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Losing the battle

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Emiliano Achaval, Dec 27, 2017.

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  1. Martin Groneng

    Martin Groneng

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    Sorry Owen, I would never even think of telling someone to "test the rules", especially a newbie! Over my numerous years, beside and behind the lathe, I've seen too much blood which have resulted from testing the rules. Many have hit the floor and some came darn close to being carried out in a box. SAFETY is NUMBER utmost! We, as members of AAW must always stress SAFETY. There are lots of non-member rookies visiting this site by the hour and we must always talk safety.
     
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  2. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    That’s one of my points, Woodturning technique has not changed in hundreds of years, I have the Holtzapffel books from the late 1700 and the technique is what we use today, lots of the gouges are the same. So there is no need to reinvent the wheel... We have better steel and cbn now, a few different grinds, but they knew then than cutting down hill was the way to do it, yet, some people will argue about that nowadays...
     
  3. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    Feels good to know I’m not alone swimming against the YouTube tide! Completely agree. Aloha
     
  4. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Regarding YouTube. AAW volunteers are building a library of reviewed videos.

    http://aawvideosource.org/

    It is more of a directory of videos accepted by the comittee.
    They look at safety and then technique.

    Only videos considered safe practices by the comittee are put in the directory.

    AAW members can recommend videos. Some videos have annotations regarding PPE that should be used.
    It is not a perfect system and there are many videos the committees have not had time to review

    Regardless it is a list videos that can be trusted to use safe practices.
     
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  5. John Turpin

    John Turpin

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    In addition to videos, I'd be interested in a list of AAW members that give personalized instruction. Being a relatively new turner, I wouldn't recognize proper technique from improper. If there were a vetted list of AAW member instructors that teach "proper" or "traditionally proven" methods, I'd certainly contact them for some 2018 training. Videos and symposium demos are great, but nothing beats hands-on advice from a master.
     
  6. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    With David Heim we are trying to do the same with Spanish speaking videos. I cringe with 99% of the videos. They are about 70 years behind us, nothing but straight scraping and unsafe practices.
     
  7. Fadi Zeidan

    Fadi Zeidan

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    There are quiet few of them.

    Al Huckenbery, Liam O’Neil, Stewart Batty, robohippy, John Lucas, Lyle Jamieson, etc.

    I am compiling a playlist for my reference here

    DVDs wise, I have a collection but by far my favorite are done by Lyle Jamieson and David Ellsworth.
     
  8. Owen Lowe

    Owen Lowe

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    Completely agree with you on major rules, though I feel you kinda jumped to something more dangerous than what Emiliano said and to which I replied. I was responding to Emiliano’s comment about a YouTube video showing scraping a spindle uphill tied with teaching people about bowl turning. I wouldn’t encourage anyone to do something in which an injury may result, however, if you want to scrape or cut the “wrong” direction, then I continue to believe everyone should try it.
     
  9. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    You can get a list of AAW members who have registered as teachers and demonstrators. Since it is self registration there is no vetting. it is possible there could be some frauds or deluded people register.
    However this registry is under the Professional Outreach Program and I have not heard of any complaints about people who should not be on the registry.

    The top teachers nationally will have a resume of demonstrations for various symposiums and classes taught for the craft schools, community centers, and other class rooms like craft supplies. Local teachers will be known to the local chapters.

    The AAW searchable database of teachers and demonstrators - AAW members who have self registered. Go to link below and type in Oklahoma for a list in Ok. You can do things like narrow the search to Types if turnings.
    http://aaw.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=1553
     
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  10. Fadi Zeidan

    Fadi Zeidan

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    I think Stewart Batty’s Fundamentals term is better than calling it a Rule. It is just a terminology but it does make a difference to some.
     
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  11. RichColvin

    RichColvin

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    When I was in sales training at IBM, I was told to learn the tried and true methods, then once those were mastered, I was allowed to vary from there. I think that is a good plan, and today I tell people to master one thing before moving to another. That is the only way to truly assess that one thing is better or worse for you.

    Rich
     
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  12. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    hockenberry, good to have the videos reviewed and put on the AAW website. I have some projects that I am about to start. Safety is something that is the first "tool" that should be on the tool rack. Some companies have posters all around the shop or factory, emphasizing safety rules. Machinery has warning labels about safety rules to be followed.
     
  13. Hy Tran

    Hy Tran

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    Hello, John,

    Our local chapter has a number of mentors (although that resource is not as well-used as I'd like; I'm going to ask our elected and appointed officers for creative ways to increase the use of club mentors).

    I've found that all the professional demonstrators have good technique. Their classes, whether held in their individual studios, or as part of the visiting-professional-demonstrator-at-a-local-club network, are worthwhile (to me, anyway).

    That said, it's not just the ability of the professional--it's their ability as an instructor, and how their teaching method meshes with your individual learning style.

    If you have it in your budget (I do in mine, budget-wise, but not necessarily vacation-time-wise)--plan on a 5 day class somewhere. I've got Arrowmont or the Colorado equivalent in my 3-5 year bucket list, and a few days (3-5 days) with targeted invididual instructors and skills on a shorter list (1-3 years).

    Lastly, philosophically, I have some issues with the idea of vetted lists. It's a form of barrier or hurdle. Example: I'm a registered professional engineer, and while I understand the need to license engineers where their decisions impact public safety, I have issues with overly broad licensing schemes. I like the AAW videosource project, but I would emphasize these two caveats: (1) A video not listed in AAW videosource is not necessarily unsafe or uninstructive; (2) a video listed in the videosource website is not necessarily the safest or best approach.

    Best,

    Hy
     
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  14. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    Well said John... Sadly, lots of people dont care, but I believe they dont simply because they dont know what is the most efficient way to do it. Others get horrible catches and give up on the gouges and start scraping away...
     
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  15. odie

    odie

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    You know Emiliano.....My best guess is the "scraper vs gouge" issue is compounded by the introduction of the easy-wood tools. The initial appeal is it bypasses the need to learn how to sharpen.....then it sucks the turrrner into a habit that's hard to break. There's no question that scraping can produce a sandable surface, but a slicing cut ( if done correctly) can produce a better surface than a scraper can, and this includes shear scraping. I'll make an exception to that statement by excluding raised burr shear scraping from it.

    Once a turner gets comfortable with scraping exclusively, many will resist learning the joy of using a gouge.....they will still have to learn sharpening techniques......and then have to learn how to apply gouge to wood effectively. Doing that is a pretty long and rocky road, and I can certainly understand the tendency to stick with scraping, because after all, scraping does produce a sandable surface that might be acceptabe to them.

    Personally, I feel the Easywood tools are preventing some turners from ever reaching their true potential.....sad. :(

    -----odie-----
     
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  16. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    The traditional Gouge vs Scraper argument is one that is best settled by the wood, the object being turned, and the turner.
    On the extremes for wood are
    - dense exotics simply won’t cut with a gouge and the only way to tool a clean surface is with scrapers.
    - soft hardwoods like willow that must be cut and will not even shear scrape clean.

    Objects:
    Bowls are usually doable either way.
    Fine details on Spindles gouge win.
    Hollowing hollow forms scrapers win by default
    Architectural turnings can be done either way

    Then there is the turner.

    I had the pleasure of meeting Myron Curtis when I did a demo in Norfolk many years ago. He had a shop full of huge Oliver lathes the small one was 12 feet between centers and he Turned pallet loads of architectural spindles.
    His primary tool was a home made 1/4” wide scraper. ( a few production turning businesses rely on a similar tool)
    One item that fascinated me was a six foot diameter door molding he said would be cut in half for each side of the top of an arch. Over dinner Myron told me he thought some Items he turned could be improved if they were cut by a gouge but he figured it would take him 6 months to get as good with a gouge as he was with the scraper and he could not afford to lose that much income learning. A cost benitfit analysis.

    In 2008 Myron was one of the invited demonstrators for the AAW Symposium in Richmond.
     
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  17. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    The gouge vs carbide scraper argument is the new beast.
    My view has evolved.

    We had some center stage demos at a wood working show with video, microphones, seats
    Next to us was an Easy Wood booth.
    During Don Geiger’s demo of a gorgeous Natural Edge Bowl. The Easy Wood guy turned a green wood salad bowl. The Easywood guy used 4 tools and took a little longer than Don to turn a smaller bowl. The finish from Don’s Ellsworth ground gouge was sandable with 220 the finish for the easywood Could be sanded with 80. Clearly the best bowl was the gouge turned one.
    Now think about the audiences. as a guess 80% of the easy wood audience could buy the tools go home and turn an 8” bowl. 20% of Don’s audience could go home and turn a 8” natural edge bowl.
    Fast forward 2 months and the 80% are cranking out bowls and their last one is just about the same quality as their 2nd. The 20% are cranking out bowls and each is a better than the last.

    I used to think the 80% were wasting their time. But came to realize they are making ok bowls and having fun. Some will want a little more and show up at Arrowmont or Cambell.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
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  18. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    Thank you Al Hockenbery, as usual, the calm voice of reason.
     
  19. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    You could also look at this in another way, a seasoned wood turner with years of experience
    could be handed a craftsman screwdriver and turn a beautifully crafted bowl on the lathe. At
    the same time you could offer up the latest and greatest Cryo treated tools to an amateur wood
    turner and end up with something maybe resembling a bowl. If you turn on daily basis your needs
    will differ from someone that turns a piece once a month if they are lucky.
     
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  20. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    Well said Odie. I completely agree. Why spend hours learning how to use a gouge when with those tools you can start right away. I'm glad I didn't have those tools when I started or I'll be an easy tool guy, lol
     
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