Henrt Taylor "Artisian" vs Hamlet standard M2 bowl gouges

[odie]

I have been using the Henry Taylor "Artisian" M2 bowl gouges for the past few years, and have been very happy with the quality of this gouge. It's not polished to a high degree.....but, I polish them myself on a 3M deburring wheel.

The 17" Taylor handles are not to my liking at all, and I've been cutting them down to 14" or less. (1st pic) The longer 17" handles are just too clumsy, and that added few inches may be a selling point, but useless and in the way, for practical use.

The Henry Taylor M2 bowl gouges are a great tool, and are as high quality and cheaper than the Robert Sorby. (Which, if it weren't for the price, I'd have more Sorbys...........the Sorby is a very good tool, but I just can't justify paying more and not getting more.)

Recently, I've become aware of the Hamlet M2 bowl gouges......so, bought a couple of them to try out. These Hamlet M2 bowl gouges have as good M2 steel as both the Henry Taylor, or the Robert Sorby. The Hamlets are about $10 cheaper than the Taylors, and the Taylor Artisian is about $10 cheaper than the Sorbys. I buy two at a time, and take advantage of the 10% discount.

The Hamlet gouges come with a 14" handle, so I don't bother to cut them down. I'd prefer the handles to be slightly thinner, but are very usable as they come. I suppose that's one advantage to having the need to cut them down......I can shape them to any shape of my choice. This is not necessary, though. The Hamlet M2 gouges also need polishing.......no problem with the 3M deburr wheel.....it's quick and easy.

One advantage to the new Hamlet M2 bowl gouges, is they have a 7" flute.....instead of the usual 6" or less. This adds quite a bit of additional life span to the tool.........and is golden, in my opinion!

The need for polishing is not a consideration.......but the reduced price, shorter handle, and longer flute, make the Hamlet M2 bowl gouges a much more appealing option for me.......and, unless something better comes along, I'll continue to buy more of these.......

ooc

First pic shows shortened Henry taylor tools, with one original as an example.

Second pic shows one Hamlet bowl gouge currently in use. This has black cloth hocky tape wrapped on the grip area. With it, is one original Henry Taylor Artisian, and one original Hamlet gouge. Notice the added length of the Taylor tool handle, and the shorter flute.

.

 

[robo hippy]

I still have some of the first set of Artisan chisels I got many years ago. Pretty good steel. I haven't tried the Hamlet gouges. The Thompson and D Way are much better. One advantage to buying unhandled tools is being able to make yours just like you want them. I prefer a straight cylinder.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

I still have some of the first set of Artisan chisels I got many years ago. Pretty good steel. I haven't tried the Hamlet gouges. The Thompson and D Way are much better. One advantage to buying unhandled tools is being able to make yours just like you want them. I prefer a straight cylinder.

robo hippy

Hello Robo Hippy.......

Now, now.......Saying one is "better", without saying why you think so, isn't allowed on this thread! Or, do you mean that the Thompson and D-Way cut better, because they just do......like magic?

I can understand why one turner might want to make their own handles. I do have my preferences as well, but if it had anything to do with actual performance, or results, I'd be more inclined to view making my own handles more of a requirement, rather than a "style" need....... For me, getting handled tools is more of a matter of convience, because I use so many different grinds, that I just don't/didn't want to spend the effort to make all the handles I'd have to have, otherwise.

I should mention that the hockey tape wrap on the handles is something I've been doing more recently, and I'm getting to like that quite a bit. This tape is the wrap they use for grip on Ice Hockey sticks. I use this tape for gripping surfaces on exercise equipment, so I have some on hand anyway. The hockey tape doesn't really add to performance, but it does feel pretty good in the hands. It's cheap, and quick to do.......so, what the heck!

ooc

 

[john lucas]

I still use a Henry Taylor gouge frequently that I have a special grind on. I'll take my Thompson tools any day over it. The Henry Taylor is a fine tool and had I never purchased the thompsons would still love it. The thompsons just keep on cutting. I've changed over almost all my other tools to Thompsons over the last 8 years as the older gouges get worn down. They don't have a polished flute but I haven't needed it. I do hone the inside with a diamond fish hook but that's more for cleaning up the burr left by the grinder than anything else.

 

[hockenbery]

I can understand why one turner might want to make their own handles. I do have my preferences as well, but if it had anything to do with actual performance, or results, I'd be more inclined to view making my own handles more of a requirement, rather than a "style" need....... For me, getting handled tools is more of a matter of convience, because I use so many different grinds, that I just don't/didn't want to spend the effort to make all the handles .........
ooc

Odie,
you only have to make a handle once

I don't glue my gouges in the wooden handle just tap the handle on a bench and the gouges stay in and a couple years later knock the handle off and put the new gouge in.

Some of the Thompson tools have a step on the shaft. This can be wrapped with a little tape to get a tight fit.

I like wood handles.
I have a few Thompson tools and they are great.

With my style of turning I don't get much advantage from the edge holding of the Thompson 5/8 dia bowl gouge.
On a hollow form I sharpen when I start. I sharpen when I start my finish cuts, and I sharpen when I begin to shear scrape.
With an m2 tool I might sharpen one more time on a large form during the roughing.
So sharpen a Thompson 3 times and an m2 tool 3-4 times. Both tools are going to last about the same time.

When I'd do 90 minute demos I generally take 4 bowl gouges. I don't have to interrupt the flow of the demo by sharpening I just grab a tool that has a sharp side that I want.
Also some clubs don't have grinders in the room and most don't have it positioned to where the audience can see anything and space makes it difficult to reposition it.
Sometimes I pull the grinder out show sharpening at the beginning.

I am now careful to explain that these tools are all the same after I was asked halfway through a demo, " how many tool are you going to use on that?..."

Al

 

[odie]

I still use a Henry Taylor gouge frequently that I have a special grind on. I'll take my Thompson tools any day over it. The Henry Taylor is a fine tool and had I never purchased the thompsons would still love it. The thompsons just keep on cutting. I've changed over almost all my other tools to Thompsons over the last 8 years as the older gouges get worn down. They don't have a polished flute but I haven't needed it. I do hone the inside with a diamond fish hook but that's more for cleaning up the burr left by the grinder than anything else.

John........

You and Robo aren't adding anything of substance.......sort of like the "My daddy can whip your daddy" kind of thinking!

And.......The reason why the Thompson tool is better is.........?

ooc

BTW: Who needs a polished flute? Its the shaft that needs to slip on the tool rest......that's where a polished surface has any real advantage for a turner.

.

 

[odie]

Odie,
you only have to make a handle once

I don't glue my gouges in the wooden handle just tap the handle on a bench and the gouges stay in and a couple years later knock the handle off and put the new gouge in.

Some of the Thompson tools have a step on the shaft. This can be wrapped with a little tape to get a tight fit.

I like wood handles.
I have a few Thompson tools and they are great.

With my style of turning I don't get much advantage from the edge holding of the Thompson 5/8 dia bowl gouge.
On a hollow form I sharpen when I start. I sharpen when I start my finish cuts, and I sharpen when I begin to shear scrape.
With an m2 tool I might sharpen one more time on a large form during the roughing.
So sharpen a Thompson 3 times and an m2 tool 3-4 times. Both tools are going to last about the same time.


Al

Hiya Al.......

I can't buck anyone's decision to make their own handles........ I have run across the attitude that if you don't make your own handles, then it's an indication of a level of achievement.......all that is a bunch of hogwash!

If I can surmise from your input, the difference between a Thompson and a Taylor, Sorby, ect.......is the ability to hold an edge? (M2 HSS vs something harder)

This I can agree with, too.....and, the difference is the tool steel used. Your point about sharpening only slightly more often is the same conclusions I've come to, as well. M2 is such a useful steel for the needs of a turner.....sharpens easily, hand hones easily, and lasts a reasonably long time. To my way of thinking, the harder steels are actually an extra burden to a turner. They begin to dull at exactly the same point.......when they are first used. Granted, they dull at a slower rate, but different woods dull the tools at different rates, as well. There is not one bit of difference as to how sharp they both can be.......the difference is when, where, and why the turner decides it's time to re-sharpen. That......is the $64,000 question!

The reason those things need to be addressed, is because one should sharpen at the very point the sharper edge will produce benefits......not, when it becomes so dull that it's obviously way past the point of where it should have been sharpened. The point at which a turner should sharpen, and needs to sharpen is not the same. The ability to sharpen quickly and efficiently is an important thing to master. I am fully aware of the newbie thinking that they really hate the thought of resharpening, so don't do it as often as they should.......been there, done that! The upside of that is eventually every turner will sharpen for optimal result......not, because their actual needs overcomes the disdain for sharpening. Yeah, you know it, and I know it......because most all of us have had that mentality.

When one chooses to resharpen is critical......and the decision won't be the same for one piece of wood vs another. It won't be the same for different species, grain patterns, moisture content, roughing vs shaping, vs final tool finish prior to sanding, etc, etc, etc. All these things enter into the equation of when to sharpen. We all want hard, chiseled in stone, rules that apply.......and, that just ain't gonna happen!


ooc

 

[robo hippy]

The edge holding ability of the Thompson and D Way, and probably some of the other more fancy metals is far superior to standard M2 HSS. Not one of those things you can explain, you have to experience it, but if you try it, you will like it, and I will guarantee that. I still have an old gouge from Packard, and a couple from Oneway that hold the edge '5 times longer' or some thing like that, and I still prefer the Thompson. Not up to carbide abilities, but you can sharpen them. Probably as much or more so in importance is flute design. I prefer more open, and do not like steep V at all. Best example that comes to mind is a Glaser V. Saw a Jet V that was so steep, when sharpening, you ended up with a point, and not a rounded nose. Probably designed by some tech who knew nothing about gouge use at all. I never worry about honing the inside flutes of my gouges. I did fine long ago that if I was using the flute and wings for a shear scrape/cut (non bevel rubbing type) that it did help to remove the grinding burr.

I don't really consider handles to be any kind of issue. I do not line the shot filled handles. Supposed to 'dampen' vibration. Well, move the tool rest in a bit closer, and problem solved, and I don't like the extra weight. Wood, not too heavy, not too light. I don't like cold metal, or the feel of plastic.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

I like the edge holding of the thompson's and the shape of the flutes. It just seems to work for me. I do sharpen frequently like Al and at first didn't really see much difference. the more I use them the more I go with them and the less I use my M2 steels. I can't put numbers to it, I just like the way they work.
I do no that when I had to turn some aluminum parts for an artist friend I had to sharpen the M2 steel gouges 2 or 3 times per part. I could easily turn 1 whole part with one sharpening of the Thompsons.
I use to buy the Packard house brand tools and they are really nice for the money. I would guess they are similar to the Henry Taylor Artisan. I haven't compared prices lately to see how they compare to a new Thompson. I'll have to do that one of these days.

 

[odie]

I do not like the shot filled handles. Supposed to 'dampen' vibration. Well, move the tool rest in a bit closer, and problem solved, and I don't like the extra weight. Wood, not too heavy, not too light. I don't like cold metal, or the feel of plastic.

robo hippy

This is a very interesting observation, Robo.......

I've never tried the shot filled handles, but this has been generally considered a gimmick that is designed to market......rather than apply to an actual need.

As to plastic handles, or quick change handles.......it isn't the feel of the handle itself......it's that I know myself better than to throw money at something that I know darn well won't live up to the promise. Quick change anything appleals to solutions that do not, nor will not ever suit my needs. I know myself, and what I know is that changing tools in a universal handle will become a royal pain to do. Quick change makes sense on the surface......but, will fail to meet the "practical application" test.....

Quick change works for something like a socket on a ratchet wrench.......but, not for a woodturner, where mental concentration is part of the process.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Not quite sure of the point here, Odie.

You seem to decry the "my daddy can" thing, yet you're quick to engage in just that by denigrating others who don't appear to agree or disagree with your points of view by accusing them of "not adding anything" to the thread. Are you looking for an argument here?

In my shop, polishing a tool shaft would be a complete waste of time as all my tool rests have a top bearing surface hardened to R-60+ so every piece of steel that touches them simply glides along with no dings, dents, etm.

As for the tool steel itself, aside from my hollowing tools that are either high cobalt alloys or carbide, all my gouges (except the SRG and a 7/8" A-11 Glazer) are Hamlets in 2060 alloy. I started out with M2 tools but have given most all of them away over the years. Same for my two skews.

With my turning method and bevel shape, I prefer the Hamlet gouge's flute geometry, but have turned with a friend's Thompson gouge which, when/if I need a new bowl gouge, I will buy to replace them. Not too likely however, since I turn few bowls anymore and my 8-year old Hamlets have only lost a 1/4" or so in length. As I'm not a "tool collector", I buy something only when its needed as opposed to lusting after the next new thing a real man can't live without.

In addition, I normally only need to "freshen" my tools' edges with the lightest of touches to the wheel (180 CBN) followed by a few easy swipes with a slip in the flute to remove the wire edge. The 2060 alloy cuts smoothly for a long time, far longer than M2, even in abrasive woods, so, coupled with my sharpening method, I use far less steel over time.

You mileage may differ so enjoy your ride however you choose to drive.

 

[odie]

Not quite sure of the point here, Odie.

You seem to decry the "my daddy can" thing, yet you're quick to engage in just that by denigrating others who don't appear to agree or disagree with your points of view by accusing them of "not adding anything" to the thread. Are you looking for an argument here?

In my shop, polishing a tool shaft would be a complete waste of time as all my tool rests have a top bearing surface hardened to R-60+ so every piece of steel that touches them simply glides along with no dings, dents, etm.

As for the tool steel itself, aside from my hollowing tools that are either high cobalt alloys or carbide, all my gouges (except the SRG and a 7/8" A-11 Glazer) are Hamlets in 2060 alloy. I started out with M2 tools but have given most all of them away over the years. Same for my two skews.

With my turning method and bevel shape, I prefer the Hamlet gouge's flute geometry, but have turned with a friend's Thompson gouge which, when/if I need a new bowl gouge, I will buy to replace them. Not too likely however, since I turn few bowls anymore and my 8-year old Hamlets have only lost a 1/4" or so in length. As I'm not a "tool collector", I buy something only when its needed as opposed to lusting after the next new thing a real man can't live without.

In addition, I normally only need to "freshen" my tools' edges with the lightest of touches to the wheel (180 CBN) followed by a few easy swipes with a slip in the flute to remove the wire edge. The 2060 alloy cuts smoothly for a long time, far longer than M2, even in abrasive woods, so, coupled with my sharpening method, I use far less steel over time.

You mileage may differ so enjoy your ride however you choose to drive.

Your insinuation is not worth pursuing, Mark.......Sometimes, it's better to observe those who accuse, rather than those who are accused. It should be obvious where the substance is, and where it is not.

I do wish to make the point that a polished surface does slide over a hardened tool rest better. I also have some hardened Robust rests, but have concluded differently than you have.

ooc

 

[john lucas]

I'm not a fan of the weighted handles either except for the possibility or the early roughing stages of large bowls. It does seem to reduce the bouncing and chatter. I don't like the weight for general turning because it just tires me out by the end of the day.
I do have a few removeable handles. They are really nice when sharpening because you don't have the weight of the handle fighting you. However the set screw type handles require too much time for that particular reason. I have 2 that are sort of quick release and those are really sweet for that purpose.

 

[davidwalser]

...

Quick change anything appleals to solutions that do not, nor will not ever suit my needs. I know myself, and what I know is that changing tools in a universal handle will become a royal pain to do. Quick change makes sense on the surface......but, will fail to meet the "practical application" test.....

Quick change works for something like a socket on a ratchet wrench.......but, not for a woodturner, where mental concentration is part of the process.

I was with you until you went from expressing your personal preference to extending that preference to the generic "woodturner". In general, for the way I turn, I like wooden handles. The handles feel good in my hand, seem to dampen excessive vibration without reducing the feel of the cut, are neither too hot nor too cold, and can be customized (if I want) for each tool. Wood is a great medium for making tool handles.

Having said that, I have several metal, swappable, handles. They all serve their purpose and I'm not tempted to replace any of them with wood handles. For example, I have a bowl corer that came with several blades and a metal handle. The metal handle is more than adequate -- quite comfortable to use, in fact. My only gripe is that it takes a minute or two to switch from one blade to the next. But, I wouldn't want to make wooden handles for all the blades. While that would be more convenient to use, the tools would take up far more room to store and sharpening would be more difficult. Most of my other metal handles serve similarly specialized purposes and I like them for those purposes.

I do have one metal handle that I use for general purposes and I love it and strongly prefer it to wood. I have a Serious Camlock Handle (from the folks who make the Serious Wood Lathe) and I simply love it. It's made from stainless steel wrapped in a dense rubber foam that's both soft and durable. Like wooden handles, this one fits well and feels right in my hand. It's neither too hot nor too cold and is about the same weight as a wooden handle. The rubber foam dampens vibrations without reducing the feel of the cut. Because it feels so secure in my hand, I feel like I hold it with a lighter grip, which gives me better control while reducing fatigue.

That slightly better feel causes me to slightly prefer it to wooden handles. Then, why do I strongly prefer it to a wooden handle? Because of the camlock. I use the handle for my 1/2" spindle and detail gouges. I have gouges from Thompson and Serious in that size. Both fit quickly and easily in the handle. The Serious gouges are double ended (the flute runs the entire length of the round bar). I like going to the lathe with both ends sharp and being able to quickly swap ends when the first one starts to dull or just for that finish cut. I could have two identical tools with two similar (yet different) wooden handles that I could, but the second always feels slightly different in my hand than did the first. With the Serious handle, I can switch ends of the gouge in seconds and the tool will feel exactly the same in my hand -- which makes it far easier for me to pick up the cut exactly where I want to. I didn't think that would make such a difference when I bought the handle and blade (I thought I'd grind each end to a different profile), but it's become a huge benefit for me based on my style of turning.

Since I use my 1/2" gouges more than any others in my turning, I love having the same handle for all of them. The camlock allows me to simply make a quarter turn of the lock to remove and install a tool. It's fast, takes up less room in my shop, and, for me, makes my cutting more precise. Finally, there are times when I'd like to change the amount the tool extends out of the handle. With the camlock, that's very easy to do. So, the Serious Camlock Handle is more flexible than would be its wooden counterpart.

In the end, as much as I like my wooden handles, I'd replace them all with Serious Camlock Handles if Serious made the handles in different sizes. They don't, so I won't.

These are just my personal preferences. I've no idea how others would feel.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Your insinuation is not worth pursuing, Mark.......Sometimes, it's better to observe those who accuse, rather than those who are accused. It should be obvious where the substance is, and where it is not.

Sorry, Odie, you lost me on the "insinuation" part. The critique of John and Robo's replies were all yours, so you might care to step back and review them as other readers might. Or not.

But, as I closed, if polishing a tool shaft makes things better for you, by all means do so and enjoy yourself.

 

[hockenbery]

John, david,

I agree with John on not liking weighted handles. Just too much to lift for a long time and I find them fatiguing. I don't need a weighted shock absorber since my roughing methods avoid bounce.

David and I have different opinions. I think there is subtle benefit to having different handles which changes the grip slightly and make it less tiring to change off now and then. Sort of why I don't like the heavy handles. I rarely turn for more than 2-3 hours at a time these days so it isn't too important now.
I think this is a lot more important when using rotary carving tools where using different hand pieces seems to be a way of resting.

On the other hand if someone finds the "perfect" handle for themselves stick with it.
David like swapping tools quickly. I like grabbing another. No right or wrong just different likes.

Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

John, david,

I agree with John on not liking weighted handles. Just too much to lift for a long time and I find them fatiguing. I don't need a weighted shock absorber since my roughing methods avoid bounce.

David and I have different opinions. I think there is subtle benefit to having different handles which changes the grip slightly and make it less tiring to change off now and then. Sort of why I don't like the heavy handles. I rarely turn for more than 2-3 hours at a time these days so it isn't too important now.
I think this is a lot more important when using rotary carving tools where using different hand pieces seems to be a way of resting.

On the other hand if someone finds the "perfect" handle for themselves stick with it.
David like swapping tools quickly. I like grabbing another. No right or wrong just different likes.

Al

With carpal tunnel in both hands, I've had to turn most of my working handles to give me the grip relief I need. Incorporating varying thicknesses and shapes along the length of the handle, like a ball on the end, can go a long way to relieving or preventing the irritation that can occur in the nerve sheaths. Since I'm working more from the end of my short bed lathe, longer handles seem to give me more options as to grip, stance, and cut stroke as well as different elbow flex angles.

I tried the lead shot deal in my Pro-Form handle. Didn't do what I was told it would, so I gave the rest of the 25lbs. of lead bird shot I had to buy to a friend who hunts with a muzzle loader. My big Glazer gouge came with shot in the handle as, I think, most of Jerry's tools did at that time.

 

[odie]

I was with you until you went from expressing your personal preference to extending that preference to the generic "woodturner".

Thanks for this, david......I'll take this as valid criticism. I should have remained within the parimeters of what works for me, and not attempted to apply it to anyone else.

ooc

 

[dbonertz]

Odie,

I to like the exchangeable handle. Kelton Industries makes an ER32, ER25 and a ER16. They are different lengths and handle several collets for different size tools. When I am production turning I use six 3/4" gouges and five 5/8" gouges (one is double ended so essentially six gouges). I can quickly pop one out and insert another and be going again with the kelton handles. I no longer have 11 handled tools sitting there in the way. I now have eleven tools taking up much less space and they are easier to sharpen without the handle on them. As David said sometimes you want to lengthen or shorten them which is a breeze with the camlock handles. Storing tools take up much less space and you become familiar with the handle which takes any muscle memory issues out of play. Having said that there are some tools I simply prefer a wood handle.

"As to plastic handles, or quick change handles.......it isn't the feel of the handle itself......it's that I know myself better than to throw money at something that I know darn well won't live up to the promise. Quick change anything appleals to solutions that do not, nor will not ever suit my needs. I know myself, and what I know is that changing tools in a universal handle will become a royal pain to do. Quick change makes sense on the surface......but, will fail to meet the "practical application" test..

You made this comment but it sounds as though you have not given it a try or chance. I have said this hundreds of times "For a professional time is money but for a hobbyist time is precious". My meaning is simple, just because you're a hobbyist doesn't mean you cannot strive for efficiency in your shop like a professional, since your time is limited for the hobby. Try a quick change camlock handle for a while, I think you grow to love them also. The ER16 handles are about 12" long and light and will handle tools up 1/2" I think.

As far as tool steel I have M2, M4, 2030, 2060 and V10. They all have their place for a particular application. It is one of those things, why change it until the tool wears out and even then maybe or maybe not. The new will work whether it is the same steel or a different steel, you'll adjust to whatever steel it is.

 

[hockenbery]

[QUOTE="Mark Mandell;]. My big Glazer gouge came with shot in the handle as, I think, most of Jerry's tools did at that time.[/QUOTE]
Mark,
Easy fix for that. Heat the gouge where it goes into the handle with a torch just a bit and the gouge will come out. Keep the handle vertical while pulling the gouge out then Dump the shot out and give it to your friend. Clean out the hole put some medium CA on the gouge and put it back. Henry Taylor gouges fit too.

You can buy shot in like 1 and 5 pound bags.
I know several people who have drilled out wooden handles filled them with shot an glued on a turned cap.

Al

 

[Mark Mandell]

Mark,
Easy fix for that. Heat the gouge where it goes into the handle with a torch just a bit and the gouge will come out. Keep the handle vertical while pulling the gouge out then Dump the shot out and give it to you friend. Clean out the hole put some medium CA on the gouge and put it back. Henry Taylor gouges fit too.

You can buy shot in like 1 and 5 pound bags.
I know several people who have drilled out wooden handles filled them with shot an glued on a turned cap.

Al

Hi Al,

I have no problem with the shot in the Glazer handle. It's just that I tried the Pro-Form both ways and it made no perceivable (to me) difference. The Pro-form handle is now irrelevant since I do all my hollowing with the Kobra rig.

Besides, the Gazer is used so rarely it's practically like new. Were I to remove the shot, it would reduce the intrinsic value of the piece substantially if I decided to sell it to some turning tool collector or Don Geiger devotee

1-5lbs? I'm in Jersey. Not a lot of reloaders in my area. Local gun shop only carried 25 lb. bags.

 

[robo hippy]

Best reason I ever heard for the quick change handles was for travel as your tools are much shorter, and easier to pack.

Part of my tool buying habit is curiosity. I like to see how things work. I never use a swept back gouge any more. I do have 2 but almost never pick them up. I prefer the standard fingernail grind. I do turn with my tools held level, and flutes at 45 to 90 degrees.

Me to my dad once:

"Opinions are like rear ends, every one has one."
Dad, without pausing a second, "yea, and some of them stink!"
Me a month or so later, "Well, some of them are pretty hot too!"

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

John........

You and Robo aren't adding anything of substance.......sort of like the "My daddy can whip your daddy" kind of thinking! .....

I don't think that you really want to be the thread police. Besides, I reread your initial post several times and didn't come away with any clear understanding of where you were going or what you expected from others in return.

A valid reason for somebody's choice in tools may not be a valid reason to you and vice versa. You mentioned using a 3M deburring wheel, but decried others interest in polishing the inside of the flute.

I can see your reason for what you do is to make the tool glide better on the tool rest.

The inside of the flute is one half of the cutting edge. With a rough flute the edge itself is also rough. Besides, a rough inside of the flute will build up hard resins much faster than a smooth edge. When resins build up on one side of the cutting edge, there is no longer an edge that cuts. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[odie]

The inside of the flute is one half of the cutting edge. With a rough flute the edge itself is also rough. Besides, a rough inside of the flute will build up hard resins much faster than a smooth edge. When resins build up on one side of the cutting edge, there is no longer an edge that cuts. Seems pretty simple to me.

BB......

If you're thinking I polish flutes with a deburr wheel, it's a misconception. The deburr wheel is only for the surface on the shaft that makes contact, and slides on the tool rest. I do hand hone the burr from the inside of flutes after sharpening and honing the other side. Since this is the case, polishing the flute is inconsequential, because the very edge of the flute closest to the cutting edge is not resulting from anything but the honing process.

Any "resins" built up inside the flute are removed prior to resharpening.

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

BB......

If you're thinking I polish flutes with a deburr wheel, it's a misconception. The deburr wheel is only for the surface on the shaft that makes contact, and slides on the tool rest. I do hand hone the burr from the inside of flutes after sharpening and honing the other side. Since this is the case, polishing the flute is inconsequential, because the very edge of the flute closest to the cutting edge is not resulting from anything but the honing process.

Any "resins" built up inside the flute are removed prior to resharpening.

ooc

No, reread my post. You have completely misread what I said.

 

[odie]

No, reread my post. You have completely misread what I said.

OK, I can see that I did, BB.......my apology.

It should be understood that a build-up of resins in the flute isn't a problem for those who clean, or clean and hone the edge with frequency. This is only a problem for those who try to extend the life of an edge beyond practicality, or fail to clean the flute when they should have. There is one thing that should be considered.......the amount, or rate of buildup in a flute, is more dependent on how much it's allowed to accumulate before it's cleaned. It's not mainly the degree of polish a flute may have, but the base of build-up that is allowed to harden beneath it.

The buildup in a flute will vary with moisture content, as well as the species of wood, and some pieces of wood of the same species will be different. When it does build up, the process is compounded with heat......the resins will "bake" onto the surface. When the buildup is removed with frequency, all the problems of not tending to these issues are gone..........:cool2:

For an immediate prevention of buildup, I have a piece of wood fitted to the bedways. A quick bump of the gouge on the wood works well for removing potential buildup before it has a chance to harden with heat. For a little more aggressive removal that doesn't dull the cutting edge, I have a plastic bristle tile brush that can be used in the flute when a re-hone isn't going to be done.

Just prior to re-honing, I use a brass bristle brush that will completly remove anything sticking inside the flute. The brass and tile brushes are hanging next to the grinder, and the grinder is only a few feet away from the lathe.


ooc

The flute cleaning brushes can be seen hanging on the right side of the grinder. The wood block that mounts between the bedways has some magnets on the bottom. That way, it's quick to bring into action, and put out of the way just as quickly......

 

[MichaelMouse]

I've got Taylor tools in M2, but the only Hamlets are 2060, so the comparison will have to be handles only. I like the rounded end in a short handle. The Sorby tools I have come with the long handles, so I choke up short of that sharp bitter end. The ones I make have palm-round ends like the Taylor/Hamlet tools. Can either fist or palm them with comfort.

I cut over the bed and horizontal, or nearly so, so short handles or long are no real problem. Longer are made shorter by where I hold 'em. Folks who drop the handles and try to work around banjo or rest probably prefer shorter handles with the sacrifice in mechanical advantage. I know a few outboard turners who like the "Texas Toothpick" length handles. They clasp between hip and hand and do a cooch dance when hollowing. They also tend to have their lathes too high for me. I set a platform at the end and went back to my regular way - only to the right - when turning outboard on their setup.

'Nother one of those things that bother me are those who speak of shot-dampening in handles or padded gloves. I think they may be the same as those getting "chips" rather than shavings, which practically fall off the piece with the proper presentation. Anchor and swing can reduce irregularities of an inch in three passes, so no need there. Resins don't build up in the flute when shaving. I think they might if the pitch angle is high enough for a scrape which makes heat and squeezes the vessels. If the pitch is low, even tamarack can be turned if you periodically wipe the bevel on the back which does press a bit and load with resin. Little mineral spirits or WD40 with a paper towel do for me.

Boiled down, it's how you use the tool and how you set the lathe that limits you. If you present so you have to get a death grip on the tool handle to control it, it won't do your arthritic knuckles any good. I suggest those that do, for whatever reason, consider making their handles with differing diameters on similar use tools so they can pick up the one that eases their hand best when required. I do it with my carving mallets, even though I tend to use them ten-fifteen minutes max when hogging. Never really have to with the turning tools.

 

[robo hippy]

Odie was right in that I didn't clarify why I liked the powder metals better. 'My dad can whip your dad' may not have been a good analogy.

Resin build up is funny. It depends on the wood. Madrone leaves a sticky mess on everything when I turn it. I have tried Pam, and Top Cote on my flutes, and it still sticks. Maybe teflon, or rain x....

robo hippy

 

[Mark Mandell]

The flute cleaning brushes can be seen hanging on the right side of the grinder. The wood block that mounts between the bedways has some magnets on the bottom. That way, it's quick to bring into action, and put out of the way just as quickly......

I'm curious about this. How does a wood block or brush remove resin from the surface of a tool's flute?

I seem to be missing something here.

tia

 

[Bill Boehme]

OK, I can see that I did, BB.......my apology.

It should be understood that a build-up of resins in the flute isn't a problem for those who clean, or clean and hone the edge with frequency. This is only a problem for those who try to extend the life of an edge beyond practicality, or fail to clean the flute when they should have. There is one thing that should be considered.......the amount, or rate of buildup in a flute, is more dependent on how much it's allowed to accumulate before it's cleaned. It's not mainly the degree of polish a flute may have, but the base of build-up that is allowed to harden beneath it.

.....

I agree with your cleaning philosophy, but I have turned some wood occasionally where the resins build up and cook before the actual cutting edge is dull. It seems to me that a flute that is more or less polished has less tendency to have build up of this gunk that adheres with the same tenacity. In any event, the actual cutting edge can be sharp, but gunk in the flute will stop the tool from cutting. Making a habit of cleaning the flute is essential, but also I believe a slick metal surface is a deterrent against strong adhesion of resin build up. I go so far as to use Johnson's Paste Wax on the gouge after sharpening including exterior, flute, and bevel. I figure that it wears off the bevel quickly, but stays on the other areas. It is hard to say how much this helps, but it gives me a warm fuzzy, if nothing else. I also hone the bevel. Sometimes I wonder which gives me the most satisfaction -- the pursuit of the perfect cutting edge or the actual turning being created.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Little mineral spirits or WD40 with a paper towel do for me.

Here too. MS cleans off the metal surface, polished or not, with a wipe.

 

[hockenbery]

In any event, the actual cutting edge can be sharp, but gunk in the flute will stop the tool from cutting. Making a habit of cleaning the flute is essential, but also I believe a slick metal surface is a deterrent against strong adhesion of resin build up. I go so far as to use Johnson's Paste Wax on the gouge after sharpening including exterior, flute, and bevel. I figure that it wears off the bevel quickly, but stays on the other areas. It is hard to say how much this helps, but it gives me a warm fuzzy, if nothing else. I also hone the bevel. D

This is often the case.
I turn mostly wet wood. Most of the time I'm sharpening more because of resin build up has made the bevel drag or reduced the effectiveness of the cutting edge.
I take a stroke or two with a slip stone and then sharpen.

I also think the non bevel riding roughing cut I learned from David E. gets less buildup of resins than the bevel riding finish cuts.
It could be related more to the number of rotations of the lathe per pass.
In the roughing removing 3/4" of wood with each pass across the high areas the cutting edge does not contact the wood for many rotations each pass
The smoothing cuts removing 1/8, 1/16, 1/32.... Have a lot more rotational contact plus the bevel contact.
Plus there can be quite a bit of bevel contact with no cutting as I feel for the curve and feel for the cut.

 

[odie]

Odie was right in that I didn't clarify why I liked the powder metals better. 'My dad can whip your dad' may not have been a good analogy.

Resin build up is funny. It depends on the wood. Madrone leaves a sticky mess on everything when I turn it. I have tried Pam, and Top Cote on my flutes, and it still sticks. Maybe teflon, or rain x....

robo hippy

Yes, you are right, Robo......

The analogy I used was a poor one. I can see by the responses I'm getting from others, that my forum communication skills aren't the model of perfection.

I misinterpret what others say on forums all the time......and, likewise there are those who misinterpret what I've attempted to communicate as well. Because we are not all basic newbies, and have varying levels of knowledge and experiences......there will always be disagreement. Allowing personalities to conflict is what kills the conversation, as well as the threads and forums, too. I'm guilty of these things, just as much as a few others here.

If we can get past that, and understand that results are the only thing that count", then maybe we can all adjust our own procedures and techniques to our own benefit, without allowing personalities to interfere with our own personal progress. (One applicable assessment of how well the results apply to what's being said, is being able to see the results another turner is getting. This is why it's important for me to actually see some of the finished turnings others do, and apply that to what they've said.)

If I'm allowed to make an attempt at clarifying my intent with the "daddy vs daddy" comment......what I was getting at was in reference to those who simply state positive or negative beliefs about this or that......but, say little or nothing about the reasons why they have arrived at the conclusions they have. At the time, I thought others would make the connection I was attempting to make, but I see it was a failed attempt at leading the reader to that conclusion.....

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

results are the only thing that count"

Perhaps, Odie, this is the nubin of where you and I part company. To illustrate, suffer me a bit of history and a story.

I started playing with wood in school, some 60+ years ago. My undergrad college degree is in Art History with a dual major in studio sculpture. My masters degree is in sculpture. I had a professional studio for sculpture for 3 years. My work sits in private collections. I taught 3-D design and ceramics to AP art students for 7 years. A number of my students started their college careers as sophomores in schools such as the Rhode Island School of Design, Pratt, the New School, and Parsons.

In my pottery/ceramics classes, the potter's wheels stood idle for more that 2 months into each semester. My students were "forced" to learn about their basic material, clay, before moving on. There did, however, come a day in each class where I devoted the entire class time to demonstrating working on the potter's wheel. After demonstrating wedging and centering the clay, I would then "throw" a bowl from a centered mass of about 25lbs of clay, explaining in detail. each step along the way. I would wind up with a large bowl, perhaps 20" in diameter and 14" high. Students were then encouraged to speak about their analysis of the form and the process. They, of course, expected me to carefully save this masterpiece (in their eyes), but instead, to their universal consternation, I would then smash the piece back to its original lump of clay.

Then came the real lesson for the day. Creation is the process, not the result. I could make such bowls all day long, wreck them all, and be just as happy at the end of the day. The things I make are not my babies. It is the activity of creation that is the activity so vital to the artist.

The essence of creation is also the ability to have complete control over the process and the product including the absolute right to destroy what I have made. It is as close as any of us will come to actually playing "god". Creation and destruction are flip-sides of the same coin.

So. Is it only the result that matters? I will state to you, in my experience, that the "result" is of very little value, and if you gauge the activity by its product, you loose a significant part of the joy of the creative process and limit yourself to very shallow value judgments about objects.

 

[hockenbery]

So. Is it only the result that matters? I will state to you, in my experience, that the "result" is of very little value, and if you gauge the activity by its product, you loose a significant part of the joy of the creative process and limit yourself to very shallow value judgments about objects.

Mark,
I both agree and disagree.

The result Is generally what matters to those with whom we share our work.
A bowl made with a chainsaw and smoothing tools. One made from bandsaw cuts and smoothing tool. One made on a lathe all may have near equal value in the the eyes that they are shared with.

For our own gratification. I just enjoy the process of turning. Feeling the tool do its work. Watching the form appear. Watching the surface appear.

I always thought turning made me happy four times
The ideas and planning what go make/create
The process of turning itself and executing the plan and it steps.
Admiring the finished turning
Finding a good home for the turning.

So when did you find time to tackle the Bar?
Al

 

[odie]

Perhaps, Odie, this is the nubin of where you and I part company. To illustrate, suffer me a bit of history and a story.

I started playing with wood in school, some 60+ years ago. My undergrad college degree is in Art History with a dual major in studio sculpture. My masters degree is in sculpture. I had a professional studio for sculpture for 3 years. My work sits in private collections. I taught 3-D design and ceramics to AP art students for 7 years. A number of my students started their college careers as sophomores in schools such as the Rhode Island School of Design, Pratt, the New School, and Parsons.

In my pottery/ceramics classes, the potter's wheels stood idle for more that 2 months into each semester. My students were "forced" to learn about their basic material, clay, before moving on. There did, however, come a day in each class where I devoted the entire class time to demonstrating working on the potter's wheel. After demonstrating wedging and centering the clay, I would then "throw" a bowl from a centered mass of about 25lbs of clay, explaining in detail. each step along the way. I would wind up with a large bowl, perhaps 20" in diameter and 14" high. Students were then encouraged to speak about their analysis of the form and the process. They, of course, expected me to carefully save this masterpiece (in their eyes), but instead, to their universal consternation, I would then smash the piece back to its original lump of clay.

Then came the real lesson for the day. Creation is the process, not the result. I could make such bowls all day long, wreck them all, and be just as happy at the end of the day. The things I make are not my babies. It is the activity of creation that is the activity so vital to the artist.

The essence of creation is also the ability to have complete control over the process and the product including the absolute right to destroy what I have made. It is as close as any of us will come to actually playing "god". Creation and destruction are flip-sides of the same coin.

So. Is it only the result that matters? I will state to you, in my experience, that the "result" is of very little value, and if you gauge the activity by its product, you loose a significant part of the joy of the creative process and limit yourself to very shallow value judgments about objects.

Mark.......

In a nutshell......Yes, the ONLY thing that really counts is results.

You remind me of some people I've known who rant about their "credentials", and how that is the basis for how others should acknowledge their input and advice. I see this exactly the opposite. It's the results one achieves, that is the best basis for applying credibility to the words he speaks.

This is not to say those who haven't accomplished much that will inspire respect from his peers.....but, have had plenty of experience, do not have input worthy of consideration.....but, it's the context from which those words are spoken that makes some advice more notable, than others.

Is it really that difficult to show us what your accomplishments are?......rather than taking your word for it?

oox

 

[Mark Mandell]

So when did you find time to tackle the Bar?
Al

Short Answer: When my kids expressed the opinion that having tuna in their mac and cheese was a big day, and the fish and chips joint was a "night out."

I was willing to starve for my art, but I had no right to ask my wife and children to do likewise.

Between clerking and commuting, I got little sleep for the 3 years of law school, but I passed the bar in 3 states and hit the bricks as a practicing lawyer. I've never looked back in regret, and my children are not being crushed by student loan debt.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Is it really that difficult to show us what your accomplishments are?......rather than taking your word for it?

I don't do show-n-tell except when I illustrate a point.

As far as "results" go, Odie, I don't give an RA whether you "take my word for it" or not.

Depend on others for valuation of your efforts in this life and you're destined for a life of failure.

 

[odie]

I don't do show-n-tell except when I illustrate a point.

As far as "results" go, Odie, I don't give an RA whether you "take my word for it" or not.

Depend on others for valuation of your efforts in this life and you're destined for a life of failure.

Your response, Mark, is revealing.

I do have a comment about your parting sentence.......The only judge of my artwork that makes any difference to me.......is me. I am happy to show others what I do, for the very reason I mentioned in my previous post. Others judge me and my input by what my results are......the exact same criteria I use to judge the input of others.

As I've mentioned many times before......I participate on these forums for one single purpose, and that is to gain personal insight and knowledge from what others have to offer.......and, combine that with my own testing, evaluation, and application to better my own results. I'd say 99% of the input on these forums do not influence me in the slightest......but the 1% that does, is worth reading a thousand posts to find it! In turn, I am not reserved in giving advice, experiences and insight. Regardless of whether whatever I have to offer is actually used by others.....or not.....makes very little difference to me. That is their choice to make.

My reasons for being here aren't for my own self-esteem, or to be acknowledged within the woodturning community. Very few people here even know my real name........that should be a small, but significant indication of where some (but, not all) of my priorities are.

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

I am too cheap to make a bowl and then cut it in half to see how even the walls are, heck, that is at least a $20 bill. Even if it is ugly, some one will want it. If it cracks, then that is another matter.

robo hippy