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Henrt Taylor "Artisian" vs Hamlet standard M2 bowl gouges

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Seems these post come up ever so often about tool steel, sharpness, honing, etc. usually people post their personal opinion. If you search back over the years you will see where the scientific data has been posted from various "test". What I find amusing is certain people try to justify their tool purchase or lack of purchasing on what they feel must be fact. How could anything be better than what I have is how it usually comes across. Their way must be right or "prove" it isn't. On the sports forums this is referred to as a "troll". Trolling for an argument. Interesting to see it on a woodturning forum other than looking for attention.

Mark, I tend to agree pics of turnings don't really "show" anything anyway. To critique a piece you need to see it in person anyway. Where you get a 360degree view and feel of the piece. A good photographer can make an average piece look extraordinary and a bad photographer can make an extraordinary piece look like firewood.
 
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Odie,

As it seems "judging", whether by you or others, is of some import to you, your response is "telling" (to borrow a word).

There are, of course, vast legions of "judges" on the internet. A very small portion of them may read or, even smaller, participate in this forum.

You are clearly involved with posting pictures of what you make, as you are, naturally, welcome to do. Do you think that such serves as the justification for you to make value judgments of others on this board? You are, indeed, lightening quick to "judge" others who may not share your attitude, or to criticize others who don't share your need to publish what they have made.

Did you not just proceed to denigrate me because I don't play the same show-n-tell game? Where do you get the concept that I, or anyone else who posts here, has to prove something, anything, to this person who anonymously posts messages under the name "Odie?"

Care to share who, aside from yourself, appointed you as critic of others who participate, to one degree or another, on this forum? You choose to post pictures of your bowls. Do not, however, think that entitles you to sit in judgment of the work, let along the comments, of others.

That you choose to hide your identity behind a screen name with no contact information does, indeed give an indication of what you are about. It indicates to me that you don't wish to take personal responsibility for what you say or do here. And you have the temerity to question the veracity of others? Really?

In case you missed it. This forum was established to enable people who share an interest in turning wood on a lathe to share information and knowledge. It's not a contest of some sort, nor are the comments and ideas posted here somehow license for you to cross-examine and question. If you don't like or disagree with what is posted, just ignore it as having no value to you, and move on.

Oh, have a nice day.
 
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You are, of course, correct, Brian. Analyzing a 3-D object from a photograph is largely an exercise in futility. Even without an artful eye behind the lens, cameras distort and gloss over much of the information. Quite impossible to make valuable judgments on craft and finish. Perhaps we should limit ourselves to commenting on the photograph which is, after all, a 2-dimensional "object?" Nah. Wrong forum.;)

In a real sense, a bowl is a bowl is a bowl, and comments run into dry repetition when attempting to raise an issue of significance. The more complex the piece, the easier it is to analyze, as there's more to speak about. But people looking for deeply meaningful comments grounded in aesthetic concepts are most likely to be disappointed on an internet forum.

Perhaps next we'll get into the "my alloy gets sharper that your alloy" (with all the photomicrographs to prove it) rigamarole.

Peace
 
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odie

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I'm sure I'm not the only one who is wondering why some turners on this forum will go through extreme mental gymnastics to keep from showing us their works.......

Sure, photography can make artwork better or worse, but the alternative is to have no visual referance point at all.....not a thing by which to evaluate those words spoken by that person.

I've substituted the word "evaluate", for "judge".....might be better, as there are those who make the word "judge" mean something it was not intended to mean, within the context of how it was used.

I evaluate the words of others, by my perception of their experiences. Without some basis for making that evaluation applicable, it's not possible to rely on the results of that evaluation. Since this is a discussion about woodturning, it's only a natural curiosity to apply the words spoken by the participants of the forum, to the turned works of that person. I expect no less of others when they evaluate my words, so I show them what I do.......not a problem for me at all.:D

ooc
 
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Odie,

In a few posts above, you demonstrated humility when you acknowledged that you often misinterpret what others have written just as others sometimes misinterpret what you have written. You even took some of the blame for others not comprehending your meaning, acknowledging you communication skills aren't always up to their task. I would that you had taken this lesson to heart.

You grossly misread what Mark wrote. You took offense where none was intended. All he said was that, for him, the process of creation is more important than the end result. Why should the expression of that opinion yield disparagement and insult from you? It's a perfectly valid opinion. You seem to hold another opinion than Mark. Fine. I'm sure Mark is okay with your valuing the end result to the exclusion of all else just as you should be alright with him valuing the process more than the end result. So, why respond with anger when Mark expresses a differing view on a matter that, in the end, is nothing more than personal preference?

By the way, I suspect that most of us do not share your view nor do we fulling accept Mark's. We came to turning, in part, because we enjoy the process of making something useful or beautiful with our hands and our mind. If results were all that mattered, wouldn't more of us be investing in computer controlled lathes? Pushing the button on a CNC lathe just wouldn't satisfy in the same way.

Mark's story of how he taught his art students reminded me of something I once heard a classical musician say. There is a famous piece of music for the violin where the musician must execute a very difficult series of moves with his hands, arms, shoulders, the violin, and the bow. Done properly, the music sounds wonderful and the audience's enjoyment is enhanced by the beauty of the movements. The musician went on to say that there is a far simpler way to produce the exact same music from a violin, yet the musician said that way is wrong because it robs the audience of the beauty of the musician's movements -- movements that are almost a dance in their beauty. From Mark's story I took the lesson that sometimes there is a beauty -- a value -- in the way something is done that would be lost in a world filled with star trek replicators.
 

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I'm sure I'm not the only one ........

A search of the forum posts will turn up plenty of hits for people who are having a frustrating time figuring out why they are unable to post images.

I did not find any discussions about ways to not post images. :D (although I suspect that there must be at least fifty ways ...)

You have a number of posts over the past year regarding your rationale for wanting to see other people's turnings. I didn't get the impression that anybody else expressed the same underlying sentiment about why they would be interested in seeing others turnings.

Regardless of whether you are "not the only one" is irrelevant. Express your point of view without invoking a presumed cadre of like minded individuals.
 

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Odie,

In a few posts above, you demonstrated humility when you acknowledged that you often misinterpret what others have written just as others sometimes misinterpret what you have written. You even took some of the blame for others not comprehending your meaning, acknowledging you communication skills aren't always up to their task. I would that you had taken this lesson to heart.

You grossly misread what Mark wrote. You took offense where none was intended. All he said was that, for him, the process of creation is more important than the end result. Why should the expression of that opinion yield disparagement and insult from you? It's a perfectly valid opinion. You seem to hold another opinion than Mark. Fine. I'm sure Mark is okay with your valuing the end result to the exclusion of all else just as you should be alright with him valuing the process more than the end result. So, why respond with anger when Mark expresses a differing view on a matter that, in the end, is nothing more than personal preference?

By the way, I suspect that most of us do not share your view nor do we fulling accept Mark's. We came to turning, in part, because we enjoy the process of making something useful or beautiful with our hands and our mind. If results were all that mattered, wouldn't more of us be investing in computer controlled lathes? Pushing the button on a CNC lathe just wouldn't satisfy in the same way.

Mark's story of how he taught his art students reminded me of something I once heard a classical musician say. There is a famous piece of music for the violin where the musician must execute a very difficult series of moves with his hands, arms, shoulders, the violin, and the bow. Done properly, the music sounds wonderful and the audience's enjoyment is enhanced by the beauty of the movements. The musician went on to say that there is a far simpler way to produce the exact same music from a violin, yet the musician said that way is wrong because it robs the audience of the beauty of the musician's movements -- movements that are almost a dance in their beauty. From Mark's story I took the lesson that sometimes there is a beauty -- a value -- in the way something is done that would be lost in a world filled with star trek replicators.

I am headed for work now......

Just enough time to say you've also done some misinterpreting yourself, David......

No anger.

I understand completely what Mark's points are.

My point is to have a better understanding of the comments others make, it's a valuable component of that understanding to see what their results are.

If the violinist were taken in the same way you present this example, then if the audience were musicians, they should have as much understanding of the music, in seeing him perform with all the movements of his body.......but, without the ability to hear the music.

ooc

BTW: Bill......In some cases, we are not talking about those who can't post photos......a major point is there are those who give advice and won't post photos.
 
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I rough out a lot of bowls for roughoutbowls.com. I can post a picture or two if you want to see that I have good tool control. I don't get much of an opportunity to finish turn these days because of roughing, my contracting business is going good, kids graduating from high school and heading to college and well other life things. Those who have purchased my rough outs say they a gorgeous though.;):D
 

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The thread has taken a turn toward how to share and some noted pictures don't share too well.

AAW clubs, AAW Symposium, AAW regional symposiums, and the Utah Symposium are all about sharing.

At this week's AAW symposium nearly 70 AAW members will be sharing their knowledge and experiences, showing techniques, and demonstrating methods to make objects.
1200-1300 attendees will share over a 1,000 pieces in the instant gallery
26 AAW members will be behind the camera sharing their video skills so the audience can see.
A 100 will be gofor's in chief fetching whatever the demonstrator needs.
A few hundred others behind the scenes have shared their time, bandsaws, drill presses, air compressors, chucks, grinders......
Hundreds of members will share 100s of bowls in the empty bowls. Will Tri-county woodturners give more bowls than the Northeast woodturners????

Regional symposiums offer much the same experience on a smaller scale. I've been fortunate to attend Florida Symposium numerous time, Totally turning, Rocky mountain Symposium, Virginia symposium, and a Maryland symposium. I'm planning on getting to SWAT in 2014. There are many more around the country that offer a great place to learn and share. The UTAH symposium is the only regional I know of that is not directly linked to AAW but most all of the attendees and presenters are AAW members and it's founder, the late Dale Nish, was an AAW founder and honorary life member of AAW.

I've been to about 30 local chapters and they all have sharing events. Show and tells, demonstrations, workshops, mentoring.....

If I'm interested in a Tool or a Technique, I can usually find someone in my chapter who will let me borrow a tool or show me how.

I encourage everyone to get involved with the AAW.
join a chapter, attend a regional, attend the AAW, go to the Utah symposium. The Internet is great but it can't compare to face to face, hand to hand sharing.



Al
 
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I'm sure I'm not the only one who is wondering why some turners on this forum will go through extreme mental gymnastics to keep from showing us their works.......

Sure, photography can make artwork better or worse, but the alternative is to have no visual referance point at all.....not a thing by which to evaluate those words spoken by that person.

I've substituted the word "evaluate", for "judge".....might be better, as there are those who make the word "judge" mean something it was not intended to mean, within the context of how it was used.

I evaluate the words of others, by my perception of their experiences. Without some basis for making that evaluation applicable, it's not possible to rely on the results of that evaluation. Since this is a discussion about woodturning, it's only a natural curiosity to apply the words spoken by the participants of the forum, to the turned works of that person. I expect no less of others when they evaluate my words, so I show them what I do.......not a problem for me at all.:D

ooc

So, Mr. Odie's bottom line here is to see a bowl someone has made in order to "evaluate" the words they write. Object judges literature. Something of a unique concept. Seeing an object that has been made but with a total lack of evidence as to how well or poorly (to some abstract unarticulated standard) the process was handled by the maker through the various stages of the making, somehow leads one to make valid value judgments about the worth of the person who made the object and their opinions. Interesting.

So Odie, what difference do these pictures make for you?
An 18" Ambrisia Maple salad bowl, a 13x24" winged walnut wall piece, a 12" Box Elder ginger jar, a set of maple urns with silver inlay, a 10" spalted black birch jar.

Next post, a portrait bust of Chief Justice Charles Evens Huges, a 3' tableau of Conan the Barbarian commissioned by the producers of the 1st film, and a pas-a-deux in bronze.

Here's a hint: If you think you know anything of substance about me or my work from these pictures, you're delusional.
 

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As for next
 

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Bill Boehme

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Mark, now that I have viewed some tiny pictures of some of your handiwork, in my eyes you are now finally a little bit believable in some areas such as tool steel, wooden handles, hand sanding, and faceplate turning. Until I see a more varied assortment of bowls including natural edge bowls, translucent NIP bowls (lampshades don't count), end grain bowls (HF's don't count), thin bowls, thick bowls, tall bowls shallow bowls, calabash bowls, bowls with ponderous bases, segmented bowls, layered bowls, functional bowls, artistic bowls, overly embellished bowls, and plain-Jane bowls, I can't put too much stock in other areas of interest to bowl turners. Now that you have been enlightened, I am sure that you are more able to appreciate the reason for this cautiousness.

I, on the other hand, am not to be trusted the least little bit. I have handed out "information" like candy on technical topics mostly about power drive systems on lathes based on my supposed expertise in electrical, mechanical, and aerospace engineering, but for all you know until you see a couple bowl photos, I might actually be the guy who empties the wastebaskets in you office and borrows a few office supplies after everybody has left for the day. Until I "bowl up", what I say is just more trash talk. Just sayin' ... if you ain't doin' bowls ... then you know what, dude.
 
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Congrats, Bill! You used the word "bowl" 17 times in a single sentence and didn't misspell it once. Way to turn a phrase, Man!

You've also shattered my record for the most commas in a single sentence. Your expertise is now firmly established, at least in my mind, and I have a better idea of how we managed to get to the Moon.

Power Up, Dude!!
 
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roflmao. I must be very lowly because I am a spindle turner. No bowls to show.:(

Not a problem, Ian, so long as you refrain from giving advice or sharing your experience. Of course you guys who use those skew things are never to be fully trusted.;)

However Mark your last 2 items show that you MUST be infatuated with the naked female form.:D

So, umm, youz mebbie gotta a problum widdat, pallie?:D

PS: Besides, Ian, we must maintain decorum here. The term is "nude", not "naked."
 
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Bill Boehme

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... However Mark your last 2 items show that you MUST be infatuated with the naked female form.:D

So, uh ... what kinds of creative artistic things do our woodturning friends on the other side of the pond think about -- besides proper use of the skew.

And, artistic creativity is not to be confused with infatuation ... obsession perhaps, but not infatuation. ;) And what you see in a piece of art is your personal interpretation, for example woodturning artist Lyle Jameison turns hollowforms. I understand that some folks interpret what they see in his work as something more than that.
 
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Not a problem, Ian, so long as you refrain from giving advice or sharing your experience. Of course you guys who use those skew things are never to be fully trusted. True, It really is the "Black Arts".



So, umm, youz mebbie gotta a problum widdat, pallie? No problem at all. More interesting than bowls.:D

PS: Besides, Ian, we must maintain decorum here. The term is "nude", not "naked."
I stand corrected. Must learn "Art speak" one day.

Fell better now?
Nice piece Mark.

Not that there's anything wrong about that....
Agreed.

So, uh ... what kinds of creative artistic things do our woodturning friends on the other side of the pond think about -- besides proper use of the skew. Pretty much the same as what our Northern friends do. With sometimes the same debate.;)

And, artistic creativity is not to be confused with infatuation ... obsession perhaps, but not infatuation. And what you see in a piece of art is your personal interpretation, for example woodturning artist Lyle Jameison turns hollowforms. I understand that some folks interpret what they see in his work as something more than that.
I must be getting old as I don't try to find hidden meaning in most work.

I admire it for the technique and whether or not the form looks good and has nice balance. Oh no, maybe I have become arty.:eek:;)
 
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I stand corrected. Must learn "Art speak" one day.

Nice piece Mark.

No standing required. One person's naked may work just as well for another's nude.

Thank you. Pleased you enjoyed.

PS: Don't bother with the Art-speak. You'll limit your audience to art history students or dilettante collectors, and isolate yourself from real people. ;)
 
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I actually have enjoyed this thread. Mark, you must be hell in court. Besides that this took a real turn from the original question. My 2c. If I am to get into an issue concerning maker VS. maker it would not hurt to see what each maker makes. But they are only photos. But I do think what you make does give insight into who and what you are. But as far as tool comparison(sp) we all like what we get used to. True some steels hold an edge longer. True the flute shape will have something to do with how the tools will work.
But back to being a maker. Many makers make cause they have no choice. They are driven to make. A day without making leaves a day with a bit left desired to a driven maker. Me included. But the making without a finished making now and again is like trying to take a breath of air when there is none. Not very satisfactory. The act of making itself is the drive. The end result, good bad or indiverent(sp) needs to happen for at least a self completion. A self examination. Being a co creator in the universe. Your making validates the inner God so to speak in every one of us. If you are happy making then getting rid of work you are not a person I can understand. But I am willing to try.
 

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..... If you are happy making then getting rid of work you are not a person I can understand. But I am willing to try.

I got a different message out of his story. The freedom to start over was a powerful illustration to drive home the worth of the creative process to his students. He created the clay vessel, but shouldn't feel compelled to be satisfied when that final part of the process is justified by nothing more than something was made.

I didn't get the impression that he gets his jollies making fancy firewood -- just that he doesn't force himself to become married to a particular piece of wood. Too many woodturners spend too much time salvaging things that shouldn't be. By the way, I am a member in good standing of USA (Unwarranted Salvaging Anonymous). Our motto is "Funnels are bowls, too". Our Mission Statement: "With CA in hand, we can succeed where all the king's horses and men failed."
 
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I actually have enjoyed this thread. Mark, you must be hell in court.
I've won (and lost) my share over the years. This week I "lost" as I was scheduled for trial, the judge declined to adjourn it (so I could go to Tampa), and this morning I get the call that my case has been "bumped" to August because of several criminal cases dropped on the judge's docket before he goes on vacation. Que Sera

Kelly, you raise some very important points, but I have to take care of business so more later. ;)
 
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I got a different message out of his story. The freedom to start over was a powerful illustration to drive home the worth of the creative process to his students. He created the clay vessel, but shouldn't feel compelled to be satisfied when that final part of the process is justified by nothing more than something was made.

BINGO! Give that man the Big Stuffed Tiger from the top shelf!!
 
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If I am to get into an issue concerning maker VS. maker it would not hurt to see what each maker makes.

Hey Kelly,
In a maker vs maker discussion of aesthetics [style, form, etm] I must agree that images can greatly assist if even to a limited degree. But this thread took a turn from comparing tool handles (since M2 steel=M2 steel) to the assertion of some artificial literary touchstone for truth based not upon what is written, but rather upon whether a commenter chose to post pictures of his or her turnings. As if such photos, whatever their quality, in some way confer value on the person posting. However, then denigrating a person who makes comment merely because he/she does NOT post pictures almost to the point of calling the "no-pix" person a liar, that's a "turn" that has no place on this, or any other quality forum.


But I do think what you make does give insight into who and what you are.
One of my pet peeves is people who try to psychoanalyze an artist by what they make. They seem to delight in trying to figure out the maker's libido and sexual preferences as a function of validating their sense of self-importance because they can appear to impress their groupies by explaining some hidden meaning in a piece. Most often it's naught but a Rorschach-based exercise that brings a gem of a joke to mind. If the artist's message is clear, it communicates directly without the mumbo-jumbo of literature being dragged along like tin cans on the wedding limo. If not, we need go no further and just move on to the next piece.


But back to being a maker. Many makers make cause they have no choice. They are driven to make. A day without making leaves a day with a bit left desired to a driven maker. Me included.
TWO GOLD STARS FOR KELLY! That is what its all about for the artist. Formulation of the concept, making the hundreds or thousands of decisions, big and small, made along the way to turning that image, that idea in the mind into a physical reality. It is the conscious and dedicated effort to create that which was not, and, but for the artist and that "drive", will never be.

But the making without a finished making now and again is like trying to take a breath of air when there is none. Not very satisfactory. The act of making itself is the drive. The end result, good bad or indifferent needs to happen for at least a self completion. A self examination. Being a co creator in the universe. Your making validates the inner God
TRUE TRUE TRUE. I was not teaching my students to destroy, I was teaching them the necessity of self-critique and to develop the willingness and ability to step back, see that the workpiece is not worth going further, and to realize that starting over in a new direction holds more likelihood of reaching that goal of "self-completion", of creating something that has acquired the right to exist separate and apart from its creator.

If you are happy making then getting rid of work you are not a person I can understand. But I am willing to try.
Kelly, how many pieces have you made, and how many of them do you still have sitting around you? Trick question.

Every time you sell a turning, you are getting rid of it. You are pushing that teeny tiny bit of yourself out the door, never to be seen again. And the parting is such sweet sorrow, no? I have wrecked any number of sculptures before they were finished. They got to a point when I had to admit that either the idea that spawned them was flawed or my vision was incomplete. I could have beat my head against the block, paralyzed my other efforts, but I took the more productive path. Perhaps I set it aside "for another day/week/month/year." Perhaps I tore it down and recycled the materials for use in something else. Either way, valuable lessons were self-taught and hard-won.

I also taught my students to value the idea more than the object. I did a project with my Art Major students. Having gotten a materials donation from a large company, several thousand square feet of Visqueen and a case of clear tape, we proceeded to design and build three pieces; a 30' tall pyramid, a 20' cube, and a 25' cylinder. They were to be inflated using 20" box fans, and were connected by 3' diameter crawl tunnels. The day came that we set them up in the school's interior quad, and turned on the fans. Anchored to the ground, up they went. And then it happened. The entire school came to a halt! Teachers complaining that their classes were disrupted clogged the intercoms; kids cutting class to try to come out to see and enter the objects. We had a boom box pounding away in one. Well it didn't take long, but the project turned into a full bore total school "happening" with classes making appointments to come down and go through the Thing. Science, literature, math; all the departments wound up using the experience to teach something. Kids debated the shapes and the reasons for doing it at all in the lunchrooms. And then? The fans stopped, the shapes sank to the ground. The plastic gathered, rolled, and was consigned to whatever secondary use could be found for it. Gone. Never to be seen again. But several thousand young people got first hand experience that art need not be made of stone or bronze. It need not last a thousand years. It can be made from gossamer and last but a few hours because the idea and the experience will be carried in their memories from that day on. We created. We destroyed. But only to create again.

Kelly, I'm betting you understand that quite well.

Peace
 
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Mark, even though this thread has really gone sideways I really enjoy makers talking about making. On a forum over time you get to dig into people. Well, I get to dig into people. I do get sideswiped now and again with folks I even deeply admire. But what that does is alter how I interact with a person who I truly value my relationship with.
You brought up points that could be a new thread all together concerning the validity of the person talking so to speak. There are folks I get to know what makes them tick better than what they make.
To your trick question. I have been a full time turner since 89. So I have many many thousands of pieces under my belt. I actually have kept a few. The rest I am thankfull when a work sells. It helps validate me. But mostly it keeps a roof over the family. So I do not see a sold work as destruction but a new begining for the buyer. And I am thrilled they chose to lay out money for my work.
Thats all I can muster this evening. But know I really enjoyed your responce.
Thanks for taking the time to do it.
 

odie

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So, Mr. Odie's bottom line here is to see a bowl someone has made in order to "evaluate" the words they write. Object judges literature. Something of a unique concept. Seeing an object that has been made but with a total lack of evidence as to how well or poorly (to some abstract unarticulated standard) the process was handled by the maker through the various stages of the making, somehow leads one to make valid value judgments about the worth of the person who made the object and their opinions. Interesting.

So Odie, what difference do these pictures make for you?
An 18" Ambrisia Maple salad bowl, a 13x24" winged walnut wall piece, a 12" Box Elder ginger jar, a set of maple urns with silver inlay, a 10" spalted black birch jar.

Next post, a portrait bust of Chief Justice Charles Evens Huges, a 3' tableau of Conan the Barbarian commissioned by the producers of the 1st film, and a pas-a-deux in bronze.

Here's a hint: If you think you know anything of substance about me or my work from these pictures, you're delusional.

Delusional is a matter of opinion, Mark. There is a lot that can be understood about your turning by seeing what you do.......and, thanks for showing us.

I haven't been able to put any time into computer for a couple of days, and what has transpired is very good for thought. This thread was well worth the effort all of us have put into it.....

Bottom line is........and, this is of course, my opinion.....What someone does with their lathe, and the results of that effort, is directly related to what that person expresses in his opinions of tools, procedures, techniques, etc...... You are welcome to disagree with that, and it's your choice. Just be aware that your choice in how you process information may not be the same as someone else's.

ooc
 
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