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How to quick dry wet Cherry?

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Alcohol drying and Science

I’ve tried to ignore this debate but it seems no one else is going to step in so here goes:

First, I am a scientist. To be more specific, I have a B.S. in Chemistry (University of Wisconsin, 1970) and a Ph.D. in Analytical Chemistry (Michigan State University, 1974). This information is a matter of public record and you can check it if you like. My career was spent in industry so the only things that are a matter of public record are U.S. Patents #5,224,775 and 5,306,406, and possibly the litigation surrounding those patents (U.S. District Court of Delaware, 1998).

The Scientific Method. In twenty words or less: “Experimental observations are a direct measurement of reality. Everything else is derived and extrapolated from this knowledge base.†Those are my words, my interpretation. I’m sure there are others who have said it more succinctly and/or more eloquently. Obviously, there is a lot more to it than this, but this is the core. I have a friend who teaches high school chemistry, and this is one of the principles that he tries to teach. If you want to get more academic, I took a course in the “Philosophy of Natural Science†my senior year at UW. (I needed another 3 non-science credits.)

Probably THE most important criteria for the validity of scientific data is that it be “reproducible by multiple independent experimentersâ€Â. Dave Smith’s original investigation met this criterion.

As a Chemist, I know of nothing that conflicts with Dave’s observations. I mentioned Dave’s method to my Dentist last week and his comment was, “Oh…, yes of course.†From a chemical point of view, it makes perfect sense. Alcohol is very hydroscopic and very mobile. (A standard joke among biologists: “They’ve finally found the active site for alcohol. [The site where it is biologically active.]†“Oh, where?†<Speaker points to mouth.> The key point here is that alcohol acts on the entire system, not on isolated sites.)

As a chemist, alcohol drying makes sense. The alcohol effectively sucks the “free†water out of the wood. (I can provide a non-technical description of this if desired.) Then, since “bound water†is bound only by weak inter-molecular forces instead of stronger chemical bonds, the alcohol extracts some (but not all) of the “bound waterâ€Â. The alcohol evaporates much more quickly than water and leaves the wood in a condition that is very close to “equilibrium moisture†content.

As I said, I’m only a chemist, not a biologist or bio-chemist. There might be something that I’m missing and my views are always open to revision based on current “valid†scientific data (i.e. reputable scientific journals). [Web sites are NOT scientifically valid.]

Moderators: feel free to edit this as needed!

Brian K. Hahn, Ph.D. Analytical Chemistry, Michigan State University, 1974
 
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Open discussion back and forth is healthy. I'm not going to edit or moderate anything unless people start to get vitriolic or call each other names. I mean besides the engineering names list that Mark posted, and most of which described me :) (I liked the one about typing 70 words a minute but can't read your own handwriting - it applies to most of the guys I work with). What we need now is a list of characteristics which apply to woodturners.
 
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Like Brian, I too have a PhD. I studied lots of stuff including chemistry but ended up with a PhD in computer science. One of the discussions I recall about the scientific method was about proof. (Similar to Brian's posting).

In the scientific method, one postulates that something could be true. This is the hypothesis. Then to prove the hypothesis, a number of experiments could be carried out to try and achieve the hypothesis. If one of the experiments worked, then further investigation could be done to hone the methods. If the experiment could be replicated numerous times with the same result, then it provides heavy support for the hypothesis. (i.e. soaking multiple bowls in DNA reduces drying time).

To disprove the hypothesis, similar experiments could be carried out using the same steps. If those steps didn't deliver the same result then these other experiments provide evidence to the contrary; providing the steps were carried out in a careful manner.

The current debate seems to be around:
If a piece is soaked in alcohol, it will dry faster.

To disprove that hypothesis, it should be simple. Turn 10 relatively similar vessels, same wood, same shape, etc. Soak 5 in alcohol. Then dry all 10 of them in paper bags. Weigh them regularly. The alcohol soaked ones should dry faster to support the hypothesis.

I tested a variation of this hypothesis during the summer. The variation was - "soaking in alcohol will kill the varmints". I only used one control piece (unsoaked). But it seems the hypothesis pretty much was proven. It doesn't matter to me if the varmints drank it, or if the alcohol chemically bonded to their squirming bodies. It worked.

Probably the main reason I haven't personally migrated to the alcohol soaking process is that anchorseal waxing is a lot easier for me. Ya just slap some anchorseal on it, stack it (no paper bags), then come back in 6-12 months and return.

(added): Plus I don't have to deal with alcohol laden varmints wandering around in my shop creating havoc. :eek:
 
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Bill Boehme

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Brian Hahn and Jeff Jilg,

You two guys both answered a couple lingering question that I still had. I was reminded of the analysis that showed that a bumble bee can't fly and was thinking if the so-called alcohol drying method achieved the desired results, regardless of whether the technical explanation is perfectly correct, it shouldn't be dismisssed as folly.

Jeff, I have some fresh mesquite in which the borers are making little piles of "corn meal" and I was considering turning to alcohol to find a solution (alcohol for the mesquite --- not me). I thought that I could get the little critters soused and sure enough, Jeff has already conducted experiments that indicate that this may work as long as AA does't start meddling.

Bill
 
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Bill - turning to alcohol to resolve your problems will never work! :) On a more serious note - After multiple soaks, some of the alcohol got pretty thick. I tried straining it through coffee filters and it took forever. Plus it didn't seem to help. I would say that 1.5 gallons pretty much got used up on about every 10 pieces. The pieces were 10-12" dia. It totally nuked the bugs too regardless of soupiness.

I'm still not sure what to do with the remaining alcohol. It's a dark murky thick solution - about 1.5 gallons in a 5 gallon bucket. Maybe I'll just let it evaporate off outsite and then I can wash it out in a month.
 
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Easy answer, gentlemen. Let's not flash diplomas. We all know what the halo effect is, and how important it is to avoid it. Experimentation. To make things as uniform as possible, we'll take, say 1" cubes from consecutive locations on the same piece of wood, soak one, neglect the other, then treat them similarly. This is the method of real scientists, not sheepskin scientists.

I am probably the only one in this group to have performed tests on sample cubes of wood, which demonstrated that neither the dry times nor the distortion differed. Please, give it a try. Or try to refute the evidence submitted by something beyond celebrity. You have to establish whether there really is a dependent variable by controlling the experiment, not just saying my bowls don't break and I soak. The coaters, baggers, kilners, shavings and box people also do just fine. What's common in all the methods is control of RH, and rate of loss.


But, for jollies, ponder:

If the water is "sucked out," where does it go? The correct answer, of course, is nowhere, it merely dilutes the alcohol. But, miraculously, the dilute solution seems to work as well as the non dilute on the next pieces? That's why the people who use alcohol dehydration discard the dilute, and replace it.

If the time of soak and the nature and water saturation of the wood is inconsequential - works same every time - can there really be anything happening?

Or is it just what we do afterward which counts?

I still see no scientific evidence, other than what I have presented, only unsupported asertion. Are we in Kansas?
 
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Ron Sardo

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Brian Hahn said:
The alcohol effectively sucks the “free†water out of the wood. (I can provide a non-technical description of this if desired.)

Thanks Brian,
"sucks the 'free' water out of the wood" is technical enough for me :D
 
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underdog said:
So just wondering what happened with Jwavem's drying/turning project?

I’m completely lost in the technical talk. Here's what I've done so far. I rough turned the outside, than roughed out the inside with the top 2/3 approximately 3/4" thick and the remaining 1/3 about one inch thick. I drilled a 3/8" hole thru the bottom (hoping this will reduce the stress on the thick area. the two pieces will come out of the alcohol soak today after 72 hours. After drying I plan to re drill the bottom hole and plug with a hardwood dowel before finish turning. Don't forget I need the extra weight in the bottom of the finished piece.

Thanks for all the responses (What a great sorce for information).
jwavem
 
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Ron Sardo

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MichaelMouse said:
An engineer is out walking in the park and sees a wild-eyed man hitting a strangely painted block of wood with a stick. The engineer's curiosity gets the better of him, so he asks the wild-eyed man, "Why are you hitting that block?"
The wild-eyed man replies with a bit of a crazed smile, "The sound keeps the elephants away."
The engineer, now fully intrigued, digs deeper, "But why? There are no elephants here."
As the wild-eyed man continues to make his noise with renewed vigor, he says, "See! It's working."

Similar results, less the soak at ~3/4 wall thickness on cherry and maple at my house. Y'think it might be what's common between our two approaches rather than what's different?


This doesn't really prove your point.

To start off, I'm not a wild-eyed man, except of course, when I see a burl.
Secondly, there are no elephants in north east Pennsylvania.
Thirdly, there is an abundance of wild black cherry in my area.



MichaelMouse said:
I am probably the only one in this group to have performed tests on sample cubes of wood, which demonstrated that neither the dry times nor the distortion differed.

Where I think your experimentation is flawed is that you are using little squares of wood. I would suggest instead to try soaking in a full sized, roughed out blanks in DNA. This way you are correctly replicating the same procedure as everyone else.

Also, you are not the only one to experiment on this.
 
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MichaelMouse said:
Easy answer, gentlemen. Let's not flash diplomas. We all know what the halo effect is, and how important it is to avoid it. Experimentation. To make things as uniform as possible, we'll take, say 1" cubes from consecutive locations on the same piece of wood, soak one, neglect the other, then treat them similarly. This is the method of real scientists, not sheepskin scientists.

Are we in Kansas?

1" squares? I suspect such samples will render "data" that are functionally useless as there is not enough of a sample to address the issues raised by turned objects. Do ten identical bowls that are, say, 10" in diameter by 6" deep by 1" thick for your samples from each tree, verify their uniformity as to density and actual water content. Then start your experiment.

As a side note, "Mr. Mouse," you seem to have a fairly consistent propensity to level sarcasm and personal insults at most everyone who tends to refute your positions on any given subject raised on this board, yet you hide both your name and any personal information which might hint at your actual qualifications and knowledge. Over the years that I've participated in internet forums, such conduct has most often been indicative of that personage commonly referred to as an "internet troll." If your contributions are actually made in good faith, you might do well to consider a change in style.
 
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I'm still wondering if there were any live bugs in the 1" squares after they got soaked in alcohol?

For JWavem - I wouldn't have drilled the hole in the bottom. But now that you did drill it, the hardwood dowel will probably work. Once you take the bowls out of the alcohol you probably want to let them air dry outside for a few hours. When I treated the mesquite this summer, I let them air dry for a few hours at the front of the garage (to disperse the fumes outside). Then paper bag the pieces when not wet to the touch.
 
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Jeff Jilg said:
I'm still wondering if there were any live bugs in the 1" squares after they got soaked in alcohol?

For JWavem - I wouldn't have drilled the hole in the bottom. But now that you did drill it, the hardwood dowel will probably work. Once you take the bowls out of the alcohol you probably want to let them air dry outside for a few hours. When I treated the mesquite this summer, I let them air dry for a few hours at the front of the garage (to disperse the fumes outside). Then paper bag the pieces when not wet to the touch.

Jeff
Am I wrong in thinking that drilling a hole thru the bottom will reduce stress and minimaze cracking.
 
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The only reason to drill a hole would be thru the pith if it is on the bottom. Otherwise I'm not sure hole will help anything. The pith (center of the log/branch) tends to be a cracking machine - where small cracks from the pith will radiate out and make larger cracks.
 
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Jeff Jilg said:
The only reason to drill a hole would be thru the pith if it is on the bottom. Otherwise I'm not sure hole will help anything. The pith (center of the log/branch) tends to be a cracking machine - where small cracks from the pith will radiate out and make larger cracks.

There is no pith. I just thought that if hollowing helps prevent cracking a lot a small hole would help a little. Just a thought no science envolved.
jwavem
 
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Ron Sardo

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jwavem said:
There is no pith. I just thought that if hollowing helps prevent cracking a lot a small hole would help a little. Just a thought no science envolved.
jwavem

I wouldn't worry about it, just try not drilling a hole next time and see what happens.
 
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Perhaps it would be useful to look at Dave Smith’s article on alcohol drying at WoodCentral: WoodCentral Articles The article is in the "Turning Tools and Techniques" section near the top of the right hand column of that section. (I tried to link directly to the article, but it didn't fly when I previewed it.)

My interpretation of Dave’s article is that it is a method for quickly drying bowls with minimum loss from checking and cracking. I haven’t tried alcohol drying yet, so I can’t comment on it from personal experience.

Michael, I agree that it is nice to understand how and why the process works. My problem is that I can think of a lot of possibilities and I don’t know enough about plant biology to know which ideas are reasonable and which ones aren’t even in the ball park. BTW, my favorite misconception is that electronic devices work because they contain a magic smoke. (The device doesn’t work after the smoke escapes!)
 
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I second that one... Ya'll know I let the smoke out of the little capacitor on my friends Jet mini lathe... and you know what? It didn't work anymore.

I wonder who puts the smoke in the electronics? :p

Seriously I would like to know how this alcohol drying works also.

Keep us posted on how you're doing with your project.
 
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Brian Hahn said:
Michael, I agree that it is nice to understand how and why the process works. My problem is that I can think of a lot of possibilities and I don’t know enough about plant biology to know which ideas are reasonable and which ones aren’t even in the ball park.

Well, if you've read what I've referenced here, you know two things which certainly do not take place, regardless the speculation in the original article.

Alcohol and water mix in all proportions, so there's no water removal except in conjunction with alcohol removal, and as Raoult's law indicates, as the solution of alcohol and water are diluted by the atmosphere they leave in proportion to their partial pressures, so no extra speed there.

As I said early in the thread, I believe that the method "works" because it would work without the soak. Has for years and years, and follows the principles of wood drying technology which the folks in Madison have been kind enough to provide for us, free of charge.

For those who want to try and tread that fine line between drying speed and mildew on one end of the spectrum, and checking on the other, get a humidity gage. Simple hygrometer will let you know what's going on that you can't change - the atmospheric moisture - and allow you to compensate by various levels of cover from nothing to wax or plastic bags to get what you want.

For that method we have the answers.
 
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Micheal, I've looked at all your links and they tell me nothing that I didn't already know. R. Bruce Hoadley's books are another good source of information, but again they don't get into the detail I would need. Then again, this issue is not one of my top priorities.
 
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killing varmints with alcohol

Late on this thread- I have been on vacation. My firewood which comes in 8 ft log lengths originated in mid northern Michigan. Supposedly cut in Jan 05. I got 10/05. The first piece of maple had beetle tracks and I was eccstactic. One piece for firewood, 3 pieces for Gretch!!! I green turned a small thin bowl, and 2 days later when picking it up, 2 live bodies were wiggling (1/8+ inch long) under the base. I scotch taped them, and every day or 2 would snag a couple-went on for 8-10 days. I could even hear them chewing down my bedroom oak door at nite!!! :D .According to a web site, the ambrosia beetle (I assume that is what they are, altho the color they leave is just the track and little expansion of color), dies when the wood dries-(the fungus dries leaving them without food.) and dies if the wood isn't quite wet.-this wood was cut 10 months before.
Thanks to this forum I have tried the alcohol bath to minimize cracking of black oak (still got cracks), and to get more "instant gratification" than waiting 1 year(have a moisture meter and it takes one to 4 weeks of 3/4 inch thick wood and DEFINITELY hastens the drying time-10 inch cherry bowl rough turned to 3/4 inch took about 16-18 days, bk oak took 4+weeks).
So I thought the alcohol drying should kill the beasts. I tried 3 bowls, about 8 inch across and 5/8 thick. In 2 days, I saw black saw dust, and then the bodies fell out over 10 days -mostly dead, or at least blind so they couldn't find the bedroom door :D . In other words, I don't think DNA did anything to hasten their demise. I think the physical drying did them in just like the first small bowl I turned without alcohol. Another blank I bandsawed but left on the work bench unturned had about 20 critters-a few alive- under the base when I lifted it up 2-3 weeks later. Does anybody have thoughts about this??would hate to give/sell a piece than wiggles. :rolleyes: Gretch
 
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What a splendid and entertaining thread! What I can't find is/are some data on measurements/dimensions of work pieces or samples immediately before and immediately after the alcohol immersion. Did they shrink, expand, distort, or do nothing DURING the immersion? Obviously the alcohol "dilutes" whatever water it reaches, in the direction of mostly alcohol and not much water. And when you take it out, the resulting alcohol/water content evaporates more quickly than if it were all water. No rocket surgery there. I think Michael explained all that. But what does the wood actually DO, if anything, while it is submerged in booze?
 
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