Is this the future

[Richard Coers]

Richard, you are talking apples and oranges when you say what you can do by scrounging around for old used components and cobble together your own copy of Trent's system as a basis for deciding whether Trent's price is reasonable. That's a bit like telling a new car dealer that you can beat his price by going to "Tote the Note" on the other side of the tracks.

I talked to Trent briefly at SWAT and he showed me what his system does. I think it is really cool, but I don't have any plans to buy one. It's not because I think that it is over priced, but because it is somewhat expensive and I feel uncomfortable spending that much on something that I would seldom use. If I turned a lot of large deep hollow forms then I might give it more serious consideration.

I've never said to not buy the Visualizer, buy one of those, and one of the JT Tools systems if you like. Cobbling together? Bill, I've had three careers in my lifetime. I was a professional modelmaker, mechanical designer, and professional furniture maker. I don't cobble anything. I'm just saying there's no proprietary software or hardware in the Bosch system that can't be duplicated for next to nothing if you try a little. Don't want to try? Don't. JT Tools, not the same story. Same way I can come up with a carbide tipped tool for fraction of purchased off the shelf. Even if I buy their expensive carbide cutters. You can come up with any analogy you want, but you can still drive to work in a used car, or turn a hollow form with a used computer. Both get the job done with identical results.

 

[Richard Coers]

Assuming it is a Windows based computer, go into control panel>power options and set the turn off the display to never in both battery and plugged in. Also change the sleep setting to never. Then turn off the screen saver as well.

Thanks Steve,
"Cobbling" I'm good at, computers I "ain't!"

 

[dbonertz]

Fair price Dale? Deciding fair is up to each individual. I am curious though, which electronic components is he manufacturing that he should add your suggested 100% to 300% mark up? Actually I think you make my case pretty well. Suggesting that a $350 - $400 mark up, over the cost of making it myself, should bring pause to anyone that likes to tinker around and make tools himself. Especially when only over the counter electronic components are used, and a fair number of turners already have a laser mount. The profession or hobby of woodturning is ripe with DIY tools, Trent included. He brought a Fibonacci gage to the demo he did at our club, made from scrap sheet aluminum. It's apparent you are a real fan of Trent, that's fine. But as in any good debate, there are always two sides to a discussion.

To my knowledge he isn't manufacturing the electronic components but purchasing them and then putting it together with what he is manufacturing. I have made my own tools and I don't hold it against anyone in doing so. However, slamming someone for their pricing is not fair to the individual or company when you are guessing at their cost and you really don't know what the costs are. I have been in manufacturing for many years and understand that just because there is a 100% markup doesn't mean the company makes that much profit. They need to cover warranty issues and other things that the consumer doesn't see. You just stated a minor inconvenience on your system (screen blacking out). These types of issues have been worked out in a package type deal. If you want to make your own knock yourself out just don't act like you know someone else costs and pass judgement on their pricing. Besides how big of a market is there for a system like this anyway. If Trent or JT are going to go through the effort in designing and making a tool like this for a smaller market they need to make something and cover R&D.

 

[John Jordan]

Well said, John. May I add CBN wheels to the list?

Yes, Andy, that would be fair. Its not something I couldn't live without, but it makes my toolmaking business easier, and I know have four or five of them. And you could add chucks (all these "old school" guys use them, but real chucks aren't but 20 years old). Good lathes in general, if we had something like the Jet 1640, 1642?, I would have traded my mother for something that good. The first AAW didn't have a lathe nearly that good. And then the truckloads of crap that have been sold as innovations. Anyone own a tube gouge connected to a vacuum? Guy sold a buttload of them one year.

John

 

[John Jordan]

I've never said to not buy the Visualizer, buy one of those, and one of the JT Tools systems if you like. Cobbling together? Bill, I've had three careers in my lifetime. I was a professional modelmaker, mechanical designer, and professional furniture maker. I don't cobble anything. I'm just saying there's no proprietary software or hardware in the Bosch system that can't be duplicated for next to nothing if you try a little. Don't want to try? Don't. JT Tools, not the same story. Same way I can come up with a carbide tipped tool for fraction of purchased off the shelf. Even if I buy their expensive carbide cutters. You can come up with any analogy you want, but you can still drive to work in a used car, or turn a hollow form with a used computer. Both get the job done with identical results.

What about your magazine career, Dick? Do you consider that part of furniture making? You did it for several years, didn't you.


John

 

[hockenbery]

When you cobble something together, remember to pay yourself an hourly rate.
Internet search time to find the components. Time to order them, Unboxing, assembly.......

This would take me about 10 hours. Much of it searching for the parts.

If you time is worth $50 an hour it is a simple choice.

If your time is worth $10 and hour it is a simple choice.

If you enjoy building things more than turning it is a simple choice.

Many of us think our time is worth nothing!

Al

 

[John Jordan]

Bet’cher favorite was As the World Turns!

HaHa. That's a good one.

 

[Mark Mandell]

HaHa. That's a good one.

Guess you didn't need to soak your stuff in dish soap, eh, John?

 

[Richard Coers]

What about your magazine career, Dick? Do you consider that part of furniture making? You did it for several years, didn't you.


John

That was a 3 year run, best job I ever had. Boy howdy do you treated nicely going to a trade show wearing press credentials! Towards the end of the run before they were sold, I went to an Sears editors conference on the Gulf in Florida. They strongly suggested you stay a free extra day at the resort after the conference was over. You know, we get better air fare rates if you stay over a weekend day. "Just pay for your own food." First day of the conference, "fill out two shipping labels for free tools that we will ship to you." "Fill out your work address, home address, it doesn't make any difference to us." That happened all the time!
And let's not forget a free 2 day study under John Jordan for an on the job story in the magazine (best instruction I've ever had), and then there was the free 2 day design seminar with James Krenov that was used to write another article, free trip to Delta corporate for a new machine info meeting, and that trip to Delta Machinery manufacturing to see a contest winners Unisaw get put together. Oh the memories! Too bad Delta didn't ask me to fill out a couple of shipping labels!

Yes I included that as being a furniture maker since I was the project designer/builder for the magazine. I didn't want it to seem like I couldn't hold down a job! LOL

 

[Richard Coers]

To my knowledge he isn't manufacturing the electronic components but purchasing them and then putting it together with what he is manufacturing. I have made my own tools and I don't hold it against anyone in doing so. However, slamming someone for their pricing is not fair to the individual or company when you are guessing at their cost and you really don't know what the costs are. I have been in manufacturing for many years and understand that just because there is a 100% markup doesn't mean the company makes that much profit. They need to cover warranty issues and other things that the consumer doesn't see. You just stated a minor inconvenience on your system (screen blacking out). These types of issues have been worked out in a package type deal. If you want to make your own knock yourself out just don't act like you know someone else costs and pass judgement on their pricing. Besides how big of a market is there for a system like this anyway. If Trent or JT are going to go through the effort in designing and making a tool like this for a smaller market they need to make something and cover R&D.

Please show me where I slammed anyone, or slammed them on the price they are charging?

 

[john lucas]

I'm slowly putting together a system. Still looking for a cheap monitor but I found that you can buy a brand new one at a local electronic store for $99. The camera cost about $15 or less. I purchased from a friend who bought several of them on EBAY so he could help all us computer illiterate people buy cameras to build the system. So it looks like I can put one together for less than $150 including cables. Of course I'm not in a hurry and will find a decent monitor one of these days at far less than $100.
Personally I don't begrudge anyone for making a profit if they can. I've always thought most tools were over priced but I'm basing that on my budge not on what they should really get for the time an effort needed to market the tools. Truth be told when I do break down and buy them I've always enjoyed them and the money spent was soon forgotten. As with anything you sell there will be people who will pay whatever price readily and people who will complain about any price no matter how good it is. That's just life. I remember when I was trying to buy a Sears Router Crafter. They were selling for 2 to 5 times what the new price actually was when they were still available. After 2 years of looking I finally found a used on at the original new cost which is as much as I had decided I would ever pay. Since then of course I have found 2 others at 1/3rd that cost so patience is a virtue when buying on EBAY.

 

[dbonertz]

"I don't understand the pricing of the visualizer. It's a crazy easy DIY project and I have $20 invested in mine."

You didn't say it on this site but another. Maybe slam was a bit harsh for which I apologize. Maybe I should have said passing judgement. My main point is comparing apples and oranges isn't fair to those who make professionally made tools. Cobbling versus something made professionally have very different expenses associated with it thus pricing to reflect those costs. Typically the professionally made tools perform better than cobbled tools do. Keep on turning and have fun.

 

[Richard Coers]

"I don't understand the pricing of the visualizer. It's a crazy easy DIY project and I have $20 invested in mine."

You didn't say it on this site but another. Maybe slam was a bit harsh for which I apologize. Maybe I should have said passing judgement. My main point is comparing apples and oranges isn't fair to those who make professionally made tools. Cobbling versus something made professionally have very different expenses associated with it thus pricing to reflect those costs. Typically the professionally made tools perform better than cobbled tools do. Keep on turning and have fun.

I appreciate the apology for choosing the harsh word. I understand how people get emotional about their friends when they are trying to help them and their business. You aren't the only person to add this emotional support for Mr. Bosch. In another forum, I was even accused of lying, and making all this up about even having a working system at all. I don't choose to participate in all the other forums you listed this post, so we can't judge the full amount of support Mr. Bosch would have gotten. I really did appreciate the people that sent me private messages of support, it was nice to see the other side of human nature on the same day. A wonderful balance! It's alright that you and others still hold on to the belief that my system is some how inferior to Mr. Bosch's. But with no direct knowledge of my system, it's just a difference of opinion, and I do understand that. Anyone is invited to Peoria, IL to see the demo next month. Then you could make an assessment of the performance of my (what you and others insist on calling cobbled up) system, compared to the shiny store boughten one. It can't be a scientific or an engineering comparison since only my system will be used, but you will be able to judge the performance of what I use. If Mr. Bosch and JT Tools would like to send me systems for a shoot out, I am certainly capable of doing a comparison in front of the club with my nearly 30 years of turning experience. I'm sure that someone in the crowd would gladly write up a comparison. I might be able to find someone that doesn't like me too much to keep it unbiased. LOL
The meeting location and information is on our website; http://centralillinoiswoodturners.com/?page_id=18
I am very grateful to Mr. Bosch and JT Tools for bringing this innovation to the market. I enjoy using the technology, and since I don't have the skills to cobble software, I may just one day upgrade to the JT Tools system so I can utilize the software side of their product. Until that time, I'll accept your wish to keep on having fun "Cobblin" my way through life!

 

[Mark Mandell]

It's a rather sad commentary that, except for a very very few, artists in this country can't support themselves and their families without pouring their energies into other endeavors. I've yet to meet a "big name" woodturner who lives on the pure proceeds of what he or she makes on the lathe. They design and make tools. They sell lathes, They run classes and teach in regional schools. They travel for paid demonstrations. They make videos. All to make a buck, but all of which take them away from their art.

Their financial success depends less upon the caliber of their work and more upon their ability to leverage their reputation for high quality work. As manufactures, however, they suffer from the higher costs of small scale operations and the risk cost of purchasing an inventory of required parts. I posit that Mr. Bosch could bring his price down on his video rig by at least half if he "sold" old laptop computers rather than the stand-alone flat screen video monitor he includes. He could reduce his cost further if he didn't make the boom section as a dedicated accessory to his own articulated hollowing rig, instead providing a baseline rig and then a series of adapters to fit others' tools. Query, how many here would consider buying a Bosch rig if it came with a laptop that was scrounged from a recycling bin?

Dick Coers and many others can put together a video system at a fraction of the cost because he can "afford" to use an old laptop for a monitor, and is willing to take the time to research components that will work together. He's also not concerned about long term quality, durability, or whether a malfunctioning part will damage his reputation among potential customers. He's only got $20 invested. He also doesn't have to buy product liability insurance or get a lawyer to write his warranty terms. Dick's version of the rig is likely to do just as good a job for him as would Mr. Bosch's product if it fit Dick's hollowing rig. But the vast majority of potential customers of a Bosch rig don't wish to go Dick's route.

We can wish Mr. Bosch success with his product, and, at the same time, applaud Dick for his resourcefulness and DIY abilities. The two men play in different games and we need not make value judgments in comparisons that don't apply.

After all, most every great inventor has basically been a "cobbler".

 

[Steve Worcester]

I think what is also missing is the cost of the innovation themselves, and the cost of patent lawyers. It is my understanding that patents have been filed for both Trent and JT.

So at some point, depending on how the patents were written, posting plans to make your own, may be a patent violation.

 

[dbonertz]

Dick,

I thought you used the words "that you cobbled together your system", that is why I used it. Sorry if you had not. I guess I am being over sensitive since I started this thread based on the quality of the tool, merit of the tool and how much fun it is. It turned into how to make it cheaper and justifying price. I really did not want to go there but I got caught up in it. I don't know the real and hard costs involved with Trent's or JT's tools. I saw that post on the other site and thought it wasn't right either, if that helps.

BTW, Trent and I are acquainted but not great friends. I posted this on the merits of the tool, not friendship of the maker.

Happy turning,
Dale

Sorry I did not start this thread. Started the other Visualizer thread.

 

[KellyDunn]

Mark, You and I just have not met yet. All my proceeds are from turning sales. OK, I do always except invitations to teach at the Utah symposium. Its a money losing proposition but a great time. OK, I did go teach in New Zealand a couple years back. Got to meet some great folks and the money actually paid for me to be out of the studio. I dont have a line of tools and no videos. But if I dont go teach every now and then the phone calls and emails about my processes get to large. A teaching gig makes all that go down. So that said I am teaching in San Diego in Feb and then up to the channel island woodturners last of Feb first of march then back to Hawaii. In the time I will have to be gone I could make more here in the studio. But I will get hosted, get to meet some old friends. Make some new friends and hopefully some of what I do will benefit a few turners. So when you and I meet you will have met a full time turner. Mostly.
I did get to play with Trents devise a small bit in Phoenix. I thought it was very slick. Since I do hollow forms and have older devises I just could not bring myself to buy it. But I am getting older and I still enjoy hand holding the tools. I have one of dennis Stewarts very first hooker tools. I made a custom flapper for measuring wall thickness. To see around a vessel I use a mirror. So I am not looking at the piece, just the mirror. My shoulders however are telling my age and a system like Trents or others may just have to be in the offing at some point. So far the captured systems I own are older and dont have the flexibility I am used to in hand holding. Perhaps the new articulating arms will change that. But I need to spend time with one without buying to see. I have purchased tools I sure dont use anymore. When in Calif. I will put out the call to see if any of the club members has one of these things I can spend time using. I dont think any of our club members here have any articulating devises.
Thanks for this thread. Very interesting.

 

[Pete Blair]

Strange

Hey guys, I guess I must be confused about who started this thread.

At any rate a lot of good discussion.

I myself have cobbled up a similar system and believe that I haven't infringed on anyone's patent as I am using parts of an idea.

Can an idea be patented?

Might depend on where the the patent was taken out and where the idea is used?

Not sure, but even if a few of us use this idea I'm absolutely positive that the owner of any effected patent wouldn't want to waste the time or resources to try to limit our use of the idea.

Don't most of us turners copy or wind up making a similar design of a tool or jig that we have see somewhere or are these generally not patented?

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... Can an idea be patented? ...

An idea is just the seed that might lead to an invention that might lead to a patent. An invention isn't necessarily patentable. And, even if a patent is granted, it still must be able to withstand challenges. In order to do that you need a big wad of money, a good patent attorney, and well written patent claims along with a substantial paper trail to document the design and development. When I was working, I maintained an engineers notebook to provide part of that paper trail (an engineers notebook is one that is hard bound and each page is numbered and dated and notarized daily).

But, the overarching question that is implied in your original question has to do with the adoption of new technology in woodturning. I don't think that it can be answered any better than John Jordan has already so clearly expressed.

 

[hockenbery]

Had a great 3 day class with Trent and 5 advanced Students.
Hollowing and carving.

After class wrapped up I hollowed a 8" diameter vessel with the visualizer.

It was exceptionally easy to do the hollowing.
Once the visualizer was set, No measuring, no setting and resetting the laser, no guessing.
Smooth even walls. Still had to stop and blow out the chips.

The visualizer is a giant leap from the laser.

Al

 

[GRJensen]

Visual Hollowing - Is this the future

Richard Coers posted a link to my LumberJocks blog (#38). It is at http://lumberjocks.com/TheDane/blog/45489

I put my rig together last summer as more as a proof of concept than anything else. I had heard of one of the commercial systems from another member of my club who saw one at a symposium. Eddie Castelin also showed a home-brew version in one of his webcasts. I figured I could do it cheaper.

It works just fine for my purposes, but it is just another tool. It doesn't make you a better turner and it doesn't improve the quality of your work. The 'future of woodturning' is still in the eye and hand of the artist.

Gerald Jensen
47215

 

[John Torchick]

Technology will never replace the human factor. Besides, they haven't invented an machine that can take 20 minute breaks and drink coffee.

 

[john lucas]

or sit and ponder the future of woodturning.

 

[Bill Boehme]

... or a machine that shops online to buy more "must have" tools.

 

[James Seyfried]

... or a machine that shops online to buy more "must have" tools.

Been there done that. However, retirement is a very effective cure.

 

[idahohay]

Does anyone know if a backup camera and monitor would work. I have one in a piece of equipment and the camera got damaged but the 7" TFT/LCD monitor is still good. The camera was larger than the endoscopic types and used AV cable not a USB plug, also its a 12 volt system.

Been looking at some mini backup cameras but most have a 170 deg. lens and I'm thinking there would be some serious distortion.

 

[Robert Elliott]

Tube gouge - A very old tool

Anyone own a tube gouge connected to a vacuum? Guy sold a buttload of them one year.

John

I was tought to sharpen and use them by my 2 grate grandfather back in the late 50's. He had a set of them that he uasd to turn chairs for the Masonic Lodge in Detroit and D.C. He had on old Kerby vacuum he used in his shop, it was the do anything shop tool then.

 

[Glen Blanchard]

Just now saw this thread. Boy, lots of controversy and I'm not sure why that would be. I bought JT Turning's Cutter-Vision at SWAT last year and love it. I can turn thinner and I can turn with less worry that I'm about to blow through the wall. It's just another tool, folks. It has nothing to do with the creative process. It won't enhance it, nor will it hamper it. I suppose one could make the argument that the ability to turn thin opens up embellishments like piercing, but that's about the extent of its impact on the creative process. I have more fun turning vessels with it because the stress is gone. I'm a hobbiest. I turn because I find it enjoyable and rewarding. If someone introduces a new tool that will foster either of these, it will get my attention.

I'm sure it's not for everyone, but one could say the same thing regarding hollowing rigs, carbide cutters, skews, buying used equipment, participating in woodturning forums, etc etc etc.

 

[Pete Blair]

Just now saw this thread. Boy, lots of controversy and I'm not sure why that would be. I bought JT Turning's Cutter-Vision at SWAT last year and love it. I can turn thinner and I can turn with less worry that I'm about to blow through the wall. It's just another tool, folks. It has nothing to do with the creative process. It won't enhance it, nor will it hamper it. I suppose one could make the argument that the ability to turn thin opens up embellishments like piercing, but that's about the extent of its impact on the creative process. I have more fun turning vessels with it because the stress is gone. I'm a hobbiest. I turn because I find it enjoyable and rewarding. If someone introduces a new tool that will foster either of these, it will get my attention.

I'm sure it's not for everyone, but one could say the same thing regarding hollowing rigs, carbide cutters, skews, buying used equipment, participating in woodturning forums, etc etc etc.

Glen this is exactly what I feel. I have cobbled one together from an old web cam and a unused laptop and only used it once. I'm sure it's no where near as good as the real thing but it does make hollowing a slightly different experience.