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How good are D-Way tools?

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Really good



I needed a taller tool post for my McNaughton Coring gate. Not real tough, just a piece of 1-inch mild steel rod, with section about 1-1/2 inches long turned down to ¾ of an inch.



I don’t have a metal lathe, but I do have a 3-jaw machinist chuck that fits on one of the lathes and some of Dave’s M42 tools.



Well, M42 is used to machine steel….



It took some playing around to find which of the tools I have cut the best. With the approach angle I was using the best tool was the Bottom Feeder gouge. I found this tool, riding the bevel, produced the biggest chips. I also found that the edge lasted about as long (cutting time) as this same edge does turning a bowl.



Now hand turning steel does not produce a finish as nice as you will get from a regular machinist lathe, but with a little time with a file produces an acceptable finish for my needs.
This is also not something I could recommend for the novice turner, maintaining a constant approach angle is critical



But the really impressive part was how well the D-Way tools cut mild steel.

Ralph

(Yes Dave is an old friend of mine)
 

Bill Boehme

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That is good information to store in my memory banks. I have turned aluminum and brass and accidentally turned a bit of steel once. I was turning really close to the jaws on my Talon chuck and then I was closer than close. I found that my Sorby bowl gouge wasn't hurt at all, but the jaws didn't take the meeting very well. Being basically frugal, my solution was to "repair" the jaws using the same bowl gouge by carefully turning away the dig-in and reshape the top of the jaws.

Craft Supplies can provide different length and diameter posts for the McNaughton. I don't think that it is in the catalog, but if you call them they can fix you up.
 
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That is a great tip! Thanks for sharing.

I've been going through a tree that had more than a few nails and screws. Dave's gouges cut nails quite well! :eek:

I even found a drywall screw yesterday while roughing. We all know how hard those are. I figured my gouge edge was already needing a touching up after hitting the screw so I tried gently cutting into the screw some more. It cut. I didn't push it very far, but was surprised how little the gouge edge was chewed up. I could have cut more. The usual quick sharpening on a CBN and it was right back to fresh. Here's what the screw looked like when I pried it out.

I had no idea how tough M42 is. Dave's tools really are the best there is in my experience.

IMG-2305.jpg
 
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Tom-
What shape flute does Dave have? I read on there website that he uses a "parabolic U." Could someone explain this shape a little more? It is a true parabola like Sorby tools?
 
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I have quite a few of Dave's tools; diamond wheels, gouges, beading tools, and scrapers. They are excellent tools that use super steel. But, I have never been able to duplicate my 60 degree Ellsworth grind on his bowl gouge. I know that if I took the time to freehand it without using the jig, I might be able to get it. But freehand sharpening is not my thing. I like my jig for quick and repeatable results (http://www.geigerssolutions.com/Products.html). I usually go through a bunch of sharp tools and put them aside as they dull, and then re-sharpen them all at the same time with some honing in between.
 

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I have quite a few of Dave's tools; diamond wheels, gouges, beading tools, and scrapers. They are excellent tools that use super steel. But, I have never been able to duplicate my 60 degree Ellsworth grind on his bowl gouge. I know that if I took the time to freehand it without using the jig, I might be able to get it. But freehand sharpening is not my thing. I like my jig for quick and repeatable results (http://www.geigerssolutions.com/Products.html). I usually go through a bunch of sharp tools and put them aside as they dull, and then re-sharpen them all at the same time with some honing in between.

Do his bowl gouges have a wide or narrow flute?
 
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Here is the U shaped D-way on the left that I have ground to a bottom feeder gouge which works very well.
On the right is a similarly sized parabolic shaped gouge that is ground to a 60d Ellsworth style.

gouges - 1.jpg
 
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Now I have another question for the gouge heads... what is a V shaped gouge designed for? (Not shown in this photo).
 
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john lucas

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Don't know what it is designed for. The nose is narrower so it reaches into some areas better. I use my V gouge 90% of the time over my U shaped gouge but it's mostly because that's what somehow evolved into. My early gouges were wide U's and had very acute wings. Really good for some pull cuts. My V gouge has thicker wings that hold up better to taking really large push cuts because the wing is really hogging wood.
 
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Someone in the class asked David Ellsworth about the D-way gouge, he said the walls are straight and would produce sharp sides and cut more aggressive. He prefers a parabolic shape throughout. He likes crown because of the flute shape.
 
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Here we go, there is no magical tool or grind! There are preferable tools and grinds. I have had many many named turners through my shop doing hands on and I have never seen one of them tell a student that you need to have the tool I make to be able to make a cut. I have seen these turners take the students gouge and make their regular cuts they do with their own tools that are very cleanly cut. It is not the tool it is the person behind the tool. There are Vs, there are Us and there are parabolic flutes. I use Thompson Vs and his 5/8 V is my go to tool. I mainly use the Vector Grind fixture now but occasionally still use the Wolverine system and with the Wolverine system I still have it setup like Doug uses for sharpening his tools. There are lots of grinds out there, the 40/40, the Ellsworth and etc. There is nothing magical about these grinds you still have to know how to use them. I suggest that you pick a grind and then practice, practice, practice and you will find that you will become a better turner when you have learned how the tool cuts and how to keep it sharp.
 

john lucas

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Well said Bill. That is exactly what I found when I did my skew research as well. It wasn't to tool or the shape of the grind, it's the user. The one you practice with is the one you will be the most comfortable.
 
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I can't argue with any of the above knowledge, and I share the same beliefs. That said, I am most comfortable using the 60d Ellsworth grind on my parabolic bowl gouges, as I have been for many years.
What I was originally pointing out, is that I now have two of Daves gouges that will not grind to the same profile as my others with the same grinding techniques.

And repeating what I originally said, I am sure that there are those of you here who can freehand shape them, but freehand grinding has never been my thing.
 

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I can't argue with any of the above knowledge, and I share the same beliefs. That said, I am most comfortable using the 60d Ellsworth grind on my parabolic bowl gouges, as I have been for many years.
What I was originally pointing out, is that I now have two of Daves gouges that will not grind to the same profile as my others with the same grinding techniques.

And repeating what I originally said, I am sure that there are those of you here who can freehand shape them, but freehand grinding has never been my thing.

The shape of the grind that you get is determined by the shape of the flute whereas the jig only controls the angle on the outside of the round bar. The person doing the grinding also controls the final shape, but you're wasting good steel trying to force an exact Ellsworth shape onto a D-Way gouge.

I agree with Bill Blastic. It's the user and not the tool. Some grinds are more versatile than others, but that's about it.
 
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The shape of the grind that you get is determined by the shape of the flute whereas the jig only controls the angle on the outside of the round bar.

I agree with Bill Blastic. It's the user and not the tool. Some grinds are more versatile than others, but that's about it.

Right, and that's why I can't get the grind I want on Dave's gouge, using my methods---That's all.
 
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I don't think anybody here, unless they are new to turning, thinks there is a magical tool or grind, certainly not Tom. I don't use the V gouge but one of the things I've seen with V shaped gouges is a hook or beak appear just behind the nose. The gouge then becomes vary aggressive and catchy. I've seen it enough to know that it's not just coincidence. It's something that happens to someone not used to sharpening that style of gouge.
Tom, My jigs are locked in, to change the tip geometry from bowl to spindle gouge I change the tip protrusion or a block in the V arm (Wolverine). I have to change my settings when sharpening a V gouge. I don't think you are going to have much luck with the parabolic flute settings on the V gouge. I know you don't like free handing, but you might get as close as you can to what you want and then reset the vari-grind to match. Curious to know, are you are seeing a little "hook" behind the nose?
Best of luck,
c
 
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I think Dave's V is a bit deeper than Doug's. I do have one of Dave's U shaped flutes, and need a lot more time on it. I can get a swept back grind on the D Way tools, but I do every thing free hand on a platform. With a round flute shape, as you roll the tool, you keep pretty much the same roll rate. With the more V shaped tools like Doug and Dave's, you spend a little time on the nose, almost none on the transition, and most of the time on the wing. If you spend too much time on the transition, then you get a dip near the nose.

I don't use the swept back grinds. On the outside, a 45/45 works best for me. According to Stuart Batty, that angle (he uses the 40/40) takes less effort to push through the wood, and that seems to be true. Same with the inside of a bowl, down to the transition area where I use a bottom tool. With the swept back gouges and the 60 degree bevel, I think it may be more efficient to work with the low handle and cutting more with the wings, which works fine on the outside of the bowl, but not so much on the inside. When I try 60 degree bevels for wall cuts, they just don't feel right, even though they used to, and am at a loss to explain it. Part of that may be because I got used to using other tools. They may work fine for roughing, but I prefer scrapers for that. I have been turning some Norway maple lately, and don't like it because it is kind of stringy and difficult to get a clean cut. My standard shear scraping tools do an okay job, but not as good as I want. I tried shear scraping with a swept back D Way, and it seemed to cut better than the burnished burrs on my scrapers. Possibly because of the more acute angles on the wings. I can't think of any other differences that could account for it...

I am still trying to figure out the differences between free hand/platform sharpening and jig sharpening, and Stuart's claims about not being able to get the proper grind on the 40/40 when done in a jig. Not sure I ever heard it explained so that I understand it. Near as I can tell, the wings on jig sharpened gouges are more acute than the ones on hand sharpened gouges...

robo hippy
 

john lucas

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It is very easy to get a dip right past the point on the thompson V gouge. You simply have to lighten up your touch to the stone as you go through that area.
 

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... Curious to know, are you are seeing a little "hook" behind the nose?

More than any other reason, a hook or dip is an indication of over grinding at that spot. The jig only controls the angle that the tool is presented to the grindstone. Of course, you and Tom already know this, but some beginners may not.

I think Dave's V is a bit deeper than Doug's. I do have one of Dave's U shaped flutes, and need a lot more time on it. I can get a swept back grind on the D Way tools, but I do every thing free hand on a platform. With a round flute shape, as you roll the tool, you keep pretty much the same roll rate. With the more V shaped tools like Doug and Dave's, you spend a little time on the nose, almost none on the transition, and most of the time on the wing. If you spend too much time on the transition, then you get a dip near the nose.....

I've decided that I don't like using U and V to describe flute shapes.They're not very accurate, people have a wide range of perceptions of what exactly delineates the difference, and beginners aren't helped. The term parabolic is better, but not necessarily accurate. Unlike a circle, there is no single shape that is a parabola. And, we could just as well use the term ellipse because at the scale that we are dealing with, we would be very hard pressed to measure any difference. It would be reasonably safe to bet that once the flute shape has been ground and polished smooth that it is neither parabolic nor elliptical nor any other named geometric shape. The figure below shows curves that are all parabolas. From this graph, we could almost make an argument tht the broad U shaped flutes could be called parabolic if it weren't for the steep sidewalls.

So, what to call the flute shapes? Maybe use the name of the maker: Sorby, Crown, Hamlet, Thompson, D-Way, etc. But, that doesn't help much if we've never seen the one being discussed. The solution: buy more tools. :D :D

600px-Family_of_parabolas.jpg
 

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Yea I guess nothing fits. Another example. Suppose you have a U shape and 2 gouges are both 1/2". One has a 3/8" flute and one has a 7/8" flute. The nose would be close to the same but the wings would be noticeably different.
 

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You know, I wish I were good enough that a U vs a V groove mattered. I’ve come to think it is more about a repeatability in the sharpening.
 

john lucas

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Yea I switch back and forth between my various U and V shapes trying to learn the differences and really it's pretty minor except for some of the special cuts I use. I love my oldest U shaped no name gouge. I have a long left wing on that one and it's used for special pull cuts. The wings are very thin and have a very acute edge so it cuts really clean with the handle down really low using a pretty extreme angled cut. Then I have a Henry taylor U shaped that I ground to a Stewart Batty Grind. Still trying to figure out why or if that's an advantage. It is ground to Stewart's 40/40 so it cuts really clean but of course you can't do steeper sided bowls with it. It has been good learning to hand sharpen that grind. Hand sharpening improves your fixture sharpening skills. As Bill said the fixture only helps get the shape you still have to control the cuts to get an accurate properly shaped edge. Repeatability is what the fixtures help you get and as you said it's really really important. Repeatability not only improves the edge, it saves metal, and also makes the turner feel more comfortable about finding the bevel. Early on my bevels looked more like a faceted diamond and I always felt like I was searching for the cut. It was probably me more than the edge at that time but after I made my copy of the Wolverine jig my edges were consistent and gave me the confidence to trust the edge and then try to solve the problem of the less than perfect turner. :) I have another U shaped gouge that has a narrower U groove. The wings on that one are much less acute after sharpening and hold an edge longer when roughing.
 
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I have always referred to flute shapes as being more open or closed. I also have never understood the reference to flutes being open or closed when turning as it relates to orientation....

robo hippy
 

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Reed I've just talked to a bunch of turners to find out and the best consensus is a closed flute means the tool isn't cutting. INside a bowl this would be with the flute at 3 oclock and outside with the flute at 9. Of course it will actually cut at these positions if you move the handle out far enough but will be extremely slow. Open flute means rotating the flute up toward the 12 oclock position. Of course if you open too far you get a catch. My friend John Jordan says you just rotate the flute up until you find the sweet spot where it cuts the best. He doesn't use the term open or close. I talked to about 6 other big demonstrators as well as quite a few others and that is the best description I have found. I like John Jordan's best.
 
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Well, I am now more confused. When using my gouges, I am almost always at 3 or 9 o'clock, and they cut fine.... I don't like the wings up because they do like to catch, and I cut more with the nose than the wing...

robo hippy
 

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Are you saying you have the flute pointing directly toward 3 or 9. Yes it will cut but on my gouges the wood is passing the edge almost parallel to the cutting edge so it removes almost no wood or moves very slowly. Open the flute (rotate it so it points up more) and it cuts more rapidly. Still a very shear cut unless you open it a lot. Does that make sense.
 

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Well, I am now more confused. When using my gouges, I am almost always at 3 or 9 o'clock, and they cut fine.... I don't like the wings up because they do like to catch, and I cut more with the nose than the wing...

robo hippy

If you swing the tool handle way out to the right or left then yes you can cut just fine with the flute closed. That is probably why you like turning at the end of the lathe, but that requires a lot more dancing around to keep the handle tucked against your hip.

By rolling the tool from nose to wing you control the cut with less dancing.
 
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Still don't get it. I stand at the end of the lathe so I can keep the tool handle close to my body and not extend my arms like Stuart Batty does. No dancing required.... "I got two left feet and one of my legs is too long" for the Frank Zappa fans... I hold my tools more level, so with the flutes at 3 or 9, then my shear angle at the nose is 70+ degrees if that makes any sense. Oh, the lower wing is actually scraping, and how much wood I can remove depends on horse power more than anything else. I can't rough out nearly as fast with a gouge as I can with a scraper... More because with the scraper never comes off of the wood, compared to gouges where you start at the top, push to the bottom, stop, come back to the top, start again...

robo hippy
 
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Well, I will be in Portland for the Symposium, but have to miss SWAT. They always have it right before Labor Day, and I have an event which will be the 38th annual for about 200 of us that started when we were all young and wanted to camp out, party, and kick the Hacky Sack (footbag to we purists) for the weekend. Now there are kids and grand kids attending. As some one said, it is like a family reunion where every one gets along... Maybe some year.

robo hippy
 
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