How about the AAW Mag Cover Picture!!!

[Mr. Don]

Owen Lowe....

Goodness, Mr. Lowe...such comments border on jealousy!!! Do you forget that other turned parts are involved??? The main body... the base... I turned them over and over in my hands thinking "what the heck can I make out of this????" Golly, are you poking fun at a true ARTISTE???? Sir.. that does hurt!!!! Now, go turn a piece of whatever....BTW...wife thanks you for the mirror. Nice work on that.

 

[Jerry Hall]

Thanks Ed, I finally finished my multi axis goblet

for the winter contest. And couldn't have done it without the inspiration from this thread. I still think it needs some shavings hanging from the base, but I didn't want it to be blatantly derivative of your singular piece. I am sticking with my title "Rough and Reddy" This piece, however, was clearly informed by your efforts Ed.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Jerry - That is a heart stopping accomplishment. Words don't exist that would allow me to fully convey my reaction to the metamorphosis that your creation has undergone. Your ability to entice Rough and Reddy to emerge from the cocoon that was Multi Axis Goblet provides a beacon of hope for all ordinary woodturners who aspire to someday leave the slums of woodturning behind and enter the palace of modern wood art.

I'm sure the temptation to knock off a derivative piece was great, but clearly you have benefited from the numerous recurring articles in the AAW journal warning against the evils of plagiarism, copyright violations, piracy, intellectual property theft and anything else that threatens the income streams of the AAW elite. You instead have chosen to blaze your own trail and have not only expanded your personal horizons, but you have pushed the whole form of wood art to a new previously unattained plane of achievement.

Hats off to you Jerry.

That's enough words for now. I'm going to just bask in the glory that is Rough and Reddy for a few minutes...................


Ed

 

[Jerry Hall]

I finally understand woodturning and its strictly

supporting role in the world of art. I am now peacefully and compliantly subordinating myself to the true craft and mission of the wood turner. Our job is in the making of:
- A canvass for painters
- A blank for carvers
- A timesaving headstart for sculptors
- A 3 dimensional sheet for piercers
- Moldings for deconstructionists
- Elements for assemblagers
- A surface for colorists
- A display platform for collectors

And most importantly:
- Noise makers for grandbabies
- Implements that will stick to honey
- Things that spin on the floor
- And stuff that generally keeps us out of the house and out of the way.

Thanks Ed, for revealing the true "suchness" of the wood turner.

Without minimizing in any way your leading role, Ed, I have that wonderful artist Marcel Duchamp, recently selected for creating the modern art work of all time to thank most for my enlightenment. See:
"Duchamp's Urinal Tops Art Survey"

 

[Bill Grumbine]

Without minimizing in any way your leading role, Ed, I have that wonderful artist Marcel Duchamp, recently selected for creating the modern art work of all time to thank most for my enlightenment. See:
"Duchamp's Urinal Tops Art Survey"

Well, he may have influenced many, but now I understand why artists are often so poor they don't have a pot to (ahem) in.

 

[Owen Lowe]

Goodness, Mr. Lowe...such comments border on jealousy!!! Do you forget that other turned parts are involved??? The main body... the base... I turned them over and over in my hands thinking "what the heck can I make out of this????" Golly, are you poking fun at a true ARTISTE???? Sir.. that does hurt!!!! Now, go turn a piece of whatever....BTW...wife thanks you for the mirror. Nice work on that.

Jealousy because YOU won the challenge with that pile of .... ?!?

Glad she likes it. Never turned peach before; hope I can get more someday.

 

[Angelo]

Shipping

Ed,

How would you go about shipping that piece?

A

 

[john lucas]

How would you decide what is the packing and what is the piece.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Ed,

How would you go about shipping that piece?

A

It would be hand carried by private courier, of course. You don't ship a masterpiece of that caliber using a commercial delivery service.

Ed

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

How would you decide what is the packing and what is the piece.

The only packing material that is worthy of being used for this important work are the pelts of baby fur seals. They are white so it would be easy to differentiate them from the art.

Ed

 

[Michael Kuehl]

But the white baby seal fur could be thought to be the "cover of thick white frost" you referred to earlier about another original art work.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

But the white baby seal fur could be thought to be the "cover of thick white frost" you referred to earlier about another original art work.

HHHhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................I think I see where you are going with this. True works of artistic genius that push the creative envelope to the point where it envelops the previously unimagined are often unappreciated in their own time.

Ed

 

[Martin Braun]

Ed - Look like the bodgers beat you to it (sans spray paint):

http://www.bodgers.org.uk/

 

[almather]

I have to say I have put off reading this thread until now. Very enjoyable!

For my 2 cents worth. I like the cover piece, it has artistic appeal, at least to me. However, I side with those of you who question the amount of turning that went into producing this and don't think it falls into the 'turned' category.

On another note, I did not vote for any of the board members this time. I would like to hear, but didn't take time to research or to contact any of them, their position on this issue under discussion.

For my part I am starting to explore a few 'art' pieces, and one will have shavings and parted off pieces, etc. to 'honor' all the wood that played a background role to the final master pieces. If it ever gets finished I'll post it.

For now, I am interested in exploring the shapes that can be made on (using) a lathe. I'd like to see more discussion and how to articles in this direction.

Maybe when I get all the pieces to gather for my a-fore-mentioned art piece, I'll have to color some of my shaving!

Again, I've enjoyed this thread.

Al

 

[John Van Domelen]

I've an idea

Next board election - how bout the mods create an area where direct and to the point questions can be asked - one question per thread, and allow the various board candidates to respond.

Would likely be much more enlightening as to their perspectives on various issues than the canned statements that are published in the mag.

Just a thought...

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Next board election - how bout the mods create an area where direct and to the point questions can be asked - one question per thread, and allow the various board candidates to respond.

Would likely be much more enlightening as to their perspectives on various issues than the canned statements that are published in the mag.

Just a thought...

Sounds like a great value added feature for the members only area. If candidates don't have enough time / interest to anwer questions online during a campaign, maybe they don't have enough time / interest to be a board member.

Ed

 

[Steve Worcester]

Next board election - how bout the mods create an area where direct and to the point questions can be asked - one question per thread, and allow the various board candidates to respond.

Would likely be much more enlightening as to their perspectives on various issues than the canned statements that are published in the mag.

Just a thought...

Interesting concept, but it would be an open forum, not a members only type area as we don't know who are members here and who isn't.

Almost sounds like a real election.

 

[Wilford Bickel]

I really like this idea!! Maybe we could submit the questions some way where the moderators could verify we are members with the office or Resource Guide before allowing them to be posted. Like you are doing with the For Sale area where you have to approve the posting (at least that was the way it ran when I posted down there before the last software change).

 

[Bill Grumbine]

Not to rain on anyone's parade here, but I have followed the advice so often given here and written a board member directly with a concern. So far all I have gotten are platitudes, delays, and circumlocutions that do not deal with the specific issue.

 

[Captain Eddie]

Don't hurt your brain trying to figure these things out. I'm still trying to figure out how Richmond Virginia is in the Southeast. It seems like every city in the southeastern part of this country is more expensive than Richmond VA. That's the reason the board gave for not holding the 2008 convention here. Now they're asking for recommendations for locations for the 2012 or 2013 convention, as long as it's not too expensive.
It's got to be something in the water they serve at the board meetings.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I like it. It is not what I turn, but then what I turn wouldn't be considered art in antibody's circle. It might force some of us to think outside the box -- or maybe not in some cases -- we could just close the lid on the box. It hasn't been that long ago since turning was limited to things like table legs, chair rungs, and treenware -- and if you spent more than a few minutes per turning, then you were a slacker and not carry your share of the load. What if that type of production turning defined all that was still considered acceptable.

.........It's got to be something in the water they serve at the board meetings.

I'm not sure how this drifted off into a discussion about the BOD -- they don't put the magazine together. Being a board member will always be a thankless job -- I can't imagine always pleasing 12,000 members all of the time. Do we want our journal to stretch the envelope or go back to something that looked more like a newsletter in the early days of the journal or be recognized as the innovative journal that it has grown to be.

 

[Bill Grumbine]

Do we want our journal to stretch the envelope or go back to something that looked more like a newsletter in the early days of the journal or be recognized as the innovative journal that it has grown to be.

Bill I don't think there is anything wrong with stretching the envelope and pushing the limits. I do think there is something wrong with the attitude of some that look down on those who aren't interested in stretching that limit. Art and craft can co-exist harmoniously, but it is tough when some artist wannabes look down their long noses at those who appreciate good craft. The reverse is also true, but it seems to me that it is often the first instance that prevails.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I appreciate your honest response, as usual, Bill.

However, my feeling about many of the comments that I see in this thread is that I don't think that any good purpose is served by speculative characterization of others in a manner that is both denigrating and presumptive of their motives. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of that going on in this thread.

And, it probably isn't too nice to refer to an artist wannabe as an "artist wannabe" and insinuate that they have long noses which they look down upon those who appreciate good craft. I am not an artist by anyone's standard, but I would like to have enough talent to be one even in a minor way, so I think that that qualifies me as an "artist wannabe" and let's not even get started about my long nose. But, long nose notwithstanding, I do appreciate good craft.

We are all craftsmen to some extent and at the same time we are artists or wannabes to some degree, if for no other reason than the fact that we take pride in our work and try to put something into it that we feel is a part of our own creativity. Art is a field without bounds and just because someone doesn't get excited about what I like doesn't mean that either of us can proclaim what is or isn't art. If this were the NFL, I suppose that we would constantly be dragging out the chains or asking for a review, but it isn't and it's about time that we get used to the fact that we are not the arbiters of art.

Bill

 

[almather]

Bill, I think your reference to the NFL is good. What if a team or a player started playing another game, in the middle of a football game, other than football. And then suppose the TV and sports broadcasters and refs were to jump on board and start pushing this hybrid game as football.

I have come to appreciate wood sculpturing more as time goes on, and if someone ones to using turning to achieve part of the finish shape, great. But why spend a lot of time, photo space, etc. on work that is not turning, if the organization has in its title "woodturning".

If the organization was 'wood sculpturing' fine.

I actually like the piece on the front much better than I do the one on the back cover. However, I see it as sculpturing rather than turning.

Sure let's see examples, and even an article once and awhile that extents the turning into the realm of sculpturing. But let's emphasis the Turning!

For what its worth - these are my thoughts.

Al

 

[Ron Sardo]

I was going to say out of this conversation, but since I'm a member of AAW (at least until December 31 anyway) I'll add my 2 cents.

I find the piece on the front cover stunning, but would not consider it turning. It fits well with the article "Basic Black", but it wouldn't look good on my mantel.

The piece on the back cover is intriguing, it could almost remind me of an Escher. The form doesn't do anything for me, luckily the way the light plays on the caving saves it. I would sure hate to dust this.

http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW361A.jpg
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW411.jpg
These images are prints from wood cuts

 

[Bill Grumbine]

And, it probably isn't too nice to refer to an artist wannabe as an "artist wannabe" and insinuate that they have long noses which they look down upon those who appreciate good craft. I am not an artist by anyone's standard, but I would like to have enough talent to be one even in a minor way, so I think that that qualifies me as an "artist wannabe" and let's not even get started about my long nose. But, long nose notwithstanding, I do appreciate good craft.

Bill, you make a good point. I need to clarify what I meant. I have never denigrated the efforts of others who aspire to produce art with one exception, and that is the person, or perhaps personality, I was trying to describe. I think every human being is born with the urge to create. Some have it more than others, and some develop that latent ability more than others. But we all have it. In my travels and in my teaching, I see all sorts of levels of creative output. I respect that.

But there is an attitude for which I have no respect and no patience whatsoever, and that is the attitude of those who think that they have arrived, that they are artists, and the rest of us need to bow to their superior judgment, authority, whatever. It is the "I am an artist and you are a proletarian swine" attitude. It is the "I know better and you don't" attitude. It is the pretentious putting on of airs that gets me all wound up and brings out the Grumbine Lampoon. The vast majority of turners I have met, and I have met thousands now, do not have that attitude. But there are always a few.

So please don't think that I look down on anyone's efforts in their turning because they are working to be better and are not where they want to be. I'm in that crowd too.

Bill

 

[waltben]

As someone who's weighed in on previously about the direction AAW is going in (my comment was that we're becoming the American Association of Whatever), I've stayed out of this extremely entertaining thread. I've got to admit though that Chunk really should have been the lead photo for the article and not on the cover. The Journal hasn't had much focus on woodturning (art is more important than turning is the synopsis of the various messages I've received back to my complaints) for some time and I've given up being surprised or upset about what shows up on its cover. I really think there'll soon come a time when the divergence is large enough that some people get together and a 'back to turning' club gets spawned off.

 

[Jerry Hall]

So how would you define woodturning

so that it would encourage the craft, allow for art expression, and lead to continuous growth and creativity? Are criteria possible which allow for exploration that may lead to vibrant enriching outcomes?
- Would a water color exhibit allow oil painting on a thin, nearly invisible wash?
- Would a wood sculpture exhibit allow a carved wood foundation to be covered with embellishment so that the wood was hidden?
- Would any three dimensional piece with the lathe used somewhere no matter how little or evident be OK?
- Would we be satisfied with a definition allowing for any objects that have some evident use of the lathe, no matter how minor?
- Should the material from which it is turned to be a major, evident feature of the piece (grain, original color, form?)
- Should we be "Wood" turners, only?

The art community does set criteria and objectives for exhibits. Is it worth discussing possible criteria?

 

[john lucas]

This reminds me a great deal of the Bent Nail piece by Gary Knox Bennet on the back cover of Fine Woodworking about 20-25 years ago. It got a lot of strong feelings, mostly negative, and few took the time to understand why he did it. I'll bet someone picked up the magazine off the shelf because the piece on the cover raised a question. Maybe they thought, what does this have to do with woodturning but they picked it up notheless. It was eye catching and that's what a cover is supposed to do.
What I find most interesting about publishing this sort of thing is that is produces a lot of discussion. Some like it some don't but we get to hear from both sides.
One thing American Woodturner does for woodturning is discuss all of the things that go on in the world of woodturning. I really enjoy Woodturning, and Woodturing Design but rarely actually read all the how to articles which are 90 percent of the magazine. American woodturner will publish some things that are outside the norm, to get you to think. It's also impossible to put something on the cover that doesn't get a comment. "What is this, a segmented woodturners publication" " are we turners or an Air Brushers organization." " Why do they waste time publishing articles on Pens and Who cares about ornamental turning"

 

[Bill Boehme]

........ But there is an attitude for which I have no respect and no patience whatsoever, and that is the attitude of those who think that they have arrived, that they are artists, and the rest of us need to bow to their superior judgment, authority, whatever. It is the "I am an artist and you are a proletarian swine" attitude. It is the "I know better and you don't" attitude. It is the pretentious putting on of airs that gets me all wound up and brings out the Grumbine Lampoon. The vast majority of turners I have met, and I have met thousands now, do not have that attitude. But there are always a few.........

So, ... what part of proletarian swine are you having trouble understanding?

It's true ... the world is full of prima donnas no matter what the field. However, it may be more a case of perception than actuality in the field of woodturning simply because the art world has more than its share of them. So far, I have not personally encountered anyone (in a live face-to-face meeting) in woodturning (or any other form of wood art/craft) with that type of personality. In fact, I think that someone exhibiting that type of behavior would quickly find himself/herself on the outside of this fraternity with its unique spirit of friendliness and sharing. And, maybe the problem is more with our own attitudes of not being open to ideas that don't mesh with our self-imposed "rules" that we have created in our own minds.

Shifting gears jut a bit -- something strange seems to happen to a few people (not just woodturners) when they get into discussions on Internet forums -- they get transformed into prima donnas -- self-proclaimed experts, woodpile lawyers, sages, soothsayers, and seers. I quit visiting one woodturning related site about six months ago when I dropped in one day and found something like a lynch mob in full swing. It was something that seemed to happen all to frequently there and that's when I decided I had better things to do with my time than waste it there. That's not the case here where the discussions may get lively, but not ugly and that is one of the reasons that I like this site.

 

[robert davis]

Well it is black. And I suppose you could say it is art. It might even be whimsical. I don't think it qualifies as turning. I can't see very well into the red part, bur for all I know, if could have been shaped with a Forstner bit on a drill press. Anyone who knows me even a little bit can probably guess the details of what I think about it.

Write a board member to express an opinion? Waste of electrons. I'm still waiting to hear back from Bill Haskell on the global warming thread. I sent him a private message. I suppose I could have written him directly by using his email in the resource book, but now I am interested to see how often a board member checks into the AAW sponsored forum. After all, if he is so interested in the AAW, this forum is a part of it, right? Of course, the possibility exists that he has been here, and my PM is beneath his notice. But that counts for the same in my book.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add - people are expressing their opinions here again, but it seems like people with different opinions are getting their hackles up at some of the differences. If someone doesn't want opinions expressed about their work, they should keep it in the closet. And, if someone can't stand to read an opposing view, perhaps they should not click on these threads.

Bill

BILL,YOUARE RIGHT ON. the cover belongs somewhere else..aaw has lost it

 

[Ron Sardo]

so that it would encourage the craft, allow for art expression, and lead to continuous growth and creativity? Are criteria possible which allow for exploration that may lead to vibrant enriching outcomes?
- Would a water color exhibit allow oil painting on a thin, nearly invisible wash?
- Would a wood sculpture exhibit allow a carved wood foundation to be covered with embellishment so that the wood was hidden?
- Would any three dimensional piece with the lathe used somewhere no matter how little or evident be OK?
- Would we be satisfied with a definition allowing for any objects that have some evident use of the lathe, no matter how minor?
- Should the material from which it is turned to be a major, evident feature of the piece (grain, original color, form?)
- Should we be "Wood" turners, only?

The art community does set criteria and objectives for exhibits. Is it worth discussing possible criteria?

After reading your header, I wasn't sure if you where talking to me. But I'll answer anyway.

Your question was, "So how would you define woodturning"
My answer, "If it looks like it was turned on a lathe"

Now there is nothing wrong with using a lathe as a tool for wood sculpture. In my opinion the piece on the cover is more wood sculpture than woodturning. Either way it doesn't make it less stunning and I don't expect everyone to agree with my point of view.

 

[robert davis]

As someone who's weighed in on previously about the direction AAW is going in (my comment was that we're becoming the American Association of Whatever), I've stayed out of this extremely entertaining thread. I've got to admit though that Chunk really should have been the lead photo for the article and not on the cover. The Journal hasn't had much focus on woodturning (art is more important than turning is the synopsis of the various messages I've received back to my complaints) for some time and I've given up being surprised or upset about what shows up on its cover. I really think there'll soon come a time when the divergence is large enough that some people get together and a 'back to turning' club gets spawned off.

you have expressed exactly what i have been thinking for a couple of years..the aaw has wandered far away from woodturning..some of the original founders still focus primarily on the lathe .

 

[Bill Boehme]

[zzz] ... [/zzz]

I see the light -- thank goodness.

As our first step in the inquisition to purge ourselves of infidels, we need to toss out those scoundrel "seggies". You know the type -- they like the tablesaw and glue more than they like the lathe. I'll bet that at least 95% of what they do is cut by a saw and they even go so far as to use a ... "gasp" ... belt sander. Heck, all that they do with a lathe is knock the square corners off of their so-called turnings.

OK, next, you guys who have ever turned Corian, plastic, metal, or deer antler -- don't think that we've forgotten about your heinous misdeeds. And, if you happen to be one of those borderline types -- you know who you are -- you start off turning something that looks like it might possibly be a bowl or a platter and then you go artistic on us -- you start carving and before you know it, what once started out with the purity of a bowl, now looks like a pile of leaves - painted even -- or -- you whip out the woodburning pen and and then try to pass off something that looks like a woven Navajo basket as a woodturning, but we know better -- the time you spent turning was but a tiny fraction of the total time you spent burning and painting.

I am glad that I finally woke up and got on board before it was too late to save our beloved craft from the perversions of change.

[blink] .... Mr, Scrooge, wake up, you are having a nightmare ... [/blink]

Wow, that was a scary dream! It even seemed real. Thank goodness that woodturners are an inclusive group.

Bill "Scrooge" Boehme

 

[Steve Worcester]

For many years, I used the lathe as pretty much the only tool to achieve what I was looking for. Then, I looked to the lathe as a a start and end to what I wanted for my results. Then I started burnings, dying, and expanding beyond what I started out to accomplish.

Now the lathe is just one of the tools to get me to where I want to go. I still turn the wood on the lathe, I still think of the process and include the lathe, and I still work with wood, primarily.

But if you look through the journal, you will see a decent balance of the all levels of works. From those that are done only on the lathe to those where the lathe is only a part of the process. The way I view it, is I look and learn. Asking "how did they do that" and if I want to try it, how will I do it. It is part of the mind expansion process.

What would you have picked? I would have gone with "Logger Lager" which I know was turned on the lathe, and when I met Mark Sfirri, I bought it. It sits on the mantle above the fire place. No I am not a collector, per se, but it is a great reminder of thinking differently, and then figuring out how to express that idea. And a great weekend of being Mark's sponsor at the SWAT where he demoed.

As you venture through this vortex, there will be plenty of ideas you will garner from others. Some you will fall in love with, some you will ask, "but why?". Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean someone didn't put some deep emotion into the creation of it. As with the Journals cover, some you will love, and some (obviously this one) you will hate.

 

[S. Clark]

I LOVE IT! It is an excellent example of woodturning’s effect in its simplest form. Remove the hollow and you have nothing. With it, your eye is continually drawn into it. Artistic woodturning is about effect and transferred emotion. Looks to me like it has worked for all of us.

- Scott

 

[Jack Savona]

Stirring up the fire.

NOW I realize I should've painted the bowl red first.

Our Yule bowl.

 

[57_T-Bird]

> What would you have picked?

> What would you have picked?

Interesting question.
And as of Dec. 24, the answer is clear.
The POD would have been on the cover if I'd been Editor:
http://www.aawforum.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4307

T-Bird

 

[Garmar]

Now that's woodturning. Outstanding choice and so appropriate for the winter journal.