Jig adjustment for side angle

[Dean Center]

I'm hoping for a simple answer to a small problem. The stout bowl gouge I bought to rough out octagon shaped green bowl blanks proved to have too narrow a V and clogged excessively. Not wanting to use up the steel in my Crown PM for rough cutting, I decided to get a new, inexpensive gouge. It was supposed to be 'superflute' shaped, but it's more of a U shape and my usual jig settings for the swept back grind I prefer have produced wings that are scary steep. Is there a simple adjustment in the jig settings that will produce a less steep wing? Will rolling over farther on the sides do anything other than lengthen them? I really need to get this basic gouge in the quiver so I can start chasing that one tool that separates me from greatness.

 

[Steve Worcester]

Maybe a picture of diagram will help?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Not having any idea of what kind of jig you are using to sharpen the gouge, all that I can offer is that you can make the wings any length that you please. The only thing that jigs such as the Ellsworth, Varigrind, and Tormek control is the angle. For instance with the Ellsworth, you can lengthen the side wings considerably by excessive grinding on the wings ... and doing so will also make the angle on the wings much narrower.

Since you have gotten the wings where they are very long and you want them shorter, the only option is to start over by reshaping the tool to put a shorter sweep on the sides. If you want a wider angle on the wings then one way to do it with an Ellsworth jig is to shift the pivot point sideways. Try about an inch on each side of the center-line (shift left for the left wing, shift right for the right wing and blend together on center-line). This effectively allows the tool to be rolled over more. It's an old trick to avoid thin sharp wings that seem to be problematic with acute V shaped flutes such as on the Glaser gouge. If you want an even fatter angle on the wings then try 1.5 inches or even greater shift on each side of center. Finally, if you sharpen freehand then you can shape the tool with total freedom.

 

[dbonertz]

As Steve and Bill have stated that not knowing the jig being used is a handicap in trying to help. Assuming you're using the wolverine/varigrind there really is no simple one adjustment. When you move the arm out that will change the nose angle and the wing angle. Adjust the varigrind to get the nose angle where you want it and it will change the wing angle again. So short answer you'll need to play around for a bit to achieve what you"re after. It will also help to go to a more obtuse wing angle if you go to a 1 3/4" reach from the varigrind rather than 2" if that is where you're extension is located. All these little adjustments will get you where you need to be but again it is spending time in front of your grinder and adjust/check/adjust/check/adjust/check/adjust/check/finally there. I just went through this to change my grind to where I now really like it. You don't waste much metal getting there if you're paying attention.

 

[hockenbery]

Dean,
Good advice so far. Especially hard to tell without a picture

I'm going to take a wild guess that you may have tried to reshape the gouge with the flute up.
This often creates a very proud thin wing that never grinds away because it bends.
Won't cut worth a darn even though it looks scarry..

When I reshape a new gouge my first step is to turn it upside down on a platform with the top of the flute square on one edge of the platform and push it up on the wheel gently.
This grinds the top of the wings flat and shapes the profile of the wings. I keep stopping and checking the profile or look from the side until I have the desired profile for the top of the wing. This also sets the length of the wing. This is a little like jointing a knife blade before sharpening.

Most important is the edge along the flute is my desired edge. I just have to grind the outside to this flute edge and no more

I grind the whole edge at first but as it gets sharp in spots I don't grind there any more and grind the parts that still have a flat on the top of the wing until those have a sharp edge.
Then I will grind the whole tool again to smooth out the edge.

This might just take care of the scarry wings.

Al

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Dean by "steep", I assume that you mean that the wing has a very acute edge angle rather than a blunted one. If you are using a Vari-Grind jig or equivalent, you can make the wing edge angle progressively more blunt by changing the angle adjustment of the jig in the direction that tends to align the gouge shaft with the pivot arm or the jig. After each change of this angle, you will need to readjust the position of the sliding V-arm to obtain the desired nose angle.

It is worth noting that for any given setting of jig angle adjustment, the edge angle of the wing becomes increasingly blunt as you increase the length of the wing. Therefore, you will find that if you reduce jig adjustment angle too much and try to grind a long wing, it will be unusably blunt at its outer end.

Dennis

 

[Michelle Rich]

OK, I am of the school of KISS. why not just cut the octogon points off? then you don't have a gouge issue.

 

[Bill Boehme]

OK, I am of the school of KISS. why not just cut the octagon points off? then you don't have a gouge issue.

You helped clarify in my mind what Dean was asking. For some reason I thought that he was trying to make octagon shaped bowls and that had something to do with the gouge flute clogging. Gee, an octagon is almost round. I usually start with four sided stuff just because it is too much trouble to gas up the chainsaw.

Dean, it sounds like one of two potential problems -- the wood is very high in resins or tool technique. If the problem is resins, keep some turpentine or mineral spirits handy to periodically clean the gum from the gouge. Waxing the end of the gouge seems to slow down the accumulation of resins slightly.

 

[john lucas]

It is complicated since we don't have a photo of the gouge. Flute shape affects the wing shape to some degree as well as all the other settings. U shaped gouges typically end up with a much more acute edge on the wing than the V gouges and Superflutes are inbetween.
Dennis had it nailed in that the angle of the bar on the jig will affect the wing shape. It also does change the tip as well as how far you have the gouge extended from the jig.
First off you should look at your tools as consumables and not worry about how often you sharpen. Any decent bowl gouge will knock the corners off a rough turning if it's sharpe and you approach the wood properly. I don't try to make an octagon round. I start at the bottom and start shaping my bowl. This way the bottom gets round and the gouge is cutting round wood until you move out toward the edges where it hits the octagon. Each pass rounds the bowl more so your only hitting those out of round areas at the end of the pass which is much more relaxing on you.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Don't use the wings for roughing, use the nose. If you leave the blank with rough corners, the smart thing to do is to attack the corners out on the rim first by swinging the gouge through from a constant fulcrum. Once things are pretty close to round, where you can get some bevel guidance, you can push the gouge. By starting out at the broad portion where any equalization in weight will have the greatest positive influence, you will get a stable piece more quickly.

Working outside then whittling back means you can cut downgrain constantly, albeit in stages. No catch, if the wings are away from the work and the point of the cut above centerline. This shows work re-truing the inside of a cured piece, but you can see and hear that when the gouge encounters high spots, the turner swings the handle rather than bounce the tool handle in his hand as he tries to guide it forward. Saves his hand and provides great control. http://s35.photobucket.com/user/GoodOnesGone/media/Inside.mp4.html Starts with an already round section, sorry. SWMBO sometimes hits the wrong button(s).

I don't use a bowl gouge for convex hogging, but, disregarding the critique that will inevitably follow from those that do, take a look at how these broad sweep gouges are held, swung into and out of irregular sections, then pushed for stock removal when there's a place to reference the edge. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/YY.mp4.html Do similarly with your narrower sweep, realizing that you will also have a narrower sweet spot.

You won't need to drag the sides back too far if you work the nose outside. Relatively short wings will allow you to plunge and roll, even pull cut if you have to, when hogging inside. I am a freehand sharpener, so I couldn't tell you how to set up any jig other than to use the current shape of the tool as a guide. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/HollowTwo001.mp4.html

 

[hockenbery]

I don't use a bowl gouge for convex hogging, but, disregarding the critique that will inevitably follow from those that do, take a look at how these broad sweep gouges are held, swung into and out of irregular sections, then pushed for stock removal when there's a place to reference the edge. http://s108.photobucket.com/user/MichaelMouse/media/YY.mp4.html Do similarly with your narrower sweep, realizing that you will also have a narrower sweet spot.

Using a spindle roughing gouge on bowls is extremely dangerous for anyone other than a very advanced turner. The broken gouge in the photo is one of the more pleasant things that can happen.

A bowl gouge must be used properly or injury can result. However. Bowl gouges are made to be used on bowls and the worst catch you can get with bowl gouge will be no where near as catastrophic as catches people get using spindle roughing gouges.


I can use a spindle roughing gouge on bowls. I don't for the simple reason that the side ground bowl gouge out performs it.
About half the students I see can outperform your videos of bowl turning by their third bowl. No one wants you to change your style if you are happy with the results.
I don't want you to encourage people to hurt themselves using a tool that is inappropriate.

I have had the opportunity to watch and meet many of the best bowl turners in the world. None of them suggest using a spindle roughing gouge on bowls.



Al

 

[MichaelMouse]

It is called instruction. If you read the post instead of knotting your underwear, you would notice that it recommended using the nose of the gouge versus the wings, a safer approach, I might add, and swinging on a fixed fulcrum, rather than pushing to remove the larger irregularities. This approach mooted the question posed.


But, in this instance, it is merely a larger, more visible mock up for what he could, or in the case of laying sideways and swinging, should be doing to work safely, instead of facing the nose of the gouge into the rotation where a roll in or a high angle could get him in trouble.

There are many ways to do most things. Hundreds of years of use would convince most anyone that the tool itself is not a danger, the operator might be. That may be answered by instruction. Along the way, if the student thinks about it, they will find that the same principles apply to all the tools. If they don't think about it, they will tell people who know how, that history and demonstration of the tool is not enough evidence of its safety and efficiency.

 

[john lucas]

Well I have to agree with Al 100%. Using a spindle roughing gouge when roughing a bowl is just plain dangerous. Sure an advanced turning can do it but I can remove wood just as fast and far safer with a bowl gouge. Heck why do you think so many turners use one. Here is an excellent video showing the results of trying to use a roughing gouge on a bowl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IOhHeyoZLaY

Granted turners 100 years ago used a roughing gougne, they didn't have anything any better.

I do use the fulcrum technique you show and it's so much safer with a bowl gouge. First of all the bowl gouge body is thicker so there's less vibration. Second the bowl gouge shank is thicker so in the event of a catch the tool doesn't get damaged. 3rd, you don't have those upper corners of the U to catch on the wood since the wings are ground back which of course reduces the chances of a catch in the first place

 

[dbonertz]

I have to also agree with Al and John. Michael it appears in the video you are showing a re-trueing an already dry bowl. A bit different than rough turning one with bark or out of balance or undulations and etc in rough bowl blanks. And yes I know you tilt the bed of the band saw to get rid of that but your not showing that in your instruction (your words). Further more, you are a man of science or one who uses it when it applies for your cause. Is it possible that science developed a better tool from 100 to 200 years ago, just as phones, cars, table saws and on and on are better today. You never mention when you say the roughing gouge was used for 200 years how many people were injured by them over that span. Oh that's right they didn't keep those records back then. Is it possible that is why science was put to work to develop a better and safer tool to accomplish this task.

I understand you have become accomplished with your methods but it is irresponsible to tote them, as you do, when there are known and proven methods that are safer. I have no problem with you using your methods. Heck I have no problem you teaching anyone in your shop your methods. But public forums are not the place to show bad and outdated methods.

 

[robo hippy]

If the gouge flutes are clogging, to me, that means a pretty steep V. Part of it could be that you are holding the tool more level, and using more of a scraping cut. This will tend to clog up your flutes more. This type of gouge can be used more with the handle dropped, and doing more of a shear cut, and using the wings more, and the nose less. A more open fluted design will clog less if you hold the tool more level. Me, I prefer scrapers for roughing, even with octagonal pieces.

Since I got my big bandsaw, I can cut slabs that have parallel sides, and they are pretty easy to put on the little bandsaw and cut out a pretty even circle. It saves a lot of time in the roughing stage. For blanks where I use the chainsaw, I have found it helpful to mark out a vertical line using strips of plywood so I can mark the lines parallel. This still does not always get the slab to have good enough surfaces to put on the bandsaw for cutting a circle without the blade binding. Having a properly sharpened chain does make it easier.

If you go to You Tube and type in robo hippy, I have a couple of bowl turning clips up.

robo hippy

 

[KurtB]

Gentlemen, and I use that on purpose, recent comments that were very direct in nature have been deleted. Please remember that we are assisting a woodturner who may have limited experience. Let's not confuse him with more information than he needs at this point. And please remember to be civil-other comments are better suited to PM's.

 

[Dean Center]

Wow. I started out trying to ask if there was a simple answer to what seemed a straightforward problem and got a wide variety of interesting replies and even some moderator purged responses. That's way more than I ever dreamed would happen. I'll try to write clearer questions in the future.

I assume the clogging gouge has too sharp a V in the flute and it has been repurposed into a very good interior bowl bottom gouge.

I bought a cheap gouge because I can't afford a band saw or to view $100 gouges as disposables. I have 2 jigs, one homemade and one Ellsworth, and will make a new jig with different geometry, if there's a way to get the more obtuse angles on the wings by doing so.

The new gouge came with no usable business end and I started my grinding just as Al recommended. I was shooting for a moderate swept back side grind, maybe an inch of length on the 5/8" diameter (American measure) gouge. The nose angle is 59 degrees and the side angles are about 75 degrees measured from across the flute--maybe 10-15 degrees, if I could actually measure the steel on the side of the flute. They're probably about half the angle of my skew, which I grind at 25-30 degrees.

Dennis--when you suggest changing the angle of the leg on the jig, are you suggesting DECREASING the angle? I use a vari-grind jig at the high school where I help teach an after school woodturning class, so I understand how doing so will require a compensating adjustment to keep the nose angle correct (and I can translate your suggestions into a nice hard maple DIY jig). (And it's absolutely against our rules at the school shop for the students to use a spindle roughing gouge on a bowl, which they all want to do when they move to face turning)

Thanks for the help everyone. Sorry to post a confusing question that generated discord.

Dean Center

 

[john lucas]

Dean the reason I suggest looking at a gouge as disposable is that you need to sharpen often to have good control and clean cuts. By viewing it as disposable you sharpen more often because you don't worry about using it up. This has the advantage that you actually learn to sharpen better and consequently actually grind away less metal in the long run. I've been turning a long time and I'm only on my 3rd bowl gouge. If you divide $100 for a gouge (and you can buy them for less than that) by 5 or more years it takes to use one up that's not a bad price.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Dean, since you mentioned using an Ellsworth jig, I think that you should try my suggestion in post #3. It would be a very simple task for you to modify the pivot support point for the jig. Drill a hole on each side of the existing pivot point that is in line with the center of the grinding wheel. The new holes can be about an inch or more on each side of the existing hole -- just make sure that they are about the same distance from the center hole. The wider the spacing, the fatter the angle on the wings. You might want to experiment a bit to get the angle that is best for what you want. You would still use the center hole for shaping the nose end of the gouge.

BTW, the angle on a skew is typically around 40° so you might be thinking of the half-angle when you grind each bevel rather than the included angle.

 

[hockenbery]

Dean, since you mentioned using an Ellsworth jig, I think that you should try my suggestion in post #3. It would be a very simple task for you to modify the pivot support point for the jig. Drill a hole on each side of the existing pivot point that is in line with the center of the grinding wheel. The new holes can be about an inch or more on each side of the existing hole -- just make sure that they are about the same distance from the center hole. The wider the spacing, the fatter the angle on the wings. You might want to experiment a bit to get the angle that is best for what you want. You would still use the center hole for shaping the nose end of the gouge.

BTW, the angle on a skew is typically around 40° so you might be thinking of the half-angle when you grind each bevel rather than the included angle.

Bill can you post a photo of the grind you get?

My first thought is that you will get a broader nose with the wing angles less in line with the handle.
Might be a plus on bevel riding push cuts for roughing.
How does the resulting grind perform on the roughing cuts ( bevel off the wood), pull cuts, and shear scrapes all of which use a lot of the wing?
Also the shear cut which uses the leading edge of the wing to get an extra smooth surface.

Interesting concept. Like to see it.
Maybe making it a bit more like the Michelson grind?
More like the 40/40?

Al

 

[robo hippy]

Maybe the nose profile is an advantage with free hand grinding. Nose profile also depends on the gouge. You can not get a broad nose on a V flute, it has to be more pointy. Opposite with a more U shaped flute, it has to be rounded, and not pointy. This is part of the reason you turn your gouge upside down and grind the top half in the flute profile you want, then sharpen the flat away. Hope that makes sense.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Maybe the nose profile is an advantage with free hand grinding. Nose profile also depends on the gouge. You can not get a broad nose on a V flute, it has to be more pointy. Opposite with a more U shaped flute, it has to be rounded, and not pointy. This is part of the reason you turn your gouge upside down and grind the top half in the flute profile you want, then sharpen the flat away. Hope that makes sense.

robo hippy

Reed,
I agree that nose profile has a lot to do with the flute shape and it it is close to what you see when jointing the up side of the flutes on a new gouge.

What I was asking Bill is how using 3 pivot points for the Ellsworth jig changes the wing and nose profile and how it affects the
6 basic cuts commonly done with the Ellsworth gouge: scrape, roughing, push cut, pull cut, shear cut, shear scrape.

Al

 

[Dean Center]

John--It's taken me 5 years to learn to think of sandpaper as "belonging to someone else". thinking of steel as disposable will take at least that long, but I'll work on it. I had gotten to the point with free hand sharpening that I could get the grind I wanted with modest steel loss and with the wolverine, I can now sometimes refresh the edge with 1 light pass.

Bill--setting the pivot point off center is an intriguing idea that I had not understood in your first post. I'm interested in hearing more from folks on the expected effect of this change.

After simply trying to roll farther on the wings, I tried the gouge on some fresh willow and was able to do a shearing pull cut. It was more bouncy/less stable than with a less acute angle, but usable. The angle is now about 70 degrees measured across the flute.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[robo hippy]

6 basic cuts commonly done with the Ellsworth gouge: scrape, roughing, push cut, pull cut, shear cut, shear scrape.

This is confusing for me as I don't see things the way a lot of other people do. I guess part of it is because I can do all of the above cuts with scrapers. To me, basically it comes down to bevel rubbing and non bevel rubbing, and those come in scraping cuts and shear cuts. Push/pull are variations of the same thing. Shear refers to angle of the cutting tool relative to the rotation of the wood. Scraper flat on the tool rest has 0 shear angle. Gouge flat on the tool rest, with the handle level and flutes at 90 degrees is the same thing. Drop the handle, and/or roll it on its side and you get a shear angle.

robo hippy

 

[Hu Lowery]

fixtures and video

John--It's taken me 5 years to learn to think of sandpaper as "belonging to someone else". thinking of steel as disposable will take at least that long, but I'll work on it. I had gotten to the point with free hand sharpening that I could get the grind I wanted with modest steel loss and with the wolverine, I can now sometimes refresh the edge with 1 light pass.

Bill--setting the pivot point off center is an intriguing idea that I had not understood in your first post. I'm interested in hearing more from folks on the expected effect of this change.

After simply trying to roll farther on the wings, I tried the gouge on some fresh willow and was able to do a shearing pull cut. It was more bouncy/less stable than with a less acute angle, but usable. The angle is now about 70 degrees measured across the flute.

Thanks again for the help.

Dean,

Johannes Michelsen markets a fixture for grinding with the offset holes and also has some youtube video's showing it's use. He does grind a pretty unconventional grind but going over his information will probably help you understand how the offset anchoring points are used.

Hu

http://hannestool.com/products-overview/michelsen-grind

 

[dbonertz]

Robo,

Technically you're right. I think the terms used by turners is just a little simple description for the handle orientation for the cut being made. I guess one could say I am making a pull shear cut with a 10 degree shear angle. Now I am making a pull shear cut with a 45 degree shear angle. Now I am making a push shear cut with a 30 degree shear angle. I just think the terminology is used and consistent enough that most turners understand what is being said by the names given. But I have been wrong before and maybe turners don't know what those terms are meaning.

 

[Bill Boehme]

6 basic cuts commonly done with the Ellsworth gouge: scrape, roughing, push cut, pull cut, shear cut, shear scrape.

This is confusing for me as I don't see things the way a lot of other people do. I guess part of it is because I can do all of the above cuts with scrapers. To me, basically it comes down to bevel rubbing and non bevel rubbing, and those come in scraping cuts and shear cuts. Push/pull are variations of the same thing. Shear refers to angle of the cutting tool relative to the rotation of the wood. Scraper flat on the tool rest has 0 shear angle. Gouge flat on the tool rest, with the handle level and flutes at 90 degrees is the same thing. Drop the handle, and/or roll it on its side and you get a shear angle.

robo hippy

I don't think that your perspective on tools is all that much different. Maybe more to do with which tools you choose to use, but with respect to the relationship between cutting edge and wood not much different in my view.

Each of my bowl gouges has a slightly different shaped grind, but for most tasks, it doesn't really matter which of these tools I use. When one tools gets dull I pick up another and continue turning. I go by the relationship between the cutting edge and wood -- and maneuver the tool as needed to get what I want. It doesn't seem to matter if a famous named turner's grind is on the tool (however, it did before I got over the learning hump).

I do use jigs for gouges and an oval skew just because that what I prefer on the dry grinder and because they are almost essential on the Tormek -- the greater grinding pressure for slow wet grinding being the reason.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Al, about your question, the only difference is that the slight offset with the Ellsworth jig does is make the angle on the wings slightly fatter. Think about it this way -- suppose that you had one of the wide CBN grinding wheels and the pivot point for your Ellsworth jig was in line with the middle of the wheel. Suppose that you were sharpening a bowl gouge and you had the gouge making contact close to one side of the wheel. Next suppose that you decided to slide the gouge over to the other side of the wheel. That is a difference of almost 1½ inches. How much of a change would you expect to see in the angle on the wing? For certain, there would be a difference, but at the same time, it is not too hard to envision that the difference is very small -- maybe a couple degrees or so.

When I was at SWAT, I saw that Johannes Michelsen had a new jig to put his favorite grind on a bowl gouge. It is somewhat similar to what I described except that the offset on each side of center for the pivot arm is much greater (two inches each way so the total difference between pivot points of the wings is four inches) in order to get the extreme rollover that he uses. I forget what the nose angle is, but it is somewhat smaller than the 60° angle that the Ellsworth jig normally is set. I bought one of his jigs because I had a couple of his bowl gouges from a couple years ago and wasn't doing a very good job of freehand duplicating his particular grind. Even with that much offset of the pivot points, the angle on the wings is not all that much wider. It does make the nose slightly more pointed the way that he prefers to sharpen, but then there is no reason that you can't put whatever shape that you want on the nose. I don't know how well that would work on all bowl gouges, but for his particular bowl gouge, it is great. I suspect that it might not be so good for a broad U shaped flute.

The Johannes Michelsen grind is the only one that I don't see as being an all purpose grind. I haven't turned any hats, but I have practiced a bit to try to have good enough tool control to turn stuff as thin as he does. I am still encountering problems when the wall thickness goes negative.

I should add that the Michelsen jig can also be used to put an excellent typical swept back grind on a bowl gouge by using only the center pivot point. If you set the nose angle to around 60° then it is just about the same as the D.E. grind. And, FWIW, it is a beautifully made tool.

 

[Ian Robertson]

John--It's taken me 5 years to learn to think of sandpaper as "belonging to someone else". thinking of steel as disposable will take at least that long, but I'll work on it. I had gotten to the point with free hand sharpening that I could get the grind I wanted with modest steel loss and with the wolverine, I can now sometimes refresh the edge with 1 light pass.

Bill--setting the pivot point off center is an intriguing idea that I had not understood in your first post. I'm interested in hearing more from folks on the expected effect of this change.

After simply trying to roll farther on the wings, I tried the gouge on some fresh willow and was able to do a shearing pull cut. It was more bouncy/less stable than with a less acute angle, but usable. The angle is now about 70 degrees measured across the flute.

Thanks again for the help.

If you get the shape free hand, set the jigs to repeat it.

I have sharpened free hand for 30 years but use jigs now for teaching.

This is the way I go about it: Set your projection, 2" is the norm but it doesn't matter as long as it is the same each time.

Move the arm (the bit that the jig sits in) in or out to adjust the angle on the wing by marking the bevel with a black marker and checking the rub marks.

When the arm is set, adjust the jig to the nose angle using a marker as above.

It may not be exact but it will be very close.

The length of wing is governed mainly by how much swing you use when sharpening.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[hockenbery]

The Johannes Michelsen grind is the only one that I don't see as being an all purpose grind. I haven't turned any hats, but I have practiced a bit to try to have good enough tool control to turn stuff as thin as he does. I am still encountering problems when the wall thickness goes negative.

First off wall thickness is a positive function with a limit of 0. So negative is in our thoughts not the wood.

I know several people who use the Michelson grind for everything from roughing to finish cuts.
I keep a 1/4" thompson gouge with the Michelson grind which i use for finish cuts and hollowing balls where I don't want to sand inside.
It can cut a spherical opening inside a ball with the bevel riding all the way around to bottom center. This could be my only gouge if it were bigger.

I prefer the Ellsworth grind for most of my work. The michaelson grind has micro bevel all around with no bevel drag so it cuts thin work really well.

Thanks for explanation the multi pivots.
Johannes showed my his jig at the AAW with it multiple pivot points.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

OK, Al you have inspired me to use my Michelsen gouge on other things. Now that I have his jig I can do a decent job of getting the grind right.

Are you sure about this negative wood thing? And what is the impact of this on the concept on "negative space"?

 

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

OK, Al you have inspired me to use my Michelsen gouge on other things. Now that I have his jig I can do a decent job of getting the grind right.

Are you sure about this negative wood thing? And what is the impact of this on the concept on "negative space"?

make sure the ID of your bowl does not exceed the OD - or you will have LOTS of negative space.

 

[hockenbery]

Bill,
A Michelson ranger rider hat is just a thin walled bowl elegantly shaped and bent just a bit.
So the gouge will turn bowls very nicely.

Michelson teaches excellent classes on turning this walls.
He might call it a hat class but if you never ever turn a hat you still know how to turn thin.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill,
A Michelson ranger rider hat is just a thin walled bowl elegantly shaped and bent just a bit.
So the gouge will turn bowls very nicely.

Michelson teaches excellent classes on turning this walls.
He might call it a hat class but if you never ever turn a hat you still know how to turn thin.

Al

Well, I'll eat my hat.

Actually, I have turned one really thin bowl. It is somewhere between 1/32" and 1/16" thick. A few spots are slightly less than 1/32". It was a bit scary there. I could have easily made one of those negative space bowls. Super thin impresses other turners, but my wife just said, "that's nice", which is code for "OK, but don't make any more like that".

I have one of Johannes' Range Rider hats and I admire it every day. It was a nice quid pro quo deal. He used my new Robust American Beauty during the SWAT symposium and demo'ed his turning tools and talked about his has turning classes while making a hat for me. I think that I came out ahead on that deal.

 

[hockenbery]

Well, I'll eat my hat.

Actually, I have turned one really thin bowl. It is somewhere between 1/32" and 1/16" thick. A few spots are slightly less than 1/32". It was a bit scary there. I could have easily made one of those negative space bowls. Super thin impresses other turners, but my wife just said, "that's nice", which is code for "OK, but don't make any more like that".

I have one of Johannes' Range Rider hats and I admire it every day. It was a nice quid pro quo deal. He used my new Robust American Beauty during the SWAT symposium and demo'ed his turning tools and talked about his has turning classes while making a hat for me. I think that I came out ahead on that deal.

Lucky fellow!

 

[Gretch Flo]

[QUOTE=Bill Boehme;

"Actually, I have turned one really thin bowl. It is somewhere between 1/32" and 1/16" thick. A few spots are slightly less than 1/32". It was a bit scary there. I could have easily made one of those negative space bowls. Super thin impresses other turners, but my wife just said, "that's nice", which is code for "OK, but don't make any more like that".

I made some thin ones (my "potato chip era") , but I am a utilitarian person. If you open the door, the bowl may go sailing!!!!!!. I have 4 cats. Fragile things aren't safe, and I assume many of my average (not gallery) people may have similar situations.
The same way I don't like no "based" or very small bowls-rocky-even thou they may not fall over, they are unstable if someone uses them. I like the appearance, however. Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

... I have 4 cats...

Only four? We're down to five from seven.

 

[John Lawson]

Only four? We're down to five from seven.

We're down to two from five, and they are 13 and 15. I want to run the population down to zero, and start over when I retire. It will be tough, as I have had cats my whole life. I expect I will eventually fold on adoption day at Petsmart. There will be some quiet, sad, older cat....

 

[Brian McInturff]

Haha, I feel like my wife runs a shelter for runaway cats. I think she has 10 or 12. All of them are fixed and most came from the old Air Force base I work on. People drop them off in the old undeveloped areas(base closed in 93). Found 4 kittens once in a paper bag that had the top stapled shut.

 

[Gretch Flo]

cats

We're down to two from five, and they are 13 and 15. I want to run the population down to zero, and start over when I retire. It will be tough, as I have had cats my whole life. I expect I will eventually fold on adoption day at Petsmart. There will be some quiet, sad, older cat....

I Like cats better than dogs as you can leave them on auto pilot for 2-3 days if necessary. I like their aloofness, and not as "needy"., nor the need to walk them a couple of times a day. (altho I guess I could use that kind of exercise!!!) One or 2 of them join me in the basement wood turning. One even returned after a hunk of bark flew off and made a big noise, sending him running. I have not issued helmets for the cats Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

I Like cats better than dogs as you can leave them on auto pilot for 2-3 days if necessary. I like their aloofness, and not as "needy"., nor the need to walk them a couple of times a day. (altho I guess I could use that kind of exercise!!!) One or 2 of them join me in the basement wood turning. One even returned after a hunk of bark flew off and made a big noise, sending him running. I have not issued helmets for the cats Gretch

I also prefer cats. Your characterization of kitties is generally true, but not for all cats. My wife thinks it is funny because I always have a pride of cats following my every move. And Mr. Squeak, my avatar cat, must be a dog-cat because he fits all the characteristics of a dog and none of the normal cat behaviors. He is gregarious, demands that I walk him every evening after dinner, gets very needy and neurotic if he can't find me. He is also a willing and eager photography assistant, serving as my exposure and white balance consultant. Our youngest cat has chosen him as her role model and constantly follows him around.

Our kitties also enjoy bird-TV on the Cornell University All About Birds website. If you haven't seen their latest videwos on the birds of paradise project, check it out t the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTR2...ew-vl&list=PLgSpqOFj1Ta4xHFM4kKR4VTW8CJmPNNNA

If your internet connection is fast enough to display full HD in full screen, then select that option. This is the most incredible project that I have seen on researching these birds.

Mr. Squeak looks behind the monitor trying to find these birds.