for the one man operation to absorb extra costs. I would estimate that he sells a couple dozen at a major symposium like AAW or SWAT and after expenses there's not much profit. Like a lot of specialty tools most of his sales are probably at symposia or classes. Same thing is true for hollowing rigs, video systems for hollowing, and coring tools.
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,173
Likes
611
Location
Evanston, IL USA
Okay, now for a slight change of direction within this topic...

Is there anybody using a 60d Ellsworth grind for dry, or second turned blanks?

Is there anybody using a Hannes setup for dry, or seasoned blanks?
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,886
Likes
5,169
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
For final turning on pieces that were rough turned and then dried, I actually prefer a grind that is closer to the 40/40 grind although I will use any gouge that is handy. The Ellsworth gouge is great for roughing green wood and the Hannes gouge is great for thin green wood. Most of the time I don't get too concerned about who's grind is on a gouge as long as it is sharp.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Yes
Yes
When I re-turn a dried bow I jamb chuck the bowl and use the Ellsworth
To true the rim, rough shape the tenon, finish turn the outside, shear scrape, and complete the tenon with a spindle gouge. Mostly the push cut and shear scrape do the outside well. If not I will use a pull cut. Spindle gouge to turn any beads on the outside or rim details.

Put it in the chuck

Ellsworth to finish turn and shear scrape the top of the rim

Then turn out the inside a few inches deep.
If the first inch has any noticeable tearout I use a 3/8 Michelson grind to finish turn this section

The remainder of the interior is turned with the Ellsworth
push cut on the right side of the tool to true the surface and a shear cut on the left side to finish the surface. These are don in 1-2 inch increments from rim to bottom center.
On rare occasions I may have to use a round nose scraper on the bottom but usually the shear cut does the finish cut quite well.

Jamb Chuck on wood with a pad and finish turn the bottom with Ellsworth and spindle gouge.
Once in a while I may use the 3/8 Michelson if it will do something the Ellsworth or spindle gouge can't
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,173
Likes
611
Location
Evanston, IL USA
Yes
Yes
When I re-turn a dried bow I jamb chuck the bowl and use the Ellsworth
To true the rim, rough shape the tenon, finish turn the outside, shear scrape, and complete the tenon with a spindle gouge. Mostly the push cut and shear scrape do the outside well. If not I will use a pull cut. Spindle gouge to turn any beads on the outside or rim details.

Put it in the chuck

Ellsworth to finish turn and shear scrape the top of the rim

Then turn out the inside a few inches deep.
If the first inch has any noticeable tearout I use a 3/8 Michelson grind to finish turn this section

The remainder of the interior is turned with the Ellsworth
push cut on the right side of the tool to true the surface and a shear cut on the left side to finish the surface. These are don in 1-2 inch increments from rim to bottom center.
On rare occasions I may have to use a round nose scraper on the bottom but usually the shear cut does the finish cut quite well.

Jamb Chuck on wood with a pad and finish turn the bottom with Ellsworth and spindle gouge.
Once in a while I may use the 3/8 Michelson if it will do something the Ellsworth or spindle gouge can't


Thanks AH.
Can I assume that when you are re-turning a bowl, you are re-turning a thick and slightly distorted bowl? As in originally rough turned?
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Thanks AH.
Can I assume that when you are re-turning a bowl, you are re-turning a thick and slightly distorted bowl? As in originally rough turned?
Yes the dried bowls are Warped and usually have a wall thickness about 10% of diameter with the bottom slightly thinner to include the tenon in the wall thickness. Some are lot distorted.

This is pretty much the way lots of turners finish their bowls.

I hope to get a video of the process some day....
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
5,436
Likes
2,792
Location
Eugene, OR
The only place I use 60 degree bevel gouges is for the transition and across the bottom of bowls. I suppose with practice, I could use a 60 degree bevel, but just like the way a 45/45 works better. I tried the 40/40, and just found it too pointy for my taste. I do all of my roughing with scrapers, and all of my shear scraping with scrapers as well. I am starting to like NRSs (negative rake scrapers). Seems like I can save at least 1 grit of abrasive per bowl...

robo hippy
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
The only place I use 60 degree bevel gouges is for the transition and across the bottom of bowls. I suppose with practice, I could use a 60 degree bevel, but just like the way a 45/45 works better.

I love the 45 degree bevel too!

The beauty of the Ellsworth grind is that the bevel angle varies.
Most Ellsworth grind users cut mostly with the 40-45 degree bevel just off the nose.

60 degrees is the bevel at tip of the nose used primarily for stability in beginning a cut
40-45 degrees is the bevel on the sweet spot off the nose where the slicing push cut is done with the flute rotated up about 45 degrees.
25-30 degrees is the bevel on the wing where the pull cut and peeling cuts are done.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,173
Likes
611
Location
Evanston, IL USA
Yes the dried bowls are Warped and usually have a wall thickness about 10% of diameter with the bottom slightly thinner to include the tenon in the wall thickness. Some are lot distorted.

This is pretty much the way lots of turners finish their bowls.

I hope to get a video of the process some day....

Thanks again. Coming out of my recent Ellsworth class where he does everything while the bowl/vessel is green, I am rethinking some of what I do/ did/
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,173
Likes
611
Location
Evanston, IL USA
I love the 45 degree bevel too!

The beauty of the Ellsworth grind is that the bevel angle varies.
Most Ellsworth grind users cut mostly with the 40-45 degree bevel just off the nose.

60 degrees is the bevel at tip of the nose used primarily for stability in beginning a cut
40-45 degrees is the bevel on the sweet spot off the nose where the slicing push cut is done with the flute rotated up about 45 degrees.
25-30 degrees is the bevel on the wing where the pull cut and peeling cuts are done.


Again AH, you are full of good advice. You just described the video we are all waiting for!
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,322
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
Good description Al. That was why I liked my long wing bowl gouge. It was a thin U so the wings got very sharp. That was what got me started doing pull cuts so I ground my wings really long so I could ride that long bevel and use that extremely sharp edge to turn my mirrors. Now I just use the Hunter Osprey for the same effect.
I did find years ago that I could often transition through the corner on bowls by changing the flute orientation which of course changed where you were cutting on the bevel of the U or V shaped gouge.
 
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
603
Likes
443
Location
Sitka, Alaska, United States
Website
www.zachlaperriere.com
I love the 45 degree bevel too!

The beauty of the Ellsworth grind is that the bevel angle varies.
Most Ellsworth grind users cut mostly with the 40-45 degree bevel just off the nose.

60 degrees is the bevel at tip of the nose used primarily for stability in beginning a cut
40-45 degrees is the bevel on the sweet spot off the nose where the slicing push cut is done with the flute rotated up about 45 degrees.
25-30 degrees is the bevel on the wing where the pull cut and peeling cuts are done.

Well said, Al. An interesting thing happened at my recent workshop with David. I get hung up on angle, so I brought a protractor. I asked David about various angles of the different tools he uses and on the nose and wings of his grind. David's response was something like, "I don't know...whatever works!"

We had fun putting a protractor on everything from the freehand hollowing bits to the end of the wing on the Ellsworth grind. I got the impression that David had never identified most of the angles, but he was interested to hear the numbers and how they relate to each other.

That's mastery learned from experience, and I suppose much newer turners like me are trying to speed the learning curve up by learn from mastery level experience.
-------
I heartily recommend David's courses. Much of what I thought I would learn I either already knew or didn't need to know, and most of what I learned I would have never anticipated that I would learn.

An additional value of my trip was visiting the Wharton Esherick Museum (mind blown), and the Center for Art in Wood (remnants of mind blown again blown into much smaller pieces). It was a treat to meet Albert at the Center, especially since I had read the recent article in Woodturning on his Dean of Woodturning status. The Center is a place I would recommend visiting over several days, as there is just way too much to comprehend in one visit.

The other area of tremendous learning was from David showing many of his pieces and a good number from his collection of other talented turners. There's a non-linear aspect of what we do art that greatly benefits time spent with others who are at the top of their game as both artists and turners.

This is starting to sound like a swipe file for a potential ad for the June Symposium!

My gratitude for the AAW, the Center for Art in Wood, and all the dedicated AAW members who continually give back to our wonderful community.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
I get hung up on angle, so I brought a protractor. I asked David about various angles of the different tools he uses and on the nose and wings of his grind. David's response was something like, "I don't know...whatever works!"
-------
I heartily recommend David's courses. Much of what I thought I would learn I either already knew or didn't need to know, and most of what I learned I would have never anticipated that I would

I used the Ellsworth grind for many years without consciously considering the bevel angles. I knew different parts worked for different cuts and that was enough.
Then someone asked me in a demo what the bevel angle was. I knew it changed and was not one number. I also knew from using the pull cut on spindles that the wing bevel was similar to my skew's bevel angle of 30 degrees. So I could tell them I did not have accurate numbers but is was close to....

It has been my experience that people tend to learn things that we are ready/prepared to learn.
We expand our own experience base and skill base by stretching from it more than leaping. That's what makes the interaction with other Woodturner's such a great way to learn.
We all like our alone time too.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
5,436
Likes
2,792
Location
Eugene, OR
I would guess that one reason I don't use the swept back gouges is that I hold my tools more level when turning rather than with the dropped handle, so wing angles don't matter to me. It is difficult at best to drop the handle when turning the inside of a bowl, unless you use the sliding headstock, or have a really short bed lathe. So, again, wings don't figure much into how I turn. Anything that can be done with gouge wings, can be done with scrapers. Well, scrapers don't have flutes, so I can't pull off as much on a shear scrape, but shear scraping is for clean up. Yes, I know, I am 'different'....

robo hippy
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Any tips on getting that Ellsworth 85d bowl bottom angle ground?
Tom,
If you do bowls much deeper than wide or closed rim roundish bowls you will need to use some type of bottom feeder gouge. Typically a traditional grind of 85 degrees.

However for open bowls there are two ways to ride the bevel rim to bottom center with the Ellsworth grind.
1. Grind off the heel. This shortens the bevel to a 1/3 or less of the normal length an makes riding the bevel around the inside curve without the heel hitting the cut surface. It also greatly decreases the bevel drag which makes for a cleaner cut and makes working further over the tool rest possible. The short bevel makes bevel contact on tighter curves possible without hitting the side wall with the tool.

2. The advanced flute up shear cut. This is a cut I learned from liam O'Neil and in David's class I found it worked better for me with the Ellsworth grind. If you learned this cut in David's class it is a great one for interior of bowls. This cut best learned with hands on instruction. A catastrophic catch is very likely without instruction!
The shear cut is a shallow finishing cut made by the leading edge of the wing with the flute straight up. The high shear angle of the wing produces about the cleanest cut you can make with gouge inside a bowl.
On a natural edge bowl the cut can be started in air and used to define the wall thickness.
On a cut rim bowl it is best to roll into this cut inside the bowl. So the first inch inside needs to be cut with a push cut. This orientation of the gouge has the effect of moving the bevel support to the verticle direction and you can actually ride the bevel on a slightly closed bowl all the way from rim to bottom center.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
15
Likes
6
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Early in this thread Bill and Zach posted pictures that suggested that the leg angles of the early and later Ellsworth sharpening jigs were different. As far as I have read this difference was never confirmed or explained.
Does any member that has both care to comment.
Thanks
Ron
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Early in this thread Bill and Zach posted pictures that suggested that the leg angles of the early and later Ellsworth sharpening jigs were different. As far as I have read this difference was never confirmed or explained.
Does any member that has both care to comment.
Thanks
Ron

First the old and new Ellsworth produce the same grind.

The leg angles of the old and new Ellsworth jigs are different.
This is because the pivot rod is inserted into the holder at different places and the pivot rod on the new one has a bend in it.

The angels produced on the grind are the same because the critical element is the length from the gouge tip to the pivot point which is the same for both jigs.

These are the two jigs in top of each other3BA0260D-E584-4217-A779-1AFB7D85AC80.jpeg

Here is the old jig with the pivot point and heel of the bevel marked on a squareF9A8F619-355D-4B31-AD41-F28B9785B750.jpeg

Here is the new jig using the marks from the old jig48CE8E7E-94FD-43B1-8361-16EAB2172350.jpeg

The orange arrows show the critical length is the same.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
15
Likes
6
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Mr Hockenbery thank you for posting the photos. Clearly the jigs are differently physically so the Q becomes do they produce the same grind and do the settings have to be altered to achieve this?
Unfortunately photos 2 and 3 do not answer the question. Going back one step when grinding a swept back grind on a gouge there are a number of variables. The nose angle is straight forward to set as your photos depict. Merely adjust the pivot point closer or away from the wheel to achieve the desired angle.

Unfortunately this is not the whole story. There is another angle involved and this is the angle between the flute and the grind on the sides of the gouge. This angle can be quite sharp or quite obtuse and it does effect how the gouge behaves.

This angle is very difficult to measure because of the curvature of the flute and in most grinds varies from the nose to the back of the wing. Understanding what affects this angle is not so straight forward and the angle is not constant along the swept back grind. This is what makes an Ellsworth gouge subtly different to say an Irish grind, O'Donnell grind or a Hannes grind.

Both the leg angle, and the projection of tool past the the point where the leg and the axis of the gouge meet affect this side angle.

If you don't believe me try an experiment for yourself. Fit a swept back gouge to a Oneway Wolverine jig ( A Oneway is good because you can adjust the leg angle) and adjust both the angle of the leg and the gouge projection towards the extremes to magnify the effect.
With out the grinder running bring the gouge to the grinder, set the nose angle to what your gouge is ground by adjusting the pivot point in or out, and then rotate the tool as if grinding. Look very closely at how the wings contact the wheel as you change the two settings towards their extremes, Using the extremes of the settings for this exercise makes the effect more visible. Both these settings affect the side wing grind angle and also the rate of change of the side angle from nose to back of wing.

Returning to the old and newer Ellsworth gouges I think your photos show that the leg angle off the axis of the gouge and the gouge projection past the axis point are different. How much this affects the side grind is what I am trying to establish.
Ron
 

Dennis J Gooding

Beta Tester
Beta Tester
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
824
Likes
732
Location
Grants Pass, Oregon
Mr Hockenbery thank you for posting the photos. Clearly the jigs are differently physically so the Q becomes do they produce the same grind and do the settings have to be altered to achieve this?
Unfortunately photos 2 and 3 do not answer the question. Going back one step when grinding a swept back grind on a gouge there are a number of variables. The nose angle is straight forward to set as your photos depict. Merely adjust the pivot point closer or away from the wheel to achieve the desired angle.

Unfortunately this is not the whole story. There is another angle involved and this is the angle between the flute and the grind on the sides of the gouge. This angle can be quite sharp or quite obtuse and it does effect how the gouge behaves.

This angle is very difficult to measure because of the curvature of the flute and in most grinds varies from the nose to the back of the wing. Understanding what affects this angle is not so straight forward and the angle is not constant along the swept back grind. This is what makes an Ellsworth gouge subtly different to say an Irish grind, O'Donnell grind or a Hannes grind.

Both the leg angle, and the projection of tool past the the point where the leg and the axis of the gouge meet affect this side angle.

If you don't believe me try an experiment for yourself. Fit a swept back gouge to a Oneway Wolverine jig ( A Oneway is good because you can adjust the leg angle) and adjust both the angle of the leg and the gouge projection towards the extremes to magnify the effect.
With out the grinder running bring the gouge to the grinder, set the nose angle to what your gouge is ground by adjusting the pivot point in or out, and then rotate the tool as if grinding. Look very closely at how the wings contact the wheel as you change the two settings towards their extremes, Using the extremes of the settings for this exercise makes the effect more visible. Both these settings affect the side wing grind angle and also the rate of change of the side angle from nose to back of wing.

Returning to the old and newer Ellsworth gouges I think your photos show that the leg angle off the axis of the gouge and the gouge projection past the axis point are different. How much this affects the side grind is what I am trying to establish.
Ron

Actually, there IS another parameter that Al probably forgot to mention that needs to be the same in the two jigs for identical performance. This is the angle between the axis of the gouge and a straight line between nose of the gouge and the pivot point (the orange lines in the last two figures). It is difficult to tell if they are the same in the two jigs shown in the pictures, because the perspective of the camera is different in the last two pictures. For any given nose angle, this parameter determines the characteristics of the edge out on the wings. In all of this I believe that there is a tacit assumption that the nose protrusion is set to the same value in both cases.
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
15
Likes
6
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Dennis
If you look carefully at the photo of the two jigs together you will see that if a gouge projects 2" out the front of the jigs the actual projection from where the leg meets the axis of the gouge is quite different.
Also it is not the angle between a line from the pivot point and the axis of the gouge that is critical but the angle between the gouge axis and the leg where it meets the gouge axis. I know this is hard to visualise but consider what happens with a Oneway jig when you change the leg angle. By the way the leg actually meets the gouge axis at the front of a Oneway jig but towards the rear on an Ellsworth or Hannes Jig. The EFFECTIVE gouge projection when a gouge sticks out 2" in front of either jig is actually quite different.

To get a consistent grind using these jigs everybody knows that the actual projection needs to be kept constant from sharpening to sharpening. However what projection you actually use is up to you but it does affect the outcome. Ellsworth recommends 2" but Hannes uses 2 5/8". I believe that to obtain an Ellsworth grind on a Oneway jig the projection needs to be significantly increased.
Ron
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
It is worth repeating here that both jigs produce the same grind.

In both jigs the prootrusionnwas set using the Geiger’s vertical solution.
I tried to set the nose bevel flush with the edge of the square then marked where the hell hit the square and where the pocket point hit the square. I then switched jigs and it all lined up the same.
The camera angle was not showing it too well so I did a separate photo of the alignment ends.

With the nose bevel flush with the edge of the square we know the gouge is at the same angle in both jigs.
The pivot point if both jigs is at the same place.
The line from the heel of the bevel to the pivot point is the same length for both you get the same grind.

There are some quick ways to set the varigrind that rely on the length of the pivot point from the top of the jig.

To get the Ellsworth grind the pivot point is located 7” in front of the the wheel and 4 “ below the center of the wheel.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
15
Likes
6
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Mr Hockenbery I understand that the jigs may (do) produce the same nose angle. You can set the same nose angle with any jig. The issue is whether they produce the same side grind when you rotate the jig. I believe the SIDE GRIND angle(s) is dependant on both the angle of the leg to the gouge axis and the EFFECTIVE gouge projection ( there are other variables like flute shape and length of wing). Both seem to be different between the old and new Ellsworth jigs

May I respectfully ask if you actually tried to reproduce the little test that I suggested to demonstrate what I am trying to discuss.

Currently I own a Wolverine Jig and have recently purchased a Hannes Jig from Johanness. Using the same leg angle and the standard wolverine projection (2") they actually produce a different side grind when using the centre pivot on the Hannes Base( Shifting the pivot point sideways introduces an extra variable which was not used). I don't yet own a Ellsworth jig ( Old or New) so I cannot compare hence my original Question. I am always trying to learn and understand. I would like to actually try a TRUE Ellsworth grind for myself and will order a new Ellsworth Jig. Finding an older jig is more difficult.
Ron
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,593
Likes
4,890
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
The issue is whether they produce the same side grind when you rotate the jig. I believe the SIDE GRIND angle(s) is dependant on both the angle of the leg to the gouge axis and the EFFECTIVE gouge projection ( there are other variables like flute shape and length of wing). Both seem to be different between the old and new Ellsworth jigs

Both jigs produce the same grind with a 2” projection.

The nose bevel angle as you point out can be achieved with any jig or by putting the end of the handle in a pocket or putting the steel on a platform. It is the rotation of the jig with the pivot point fixed that rotates everything about the line from the pivot point to the center front of the wheel which allows the shaping of the wing. The actual shape of the wing will vary with the profile of the gouge flute.

How the wing is shaped depends on the distance the pocket is from the front of the wheel and it’s height relative to the center of the wheel. With the varigrind each time you change the protrusion or the angle of the leg you change the length of the line from the pocket pivot point To the center of the wheel and you must move the pocket to match the new length.

The Ellsworth grind is achieved when using the 2-4-7. That is the gouge projects 2” from the jig.
The pivot pocket is located 4” below and 7” from the from center of the wheel.

If I put the gouge shown in the picture in a varigrind with a 2” projection and set the angle so that the heel of the bevel and pivot points hit the same marks shown in the photo 64D7BD1E-ACBB-4333-B2CA-9D42B9A974D2.jpeg I will get the same grind as both a Ellsworth jigs using the same pivot pocket.

I have matched hundreds of grinds with the varigrind by adjusting the angle and of the varigrind and moving the pivot pocket and tweaking the protrusion. I’m comfortable with how it works. I may not be good at explaining it.
 
Last edited:

Dennis J Gooding

Beta Tester
Beta Tester
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
824
Likes
732
Location
Grants Pass, Oregon
Dennis
If you look carefully at the photo of the two jigs together you will see that if a gouge projects 2" out the front of the jigs the actual projection from where the leg meets the axis of the gouge is quite different.
Also it is not the angle between a line from the pivot point and the axis of the gouge that is critical but the angle between the gouge axis and the leg where it meets the gouge axis. I know this is hard to visualise but consider what happens with a Oneway jig when you change the leg angle. By the way the leg actually meets the gouge axis at the front of a Oneway jig but towards the rear on an Ellsworth or Hannes Jig. The EFFECTIVE gouge projection when a gouge sticks out 2" in front of either jig is actually quite different.

To get a consistent grind using these jigs everybody knows that the actual projection needs to be kept constant from sharpening to sharpening. However what projection you actually use is up to you but it does affect the outcome. Ellsworth recommends 2" but Hannes uses 2 5/8". I believe that to obtain an Ellsworth grind on a Oneway jig the projection needs to be significantly increased.
Ron


Let’s start with some fundamentals. There are two basic independent parameters that control the geometry of the grind for this class of grinding jigs. They are (1) the angle between the axis of the gouge and a tangent line to the grinding wheel at the nose of the gouge, and (2) the angle between the axis of the gouge and a line running from the nose of the gouge to the pivot point. Parameter 1 is referred to as the nose angle and is the starting point from which the grind evolves as one swings the assembly to the left or right. The line running from the nose of the gouge to the pivot point is the axis about which the assembly rotates as the assembly is swung. Parameter 2 essentially defines how the sharpening angle changes as the assembly is rotated from the central position. Basically, if this angle is small, the wings become blunt quickly. If it is larger, as in the Elsworth jig, wings of length equal to the gouge diameter and larger retain useful sharpness.

Note that while there only two basic parameters, it is difficult to adjust them directly. Instead, we usually have either two or three indirect adjustments at our disposal. With the Elsworth jig, we have only two: the gouge protrusion from the jig and the position of the V-arm. With the Varigrind jig we have a third, the adjustable arm angle. Unfortunately, these adjustments interact with each other to some extent. Changing any one of them affects both Parameter 1 and Parameter 2 to some extent. For that reason, the Elsworth jig requires a specific gouge protrusion to obtain the desired value for Parameter 2. This leaves only Parameter 1 (nose angle) to be selected using the position of the V-arm. In the case of the Varigrind jig, we are free to choose a fairly wide range of protrusion values, because the other two adjustments can be used to compensate exactly (to within their ranges of adjustment). Note that the arm angle of the Varigrind jig is not a basic parameter itself; it is merely a means of adjusting Parameter 2. However this arm angle, together with the gouge protrusion value has become a sort of standard for describing the setup of the Varigrind jig.

Having said all this, It is easy to check whether the two jig setups are equivalent. Simply mark on a sheet of paper a point A at the nose of the gouge, a point B at the pivot and a point C on the centerline of the gouge near the handle for each setup. If the length of line AB and the angle between line AB and AC are the same in both cases the jigs are equivalent.
 
Back
Top