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Losing the battle

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by Emiliano Achaval, Dec 27, 2017.

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  1. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Just doing some housecleaning and deleting OT posts to hopefully get the discussion back on track. We can disagree without being disagreeable.
     
  2. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    I found this, I thought you might find it interesting... It's a little old, and far from what I would call complete, but someone at AAW decided to post it on FaceBook.
    Staff-Pick Article:
    "Real Woodturners DO Use Scrapers!" by Russ Fairfield

    Published in the Spring 2003 issue of American Woodturner. 1b.jpg
     
  3. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    George, I'm an AAW member, I receive the journal and emails. I have seen this years ago. Please let it go already. I have move past this and I do not wish to argue anymore. Thank you for understanding.
     
    George Guadiane likes this.
  4. john lucas

    john lucas

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    Not sure what the argument is about. I use scrapers every now and then. Sometimes it's just the right tool. I have reached the skill level where I don't use them as often. The AAW post that came out the other day had a section on using scrapers and my video on shear scraping. If you look at how fast the EZwood tools took over then you understand how easy scrapers are to use. It helps introduce a lot of new turners to wood turning. IN the classes I teach with the Hunter carbide tools that you use like a scraper, there isn't any stress for the students. No wild frustrating catches and they get a nice finished product. It is up to us to take them from this early scraping phase to the next bevel rubbing phase if they really get into turning.
     
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  5. odie

    odie

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    Emiliano, all you can do is state your case, or beliefs......and, understand that no matter what they are, there will always be those who will disagree with you.....especially on woodturning subjects!!! Sometimes it's hard to leave it at that, and walk away knowing you've given your point of view, hoping you've stated your thoughts well enough to stand on their own merits.....without engaging in a "back and forth" argument. (Sometimes I'm one of the worst offenders of this......but I am an evolving forum entity, who is learning to "bite my tongue" once in awhile! :D)

    =============================================================

    I have a couple of comments about George's posted article. This part:
    1b (2).jpg
    The more heat introduced in raising a ground burr, the more likely it will not be very wear resistant......thus the heavy burr has little usefulness in my opinion. Both the Micro Burr and the Heavy Burr are raised on a wheel, and the cutting surface is a "saw tooth" edge. No matter what you do with that jagged edge, it will never produce a surface that is the equal of a nicely ground and honed edge on a gouge.

    That illustration of the "No Burr" is indicative of the kind of edge that is capable of a finer cut, but that kind of result comes at a price to pay for it. It is the skill of the user that makes a difference, and that comes by no other means than practice. It isn't going to help the newbie very much in a session with his mentor, until it's applied repeatedly. The "no burr" is best when done with a diamond hone (or CBN hone, I think.....but, I don't currently have one.), and the resulting edge is much finer than that created by the wheel alone.

    The Micro Burr (above, in center) actually has the best handling characteristics, but jagged edge is it's downfall. The only real solution is to meld the No Burr fine edge into a Micro Burr configuration......and, the way to do that is to make a No Burr into a Micro Burr, by raising it by hand. I use a Veritas to do this, and it results in the best burr a scraper can possibly have.
    IMG_2784.JPG
    This raised burr, which is honed and then raised by hand, is a springboard for what a scraper is ultimately capable of. There again, though......it takes some serious practice to get the kind of results it's capable of. The surface this burr is capable of sometimes DOES exceed the capabilities of a finely ground and honed gouge.

    -----odie-----
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018 at 9:44 AM
  6. Grant Wilkinson

    Grant Wilkinson

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    Emiliano: Compared to everyone who has so far commented, I'm a newbie by far.

    That said, with respect, I take exception to the options you set out in your first post. You say, "I try to teach how to cut the wood, with sharp tools ,with traditional tools, following the established rules that we all know. Am I wrong? should I tell the next beginner that it doesn't matter if you cut the wood clean or if you butcher it with a scraper?"

    I don't buy into the assertion that you must butche wood if you use a scraper. I was taught to use bowl gouges and I continue to use them, but I have watched numerous videos by Reed Gray where he uses a scraper to take bowls from rough out to final, and the surfaces look every bit as good as mine from a gouge. (That may say more about my gouge technique that I would like, but that's life.)

    Further, many big name turners suggest that the final pass on a bowl can be done with a scraper to get the "steps" out that may have been left by a gouge. I don't believe you would argue that they are "butchering" the wood.

    Finally, as a newbie, I believe that a very large part of what is driving new turners to scrapers and carbide tools is the fact that if you put 10 "expert" turners in a room to discuss what tools to use, what angles to sharpen them to, what steel they should be made of, how to sharpen them, etc ad nauseum, you will get 2 dozen expert opinions. Each expert has his/her own opinion. Many of them sell the tools and sharpening systems they contend are the best. Is it any wonder that newbies (like me) frequently give up and go with the simplest and many times cheapest way to make something round?

    I understand and accept that there is no one right way to do pretty much anything, certainly including wood turning. However, the shear volume of frequently completely contradictory "expert" opinions should not cause anyone to be surprised when people wanting to try their hand at turning gravitate to scrapers and carbide tools.

    Finally, and then I'll step down from my soapbox, you say in your opening post that you teach the "established rules". Again, with respect, I suggest that there are no such things. You may teach to the "established rules" that you were taught. However, I have made a point to read books, watch videos, and take seminars from established turners. (I'm not talking about any guy with a video camera and a youtube account.) My study as shown me that there are no "established rules". (Other than, perhaps, "ride the bevel" and even that one is not sacrosanct.)

    I'm done. I sincerely hope that I have not offended those reading this, but I wanted to get the views of at least one newbie into this discussion.
     
  7. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Everyone has a different experience set and any statement about tool effectiveness should be in context with the objects and wood being turned.

    For me, the best tool for turning natural edge bowls from domestic hardwoods is a side ground bowl gouge. I’ve used the a round nose scraper, traditional, Ellsworth, Michelson, O’Neil grinds and prefer the Ellsworth, but got acceptable results with the other side grinds. On problem woods I usually try the Michelson - sometimes it will cut better and sometimes worse. On some figured wood the gouge give me tiny tear out on the inside bottom that I clean up with a round nose scraper.

    Those who recommend another tool for NE bowls mostly fall into 3 categories.
    1. Have a physical limitation that makes another tool work better for them.
    2. Really never learned to use the side ground gouge well.
    3. Never saw a skilled turned use the side ground gouge.

    I’d be extremely interested in hearing from anyone who has seen David Ellsworth turn a Natural Edge bowl and can do as well or better using a tool other than a side ground gouge.

    Perhaps the bottom line is that whatever tool is working best for you is the one you should use. However I would suggest that if given the opportunity to learn to use the sideground gouge well it would like be life changing for your turning if you turn green domestic hardwoods.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018 at 11:28 AM
    George Guadiane likes this.
  8. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    Do any of you use tools with the type inserts Hunter uses, but instead of slanting the insert in its pocket it's flat?

    These type of inserts are called "high positive", usually used for soft materials like aluminum and plastic cutting.

    The Hunter inserts are round giving a relatively large contact area being cut. The ones i use are 35 degree diamond shape so the actual cutting area is small.

    I was told by a maker of turning tools the chance of getting a catch is too great with what I'm describing although I haven't had problems. AFAIK, nobody makes these commercially. I do see 35 degree carbide scrapers where a high positive insert could be substituted.
     
  9. George Guadiane

    George Guadiane

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    Gary, this will be my last post on the matter (unless someone says something bad about my mamma).
    Like you, my original "objection as to the use of the word "butcher." I use all kinds of tools - well, except the skew which I just cannot seem to get the hang of - I'm still learning, still trying new things, still improving my skill set and ability.
    What got my back up was the level of "authority" and disdain around scrapers. It felt insulting and when, from personal experience, I can tell you that, at times, under certain circumstances (FOR ME - and some others I know personally) can work better.
    I'm glad to have found a kindred spirit on this but advise, that like me AND Emiliano you let it go.
     
  10. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    I use what I feel is best for the job. I'm not tied to any particular tool. Some projects are such that a couple of matches are the solution.
     
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  11. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    And, now, we're all going to let it go. Lights out.
     
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