"Legacy tools" ??

[Jamie Straw]

What tools would you very veteran turners consider "legacy tools" -- defined as tools that used to be used by almost everyone, but not commonly used by today's turners? The two I've thought of are the bedan and the pyramid tool. This info is being sought for a writing project I'm involved in.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm not exactly a veteran turner, but I use my bedan frequently. The bedan seems to be the tool of choice if you want to make Escoulen type creations. The pyramid tool is also a very useful tool although maybe not frequently used other than for detail work. I wouldn't necessarily lump not often used tools with legacy tools. You might need to research what type of tools were used a couple centuries ago to get a feel for legacy tools, but I have a feeling that many bodgers invented their own tools as the need arose. Thinking in more recent terms, legacy tools would probably be carbon steel tools that were made from flat bar stock. Gouges were formed by forming the flat stock into a U shape. The hook tool is very likely a legacy tool. I use one now and then ... it's an humbling experience.

 

[Jamie Straw]

I'm thinking of tools that would have been in every turner's rack perhaps 75 years ago (think Allan Batty and his father), but have fallen by the wayside for many turners ("Eh, what? A bedan?"). There may not be any (e.g., I could be mistaken about the bedan and pyramid tool) or there could be some I'm not aware of. Sometimes, I worry about the skew going that way. Crazy that people think it's so very, very diffIcult. [Reason for edit: suddenly noticed there was a spider crawling on the edge of my keyboard, which fatally interrupted typing]

 

[john lucas]

The pyramid tool or 3 point tool as some call it is relatively new, maybe 15 years old I think. The Bedan is well known in France but not so common here or in England. The bowl gouge is relatively new as well. What I see in the old books are parting tools, wide spindle gouge, skew, sometimes the spindle roughing gouge but many used the wide spindle gouge as a roughing tool. Round nose and flat scrapers were quite common as well as a V shaped scraper.

 

[R Henrickson]

Hook tools would definitely be one of the now less frequently used of the once essential and widely used tools, although Robin Wood uses them almost exclusively in his bowl turning on his pole lathe. Alan Lacer also demonstrates making and using hook tools. I've tried using a hook tool several times -- they take some getting used to, but can yield a beautifully smooth cut, better than many modern / current tools.

Pole lathes themselves could be considered one of the once crucial tools which are now rare; probably treadle- and bow lathes should be added to that list.

John Lucas has provided a good list of the traditional tools. A list of little-known traditional tools could perhaps also include the great variety of tools used in German hoop/ring turning -- many are specific to that single regional craft tradition.

 

[Owen Lowe]

Gouges were formed by forming the flat stock into a U shape. The hook tool is very likely a legacy tool. I use one now and then ... it's an humbling experience.

I agree with your comment on the old-style spindle gouge being legacy tools. I have a couple of these forged, old-school style gouges from Ashley Illes; they are much different than the modern bar gouges and give as close to skew finish from a gouge as I’ve ever used. However, like a skew you can get a catch and back-spiral if you’re not careful.

André Martel sells traditional hook tools; humbling is a good word for them if you’re not up to speed with them.
http://martelhooktool.com/ENG/USA/outils_usa_EN.html

 

[Bill Boehme]

If you are interested in a broader view, talk to Andy Chen and he could help you with traditional tools used in China. Traditional tools there and in Japan are different from Western tools that we are familiar with.

I think that scraping easily worked green wood was the state of the art for a very long time until powered machines came along and changed the world.

 

[Dean Center]

A chisel with the edge and bevel straight across used to be standard. Not sure when someone thought to grind them with a skew angle, but probably a very long while ago.

 

[Barry Crowder]

I don't mean to be snarky, but depending on the context, I might think of legacy tools as anything that was used before carbide cutting tools came along.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I think that old style tools where those that were used in the time before powered lathes as what we now use.

So slicing tools like skew/chisel, hook tools and the continental gouge were the most commonly used tools for all I know.

And of course wet green wood was the material used.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I don't mean to be snarky, but depending on the context, I might think of legacy tools as anything that was used before carbide cutting tools came along.

Could it be that legacy ain't what it used to be?

Woodturning is evolving an ever increasing pace so there is no telling in what direction tools may evolve, but I don't see carbide as the pinnacle of tool evolution. To me it seems more like a specially branch. Maybe all hand held tools will become obsolete. But, the more that art changes the more it stays the same.

 

[john lucas]

Robin Wood probably laughs histerically when he sees this video but I had a good time making it. Some Students at school had to make a video for their education class and one of them knew I had the pole lathe and asked if I would do a demo for them. Some odd editing but hey it was their first video. Notice the lack of gray hair, that was done a while ago. I'm using my "traditional" tools. Actually that's when I started sharpening my spindle roughing gouge at a much more acute angle because I found out the sharper it is the easier the wood rotates through it. I still use that tool today and have it sharpened at a mildly blunter 45 degrees.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOrctojBT2Y

 

[Tom Gall]

Just went to an all-day Stuart Batty demo today. Apparently, the negative-rake scraper has been around for several centuries.

 

[Mike Johnson]

2 MAN CROSS CUT SAW, THE ORIGINAL CORDLESS TOOL.

 

[odie]

How about the diamond parting tool........anyone still using those? I've got a couple of them, and don't think I've used them for about 25 years!

 

[robo hippy]

Well, for me, of course, scrapers come up. There are several variations of ring and hook tools that are older than me anyway.... If you haven't checked out Robin Wood, do so. He forges his own tools.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

How about the diamond parting tool........anyone still using those? I've got a couple of them, and don't think I've used them for about 25 years!

I have one and I use it once in a great while. My favorite is a Sorby 2 mm thin fluted parting tool. I once used it to part something that was almost six inches in diameter. It worked fine until it didn't work fine. The tool jerked out of my hand and bent about 20°. Maybe that was a bit too much for a thin parting tool. I thought that the kerf was wide enough, but apparently not.The tool straightened out just fine, but I'll be showing a bit more respect next time.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

A turner I really enjoy seeing from afar is Ulf Jannson, from Sweden. He uses a ringtool a lot and has some great demos on Instagram.
He turns paper-thin vessels and has an intriguing sense of design.

He just posted a couple of impressive looking hook tools:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BNUn60sFVnC/?taken-by=svarvulf

 

[Jamie Straw]

Yep, developed to cleanly work ivory.

 

[Jamie Straw]

2 MAN CROSS CUT SAW, THE ORIGINAL CORDLESS TOOL.

Hah! I just sold one to a friend's brother in Alaska. Now he has to get it there, LOL.

 

[R Henrickson]

How about the diamond parting tool........anyone still using those? I've got a couple of them, and don't think I've used them for about 25 years!

I use one frequently

 

[hockenbery]

How about the diamond parting tool........anyone still using those? I've got a couple of them, and don't think I've used them for about 25 years!

I use a diamond parting tool frequently.

Diamond scrapers may not be used much. These scrapers were primarily for making beads but most people either cut beads with a skew or spindle gouge or scrape them with a beading tool.
Another use is for scraping grooves but most folks use a pyramid tool or cut them with thenpoint of a skew.

 

[john lucas]

My friend who was a production turner in Pidgeon forge TN. use to claim he couldn't use a skew. However he did several cuts with the diamond scraper that were just like I do with the skew. One was to put the flat side against the bottom of a goblet and use that as the bevel to clean up the bottom of goblets. Very much like I use the toe of the skew. I also cut the tenons for chucks using the flat side down and cutting with it like planing with a skew.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Based on the responses to this thread, I have come to the conclusion that there are no "legacy tools" as defined by me. It will make the questionnaire I am writing one question shorter, which is a good thing. I'll fill you in on the ?-aire after it's official. Thanks!

 

[RichColvin]

How about the diamond parting tool........anyone still using those? I've got a couple of them, and don't think I've used them for about 25 years!

I'm from the school of use what works, so I use mine often. Wanna sell me your's ?

 

[RichColvin]

Jamie,

I feel strongly that carbon steel tools are legacy. The metallurgy has grown so much past that old steel that I think those tools will be less & less seen.

I happen to prefer slicing over scraping, but I think that's a preference thing, not a legacy thing (and I do own a few scrapers).

Rich

 

[odie]

Jamie,

I feel strongly that carbon steel tools are legacy. The metallurgy has grown so much past that old steel that I think those tools will be less & less seen.

I happen to prefer slicing over scraping, but I think that's a preference thing, not a legacy thing (and I do own a few scrapers).

Rich

Rich, you could be right that Carbon steel tools are probably the only thing in this "legacy tool" thread that is certifiably valid in universal application. It seems that all kinds and shapes of tools used in the past, are still in use by turners here and there, today.......So, nothing is really off the table for use, or within the true application of the term "legacy", as it's intended to apply by Jamie.........

I'm from the school of use what works, so I use mine often. Wanna sell me your's ?

Even though I haven't used my diamond parting tools for decades, I'll probably keep the Sorby(?) forever, just because I might want to use it some day. It's been so long that I've used it, that I'd have to go out to the shop and check to see what brand it really is. The other one is a cheap one that was included in a cheap set of "starter" tools I bought ages ago. I have quite a few specialty tools, and cheap tools that I might sell someday, but I really don't have anything that I'd like to sell at the moment.

My normal parting tool is a thin kerf Nick Cook fluted tool. This one has been great for my purposes.......

I had been thinking the diamond parting tool was probably universally replaced by the thin parting tools, these days.....but, I guess I was wrong about that!

ko

 

[MichaelMouse]

What tools would you very veteran turners consider "legacy tools" -- defined as tools that used to be used by almost everyone, but not commonly used by today's turners? The two I've thought of are the bedan and the pyramid tool. This info is being sought for a writing project I'm involved in.

Any of the tools that look like traditional carving tools. That's where most of the turning tools came from. From straight chisels - far easier to learn than skews - to various sweep and breadth gouges, to the fun ones like the "bruzz". As mentioned, when lathes are human or recoil powered, slicing is preferred to scraping, a high friction alternative which requires less skill and more sanding.

 

[Steve Worcester]

A chisel with the edge and bevel straight across used to be standard. Not sure when someone thought to grind them with a skew angle, but probably a very long while ago.

If you are referring to a side ground gouge, as opposed to straight across, that would be early 1980s.

 

[Dean Center]

If you are referring to a side ground gouge, as opposed to straight across, that would be early 1980s.

I was referring to a chisel. One with a bevel on both sides, like a skew, but with the edge straight across rather than at an angle. We have several of indeterminate age in our high school shop--they might have been left behind by Lewis and Clark when they passed through. I also recall using them in 7th grade shop class, about 55 years ago.

 

[Clifton C]

Probably not "legacy" and not sure of the name. This tool was invented by a "flat woodworker" who was mad at the woodturners for having too much fun, he slipped it into the tool room when no one was looking...

 

[Bill Boehme]

Probably not "legacy" and not sure of the name. This tool was invented by a "flat woodworker" who was mad at the woodturners for having too much fun, he slipped it into the tool room when no one was looking...View attachment 21362View attachment 21363View attachment 21364View attachment 21365

A good example to illustrate just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I was referring to a chisel. One with a bevel on both sides, like a skew, but with the edge straight across rather than at an angle. We have several of indeterminate age in our high school shop--they might have been left behind by Lewis and Clark when they passed through. I also recall using them in 7th grade shop class, about 55 years ago.

Straight chisel rough or plane.

http://vid35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/CylinderRough.mp4

Beads, too, though a smaller would, I suppose, be better for the demo. Note, with no nose, no grab!

http://vid35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Bead.mp4

The skew itself is an old tool, but it still, back when I was a turning pup, came in right and left-handed models as originally made. That is to say, ground one side, not both. It was not used for planing, tools other than the skew being easier to use. Rather, it was used point down for "pommel" type cuts, with the non-bevel side making a clean surface at 90 degrees or whatever else was required. The tool really is a lousy choice for beading or much of any task with the point up. Too easy, as many have discovered, to dip the point into uncut wood and spiral out. Pommel cut with a two-beveled skew here. https://www.craftsy.com/blog/2015/02/pommel-cuts/ Don't imagine many turners who had a beading tool/bedan/straight chisel used it for much else.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Based on the responses to this thread, I have come to the conclusion that there are no "legacy tools" as defined by me. It will make the questionnaire I am writing one question shorter, which is a good thing. I'll fill you in on the ?-aire after it's official. Thanks!

See my review of the skew. The single-grind is gone. Haven't seen a bruzz in ages, either.

 

[odie]

If you are referring to a side ground gouge, as opposed to straight across, that would be early 1980s.

Hello Steve......... Are you aware that the "traditional" grind is capable of wings that are swept back, similar to, but not as pronounced as the side ground gouge?

I'm trying to visualize your statement above, and it's possible you are referring to "straight across" as what has been discussed previously as "traditional" grind. To a degree, I think your point is valid, but the traditional grind has many possible outcomes, as far as usable gouge grind shapes that are possible.

ko

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

The Irish grind came up in 1991 as this write-up is from then, it was where Ellsworth learned about it and brought that back with him and ground it with shapes, different than the early shape developed by the Irish turners.
The write-up is here and the picture of Ellsworth, riding the lathe as he was doing in those days, while hollowing the small HF.


One of my bowl gouge grinds with a modified traditional grind, not an Irish grind.

 

[odie]

One of my bowl gouge grinds with a modified traditional grind, not an Irish grind.

Hiya Leo........I think you and I may have discovered the versatility of the exact same type of traditional grind shape.....! The only difference I can see is yours has a little more rounded nose, while mine has a little more pointy nose shape. It would be easy to grind either of our shapes by spending more, or less time on the nose area while grinding.
This is my version of the same basic grind:

It looks like both yours and mine have somewhat of swept back wings that are about 2/3 the length of many of the more common side-ground gouges. Personally, I think it's easier to manipulate under a wide variety of circumstances than the latter, but I guess that can boil down to a matter of opinion. The traditional grind gouge, IMHO, certainly is a simpler configuration to re-grind, and get back to your work quicker........
ko

 

[hockenbery]

swept back wings that are about 2/3 the length of many of the more common side-ground gouges. Personally, I think it's easier to manipulate under a wide variety of circumstances than the latter, but I guess that can boil down to a matter of opinion. The traditional grind gouge, IMHO, certainly is a simpler configuration to re-grind,
ko

Kelly, the short wing is a fairly common grind. It is still a winged tool whether you call it fingernail, or side ground. Too much wing to call it traditional.
It is nearly identical to the grind Ron Browning uses. He has a simple home made jig to sharpen it with. Just slide the tool in and grind no clamping.

I know other turners who sharpen a similar grind with a platform or varigrind
Leo's grind is similar to the a grind Phil Brown uses that he says he adopted from Stocksdale. You may have seen the 30 year profile.

Also your grind is similar to the 40/40. The wing on the 40/40 is sharper.

I agree shorter wings are easier to control than the longer wings.
Newer turners should use shorter wings unless they get some coaching.

Your grind is excellent for the push cuts and probably quite good for the advanced flute up shear cuts( it might be a bit too pointy for this)
The Longer winged tools IMHO are much better for roughing cuts, pull cuts, back cut, shear scraping, and scraping.

 

[odie]

Al......I think where there is some confusion, is you and I, both are considering terms to be universally applicable, where it's really not.......and, the testament to this, is so often there is not a universal understanding of what others mean in their statements, specifically as a result of an individual's varying definitions of words.

To my thinking, a "traditional" grind is not a description of any one particular grind, but how it is ground. That may be a point that confuses the issue for some people.......Or, maybe it's just me and and a few other turners, like Leo (I think) who are considering that any shape of grind that is produced by a gouge rotating on it's own longitudinal axis while it's being ground, is a "traditional" grind. This is one thing that I understood from Steve's post......that he believes only the very blunted (more obtuse) angle grind is what he considers a "traditional" grind, and nothing else. I could be wrong about what he, and others think about that, but from my perspective, Leo's and my grind are also a "traditional" grinds.....based on how it's ground, rather than singling out one particular grind. This is the way it is with a "side grind" gouge as well, it seems......because the term encompasses a variety of possible grinds that are considered to be "side ground" gouges.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Kelly,
Woodturning vocabulary is not well defined. However most turners describe and name gouge profiles by their shape not the process of how they were ground.

If some one grinds your grind with a woulverine would you call that a side grind?

When turners read " traditional grind" most will picture a straight across grind like the one shown in the American woodturner, October 2011 article on gouges byJoe Larese which is widely circulated and shows the straight across grind as traditional. Leo called his grind a "modified" traditional which is common terminology for a short wing and a tool that is not ground straight across Or close to straight across.