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"I's had enough and enough is too much!"

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Reed's a Good Guy and I applaud his effort. My turning "style" is similar in that I turn on a short-bed lathe, and can, most often, be found working from the end. But . . .

I ALWAYS wear some form of face and eye protection, even when sanding. ALL . . .WAYS!!!

That said, the attached is hung on the wall near my lathe. It's held together with CA and tape. It made really impressive dents in an HVAC duct when it "exploded."
 

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No face shield? :confused:

He's not telling you not to wear one, just stating that it's often more trouble wearing one with distortion and dust-dimming than it's worth. The way I turn, shavings don't make it above the xiphoid, so I'm more likely to get in trouble trying to grab at one slipping than going without.

What he says is first work out of the zone, second turn at modest rpm, and third is to don your method of protection for those times you may forget.
 

Bill Boehme

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.... That said, the attached is hung on the wall near my lathe. It's held together with CA and tape. It made really impressive dents in an HVAC duct when it "exploded."

That will suffice as a picture of a plain-Jane bowl (unless you want to play the art-card). One down, fourteen to go. :D Glad that you are finally on board with showing your stuff.
 
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safety

Hi,

One more thought on safety - Powermatic (and perhaps other lathes) come with a "cage" or guard, are these known to catch stuff that comes off the lathe?

Herb
 

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Hi,

One more thought on safety - Powermatic (and perhaps other lathes) come with a "cage" or guard, are these known to catch stuff that comes off the lathe?

Herb

Herb, I would call it a guard or shield and not a cage because it doesn't contain nor catch anything, but it will deflect things that are headed towards your head or upper body. I don't know what Powermatic or Jet calls it.

I think that it is the same mentality at work that was so prevalent back in the mid sixties when seat belts were first introduced. The mythical line of fire ought to be more appropriately referred to as the zone of highest probability of being injured, but there is no hard dividing line between safe and unsafe nor any working area for the turner with zero probability of being hit.

If you make it a practice of standing where the probability of getting hit is very low, I don't see how the guard presents much of an obstruction to using tools or seeing the turning except that it could stand to be a bit shorter for faceplate turning or if a very large diameter piece is being turned. It is more likely to be a visual obstruction if standing in that mythical line of fire. I don't see a problem with standing anywhere when spindle turning.
 
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Hi,

One more thought on safety - Powermatic (and perhaps other lathes) come with a "cage" or guard, are these known to catch stuff that comes off the lathe?

Sure they will. Stuff "comes off" because it's flung or because it's pushed. While a crack on the knuckles or a thump on the thigh is no fun, we really worry about head/chest, so the cage only needs to cover above center - the dangerous part of the throw zone.

Depending on how you present your tools, it's certainly enough to use the cage. It'll do more for you than that catcher's mask. The old ones with the plexiglass windows were, however prone to get messed up beyond use when turning wet wood, or attract dust when sanding, like a face shield.

How many people use them? Betting a poll would show a percentage lower than the number who use the guard on their tablesaw. Inconvenient.
 
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I stand out of the line of fire but still use my uvex face shield. thanks Robo hope Reed had a good day out. stay safe out there around 5 turners have been killed in the last 4 years think about that as you walk to the shed.

Ian
 

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I have been contemplating a post in this thread for a few days. I haven't been sure of how to say what I have to say, without avoiding confrontation. I don't think that's possible.....so here goes!

It's obvious there are those who feel safety, as considered in the absolute form, is more important than results. I have no issue with how anyone else views safety concerns, but as considered in how it applies to my turning, then I see things differently than some others will.

Yes, absolutely, safety is something that should always be considered.......however, there are grey areas between absolute safety, reasonable safety, and a disregard for safety. The level of experience also makes those separations between safety risks not the same for all turners. If the resulting objective is less important than absolute safety, then there is a point where one person would consider another person's safety practices as an unreasonable risk.

"Line of fire" seems to be the main issue here (there are others), and there are times when that absolute is crossed when tool control is compromised otherwise. At these times, those of us who value the objective with equal influence as safety, there will be compromises. This is not to say any compromise is in disregard of safety......it just means that safety is approached from another perspective. These are the times when I have other means of decreasing the safety risks.....a protective mask.

On the other side of the spectrum, Robo doesn't seem to think a face shield is an absolute necessity for turning in the manner I saw in his video. I do.

ooc
 

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Sure they will. Stuff "comes off" because it's flung or because it's pushed. While a crack on the knuckles or a thump on the thigh is no fun, we really worry about head/chest, so the cage only needs to cover above center - the dangerous part of the throw zone.

Depending on how you present your tools, it's certainly enough to use the cage. It'll do more for you than that catcher's mask. The old ones with the plexiglass windows were, however prone to get messed up beyond use when turning wet wood, or attract dust when sanding, like a face shield.

How many people use them? Betting a poll would show a percentage lower than the number who use the guard on their tablesaw. Inconvenient.

I do! Not all the time or even often. But when I feel that there might be a possibility of a problem I do. Attached is a picture of a log that I used it on and was glad I did even though nothing happened. When I started turning it looked like just a small spot on the end that had a bark inclusion. When I stopped the lathe to check it out I was surprised at what I saw. It has opened up more in the last week of sitting outside.

I also use a face shield, safety glasses, keep the speed down and try to stay 'out of the line of fire'.

I read (probably this thread) about being hit with bark and thought that shouldn't be much of a problem. Then yesterday while making a 14" natural edge bowl I stopped the lathe for something and noticed some separation between the bark and the wood. I reached down and lifted the bark off of the log. The whole half_side came off! The other side was more secure. I think it might have something to do from falling in a storm. Anyway that big of a piece of bark probably would leave a mark if it hit you! :D
 

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odie

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I do! Not all the time or even often. But when I feel that there might be a possibility of a problem I do.

If I had a cage like those supplied with the Powermatic, there are times when I would certainly use it.

The Powermatic cage has been discussed on several occasions. From what I gather, most turners leave them off. They are not convenient to remove and install, and are in the way when flipped over, and not actually being used.

The Powermatic cage is actually a very good idea, but it's designed for the needs of the manufacturer, and not really taking the needs of serious lathe turners in priority. The original requirement was for sales to schools, I've heard. I don't believe there are many, if any schools anymore that have woodworking lathes. Wood lathe turning is now more of a specialized tool, and has a very limited industrial application anymore.

I'd be interested in having a lathe cage, if it was easy to install, and could be removed completely, and easily......and, wasn't such a cumbersome thing to find a place to put it.

Now, if some enterprising person were to put the effort into designing and manufacturing a lathe cage that would have prospect of success.......he should think about something that is light, easily folds up for compactness, and might attach to the bedways, or floor mounted, or:confused:. That way, it would be saleable to anyone with any lathe, who wanted it. I think I'd buy something like that.:D:cool2::D

ooc
 

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.... Now, if some enterprising person were to put the effort into designing and manufacturing a lathe cage that would have prospect of success .......he should think about something that is light, easily folds up for compactness, and might attach to the bedways, or floor mounted, or :confused:. That way, it would be saleable to anyone with any lathe, who wanted it. I think I'd buy something like that.:D:cool2::D

I think that the restrictions that you placed on the design just about killed any prospect of success. For example, you can buy a tripod for your camera for $29.95, but you may find it severely lacking in things that you would like a tripod to do. You can also spend well over three thousand dollars for a tripod that does everything that you could ask for including fixing meals and vacuuming the carpet. When I bought my latest tripod, neither extreme was appealing, but for entirely different reasons. I concluded that something a bit below middle ground, price-wise, and above middle, feature-wise, suited me just fine -- it is lightweight, folds up compactly, adequate sturdiness, and not likely to topple over in a breeze. I expect that you would have to pay at least as much for a lathe shield that meets your set of requirements. Just think about how expensive things related to turning have gotten in the last few years. I paid about $28 for a Vari-Grind about 8 years ago. I was looking at a catalog yesterday and saw the price was around $53. I won't even bother mentioning the price of lathes.
 
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Bill Boehme

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.... I haven't been sure of how to say what I have to say, without avoiding confrontation. I don't think that's possible.....so here goes! ...

Let 'er rip, Odie -- you know we're with you, bud ... at least through the first paragraph. :D

Actually, I am still trying to figure out how to disagree with you, but I'll keep working on it so that you won't be disappointed. ;)
 
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If I had a cage like those supplied with the Powermatic, there are times when I would certainly use it.

The Powermatic cage has been discussed on several occasions. From what I gather, most turners leave them off. They are not convenient to remove and install, and are in the way when flipped over, and not actually being used.


ooc

From what I've heard I'm sure you're right about most turners leaving them off. I usually leave mine on to hold a dust collection hood. However, when I do take it off, the most work is removing my hood. Maybe they are made different now to make them more convenient. Mine you just pull a pin up to change the detent position or to slide it off. It came with a collar with a set screw but I didn't see a need to put it on, hasn't been a problem so far.
 
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odie

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Let 'er rip, Odie -- you know we're with you, bud ... at least through the first paragraph. :D

Actually, I am still trying to figure out how to disagree with you, but I'll keep working on it so that you won't be disappointed. ;)

:D Heh,heh,heh........I think you are one that will allow a difference of opinion, as long as you are allowed yours. This is basically what I try to do, as well. (Well......to a certain point, and that point was breached with the lack of face protection)

Robo seemed so sure of his beliefs, and it appeared as if he was indicating those who don't have the same opinions as he does regarding "line of fire", are just wrong. One thing that has been good for me in my participation in these forums, is to see that most/many things are not a right vs wrong thing......simply a matter of individual perspective.

That which gave me pause in replying to Robo's thread, is to do it without implying his viewpoint about LOF was invalid, as it applies to his turning......allowing him his "space", as well as having mine. :D

ooc
 

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:D Heh,heh,heh........I think you are one that will allow a difference of opinion, as long as you are allowed yours. This is basically what I try to do, as well. (Well......to a certain point, and that point was breached with the lack of face protection)

Robo seemed so sure of his beliefs, and it appeared as if he was indicating those who don't have the same opinions as he does regarding "line of fire", are just wrong. One thing that has been good for me in my participation in these forums, is to see that most/many things are not a right vs wrong thing......simply a matter of individual perspective.

That which gave me pause in replying to Robo's thread, is to do it without implying his viewpoint about LOF was invalid, as it applies to his turning......allowing him his "space", as well as having mine. :D

ooc

In watching and listening to his video and reading his words, My impression is that his point of view is rooted in genuine concern and not some authoritarian need to be "right". Whether referring to Reed, me, or yourself, what we believe to be true is "right" in the eyes of the person holding the perspective. While you may feel that a point of view different from yours is "wrong", that is your prerogative.

I don't expect anybody else to "whole hog" buy into my ideas on everything, just I have not met anybody yet where I agree 100% with everything that they believe. Celebrate our differences. That's the way we learn.

BTW, I can't remember if he was fer or agin face protection, but i still learned from what he said. Basically, I am "fer" face protection, as ugly as my mug might be.
 
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If a piece flies off and there's nobody there, does it still do damage?


Used to distinguish between harmful things prevented by procedure or by physical means back when. What you didn't do could not cause a problem.
 
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MM,

I guess after seeing many people post pictures of there walls or light fixtures ruined I would have to answer your question as yes it still does damage. I believe however that you were being a bit facetious and condescending with your reply. On Saturday I roughed out the exterior of a couple of dozen bowl blanks. I turn left handed when roughing so I am well out of the line of fire. Depending on the size of blanks I am turning at speeds of 150 rpm to 700 rpm depending on bowl size and how true the blank is. On three occasions there was a loud ping on my face shield. One sounded like it would have hit me in the neck the other two sounded as though they would have hit me in the forehead somewhere. On all three occasions I stopped the lathe to inspect the blank to see what was causing this since these blanks had no bark on them (14" to 16" size). There were no signs of chunks out or knots or inclusions or wind/ring shank or anything for that matter. My point is I would not have wanted those pings to have hit me above the shoulders (or anywhere for that matter). I have no doubt that they would have done minor damage but I also have no doubt they would have stung. I cannot be sure how they pinged me but they did and my face was at least 12" to 24" behind the line. When something is spinning whether on a wood lathe or something else you cannot be 100% sure what direction an object is going to travel once it releases from the spinning object. All you need to look at is a baseball. Once it leaves the pitchers hand the spin of the ball determines whether it goes up, down, in or out. Be careful out there and where your face shield.
 
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The point of me making this clip was because after the last few accidents, the main focus of the forum discussions, on any of the forums was about bigger and better head protection rather than placing your head in a MUCH LESS DANGEROUS place. Can you think of any demonstrator who really emphasizes this point? Can you think of any demonstrator or teacher who shows how to cut and stay out of the line of fire? Now that I bought this up, you will all be watching demonstrators to see if they are in the line of fire won't you. You will also have it in the back of your mind just about every time you turn on your lathe won't you. If this point continues to be pounded into our hard heads, there will be fewer serious accidents. Just stepping into an emergency room is worth a couple of new chucks. If they have to do anything, it is at least a big step up in your lathe, or even a new shop. Think about it!

Dale, I can't figure out how you can get hit by fair sized chunks that at least sting a bit. Only time that has happened to me has been with bark. Maybe it is because I use scrapers, and shaving deflection and maybe chunk deflection is different depending on the tool. I may have to go back east to the Rocky Mountain Symposium some time.

robo hippy
 
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MM,

I guess after seeing many people post pictures of there walls or light fixtures ruined I would have to answer your question as yes it still does damage. I believe however that you were being a bit facetious and condescending with your reply. On Saturday I roughed out the exterior of a couple of dozen bowl blanks. I turn left handed when roughing so I am well out of the line of fire. Depending on the size of blanks I am turning at speeds of 150 rpm to 700 rpm depending on bowl size and how true the blank is. On three occasions there was a loud ping on my face shield. One sounded like it would have hit me in the neck the other two sounded as though they would have hit me in the forehead somewhere. On all three occasions I stopped the lathe to inspect the blank to see what was causing this since these blanks had no bark on them (14" to 16" size). There were no signs of chunks out or knots or inclusions or wind/ring shank or anything for that matter. My point is I would not have wanted those pings to have hit me above the shoulders (or anywhere for that matter). I have no doubt that they would have done minor damage but I also have no doubt they would have stung. I cannot be sure how they pinged me but they did and my face was at least 12" to 24" behind the line.

Time to reconsider your presentation. Line of fire refers not only to the piece, but what you're removing from it. I've become lazy, so when I'm roughing I shoot the shavings into a leaf bag on the floor. To give an analysis of your technique without actually seeing it isn't really possible, but the fact that you were whacking randomly on the piece and sending things flying rather than pushing the shavings down and away says you might want to raise the rest and roll the flute of the gouge outboard a bit.

One other thought - start out at the widest part of the turning. Not only does it balance fastest that way, you don't have lumps to kick stuff you're pushing in that direction back up at you after the first swing or two.
 

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MM,

I guess after seeing many people post pictures of there walls or light fixtures ruined I would have to answer your question as yes it still does damage. I believe however that you were being a bit facetious and condescending with your reply. On Saturday I roughed out the exterior of a couple of dozen bowl blanks. I turn left handed when roughing so I am well out of the line of fire. Depending on the size of blanks I am turning at speeds of 150 rpm to 700 rpm depending on bowl size and how true the blank is. On three occasions there was a loud ping on my face shield. One sounded like it would have hit me in the neck the other two sounded as though they would have hit me in the forehead somewhere. On all three occasions I stopped the lathe to inspect the blank to see what was causing this since these blanks had no bark on them (14" to 16" size). There were no signs of chunks out or knots or inclusions or wind/ring shank or anything for that matter. My point is I would not have wanted those pings to have hit me above the shoulders (or anywhere for that matter). I have no doubt that they would have done minor damage but I also have no doubt they would have stung. I cannot be sure how they pinged me but they did and my face was at least 12" to 24" behind the line. When something is spinning whether on a wood lathe or something else you cannot be 100% sure what direction an object is going to travel once it releases from the spinning object. All you need to look at is a baseball. Once it leaves the pitchers hand the spin of the ball determines whether it goes up, down, in or out. Be careful out there and where your face shield.


Dale,
Do you know what cause the chunks?

I use a side ground gouge roughing and used properly there should be nothing but big honking shavings coming off. With the possible exception of some burls where pieces break off when undercut.

Possible causes for chunks
1.Once in a great while I fail to come out into air when rounding the corner of the blank. This builds up a ridge of undercut wood. It is pretty hard to see with the spinning wood. If I hit this with the tool it can break off a chunk.
Going out into air prevents this. This is more common with a chainsaws blank that has 8 corners. Cut through into air on seven and if feels like 8 and eventually that 8th corner will break off. This can also be an issue with something like a big leaf maple burl. All these little things sticking up and in the roughing process you under cut them.
And sometimes I make a conscious decision to let the little bits fly.

issues i see with some students are
2. Having the flute pointing up too much and the handle too low. Their roughing is sort of a controlled catch method breaking off chunks. I use the tool with the handle nearly parallel to the floor and flute between 0 and 45 with 90 being straight up.
3. Letting the tool advance over the tool rest in the interrupted cut on a half log blank. This creates a bounce in the tool creating an out of control movement and often there are mini-catches associated with this. The front hand has the job of not letting the tool go over the tool rest unintentionally as does the body position with the tool held into the side.

On big blanks I start with an "A Frame" roughing cut Christian Burchard taught me. Front arm straight. End of the handle held at the top of the thigh. Turn the body pivot the tool at the front hand. Makes clean cove cut. I usually have my front hand open on top of the tool thumb and forefinger on the tool rest. Once you learn it is is sweet roughing cut. No bounce. I also can walk this cut along the bowl a little bit too. This cut results in a cove so I use just for the corners unless I want a trumpet shaped bowl.
I show this roughing cut a lot in demos but it is not too impressive on demo sized blanks

I wear a face shield!
Have fun,
Al
 
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Robo,

Please come out I would love to meet you and have a cup of coffee (I am totally serious, I am offering you to stay at my place). I am as baffled as you are on what was pinging me. When there is no sign of a chipped out piece from whacking like MM says or anything else unusual it is hard to tell. If a person could find what pinged them then you could probably figure out what was happening. But as we know it is impossible to say it was this ribbon or ?

MM,

I have roughed turned a lot of bowls. My technique is sound no whacking here. I use a push cut on all my roughing whether using a roughing cut or slicing cut. When cutting this way I can stand back as far as my arms, gouge, 21" handle and body will allow me to. Your mention of staying on the widest area for a couple of passes. I my opinion this is a bad idea unless you are referring to where the tail stock is and out. If you are referring to the edge that was band sawed then you are putting yourself closer and arms into the line of fire when the blank is at its most out of balance. If you bandsaw the blank properly you don't have any lumps. You should start on the corner of the blank nearest you and slice it off. Keep going in this manner until you can take a slice all the way to the rim. Then start forming the bowl. I don't use a garbage can since I generate pickup loads of chips when production rough turning. I intentionally send the chips where I want to stack them until I get my run done. Then I clean them up and set up to do the inside or coring. Sometimes I can't clean up right away since my truck may be full of job site debris. I mention this because I use a push cut from the outer rim to the tail stock to flatten it before starting to core. I do this so I can stack the chips at the end of my lathe because there is not enough room behind me where I stacked the chips from roughing the outside. I only bring this up because most of your responses are based solely on how you turn and everyone else should take heed. I have told you this before and it is worth repeating, there are many ways to do things correctly. Production turning, professional turning and hobby tuning are all related but within each area there are differences as well. The most basic example is you dropping chips into a garbage can, works for you great, but watch Glenn Lucas, he stacks chips into a dumpster as he turns which means having them fly. He may have chips flying which in so many of your posts you have said if your chips are flying your cutting wrong. I am sure Glenn would bury you in his techniques and surface finish off the gouge not to mention quantity turned in a day. Someday I hope you can open your mind to learn as much as you teach.

I so often hear that a face shield is the last line of defense, maybe so. It was the first line of defense when whatever it was that pinged me, three times. Besides, why for safety purposes would you disregard any line of defense. It is probably the cheapest and yet very effective way to help protect yourself. Robo did a nice job on the video displaying his intent on the line of fire. I commend him for that. I just wished he would have taken it a step further and showed all the lines of defense. He would have taken a good video to a great video level for everyone to reference.
 

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Robo,

as baffled as you are on what was pinging me. When there is no sign of a chipped out piece from whacking like MM says or anything else unusual it is hard to tell. If a person could find what pinged them then you could probably figure out

I so often hear that a face shield is the last line of defense, maybe so. It was the first line of defense when whatever it was that pinged me, three times. Besides, why for safety purposes would you disregard any line of defense. It is probably the cheapest and yet very effective way to help protect yourself. Robo did a nice job on the video displaying his intent on the line of fire. I commend him for that. I just wished he would have taken it a step further and showed all the lines of defense. He would have taken a good video to a great video level for everyone to reference.

Dale,
Sure it was wood pinging?

Stones, insect larva other foreign material?

I still think undercutting a corner a bit is most likely. There would be nothing to see as you made a clean cut underneath.
And it's a thing that happens to me if I have one of those in attentive moments and don't cut into air on a pass or two.

I am a pretty fast turner but I get wowed! By Glenn Lucas,

Al
 
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Folks, you can only be so safe. Knock on wood that I wont get whacked again. Having a work explode and lucky my wife walked away from her lathe as it would have hurt or killed her. A chunk went past where she had been standing and knocked a door right off its hinges. The time I was hit it knocked me in the chest and on the floor before I could blink. Black and blue for weeks. I now am more careful with slower speeds. Its now my daughter who could be in the line of fire so I do other things or something else till she leaves. My lathe is cast in concrete or I would move it. She is heading off to college soon. If she were staying I have thought about a plywood shield to hang in the fire zone. I get hit by little pieces of stuff all the time. I always have my air helmet on. wear a leather glove on my left hand when roughing. Those chips hurt. And wear a long sleeved shirt when roughing. Keeps the nasty stuff off my arms. Wet chips and bug parts. Yuck. And some saps dont treat skin so well. I keep a wet cloth and a dry one for my faceshield. I can only use my hand to deflect so much.
I do a lot of roughout with pieces that still have bark. Low speed to start while standing out of the way. If a screwdriver will pry the bark off I do that.
Bottom line is each of us does what works for us. We change as I did when something goes way wrong. And threads on safety keep that reminder in at least the back of my head.
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
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You may be right Al. I am not sure if it was wood pinging me, definitely not a bug - none in this stuff and I did not see any rocks since the bark was off. Shoot it could have been an errant wood chip that maybe would not have hurt at all but made a good ping sound. Point is things can fly any direction coming off a spinning piece. The bigger objects tend to stay in that throw zone or line of fire as you know. It is the little pieces that often are the pingers (is that a word :)).

Kelly,
I am sorry for your loss. I know when kids go off to college it feels like a loss even though I know it isn't. I will be moving my son to the University of Alabama, in August, for his first year of school. I am so dreading it because I love having my kids around. Next year I'll have to move my daughter somewhere and then the nest will be empty. I hope it is true when people say they always come back at least for awhile. Kids are so cool and they grow up way to fast. I want the past 18 years as a do over - great times.
 
Joined
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Hawi, Hawaii
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www.kellydunnwoodturner.com
Dale, I think you and I are very lucky we had great kids and got along. I sure see kids who cant wait to leave cause stuff was not kind in the house. Linda and I are really going to miss Rachel. She has been turning since age seven so I at least have had father daughter time. Shes a great kid. I dont see her coming back. You can hardly get as backwater as where we live. You may think Hawaii has no country but out here on the north end of the big island its mostly cattle ranches. She is heading to the California College of the Arts in Oakland. And is really excited to get out of here and be with smart creative kids like herself.
 
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