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How good are D-Way tools?

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by n7bsn, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. john lucas

    john lucas

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    It is very easy to get a dip right past the point on the thompson V gouge. You simply have to lighten up your touch to the stone as you go through that area.
     
  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    More than any other reason, a hook or dip is an indication of over grinding at that spot. The jig only controls the angle that the tool is presented to the grindstone. Of course, you and Tom already know this, but some beginners may not.

    I've decided that I don't like using U and V to describe flute shapes.They're not very accurate, people have a wide range of perceptions of what exactly delineates the difference, and beginners aren't helped. The term parabolic is better, but not necessarily accurate. Unlike a circle, there is no single shape that is a parabola. And, we could just as well use the term ellipse because at the scale that we are dealing with, we would be very hard pressed to measure any difference. It would be reasonably safe to bet that once the flute shape has been ground and polished smooth that it is neither parabolic nor elliptical nor any other named geometric shape. The figure below shows curves that are all parabolas. From this graph, we could almost make an argument tht the broad U shaped flutes could be called parabolic if it weren't for the steep sidewalls.

    So, what to call the flute shapes? Maybe use the name of the maker: Sorby, Crown, Hamlet, Thompson, D-Way, etc. But, that doesn't help much if we've never seen the one being discussed. The solution: buy more tools. :D :D

    600px-Family_of_parabolas.jpg
     
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  3. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Yea I guess nothing fits. Another example. Suppose you have a U shape and 2 gouges are both 1/2". One has a 3/8" flute and one has a 7/8" flute. The nose would be close to the same but the wings would be noticeably different.
     
  4. RichColvin

    RichColvin

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    You know, I wish I were good enough that a U vs a V groove mattered. I’ve come to think it is more about a repeatability in the sharpening.
     
  5. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    If you're good enough then the difference doesn't matter except in special situations.
     
  6. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Yea I switch back and forth between my various U and V shapes trying to learn the differences and really it's pretty minor except for some of the special cuts I use. I love my oldest U shaped no name gouge. I have a long left wing on that one and it's used for special pull cuts. The wings are very thin and have a very acute edge so it cuts really clean with the handle down really low using a pretty extreme angled cut. Then I have a Henry taylor U shaped that I ground to a Stewart Batty Grind. Still trying to figure out why or if that's an advantage. It is ground to Stewart's 40/40 so it cuts really clean but of course you can't do steeper sided bowls with it. It has been good learning to hand sharpen that grind. Hand sharpening improves your fixture sharpening skills. As Bill said the fixture only helps get the shape you still have to control the cuts to get an accurate properly shaped edge. Repeatability is what the fixtures help you get and as you said it's really really important. Repeatability not only improves the edge, it saves metal, and also makes the turner feel more comfortable about finding the bevel. Early on my bevels looked more like a faceted diamond and I always felt like I was searching for the cut. It was probably me more than the edge at that time but after I made my copy of the Wolverine jig my edges were consistent and gave me the confidence to trust the edge and then try to solve the problem of the less than perfect turner. :) I have another U shaped gouge that has a narrower U groove. The wings on that one are much less acute after sharpening and hold an edge longer when roughing.
     
  7. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    I have always referred to flute shapes as being more open or closed. I also have never understood the reference to flutes being open or closed when turning as it relates to orientation....

    robo hippy
     
  8. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Reed I've just talked to a bunch of turners to find out and the best consensus is a closed flute means the tool isn't cutting. INside a bowl this would be with the flute at 3 oclock and outside with the flute at 9. Of course it will actually cut at these positions if you move the handle out far enough but will be extremely slow. Open flute means rotating the flute up toward the 12 oclock position. Of course if you open too far you get a catch. My friend John Jordan says you just rotate the flute up until you find the sweet spot where it cuts the best. He doesn't use the term open or close. I talked to about 6 other big demonstrators as well as quite a few others and that is the best description I have found. I like John Jordan's best.
     
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  9. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree with John's definitions of open and closed.
     
  10. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Well, I am now more confused. When using my gouges, I am almost always at 3 or 9 o'clock, and they cut fine.... I don't like the wings up because they do like to catch, and I cut more with the nose than the wing...

    robo hippy
     
  11. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Are you saying you have the flute pointing directly toward 3 or 9. Yes it will cut but on my gouges the wood is passing the edge almost parallel to the cutting edge so it removes almost no wood or moves very slowly. Open the flute (rotate it so it points up more) and it cuts more rapidly. Still a very shear cut unless you open it a lot. Does that make sense.
     
  12. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    If you swing the tool handle way out to the right or left then yes you can cut just fine with the flute closed. That is probably why you like turning at the end of the lathe, but that requires a lot more dancing around to keep the handle tucked against your hip.

    By rolling the tool from nose to wing you control the cut with less dancing.
     
  13. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Still don't get it. I stand at the end of the lathe so I can keep the tool handle close to my body and not extend my arms like Stuart Batty does. No dancing required.... "I got two left feet and one of my legs is too long" for the Frank Zappa fans... I hold my tools more level, so with the flutes at 3 or 9, then my shear angle at the nose is 70+ degrees if that makes any sense. Oh, the lower wing is actually scraping, and how much wood I can remove depends on horse power more than anything else. I can't rough out nearly as fast with a gouge as I can with a scraper... More because with the scraper never comes off of the wood, compared to gouges where you start at the top, push to the bottom, stop, come back to the top, start again...

    robo hippy
     
  14. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    You need to high tail it down to Waco, Texas in August for the SWAT symposium. You can teach me how to core with the McNaughton and I can show you what I don't know. :D
     
  15. robo hippy

    robo hippy

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    Well, I will be in Portland for the Symposium, but have to miss SWAT. They always have it right before Labor Day, and I have an event which will be the 38th annual for about 200 of us that started when we were all young and wanted to camp out, party, and kick the Hacky Sack (footbag to we purists) for the weekend. Now there are kids and grand kids attending. As some one said, it is like a family reunion where every one gets along... Maybe some year.

    robo hippy
     

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